paulludvig said:

It's interesting how diverse his fan base is. Some want the pop star, some want the artist.

I'm not sure that's a fair statement. Many of us here have been Prince fans since For You or Prince. We get the whole picture. We've been there through "1999" and "Sexuality", through "Raspberry Beret" and "Lemon Crush". We know the outtakes, the bootlegs, everything. Even MJ had his "WTF" moments with his fans. So has Madonna, Springsteen, Bowie - the big ones that have been around for a long time. That was one of those eras for Prince, IMO.

It's actually pretty dismissive to say Prince was just a pop star and not an artist through all those records before 2001. I mean, if you can listen to "Sometimes It Snows In April" or "3 Chains O' Gold" and not see the artistry - I don't know what to say. Some folks just don't like quasi-jazz shit; sometimes it just doesn't land right, despite the artist. Frankly, I'd love to hear The Rainbow Children without vocals. And no one is passing out N.E.W.S. or Xpectation as Christmas gifts. Not if they wanna get invited back next year.

TrivialPursuit said:

paulludvig said:

steakfinger said:

Hell no, I wasn't disappointed. That stuff was mostly weak as hell. Rainbow Children had a lot of good musical moments, but the lyrical content and the guitar work were both ignorant. His intrumental music is typically VERY boring with few exceptions. I can understand how many non-musicians find it exciting that their pop idol was doing something they don't normally listen to, but it wasn't very good. At all. It's like fans of Billy Joel feeling excited that he released an album of "classical music" he wrote. It wasn't good when Billy Joel did it and it wasn't any good when Prince did it. If Prince had released that stuff under a different name no one here would have ever heard of it. It's his name and personality - his brand - that has people here willing to listen to something like that. I suppose that might be an accomplishment, but it certainly wasn't a musical accomplishment. I appreciate his ambition and I truly do like that he tried, but he wasn't a jazz musician and he wasn't as experimental as he liked to think. There are people in Denton, TX who you will NEVER hear about doing stuff that makes Prince's instrumental work sound childish.

The guitar work was ignorant?

Let's not let this question get lost on the last page - what the heck does "ignorant" guitar work mean?

There are albums of Prince's that I may not get into as much, but I was never disappointed in any direction P went. In fact, from early on, one of my favorite things about him was that he could be chameleonesque with his sound, both music and voice. I never was a big fan of live jazzy Prince, but I think the jazzier elements are oversold when talking about The Rainbow Children. It's one of my favorite latter day records from P, and I think he did a great job of melding rock, new age, 70s soul, and jazz for TRC. And talking about 3121 as some sort of departure? Sheeeeit, the title track would fit nicely on some Rainbow Children .

I've been listening to Xpectation a bit, over the last couple of days. It's a gem. Personally, yes. I would have loved Prince to have released a few more recordings along this vein....as well as everything else he did!

jaawwnn said:

Yeah, he didn't exactly turn into Throbbing Gristle.

is that a metaphor for an organ???

he went back and forth with the "pop" thing

TrivialPursuit said:

paulludvig said:

It's interesting how diverse his fan base is. Some want the pop star, some want the artist.

I'm not sure that's a fair statement. Many of us here have been Prince fans since For You or Prince. We get the whole picture. We've been there through "1999" and "Sexuality", through "Raspberry Beret" and "Lemon Crush". We know the outtakes, the bootlegs, everything. Even MJ had his "WTF" moments with his fans. So has Madonna, Springsteen, Bowie - the big ones that have been around for a long time. That was one of those eras for Prince, IMO.

It's actually pretty dismissive to say Prince was just a pop star and not an artist through all those records before 2001. I mean, if you can listen to "Sometimes It Snows In April" or "3 Chains O' Gold" and not see the artistry - I don't know what to say. Some folks just don't like quasi-jazz shit; sometimes it just doesn't land right, despite the artist. Frankly, I'd love to hear The Rainbow Children without vocals. And no one is passing out N.E.W.S. or Xpectation as Christmas gifts. Not if they wanna get invited back next year.

Thanks. I don't think that's a fair comment either. Not caring for those "avant garde" jazz instrumental offerings doesn't mean I, as a listener, want to hear Kiss, 1999 or Seven all the time. MANY of my favorite Prince tracks are buried treasures, outtakes and WAY more "experimental" than anything on NEWS or Xpectation. "Hallucination Rain" comes to mind as a track that not many like but I find fascinating. A lot of the stuff on "The Truth" fits the bill too just off the top of my head.

Just because something is instrumental jazz with atypical song structures doesn't mean it's more "artistic". And I'm not huge on jazz to start with. Or, for that matter, heavily enamoured with many of his most popular songs and hits. I just found those albums boring and not what I look for from Prince. I'm more of a funk/guitar lover and a big fan of his experimental and clever production heavy work.

TwiliteKid said:

paulludvig said:

steakfinger said: The guitar work was ignorant?

Let's not let this question get lost on the last page - what the heck does "ignorant" guitar work mean?

This is going to be a long one. I am a multi-instrumentalist, but I am a guitar player first and foremost. I've been playing guitar for 30 years. I am better than good. I am not saying I am better than anyone in particular, but I can absolutely tell when someone is phoning it in. Prince is known for working fast and loose in the studio. Maybe that's why he just pooped out whatever in the studio in his later days. When you strive to get a song recorded as quickly as you can, something is likely to suffer unless you're constantly working on your playing. \Prince said himself that he no longer practices the guitar, he just plays. If you play enought that is better than any practice, but you've got to have time no matter how sharp your mind is. Muscle memory isn't a set it and forget it thing. If you listen to the lead guitar work on the title track to Rainbow Children you'll hear a mess buried in ring modulator, a Boss pedal creating a lower octave, and wah-wah pedal obscuring the slop. Whether or not you like WHAT someone plays is subjective. HOW someone plays is easier to be objective about. Prince lost something as a lead guitar player around the time of Emacipation and I've heard very few redeeming things coming from the studio. Live he usually kicks ass. The Montreux Jazz Festival shows feature some pretty weak guitar. The George Harrison tune at the RNR HOF is a noteable example of him RULING live in later days. Now when I say he's phoning it in I'm comparing him to himself, not me or anyone else. He maintained and improved his bass guitar skills and vocal skills through the years. His piano playing became less technical, but the musical ideas were much improved and surprising in the best way. His lead guitar playing declined sharply, however, both in ideas and execution. His clean tone rhythm guitar skills have always been flawless, though. Always tight. His drumming SHARPLY declined following Parade. Again, I'm comparing him only to previous versions of himself. I'm not claiming to know the reasons. It could have been any number of things. Perhaps hand pain, perhaps boredom. Perhaps he was focused on other projects/instruments/business/spiritual biz. Who's to say? Calling his guitar playing ignorant is hyperbole. Playing cannot be ignorant, only the player. Prince was not ignorant when it came to music. Nearly everything else? That's harder to say.

I misunderstood the OP's point. I thought songs like WJ and BS were semi vante garde type of music. I do not think that TRC, NEWS, Xpectation etc were avanate garde s the OP means. I think songs like Beautiful Strange and Wasted kisses stand out because they were not like the traditional music from TRC, NEWS etc. Having said that, I am glad he went into phases like NEWS, CNOTE, and TRC though. He didnt STAY there so its nice to have some eras that include jazz type forays. It was so gown up compared to that vulgar immature shit from most of the 90's.

paulludvig said:

TrivialPursuit said:

if you can listen to "Sometimes It Snows In April" or "3 Chains O' Gold" and not see the artistry - I don't know what to say.

I'm not sure I count 3 Chains and Sometimes it Snows as artistic high points (though Sometimes is a good song). I guess we have different tastes and different ideaa about what is artistic.

I never said it was a high point, but make no mistake that I am pointing them out as unique and individual tracks. Frankly, everything up through Batman was an artist high point. Anything from 2001 after pales in comparison. The 90s are their own monster, and one of my favorite times.

steakfinger said:

steakfinger said:

Hell no, I wasn't disappointed. That stuff was mostly weak as hell. Rainbow Children had a lot of good musical moments, but the lyrical content and the guitar work were both ignorant. His intrumental music is typically VERY boring with few exceptions. I can understand how many non-musicians find it exciting that their pop idol was doing something they don't normally listen to, but it wasn't very good. At all. It's like fans of Billy Joel feeling excited that he released an album of "classical music" he wrote. It wasn't good when Billy Joel did it and it wasn't any good when Prince did it. If Prince had released that stuff under a different name no one here would have ever heard of it. It's his name and personality - his brand - that has people here willing to listen to something like that. I suppose that might be an accomplishment, but it certainly wasn't a musical accomplishment. I appreciate his ambition and I truly do like that he tried, but he wasn't a jazz musician and he wasn't as experimental as he liked to think. There are people in Denton, TX who you will NEVER hear about doing stuff that makes Prince's instrumental work sound childish.

.

The charm is in fact that Prince has been able to produce successful pop-songs, historic-funky *and also* give us his own vision, often simple and rough, in jazz, fusion and orchestral music. Obviously he was not master of all these musical fields, the beauty arises in recognizing his way of making music, indeed, his desire to make music in every possible field, with arrogance and passion. Sometimes even with excellent results, such as East, Xpedition, Osaka, Octopus Hearth and others.

BartVanHemelen said:

BlueShakooo said:

BartVanHemelen said:

So a bland jazz/rock/funk mélange is "avant garde"? Pur-lease. You lot need to pick up albums by John Zorn, Terry Riley, Frank Zappa, John Cage, Ornette Coleman, Glenn Branca, Boredoms, etc.

jaawwnn said:

OperatingThetan said:

MattyJam said:

MattyJam said:

MattyJam said:

BlueShakooo said:

BartVanHemelen said:

CO-sign.

MattyJam said:

BlueShakooo said:

BartVanHemelen said:

I notice that "Ability to create and/or play music" isn't anywhere in that brain, LOL.

When Prince released the slow version of "I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man", our resident Head Music Snob pooped all over Prince's solo. So I asked him to post HIS performance of what should have been played that would have been better than what Prince played.

You can probably still hear those crickets, and they've been chirping for four or five years now.

MattyJam said:

Albums like The Rainbow Children, One Nite Alone, NEWS and Xpectation were widely seen by many fans as more respectable and admirable works, as opposed to his late 90s releases, which were accused of chasing trends and looking desperate for a hit.

And of course, the brilliant ONA tour is widely celebrated on the org for being one of his best tours.

So how did you feel when he hit with Musicology/3121/Planet Earth etc and returned to a more mainstream approach? Were you disappointed he didn't disappear further down the rabbit hole of weird, experimental, jazzy concept albums?

Also, do you think he would've been perceived any differently today had he not returned to the mainstream, releasing more commercial music and playing greatest hits tours and the Superbowl? Suppose he continued down the path of TRC and ONA... would he be more respected by serious muso types but less revered by the public? [Edited 12/16/18 10:37am]

Short answer - I liked the songs that had a beat and you could dance too better than I liked the avant garde stuff.

Longer answer - "Musicology" was a planned event centered around Prince's upcoming induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. So it had to be a pop album. The Musicology tour was so financially successful that it's not surprising Prince decided to keep that flame alive with 3121 and Planet Earth and, frankly, almost everything else. I think "Hit and Run Phase 2" is the most pop-centered album he had done since "Purple Rain".

Had Prince continued on the avant garde path, I don't think he'd have had the impact on society that he actually had. But the path he chose to take is one, in my opinion, that created the kind of legacy and body of work that will ensure Prince's music is going to be in the mainstream for a long, long time.

The Rainbow Children period especially... YES!!

MattyJam said:

TrivialPursuit said:

paulludvig said:

It's interesting how diverse his fan base is. Some want the pop star, some want the artist.

I'm not sure that's a fair statement. Many of us here have been Prince fans since For You or Prince. We get the whole picture. We've been there through "1999" and "Sexuality", through "Raspberry Beret" and "Lemon Crush". We know the outtakes, the bootlegs, everything. Even MJ had his "WTF" moments with his fans. So has Madonna, Springsteen, Bowie - the big ones that have been around for a long time. That was one of those eras for Prince, IMO.

It's actually pretty dismissive to say Prince was just a pop star and not an artist through all those records before 2001. I mean, if you can listen to "Sometimes It Snows In April" or "3 Chains O' Gold" and not see the artistry - I don't know what to say. Some folks just don't like quasi-jazz shit; sometimes it just doesn't land right, despite the artist. Frankly, I'd love to hear The Rainbow Children without vocals. And no one is passing out N.E.W.S. or Xpectation as Christmas gifts. Not if they wanna get invited back next year.

True

some people think 'Pop Star' is someone with no talent, that just dances around singing songs they didn't write. Pop Star is too me is Popular... And yes I wanted Prince to be a Popular Artist