Spanky said:

Listen to "Jukebox with a Heartbeat". I think Prince was telling us he knew how to get a hit-- it wasn't just the music because he wrote pop all the way to the end. He was trying to tell us, his fans, that he knew there was a game to play in order get a hit on radio and he was NOT willing to play it.

.

Always this conspiracy BS. Yeah, at a time when nobodies scored big time with songs they recorded in their bedrooms, a multi-millionaire pop artist is blocked from having a hit by major corporations. Sure.

.

Explain me this: why do artists cover plenty of Prince's 1980s output, including B-sides, yet virtually nothing he released post-WBR gets such a treatment? Nobody cares about those songs because they're unremarkable. Look at how fast Universal wanted out of their deal with the estate when they realised that it only covered the post-WBR era.

.

Over and over again people desperately try to pimp his post WBR-output as "just as great", and it simply isn't. It belongs in the "fan only" bucket, and 99.9% of it isn't worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as his 1980s output.

rdhull said:

No WB, no industry aided hits, access, marketing etc.

.

Emancipation: EMI.

Newpower Soul: BMG (in Europe).

Rave: Arista.

.

All major labels.

.

I recall an interview with a guy from BMG in late 1998 who talked about how Prince toured Europe for NPS in the Summer and it didn't have any significant impact on its sales. Imagine that: an artist touring an album and failing to impact its sales. Ghee, I wonder what the issue was... Could it be that it was a shitty album? That people had gotten sick of buying mediocre tripe?

.

Rave got promoted via interviews and TV performances, and again was a flop. Ghee, I wonder why.

.

Emancipation was offered post-1996 for next to nothing in great quantities to record shops, and they couldn't give it away. Ghee, I wonder why.

BartVanHemelen said:

rdhull said:

No WB, no industry aided hits, access, marketing etc.

.

Emancipation: EMI.

Newpower Soul: BMG (in Europe).

Rave: Arista.

.

All major labels.

.

I recall an interview with a guy from BMG in late 1998 who talked about how Prince toured Europe for NPS in the Summer and it didn't have any significant impact on its sales. Imagine that: an artist touring an album and failing to impact its sales. Ghee, I wonder what the issue was... Could it be that it was a shitty album? That people had gotten sick of buying mediocre tripe?

.

Rave got promoted via interviews and TV performances, and again was a flop. Ghee, I wonder why.

.

Emancipation was offered post-1996 for next to nothing in great quantities to record shops, and they couldn't give it away. Ghee, I wonder why.

But they're not shitty albums.

Emancipation was promoted as "the album he was born to make" and it wasn't, but it's not shitty, just too long and too samey. Triple albums almost never do great numbers.

NPS is a very genre specific album and probably incorrectly promoted as a new Prince album. What Prince wanted to do and what people wanted from him were clearly at odds. I think time has made it look good though, at least it's not Prince trying to do a britpop album or something.

Rave, well... i'll give you Rave.

BartVanHemelen said:

rdhull said:

No WB, no industry aided hits, access, marketing etc.

.

Emancipation: EMI.

Newpower Soul: BMG (in Europe).

Rave: Arista.

.

All major labels.

.

I recall an interview with a guy from BMG in late 1998 who talked about how Prince toured Europe for NPS in the Summer and it didn't have any significant impact on its sales. Imagine that: an artist touring an album and failing to impact its sales. Ghee, I wonder what the issue was... Could it be that it was a shitty album? That people had gotten sick of buying mediocre tripe?

.

Rave got promoted via interviews and TV performances, and again was a flop. Ghee, I wonder why.

.

Emancipation was offered post-1996 for next to nothing in great quantities to record shops, and they couldn't give it away. Ghee, I wonder why.

What promotion did Rave get in the US? No tv appearances, a music video released too late.

BartVanHemelen said:

Your criticism of his post-1980’s music is always ridiculous and LAZY. There are plenty of gems, great art and genius. Commercial success does not necessarily translate to great art. Britney has sold billions.

His 1980-1988 music ranks among the most critically fertile period of any musician EVER. Of course, any music compared to this is unfair. That type of creativity is not sustainable for any artist for 35+ years...name ONE artist who has done so! This doesn’t mean that anything after sucks.

That being said, his 1990-2016 work has tons of musical pleasures, experiments and jams for those willing to look.

jdcxc said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Always this conspiracy BS. Yeah, at a time when nobodies scored big time with songs they recorded in their bedrooms, a multi-millionaire pop artist is blocked from having a hit by major corporations. Sure.

.

Explain me this: why do artists cover plenty of Prince's 1980s output, including B-sides, yet virtually nothing he released post-WBR gets such a treatment? Nobody cares about those songs because they're unremarkable. Look at how fast Universal wanted out of their deal with the estate when they realised that it only covered the post-WBR era.

.

Over and over again people desperately try to pimp his post WBR-output as "just as great", and it simply isn't. It belongs in the "fan only" bucket, and 99.9% of it isn't worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as his 1980s output.

Your criticism of his post-1980’s music is always ridiculous and LAZY. There are plenty of gems, great art and genius. Commercial success does not necessarily translate to great art. Britney has sold billions. His 1980-1988 music ranks among the most critically fertile period of any musician EVER. Of course, any music compared to this is unfair. That type of creativity is not sustainable for any artist for 35+ years...name ONE artist who has done so! This doesn’t mean that anything after sucks. That being said, his 1990-2016 work has tons of musical pleasures, experiments and jams for those willing to look.

True but that's still no excuse for releasing albums like NPS, Rave, PE, 2010 etc.

jdcxc said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Always this conspiracy BS. Yeah, at a time when nobodies scored big time with songs they recorded in their bedrooms, a multi-millionaire pop artist is blocked from having a hit by major corporations. Sure.

.

Explain me this: why do artists cover plenty of Prince's 1980s output, including B-sides, yet virtually nothing he released post-WBR gets such a treatment? Nobody cares about those songs because they're unremarkable. Look at how fast Universal wanted out of their deal with the estate when they realised that it only covered the post-WBR era.

.

Over and over again people desperately try to pimp his post WBR-output as "just as great", and it simply isn't. It belongs in the "fan only" bucket, and 99.9% of it isn't worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as his 1980s output.

Your criticism of his post-1980’s music is always ridiculous and LAZY. There are plenty of gems, great art and genius. Commercial success does not necessarily translate to great art. Britney has sold billions. His 1980-1988 music ranks among the most critically fertile period of any musician EVER. Of course, any music compared to this is unfair. That type of creativity is not sustainable for any artist for 35+ years...name ONE artist who has done so! This doesn’t mean that anything after sucks. That being said, his 1990-2016 work has tons of musical pleasures, experiments and jams for those willing to look.

Add to this something people rarely talk about: The fact that, in "Prince's 80's heyday", there were actually very soft/slow sales for some of his most beloved albums. For all the comparisons to Michael Jackson and Madonna, Prince wasn't selling like them. Must be because of "shitty music."

-

Take Parade for example: Think about it, Parade was HEAVILY promoted on MTV, had a #1 single, but it's overall album sales were shockingly low for Prince album only 1-2 years removed Purple Rain.

-

Now, Bart, are these low album sales because Parade was a shitty album? According to your logic, that has to be it, right?

[Edited 11/28/18 9:48am]

skywalker said:

Exactly. Not to mention SOTT, which appears on most critic’s Best EVER album lists. It sold shockingly low considering it’s strength. Prince cannot be evaluated by sales. He was too unpredictable, ahead of his time and quixotic. Purple Rain spoiled people like Bart, who evaluate his creative output by sales. It is actually rare for the greatest musicians to have all the stars aligned to actually sell the most product.

Most fans can point to dozens of brilliant Prince songs and several outstanding albums post-1988.

BartVanHemelen said:

Spanky said:

Listen to "Jukebox with a Heartbeat". I think Prince was telling us he knew how to get a hit-- it wasn't just the music because he wrote pop all the way to the end. He was trying to tell us, his fans, that he knew there was a game to play in order get a hit on radio and he was NOT willing to play it.

.

Always this conspiracy BS. Yeah, at a time when nobodies scored big time with songs they recorded in their bedrooms, a multi-millionaire pop artist is blocked from having a hit by major corporations. Sure.

.

Explain me this: why do artists cover plenty of Prince's 1980s output, including B-sides, yet virtually nothing he released post-WBR gets such a treatment? Nobody cares about those songs because they're unremarkable. Look at how fast Universal wanted out of their deal with the estate when they realised that it only covered the post-WBR era.

.

Over and over again people desperately try to pimp his post WBR-output as "just as great", and it simply isn't. It belongs in the "fan only" bucket, and 99.9% of it isn't worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as his 1980s output.

You reveal yourself here and the narrative you have constructed of Prince's career. No one would argue that his creative peak was in the 80s, but to summarily dismiss ALL his latter work is either lazy, self-deceptive or trolling.

leecaldon said:

You reveal yourself here and the narrative you have constructed of Prince's career. No one would argue that his creative peak was in the 80s, but to summarily dismiss ALL his latter work is either lazy, self-deceptive or trolling.

You're statement is wrong about "No one." I personally prefer the 90's period with

leecaldon said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Always this conspiracy BS. Yeah, at a time when nobodies scored big time with songs they recorded in their bedrooms, a multi-millionaire pop artist is blocked from having a hit by major corporations. Sure.

.

Explain me this: why do artists cover plenty of Prince's 1980s output, including B-sides, yet virtually nothing he released post-WBR gets such a treatment? Nobody cares about those songs because they're unremarkable. Look at how fast Universal wanted out of their deal with the estate when they realised that it only covered the post-WBR era.

.

Over and over again people desperately try to pimp his post WBR-output as "just as great", and it simply isn't. It belongs in the "fan only" bucket, and 99.9% of it isn't worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as his 1980s output.

You reveal yourself here and the narrative you have constructed of Prince's career. No one would argue that his creative peak was in the 80s, but to summarily dismiss ALL his latter work is either lazy, self-deceptive or trolling.

barts trippin....his output post 80's was doubled ..so half of that is "just as great"

sro100 said:

leecaldon said:

You reveal yourself here and the narrative you have constructed of Prince's career. No one would argue that his creative peak was in the 80s, but to summarily dismiss ALL his latter work is either lazy, self-deceptive or trolling.

You're statement is wrong about "No one." I personally prefer the 90's period with

You can certainly prefer his post-80s work (and I probably listen to it more) but it's difficult to make an argument that he was more creative - his zeitgeist period was certainly then. He wasn't setting trends and trailblazing in the 90s, however good the music was.

leecaldon said:

His 1980-1988 run was the greatest in popular music history imho. Stevie Wonder (1970-1976) came close. Kinda hard to top that.

Can anyone name a more creative run? Beatles, Sly, James Brown?

jdcxc said:

leecaldon said:

You can certainly prefer his post-80s work (and I probably listen to it more) but it's difficult to make an argument that he was more creative - his zeitgeist period was certainly then. He wasn't setting trends and trailblazing in the 90s, however good the music was.

His 1980-1988 run was the greatest in popular music history imho. Stevie Wonder (1970-1976) came close. Kinda hard to top that. Can anyone name a more creative run? Beatles, Sly, James Brown?

Beatles, certainly. Bowie had a run of albums in the 70s.

leecaldon said:

And don’t forget Prince’s side projects (Time, Sheila, Madhouse, Jill Jones) and b-sides during this run!

skywalker said:

jdcxc said:

BartVanHemelen said: Your criticism of his post-1980’s music is always ridiculous and LAZY. There are plenty of gems, great art and genius. Commercial success does not necessarily translate to great art. Britney has sold billions. His 1980-1988 music ranks among the most critically fertile period of any musician EVER. Of course, any music compared to this is unfair. That type of creativity is not sustainable for any artist for 35+ years...name ONE artist who has done so! This doesn’t mean that anything after sucks. That being said, his 1990-2016 work has tons of musical pleasures, experiments and jams for those willing to look.

Add to this something people rarely talk about: The fact that, in "Prince's 80's heyday", there were actually very soft/slow sales for some of his most beloved albums. For all the comparisons to Michael Jackson and Madonna, Prince wasn't selling like them. Must be because of "shitty music."

-

Take Parade for example: Think about it, Parade was HEAVILY promoted on MTV, had a #1 single, but it's overall album sales were shockingly low for Prince album only 1-2 years removed Purple Rain.

-

Now, Bart, are these low album sales because Parade was a shitty album? According to your logic, that has to be it, right?

[Edited 11/28/18 9:48am]

I don't remember MTV playing any of the videos from Parade heavily other than Kiss. I remember Prince videos mostly from BET & VH1. Honestley, I always thought there was some kind feud between Prince & MTV until he performed Sign O' The Times at the awards. I do remember them promoting the movie but not the videos. I think if Prince showed up & did some on MTV (mabybe hosting something, interviews or concerts). Video killed the radio star

BEAUGARDE said:

skywalker said:

Add to this something people rarely talk about: The fact that, in "Prince's 80's heyday", there were actually very soft/slow sales for some of his most beloved albums. For all the comparisons to Michael Jackson and Madonna, Prince wasn't selling like them. Must be because of "shitty music."

-

Take Parade for example: Think about it, Parade was HEAVILY promoted on MTV, had a #1 single, but it's overall album sales were shockingly low for Prince album only 1-2 years removed Purple Rain.

-

Now, Bart, are these low album sales because Parade was a shitty album? According to your logic, that has to be it, right?

[Edited 11/28/18 9:48am]

I don't remember MTV playing any of the videos from Parade heavily other than Kiss. I remember Prince videos mostly from BET & VH1. Honestley, I always thought there was some kind feud between Prince & MTV until he performed Sign O' The Times at the awards. I do remember them promoting the movie but not the videos. I think if Prince showed up & did some on MTV (mabybe hosting something, interviews or concerts). Video killed the radio star

Do you remember the Under The Cherry Moon contest/special/premiere concert from Sheridan, Wyoming? They promoted the entire project/movie/album for months....

jdcxc said:

leecaldon said:

You can certainly prefer his post-80s work (and I probably listen to it more) but it's difficult to make an argument that he was more creative - his zeitgeist period was certainly then. He wasn't setting trends and trailblazing in the 90s, however good the music was.

His 1980-1988 run was the greatest in popular music history imho. Stevie Wonder (1970-1976) came close. Kinda hard to top that. Can anyone name a more creative run? Beatles, Sly, James Brown?

zeppelin, sabbath, queen

jdcxc said:

leecaldon said:

You can certainly prefer his post-80s work (and I probably listen to it more) but it's difficult to make an argument that he was more creative - his zeitgeist period was certainly then. He wasn't setting trends and trailblazing in the 90s, however good the music was.

His 1980-1988 run was the greatest in popular music history imho. Stevie Wonder (1970-1976) came close. Kinda hard to top that. Can anyone name a more creative run? Beatles, Sly, James Brown?

"Stevie Wonder came close"..stop embarrassing yourself.

rdhull said:

Explain yourself fool

jdcxc said:

His 1980-1988 run was the greatest in popular music history imho. Stevie Wonder (1970-1976) came close. Kinda hard to top that. Can anyone name a more creative run? Beatles, Sly, James Brown?

The problem with this kind of quote is that there is no way to measure "creative." I could argue that The Beatles were more "creative" in their run, but I cannot name a dancefloor/funk jam that they ever did. I cannot think of a rock power ballad that Stevie or James did. See what I mean?

-

Prince's greatest strength is likely his ability to show us how false music genres actually are. Music is music. It's we mere mortals that to categorize everything and put them into little boxes. When it comes to that, I cannot think of anyone in music that did it better than Prince. Including genre benders like David Bowie and Queen. They didn't "cross over" like Prince did.

[Edited 11/30/18 7:52am]

skywalker said:

It is obviously highly subjective, but that is what music criticism is about. I believe most music journalists would put Prince’s creative peak among the best ever. During that period, he put out 4 of the greatest rock albums ever (per Rolling Stone, Spin, Village Voice, etc.). His concerts were groundbreaking. His side projects (Madhouse, Sheila, Time) and song giveaways were outstanding (The Time- one of the best funk bands ever). He was in a zone. He was prolific. He was a one man creative machine. Who compares?

leecaldon said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Emancipation: EMI.

Newpower Soul: BMG (in Europe).

Rave: Arista.

.

All major labels.

.

I recall an interview with a guy from BMG in late 1998 who talked about how Prince toured Europe for NPS in the Summer and it didn't have any significant impact on its sales. Imagine that: an artist touring an album and failing to impact its sales. Ghee, I wonder what the issue was... Could it be that it was a shitty album? That people had gotten sick of buying mediocre tripe?

.

Rave got promoted via interviews and TV performances, and again was a flop. Ghee, I wonder why.

.

Emancipation was offered post-1996 for next to nothing in great quantities to record shops, and they couldn't give it away. Ghee, I wonder why.

What promotion did Rave get in the US? No tv appearances, a music video released too late.

Both Raves were heavily promoted - heck, he sat on Larry King's talk show for the second one, TRL (ugghhh, that one was tough to watch), MTV interview with Kurt Loder, NYC press conference right after he went back to using "Prince". Lots of printed interviews too. Promotion and PR started well before the first version was released.

*

The biggest issue at this time was that Prince was so disconnected from the current music scene, and he was much older. He was trying to appeal to both the younger R&B and Pop audiences at that time, but it did not work. He brought in Sheryl Crow, Gwen Stefani, Ani DeFranco, etc for the Rave album, and it still did not work. His extreme religious conversion was also alienating many listeners. Many of his interviews turned to his current religious views, and that did not appeal to the young crowd.

*

By Musicology, Prince was focused on getting a radio-friendly hit played (title track), and he was everywhere promoting that album. The combination of his appearance on the R&RHOF, TV interviews, and setup of the concerts with playing old hits and new songs along with the acoustic set, resulted in the sell-out shows. He was appealing to old and new fans.

*

Here is the link to a Sonicnet interview - March 1999 and a USA Today interview - April 1999. These were done 6 months prior to the first Rave album's release.

*

https://sites.google.com/site/prninterviews/home/sonicnet-3-march-1999

*

https://sites.google.com/site/prninterviews/home/usa-today-13-april-1999

violetcrush said:

leecaldon said:

What promotion did Rave get in the US? No tv appearances, a music video released too late.

The biggest issue at this time was that Prince was so disconnected from the current music scene, and he was much older. He was trying to appeal to both the younger R&B and Pop audiences at that time, but it did not work. He brought in Sheryl Crow, Gwen Stefani, Ani DeFranco, etc for the Rave album, and it still did not work. His extreme religious conversion was also alienating many listeners. Many of his interviews turned to his current religious views, and that did not appeal to the young crowd.

Sting, Cher, John Mellencamp, and Santanna all had BIG hits during this era. They were a lot more "out of touch" than Prince was. The difference is this: They all let other people run things and have control. They relinquished control and embraced "the machine." Thus, they had big commerical success. Prince was NEVER going to acquiesce in this way. Rob Thomas was not about to do the heavy lifting on a song.

-

Again, hit songs ARE NOT based on quality, merit, or creativity, or even audience tastes. They are mostly based on timing/promotion and $$$.

[Edited 11/30/18 8:33am]

skywalker said:

BEAUGARDE said:

I don't remember MTV playing any of the videos from Parade heavily other than Kiss. I remember Prince videos mostly from BET & VH1. Honestley, I always thought there was some kind feud between Prince & MTV until he performed Sign O' The Times at the awards. I do remember them promoting the movie but not the videos. I think if Prince showed up & did some on MTV (mabybe hosting something, interviews or concerts). Video killed the radio star

Do you remember the Under The Cherry Moon contest/special/premiere concert from Sheridan, Wyoming? They promoted the entire project/movie/album for months....

Yes, and the Girls and Boys and Mountains videos were played quite a bit on MTV that Summer...

skywalker said:

violetcrush said:

The biggest issue at this time was that Prince was so disconnected from the current music scene, and he was much older. He was trying to appeal to both the younger R&B and Pop audiences at that time, but it did not work. He brought in Sheryl Crow, Gwen Stefani, Ani DeFranco, etc for the Rave album, and it still did not work. His extreme religious conversion was also alienating many listeners. Many of his interviews turned to his current religious views, and that did not appeal to the young crowd.

Sting, Cher, John Mellencamp, and Santanna all had BIG hits during this era. They were a lot more "out of touch" than Prince was. The difference is this: They all let other people run things and have control. They relinquished control and embraced "the machine." Thus, they had big commerical success. Prince was NEVER going to acquiesce in this way. Rob Thomas was not about to do the heavy lifting on a song.

-

Again, hit songs ARE NOT based on quality, merit, or creativity, or even audience tastes. They are mostly based on timing/promotion and $$$.

[Edited 11/30/18 8:33am]

Maybe John Mellencamp and Santana were a bit "out of touch", but certainly not Sting. He always had a huge following. Also, none of them had changed their name or were standoff-ish toward the media during the 90's that I can recall. Santana became huge during that time because he collaborated with many of the young relevant musicians of that period - Dave Matthews, Rob Thomas, Lauryn Hill, etc. Prince tried to do the same thing, but it did not work for him. The songs on Supernatural were better songs. "Smooth" was an instant hit.

*

I do agree that Prince was not a good marketer/promoter of his music he had innovative ideas but could not successfully implement them. However, I disagree that quality, merit, and creativity are not important. The artists mentioned above have never compromised those things.

violetcrush said:

Maybe John Mellencamp and Santana were a bit "out of touch", but certainly not Sting. He always had a huge following. Also, none of them had changed their name or were standoff-ish toward the media during the 90's that I can recall. Santana became huge during that time because he collaborated with many of the young relevant musicians of that period - Dave Matthews, Rob Thomas, Lauryn Hill, etc. Prince tried to do the same thing, but it did not work for him. The songs on Supernatural were better songs. "Smooth" was an instant hit.

*

I do agree that Prince was not a good marketer/promoter of his music he had innovative ideas but could not successfully implement them. However, I disagree that quality, merit, and creativity are not important. The artists mentioned above have never compromised those things.

I was not trying to suggest that Sting, etc. compromised over quality, merit, and creativity (well, maybe Cher). I was simply stating that they are much more willing to let others take control of the process of making/promoting an album. Meaning, they were willing to jump through the hoops needed to get a hit album/song. Sting and Santana had outside musicians, writers, producers, and management that was assisting/collaborating/steering the ship. Prince was not playing ball with others (certainly not record companies) in the way these others were. Thus, he negated his own commerical success.

-

Face it, there is a reason that Prince suffered commercially after leaving WB. It's not because there was a drop off in music quality. Diamonds and Pearls is one of his best selling albums and that has the song "Jughead" on it.

-

Sure, he had dealings with major labels after WB, but they didn't really invest in each other. Prince didn't trust them or play nice. Therefore, he was shooting himself in the high-heeled foot in terms of sales/promotion/etc....all the things needed to make a song or album a "Hit".

-

Why do you think Prince's best selling albums are his best promoted? Again if music sales were based on quality, Sign O' The TImes would have been a monster seller.

[Edited 11/30/18 10:52am]

Well every artist always wants to reach the widest audience, but he certainly succeeded in becoming mainstream in the 2000’s- through the end of his life. With AMAZING performance in Coachella, The Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame, The Super Bowl and so many more. I always love watching his erformance of “Don’t Play Me” AT the Webby Awards.

It was an amazing renaissance and I am so happy for his legacy that he didn’t end up a washed up artist or end up like MJ, but known as the best living live performer up until his very last day.

Ugot2shakesumthin said:

Well every artist always wants to reach the widest audience, but he certainly succeeded in becoming mainstream in the 2000’s- through the end of his life. With AMAZING performance in Coachella, The Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame, The Super Bowl and so many more. I always love watching his erformance of “Don’t Play Me” AT the Webby Awards. It was an amazing renaissance and I am so happy for his legacy that he didn’t end up a washed up artist or end up like MJ, but known as the best living live performer up until his very last day.

Agreed. Prince definitely had his "wilderness years" but they were self inflicted and (seemingly) necessary for his own growth/survival/journey. In the end...he jumped back into the mainstream and did it on his terms.

skywalker said:

Absolutely! He tore it up! He was Badass with a capital “B” till the very end. Younger artist WISHED they could live up to a fraction of Prince’s badassness.