Krystalkisses said:

Peach and Black is one of the most stunning color combinations I've ever seen. It is such a great visual. SOTT is probably my FAVORITE Prince era of his career.

I agree. So funny, because I was a Freshman in college before SOTT was released, and in the Summer of '86 I remember one of my favorite outfits was a black and white polka dot bandeau top, black mini skirt, and a peach blouse that was short in the front and longer in the back that I would wear like a jacket. It must have been a color combo in the fashion mags back then.

bonatoc said:

So, "Papa", pure fiction or not?

Oh no, I don't think that was pure fiction at all. It's entirely possible that when Prince was 4 yrs old his Father came home, tired and in a bad mood, and irrationally lashed out at little Prince for disobeying his order to stop throwing rocks at passing cars. The smacking and making him sit in a closet is also very believable, especially for that time period. Some of the other guys in his MN camp have discussed the very harsh punishments by parents back then. I don't think this happened all the time with his Dad though. However, it only takes one or two incidents like that to permanently plant itself into a little one's brain, and I'm sure there were variations of that type of punishment during his younger years.

*

Prince somewhat confirmed this during his 1999 interview with Larry King when he was asked about the difficult relationship with his Father. He stated, "well, he was a strict disciplinarian, but all Fathers were back then. It taught me right from wrong". I'm sure Prince sugar-coated his feelings in order to prevent Larry from probing for more details. He knew how to move the discussion along.

I think it's a fiction made to make a statement about child abuse. There's an actor at play in Prince's songs that can be overlooked.
No doubt he took from a personal hurtful memory to amplify the message and make it the first blues of its kind: the child abuse blues.
It's very possible the song was born from considering how many among his fans went through way harder shit than he himself experienced.
Pure fiction on my side, just a thought.

[Edited 11/10/18 13:09pm]

bonatoc said:

I think it's a fiction made to make a statement about child abuse. There's an actor at play in Prince's songs that can be overlooked.
No doubt he took from a personal hurtful memory to amplify the message and make it the first blues of its kind: the child abuse blues.
It's very possible the song was born from considering how many among his fans went through way harder shit than he himself experienced.
Pure fiction on my side, just a thought.

[Edited 11/10/18 13:09pm]

I lean toward autobiographical - mainly due to the very detailed nature of the lyric, and that Prince usually was inspired by his own experiences - not to say that he didn't write about others' experiences/situations, but most were his own. I think the last lyric, "don't abuse your kids or they'll end up like me" is quite telling. It wasn't unusual in those days for a Father, especially one who's older as Prince's was, to smack or hit his kids - either by hand or with a belt. The locking in the closet was particulary harsh, but certainly could have happened.

violetcrush said:

bonatoc said:

I think it's a fiction made to make a statement about child abuse. There's an actor at play in Prince's songs that can be overlooked.
No doubt he took from a personal hurtful memory to amplify the message and make it the first blues of its kind: the child abuse blues.
It's very possible the song was born from considering how many among his fans went through way harder shit than he himself experienced.
Pure fiction on my side, just a thought.

[Edited 11/10/18 13:09pm]

I lean toward autobiographical - mainly due to the very detailed nature of the lyric, and that Prince usually was inspired by his own experiences - not to say that he didn't write about others' experiences/situations, but most were his own. I think the last lyric, "don't abuse your kids or they'll end up like me" is quite telling. It wasn't unusual in those days for a Father, especially one who's older as Prince's was, to smack or hit his kids - either by hand or with a belt. The locking in the closet was particulary harsh, but certainly could have happened.

Yes, but here's precisely where I think it's fiction.
End up like him? A millionnaire who wakes up every day and lives from his passion?
I think, if the song is about a character and not Prince, that the character had a way bleakier future than Prince.

Don't forget that Prince plays both parts in the song, not just the child. The abusing father commits suicide.
An alternative ending is the father realising abuse self-replicates (don't abuse your kids or they'll end up like me).
He abuses his child because that's what his father did to him.

Prince never showed any sign of violence towards women or children,
and himself stated in interviews it was never THAT bad. I've been slapped too,
it's too shared a feeling to make a song about it. There is nothing that indicates
there were repeated incidents of this kind in Prince's upbringing.

In the song, not only it is pretty violent, but I think it's understated
the abuse a situation that happens again and again,
not an isolated incident.

bonatoc said:

violetcrush said:

I lean toward autobiographical - mainly due to the very detailed nature of the lyric, and that Prince usually was inspired by his own experiences - not to say that he didn't write about others' experiences/situations, but most were his own. I think the last lyric, "don't abuse your kids or they'll end up like me" is quite telling. It wasn't unusual in those days for a Father, especially one who's older as Prince's was, to smack or hit his kids - either by hand or with a belt. The locking in the closet was particulary harsh, but certainly could have happened.

Yes, but here's precisely where I think it's fiction.
End up like him? A millionnaire who wakes up every day and lives from his passion?
I think, if the song is about a character and not Prince, that the character had a way bleakier future than Prince.

Don't forget that Prince plays both parts in the song, not just the child. The abusing father commits suicide.
An alternative ending is the father realising abuse self-replicates (don't abuse your kids or they'll end up like me).
He abuses his child because that's what his father did to him.

Prince never showed any sign of violence towards women or children,
and himself stated in interviews it was never THAT bad. I've been slapped too,
it's too shared a feeling to make a song about it. There is nothing that indicates
there were repeated incidents of this kind in Prince's upbringing.

In the song, not only it is pretty violent, but I think it's understated
the abuse a situation that happens again and again,
not an isolated incident.

I think his lyric "end up like him" was coming more from an emotional/relationship issue perspective, not a financial success perspective. He was unable to have close lasting relationships with people. He did not trust people and he was reclusive.

*

So your take is that the lyric is coming from an abuser's perspective - he's describing what he's done to his son, and then says "don't abuse your children or they'll end up like me" - as in, he's now an abuser because he was abused as a child. Hmmmm, maybe. I'm still leaning toward Prince telling a version of his own story as a kid.

*

Also, remember Sacrifice Of Victor - Prince often wrote songs expressing his discontent with his life, loves, etc. Yes, he was a millionnaire pop star, but he was often lonely and not a happy person. This is what he was describing in SOV.

[Edited 11/10/18 16:46pm]

violetcrush said:

bonatoc said:

Yes, but here's precisely where I think it's fiction.
End up like him? A millionnaire who wakes up every day and lives from his passion?
I think, if the song is about a character and not Prince, that the character had a way bleakier future than Prince.

Don't forget that Prince plays both parts in the song, not just the child. The abusing father commits suicide.
An alternative ending is the father realising abuse self-replicates (don't abuse your kids or they'll end up like me).
He abuses his child because that's what his father did to him.

Prince never showed any sign of violence towards women or children,
and himself stated in interviews it was never THAT bad. I've been slapped too,
it's too shared a feeling to make a song about it. There is nothing that indicates
there were repeated incidents of this kind in Prince's upbringing.

In the song, not only it is pretty violent, but I think it's understated
the abuse a situation that happens again and again,
not an isolated incident.

I think his lyric "end up like him" was coming more from an emotional/relationship issue perspective, not a financial success perspective. He was unable to have close lasting relationships with people. He did not trust people and he was reclusive.

*

So your take is that the lyric is coming from an abuser's perspective - he's describing what he's done to his son, and then says "don't abuse your children or they'll end up like me" - as in, he's now an abuser because he was abused as a child. Hmmmm, maybe. I'm still leaning toward Prince telling a version of his own story as a kid.

*

Also, remember Sacrifice Of Victor - Prince often wrote songs expressing his discontent with his life, loves, etc. Yes, he was a millionnaire pop star, but he was often lonely and not a happy person. This is what he was describing in SOV.

[Edited 11/10/18 16:46pm]

Sacrifice Of Victor:

*

I agree, wealth has nothing to do with happiness.
But I think the song's subject would have surfaced sooner in his career had it been such a personal big deal.
It would have even surfaced in PR the movie. I'll keep "Papa" in the "listen to the story of a man I am not" category.

violetcrush said:

I always loved these side-cutout outfits. I think he wears a black one under his fluffy jacket in the "If I was your Girlfriend" video. All the better to see that waist-chain, yes?

I sure hated these, but it surely looks good on Prince!

violetcrush said:

Seahorsie said:

Krystalkisses said:

Seahorsie said:

I always loved these side-cutout outfits. I think he wears a black one under his fluffy jacket in the "If I was your Girlfriend" video. All the better to see that waist-chain, yes?

Yes i did too! Especially during Hot Thing

[Edited 11/10/18 20:16pm]

Love it!!

Guitarhero said:

Krystalkisses said:

Seahorsie said: Yes i did too! Especially during Hot Thing

[Edited 11/10/18 20:16pm]

Guitarhero said:

Krystalkisses said:

Guitarhero said:

[Edited 11/10/18 20:16pm]

Thank you!

The Hot Thing outfit above was most likely either Prince's idea or his design team. Remember, he had a full staff of clothing designers and tailors on site at PP by then. I'm sure he had input, but I also think many of his outfits were designed by the team and then either approved or denied by Prince.

*

The Peach/Black combo was Susannah's though.

bonatoc said:

I agree, wealth has nothing to do with happiness.
But I think the song's subject would have surfaced sooner in his career had it been such a personal big deal.
It would have even surfaced in PR the movie. I'll keep "Papa" in the "listen to the story of a man I am not" category.

But, he did chronicle some of the abuse in the PR film - the scene where his Father pushes him across the room. The Father screaming at and getting physical with the Mother. The drinking and the gun/attempted suicide were of course added to create a more dramatic story, but I think the other bits were more true to Prince's upbringing.

*

I'm sure his Mother and Father fought quite a bit in his early years. His Father was working a full time day job, and then playing at the Jazz/Burlesque club through the night. Lack of sleep, frustration with not having a full time career in music, and fights with his wife - I'm sure fueled by her jealousy and anger from lack of support at home - could have resulted in him "losing it" with the kids, espeically when they were being typical kids and not listening or following the rules.

Guitarhero said:

Krystalkisses said:

Seahorsie said: Yes i did too! Especially during Hot Thing

[Edited 11/10/18 20:16pm]

Thanks, GH! Makes a snowy Monday just that more BEARABLE, LOL.

violetcrush said:

margi said:

laytonian said:

margi said:

Prince wrote a letter to a young singer who sang about abuse. It was ‘Luka’ or by a singer of that name. I am not certain. A beautiful song but a very dark subject. Prince wrote how much he admired her and thanked God for her caring. At the Grammy’s she sang that song with just her guitar as melody and when she finished he jumped up and was the first to start clapping. He was dressed in a white suit with an aqua blue shirt. That told me he knew about abuse as a child.

The song is by Suzanne Vega. ABSOLUTELY! We can't forget the stepfather Hayward Baker, who was the impetus for him leaving home at 12. HE is the one who locked Prince in the room with the piano his dad left behind. Mattie chose Hayward over her son. I think both John and Hayward were unhappy, destructive men. Poor Prince, being small, would have been an easy target. The church camp leader's description of his abuse is heartbreaking. . [Edited 12/20/18 10:47am]

I still wonder how Tyka and Omarr were treated by Hayward Baker. ?

PennyPurple said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

rdhull said:

Oh come on. You know the story already.

Father appared to be emotionally abusive as hell and momma was seemed preoccupied. In a nutshell, he was product of insecure attachment which explains his relationships, work or otherwise, and power/control issues.

This is as accurate and succinct as it gets.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Mama, mama
What's this strange, strange
Mama
Mama, what's this strange, strange
Mama
Why the butterflies?

Mama, mama what's this shaking in me?
Mama, what's this crazy swirling around?
Mama, why the butterflies?

Mama, mama
Open visions in my mind, mama
Mama
Mama, what's this
Mama, what's this
Mama, mama, mama
Why the butterflies?
Why the butterflies?

Oh, oh oh, oh oh ooh

Mama, where is father?
Mama, butterflies
Mama, where is father?
Mama, where
Mama, where
Mama, where
Why the butterflies?

Mama
Where am I?
What's this strange, strange
Why the butterflies?

I think this song is about his Epileptic seizures as a young kid. I didn't realize it included the lyric "where is Father" - are we sure that is the correct line? If so, that would indicate that his Father was mostly absent, which makes sense.

Whew... this whole thread. .. I gotta go do sumn else.

I wonder what it was like to be his parents though. I mean.. he's your kid, and he's this rock star singing about his sister, and how he HIT THAT, and it was GOOD... and then he's this superstar and there is a 'semi-autobiographical' movie where they are portrayed as FIST-FIGHTING then FUCKING in the living room... to the point that the kid can see FROM OUTSIDE THE DAMN HOUSE...but in real life they are all super religious or sumn... Did they ever deny any of this shit?

I believe Tyka once said that her and Prince ran away once and nobody noticed.

eugenius said:

rdhull said:

Oh come on. You know the story already.

Father appared to be emotionally abusive as hell and momma was seemed preoccupied. In a nutshell, he was product of insecure attachment which explains his relationships, work or otherwise, and power/control issues.

This is as accurate and succinct as it gets.

Yes, I agree. "Absentee" parents who appear to not have been nurturing or comforting to their young kids. Add the typical harsher punishments of that time period and culture, plus Prince's seizures, smaller size, and quirky pesonality - and you end up with an emotionally detached man who cannot trust enough to have normal relationships.

violetcrush said:

eugenius said:

This is as accurate and succinct as it gets.

Yes, I agree. "Absentee" parents who appear to not have been nurturing or comforting to their young kids. Add the typical harsher punishments of that time period and culture, plus Prince's seizures, smaller size, and quirky pesonality - and you end up with an emotionally detached man who cannot trust enough to have normal relationships.

Just in his defense, I don't thnk he was detached; quite emotional but could best express that musically. more gurarded than detached.