Prince worked with bands throughout his life and alone throughout his life. Don't let the titles on the albums confuse you. My understanding is that on almost every album (except for maybe Exodus and a few others), there is some collaboration and some "Prince" only or Prince-mostly stuff. The only difference is degree. Even in many of his later day "collaborations", Prince still wrote the lyrics, melodies, and instructed the band on what he wanted either directly (like humming parts, playing parts for them) or indirectly like saying "come up with a solo here". Some collaborations came from rehearsals/jamming. Some collaborations were very Prince-instructed, coming in with a demo or song nearly complete and then working with band to flesh it out. Some songs he barely or didn't at all involve his bands. I think his approach didn't change as much as people think--only the degree of control he had. Morris Hayes is a wonderful soundboard and techician but even with his musical director title, he insisted that Prince pretty much was the musical director.

johnniebishop said:

What about the musical direction from Morris Hayes and his controbutions to the Gold album, the NPG Exidus albums, and I believe Come. I wonder if sometimes it takes some one or a group of people to focus the fire (Prince's creativity)?

[Edited 10/15/18 15:07pm]

SkipperLove said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

For example Something In the Water Does Not Compute(1999) I enjoy for it's sparse echoey coldness, but what the Prince and his band do to it on the June 1984 Birthday show takes it to some crazy energy levels.

I tend to enjoy all the live performances I've heard of this song. I really don't like the album track, never have, hated the song. But then I heard the 1984 birthday performance and it is one of my favourites, which I can listen to on repeat.

I really love both studio versions of Something in the Water, and most live versions as well, especially that Birthday Show one. Damn they all need to be released, what a song!

Yes, the 1984 Birthday show was just painfully majestic

and the 'instrumental' of the similar rendition on the 1985 soundchecks

I always wished that was done on the PR tour followed by Computer Blue

das a lot of editing lol

Well hopefully what I've been hearing is the norm

SkipperLove said:

Re-read my post. I added some nuance. I said there was some hyperbolic aftermath after his death. I am not blaming the musicans. Interviewers cherry pick. Music historians spend some time on his genius but offer little proof beyond the obvious choices and do not dig through later works for evidence that the talent wasn't an 80's fluke. But really you might be surprised how many people get one inkling that he didn't play every single thing and they jump to the belief that Prince is a bit of a myth. I remember talking with a coworker who was about 60 years old (highly intelligent African American man who grew up in Brooklyn New York) about Prince briefly and before I could say much at all, he said "Prince had great bands". Nothing about his talent at all.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Not from what I hear, The whole Prince did everything played everything played 31 instruments is very strong.

.

All the interviews I hear/read by band members continue prince as the foundation the visionary the skill the wealth of musicianish etc

.

People who didn't know 'that Prince could play guitar' I don't even fit in the equation. I mean Prince is my musical hero, but he is still another man, whose life isn't so important to everyone.
.
In some ways Prince's need of control and secrecy and not actually 'looking back' and reissuing stuff and being a part of that piece of his legacy can work against him. But I think a lot of the band members and associates do what they can to make sure people know.

[Edited 10/15/18 13:16pm]

[Edited 10/15/18 13:17pm]

To put aside Prince's bands is to put aside him as a performer.
He was a great bandleader, probably the best in pop, but that means you'd better be up to the task.
And considering the many ideas rehearsals (N2CU) and life on tour can bring (4 The Tears In Your Eyes),
it's not possible to detach the bands: they're the ones playing in Syracuse, in Detroit, in Frisco.

They're the ones that propel "Data Bank", "Can't Stop This Feeling I Got", "Girl O' My Dreams" and "We Can Funk". They're the ones making "Sometimes It Snows In April" what it is. Heck, "Parade" as it is.
"Around The World In A Day"? Not his. The instrumental coda of "I Wanna Be Your Lover"? Not his. "Sexy MF"? A jam. The Gold Experience, heck, Diamonds and Pearls, Love Symbol AND TGE are propulsed by the New Power Generation.

The space he gave to his collaborators is understated. Damn, he made albums around a band member (Eric Leeds)!
And we may all revere SOTT, but we know what it's made of. Mostly left-overs of a period where the connection with Wendy and Lisa was reaching telepathic levels. Can we really discard "In A Large Room With No Light", or "Love or Money" and many others from his discography? The whole "Undertaker" set?

And don't start me on inspiration. Vanity, Susan, Susannah, Jill, Mayte, they all made him write dozens of songs recorded solo. That "collaborators", up until circa 1986, were really Prince's friends whom he hung around with, or part of his private life. This changed everything. The Time albums are masterpieces because Morris is performing. Prince knew that. Of course he's hilarious when he does Jamie Starr, but Morris doesn't have to strangle his voice to be funny. He knew Jill's strenghts. etc.

bonatoc said:

I think the main problem in this thread is the phrasing. It's about "Prince And The Revolution vs. Prince Solo" as if the later was everything that isn't the former.

.

There could be endless debates around the influence/impact of such or such collaborator or band on his music, who brought what exactly, and so on; or whether one favors P's solo work (as in the tracks where he played everything or almost everything) or his band recordings.

.

But Prince remained the man with the vision, and none of his bands were democratic units. And while his musicians may have been a little more outspoken until 1990 that later, the boss/employee relation was there and very clear from the very start, and "Prince And The Revolution" was as much "Prince's band" as any other unit before or since.

databank said:

I think the main problem in this thread is the phrasing. It's about "Prince And The Revolution vs. Prince Solo" as if the later was everything that isn't the former.

.

There could be endless debates around the influence/impact of such or such collaborator or band on his music, who brought what exactly, and so on; or whether one favors P's solo work (as in the tracks where he played everything or almost everything) or his band recordings.

.

But Prince remained the man with the vision, and none of his bands were democratic units. And while his musicians may have been a little more outspoken until 1990 that later, the boss/employee relation was there and very clear from the very start, and "Prince And The Revolution" was as much "Prince's band" as any other unit before or since.

I don't believe the OP is talking about Prince ( and the Revolution) per se. for some reason, if someone mentions the Revolution then others jump in and make it about the Revolution, instead of talking about say Prince / Prince and the 1997-1999 NPG. There are people who disagree with almost everything 1983-1986 and say 'they weren't even the best band' but never even discuss their fav NPG configuration or NPG era, never just talk about it.

.

I'm also very interested in the Rainbow Children album evolution solo collaboration not to mention the areas of study that influenced this project etc I think that short period is very interesting

.

For example, I've talked about Prince / Prince & the Time and how that all worked. And this is a good example because we know with The Time, it is Prince's project. But it we have to also look at Flyte Tyme who were a band already before they became The Time, we have to look at Morris Day the protege lead (who was also specifically put there to visually reflect Prince) who also played drums on many tracks and had a friendship with Prince that fed the energy of Mr Day the lead. We then also have to look at Jesse Johnson who came from outside the FT camp and had so many similarities to Prince. How Prince used a lot of Jesse's gear to record stuff, Jesse learned Prince's sound and how he liked to record, his connection with Susan Rogers and helping her. The Time jam sessions and rehearsals. And how all that expressives synergy and a different type of collaboration.

.

I do think there is a difference in the bands/band members from 1978-1987 vs those that became the NPG, for many reasons. Yes definately Prince's band units, but there is a big change in perception when looking at Prince of 1978 and Andre, Bobby Z, Matt Fink, Dez and Gayle vs 3rd Eye Girl

In 1997 when he writes: How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound? Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind? In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back To the soul we shared
With my very life

he isn't just talking about friendship, because the people he was talking to they were still friends. He's definately talking about the collaborative synergy of working with people. This also includes the Morris Day/the Time. And he kept going back to Sheila E not as much for the studio collaboration but the stage energy.

.

the spirit of collaboration is much different from 'who is in charge' I don't think there is a question that Prince is the central figure and visionary.

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

I think the main problem in this thread is the phrasing. It's about "Prince And The Revolution vs. Prince Solo" as if the later was everything that isn't the former.

.

There could be endless debates around the influence/impact of such or such collaborator or band on his music, who brought what exactly, and so on; or whether one favors P's solo work (as in the tracks where he played everything or almost everything) or his band recordings.

.

But Prince remained the man with the vision, and none of his bands were democratic units. And while his musicians may have been a little more outspoken until 1990 that later, the boss/employee relation was there and very clear from the very start, and "Prince And The Revolution" was as much "Prince's band" as any other unit before or since.

I don't believe the OP is talking about Prince ( and the Revolution) per se. for some reason, if someone mentions the Revolution then others jump in and make it about the Revolution, instead of talking about say Prince / Prince and the 1997-1999 NPG. There are people who disagree with almost everything 1983-1986 and say 'they weren't even the best band' but never even discuss their fav NPG configuration or NPG era, never just talk about it.

.

I'm also very interested in the Rainbow Children album evolution solo collaboration not to mention the areas of study that influenced this project etc I think that short period is very interesting

.

For example, I've talked about Prince / Prince & the Time and how that all worked. And this is a good example because we know with The Time, it is Prince's project. But it we have to also look at Flyte Tyme who were a band already before they became The Time, we have to look at Morris Day the protege lead (who was also specifically put there to visually reflect Prince) who also played drums on many tracks and had a friendship with Prince that fed the energy of Mr Day the lead. We then also have to look at Jesse Johnson who came from outside the FT camp and had so many similarities to Prince. How Prince used a lot of Jesse's gear to record stuff, Jesse learned Prince's sound and how he liked to record, his connection with Susan Rogers and helping her. The Time jam sessions and rehearsals. And how all that expressives synergy and a different type of collaboration.

.

I do think there is a difference in the bands/band members from 1978-1987 vs those that became the NPG, for many reasons. Yes definately Prince's band units, but there is a big change in perception when looking at Prince of 1978 and Andre, Bobby Z, Matt Fink, Dez and Gayle vs 3rd Eye Girl

In 1997 when he writes: How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound? Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind? In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back To the soul we shared
With my very life

he isn't just talking about friendship, because the people he was talking to they were still friends. He's definately talking about the collaborative synergy of working with people. This also includes the Morris Day/the Time. And he kept going back to Sheila E not as much for the studio collaboration but the stage energy.

.

the spirit of collaboration is much different from 'who is in charge' I don't think there is a question that Prince is the central figure and visionary.

The point I'm getting at.
Still, when I hear a kickass live perfs or studio band sessions, I just can't think in terms of "human sampler". Prince may giving arrangement directions, but he's not controlling them telepathically (although, when it comes to Prince...), does he?

The bands make Prince live performances what they are. You like Syracuse? Detroit 86? Lovesexy 88? Act II? etc. You hear Prince's songs, but it's not him playing them (doh). Prince's band members play Prince's music and it sounds like Prince. Educated musicians agree this is no small feat. Take "Sexy MF", and all the live performances: Prince didn't dictate the soloes note by note to his musicians. Yet they make the NPG sound, as much as Prince. Or are we gonna dismiss the massive influence (for good and especially for worse) Kirky J. had on Prince's sound?

If you think these were mere extras, you don't know squat about what is required to play in public at the levels Prince was demanding, with a hundred songs (or more) as a tour repertoire.

[Edited 10/16/18 11:19am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

I think the main problem in this thread is the phrasing. It's about "Prince And The Revolution vs. Prince Solo" as if the later was everything that isn't the former.

.

There could be endless debates around the influence/impact of such or such collaborator or band on his music, who brought what exactly, and so on; or whether one favors P's solo work (as in the tracks where he played everything or almost everything) or his band recordings.

.

But Prince remained the man with the vision, and none of his bands were democratic units. And while his musicians may have been a little more outspoken until 1990 that later, the boss/employee relation was there and very clear from the very start, and "Prince And The Revolution" was as much "Prince's band" as any other unit before or since.

I don't believe the OP is talking about Prince ( and the Revolution) per se. for some reason, if someone mentions the Revolution then others jump in and make it about the Revolution, instead of talking about say Prince / Prince and the 1997-1999 NPG. There are people who disagree with almost everything 1983-1986 and say 'they weren't even the best band' but never even discuss their fav NPG configuration or NPG era, never just talk about it.

.

I'm also very interested in the Rainbow Children album evolution solo collaboration not to mention the areas of study that influenced this project etc I think that short period is very interesting

.

For example, I've talked about Prince / Prince & the Time and how that all worked. And this is a good example because we know with The Time, it is Prince's project. But it we have to also look at Flyte Tyme who were a band already before they became The Time, we have to look at Morris Day the protege lead (who was also specifically put there to visually reflect Prince) who also played drums on many tracks and had a friendship with Prince that fed the energy of Mr Day the lead. We then also have to look at Jesse Johnson who came from outside the FT camp and had so many similarities to Prince. How Prince used a lot of Jesse's gear to record stuff, Jesse learned Prince's sound and how he liked to record, his connection with Susan Rogers and helping her. The Time jam sessions and rehearsals. And how all that expressives synergy and a different type of collaboration.

.

I do think there is a difference in the bands/band members from 1978-1987 vs those that became the NPG, for many reasons. Yes definately Prince's band units, but there is a big change in perception when looking at Prince of 1978 and Andre, Bobby Z, Matt Fink, Dez and Gayle vs 3rd Eye Girl

In 1997 when he writes: How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound? Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind? In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back To the soul we shared
With my very life

he isn't just talking about friendship, because the people he was talking to they were still friends. He's definately talking about the collaborative synergy of working with people. This also includes the Morris Day/the Time. And he kept going back to Sheila E not as much for the studio collaboration but the stage energy.

.

the spirit of collaboration is much different from 'who is in charge' I don't think there is a question that Prince is the central figure and visionary.

There certainly was a difference in the relationship he had with people he began to work with before he became a world-class superstar and those people he met after. The arguments he had with Mico on the Nude tour probably couldn't possibly have happened after 1990 because anyone talking to him like that would have been fired on the spot. On the other hand there's this story where (I think it was Dez) didn't want to play a song and the others said yeah we'll be on your side and when (I think it was Dez) told Prince everyone chickened out and no one dared to support him and confront Prince. That says a lot about it all. There also probably was a "peers" sentiment with those people he grew-up with and other musicians his age at the time, that couldn't be similar later, because he was older than most of his later musicians or just too much of a star by comparison to them.

.

On the other hand Prince was friends with certain later bandmembers as well: Larry, Kirk, Morris: they were his employees but also pals. And even though Prince called the shots, I'm sure the spirit of collaboration and the feeling of excitement were still there: he clearly enjoyed jamming and experimenting with the 94-96 NPG, the ONA band or 3EG if none other. What they brought to his sound palette was important and he clearly wanted to see how far he could go with those bands. The last band he had with Neon was very promising as well, and Prince clearly intended to "try" things with them.

.

I think to some extent the things we experiment in our 20's are just newer and everyone is more hot headed and there's still a level of learning and experimenting and daring in everything we do, and at this age it's important to be part of something (even if you're going to build this something the way Prince attempted to build a musical movement around him with the Mpls Sound and Paisley Park). I suspect this feeling of youth is what people perceive that makes it sound so much more exciting than what came later, and maybe Prince missed it too sometimes. This is also probably part of the reason why, despite composing In This Bed Eye Scream, he wouldn't reform The Revolution or the Lovesexy band: they were all older and what once was could never be again.

.

If the Estate deigned to release a proper "soundchecks and rehearsal" series with dozens of recordings from every era, it certainly would be interesting to compare the atmosphere between bands. I've been told by a former bandmember that it could be quite tense in the 90's. It probably was more laid out in the 80's and again in the 00's and 10's.

.

But I really think there's some sort of a mythology around the 78-90 bands that makes them and their relation to Prince sound much more different from the bands that came later than it really was. On the other hand there's also a mythology around the 78-90 Prince himself, and the music he made, that makes it really hard to discuss anything that came after without it being compared to those years.

.

As for what the OP was really talking about, IDK, their confusing phrasing made it really hard to grasp and we did what we could with what we had. So if I misunderstood that ain't on me

bonatoc said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't believe the OP is talking about Prince ( and the Revolution) per se. for some reason, if someone mentions the Revolution then others jump in and make it about the Revolution, instead of talking about say Prince / Prince and the 1997-1999 NPG. There are people who disagree with almost everything 1983-1986 and say 'they weren't even the best band' but never even discuss their fav NPG configuration or NPG era, never just talk about it.

.

I'm also very interested in the Rainbow Children album evolution solo collaboration not to mention the areas of study that influenced this project etc I think that short period is very interesting

.

For example, I've talked about Prince / Prince & the Time and how that all worked. And this is a good example because we know with The Time, it is Prince's project. But it we have to also look at Flyte Tyme who were a band already before they became The Time, we have to look at Morris Day the protege lead (who was also specifically put there to visually reflect Prince) who also played drums on many tracks and had a friendship with Prince that fed the energy of Mr Day the lead. We then also have to look at Jesse Johnson who came from outside the FT camp and had so many similarities to Prince. How Prince used a lot of Jesse's gear to record stuff, Jesse learned Prince's sound and how he liked to record, his connection with Susan Rogers and helping her. The Time jam sessions and rehearsals. And how all that expressives synergy and a different type of collaboration.

.

I do think there is a difference in the bands/band members from 1978-1987 vs those that became the NPG, for many reasons. Yes definately Prince's band units, but there is a big change in perception when looking at Prince of 1978 and Andre, Bobby Z, Matt Fink, Dez and Gayle vs 3rd Eye Girl

In 1997 when he writes: How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound? Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind? In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back To the soul we shared
With my very life

he isn't just talking about friendship, because the people he was talking to they were still friends. He's definately talking about the collaborative synergy of working with people. This also includes the Morris Day/the Time. And he kept going back to Sheila E not as much for the studio collaboration but the stage energy.

.

the spirit of collaboration is much different from 'who is in charge' I don't think there is a question that Prince is the central figure and visionary.

The point I'm getting at.
Still, when I hear a kickass live perfs or studio band sessions, I just can't think in terms of "human sampler". Prince may giving arrangement directions, but he's not controlling them telepathically (although, when it comes to Prince...), does he?

The bands make Prince live performances what they are. You like Syracuse? Detroit 86? Lovesexy 88? Act II? etc. You hear Prince's songs, but it's not him playing them (doh). Prince's band members play Prince's music and it sounds like Prince. Educated musicians agree this is no small feat. Take "Sexy MF", and all the live performances: Prince didn't dictate the soloes note by note to his musicians. Yet they make the NPG sound, as much as Prince. Or are we gonna dismiss the massive influence (for good and especially for worse) Kirky J. had on Prince's sound?

If you think these were mere extras, you don't know squat about what is required to play in public at the levels Prince was demanding, with a hundred songs (or more) as a tour repertoire.

[Edited 10/16/18 11:19am]

I know you talk in riddles and poetry, but I don't understand how you are replying?

Why are you replying to my post saying "The point I'm getting at"

or If you think these were... you don't know squat etc?

I'm in total agreement with your post dude? So please clear up what you mean in replying to me please... soon

#37 maybe you mean to reply to paulludvig

johnniebishop said:

What about the musical direction from Morris Hayes and his controbutions to the Gold album, the NPG Exidus albums, and I believe Come. I wonder if sometimes it takes some one or a group of people to focus the fire (Prince's creativity)?

There was no such thing as a musical direction by Morris Hayes for those albums or any other. Morris was (at a later date I believe) the MD, which really mostly meant he had the band rehearse when Prince wasn't there, but didn't imply much creative influence over the music, and that was for the purpose of live shows not studio recordings.

.

Ricky Peterson apparently had quite an influence on Come and TGE's sound: Prince was reportedly greatly inspired by the post-production Peterson added to some of the tracks, and this ended-up shaping the overall sound of those records, particularly TGE. Ricky's role seems to have been underrated if not forgotten. I hope more informations surface about this.

.

As for Exodus (not Exidus), if I'm to interpret what Morris said correctly, it was in great parts a record Prince made because this specific band had this specific sound, and Prince wanted to record something that reflected the wild spirit of the rehearsals (including the segues).

.

So of course, every band recording depended to some extent on the band and what everyone brought to the table. Exodus wouldn't have been Exodus with The Revolution, NEWS wouldn't haver been NEWS with the 1994 NPG, Plectrumelectrum wouldn't have Plectrumelectrum with the NEWS band, etc. Prince reportedly dropped High to record TRC at least in parts because he wanted to records a whole album around John Blackwell's drumming. Who was there mattered, sometimes a lot. But Prince's role as a bandleader was precisely to know who to pick for what, and to know how to use a band's potential at its best. People would come-up with ideas, sometimes even offer whole songs, but there is no documented case of a bandmember or band saying "OK Prince I have a concept for an album let's do this or that".

.

Again, I suggest you read the books and listen to the podcasts, and that you pay attention to your syntax and spelling.

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't believe the OP is talking about Prince ( and the Revolution) per se. for some reason, if someone mentions the Revolution then others jump in and make it about the Revolution, instead of talking about say Prince / Prince and the 1997-1999 NPG. There are people who disagree with almost everything 1983-1986 and say 'they weren't even the best band' but never even discuss their fav NPG configuration or NPG era, never just talk about it.

.

I'm also very interested in the Rainbow Children album evolution solo collaboration not to mention the areas of study that influenced this project etc I think that short period is very interesting

.

For example, I've talked about Prince / Prince & the Time and how that all worked. And this is a good example because we know with The Time, it is Prince's project. But it we have to also look at Flyte Tyme who were a band already before they became The Time, we have to look at Morris Day the protege lead (who was also specifically put there to visually reflect Prince) who also played drums on many tracks and had a friendship with Prince that fed the energy of Mr Day the lead. We then also have to look at Jesse Johnson who came from outside the FT camp and had so many similarities to Prince. How Prince used a lot of Jesse's gear to record stuff, Jesse learned Prince's sound and how he liked to record, his connection with Susan Rogers and helping her. The Time jam sessions and rehearsals. And how all that expressives synergy and a different type of collaboration.

.

I do think there is a difference in the bands/band members from 1978-1987 vs those that became the NPG, for many reasons. Yes definately Prince's band units, but there is a big change in perception when looking at Prince of 1978 and Andre, Bobby Z, Matt Fink, Dez and Gayle vs 3rd Eye Girl

In 1997 when he writes: How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound? Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind? In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back To the soul we shared
With my very life

he isn't just talking about friendship, because the people he was talking to they were still friends. He's definately talking about the collaborative synergy of working with people. This also includes the Morris Day/the Time. And he kept going back to Sheila E not as much for the studio collaboration but the stage energy.

.

the spirit of collaboration is much different from 'who is in charge' I don't think there is a question that Prince is the central figure and visionary.

There certainly was a difference in the relationship he had with people he began to work with before he became a world-class superstar and those people he met after. The arguments he had with Mico on the Nude tour probably couldn't possibly have happened after 1990 because anyone talking to him like that would have been fired on the spot. On the other hand there's this story where (I think it was Dez) didn't want to play a song and the others said yeah we'll be on your side and when (I think it was Dez) told Prince everyone chickened out and no one dared to support him and confront Prince. That says a lot about it all. There also probably was a "peers" sentiment with those people he grew-up with and other musicians his age at the time, that couldn't be similar later, because he was older than most of his later musicians or just too much of a star by comparison to them.

.

On the other hand Prince was friends with certain later bandmembers as well: Larry, Kirk, Morris: they were his employees but also pals. And even though Prince called the shots, I'm sure the spirit of collaboration and the feeling of excitement were still there: he clearly enjoyed jamming and experimenting with the 94-96 NPG, the ONA band or 3EG if none other. What they brought to his sound palette was important and he clearly wanted to see how far he could go with those bands. The last band he had with Neon was very promising as well, and Prince clearly intended to "try" things with them.

.

I think to some extent the things we experiment in our 20's are just newer and everyone is more hot headed and there's still a level of learning and experimenting and daring in everything we do, and at this age it's important to be part of something (even if you're going to build this something the way Prince attempted to build a musical movement around him with the Mpls Sound and Paisley Park). I suspect this feeling of youth is what people perceive that makes it sound so much more exciting than what came later, and maybe Prince missed it too sometimes. This is also probably part of the reason why, despite composing In This Bed Eye Scream, he wouldn't reform The Revolution or the Lovesexy band: they were all older and what once was could never be again.

.

If the Estate deigned to release a proper "soundchecks and rehearsal" series with dozens of recordings from every era, it certainly would be interesting to compare the atmosphere between bands. I've been told by a former bandmember that it could be quite tense in the 90's. It probably was more laid out in the 80's and again in the 00's and 10's.

.

But I really think there's some sort of a mythology around the 78-90 bands that makes them and their relation to Prince sound much more different from the bands that came later than it really was. On the other hand there's also a mythology around the 78-90 Prince himself, and the music he made, that makes it really hard to discuss anything that came after without it being compared to those years.

.

As for what the OP was really talking about, IDK, their confusing phrasing made it really hard to grasp and we did what we could with what we had. So if I misunderstood that ain't on me

Yes I remember Miko saying something to the affect of Prince felt that because of the time period he was with Prince he would be able to take it. Versus the new members.

.

Yep lol the song Head. Dez didn't want to do that song anymore. I don't think the others had a problem with the song. And that was Dr Finks solo too lol I remember reading Dez threw something at Fink when he didn't side with him lol I never read anything of the others having a problem with that song. Lisa was the best co lead on that one...smoldering.

.

Yep I hear you on the rest of your post.

.

Like with the Time, that wicked grease worked 100% in 1981-1983 but in 1990 Graffit Bridge with Prince it wasn't the same. That doesn't mean I still wouldn't love to hear other collaborations and such between Prince & the Time, the Family and the Revolution. I don't think seeing Wendy with Prince on Tavis Smiley was nostalgia. That was current time realness. I also remember seeing the first shows with Eddie M and Sheila E in the 2011 period and the energy was just something different idk

.

I think the underlying power of 1978-1989 Prince and the bands is that his focus on a 'sound' and a vision was defined and being defined. That period was definately 'purple music'

The look the sounds the style the flow from album to album almost telling an unfolding story. And it seems after 88 trying to change direction from the 'New Breed' to the 'New Power Generation' didn't work out the same. the proteges of 1981-1987 were crucial and impactful to this day to his musical canon, but the 1990 - onward protege attempts never worked and the music more iffy or blah... I did have my hopes with Bria and Andy Allo again though. And I did wish the Rainbow Children era was a little bigger.

.

But us fans will have these talks until we are too old too lol

but in the meantime, I hope we get a lot of unreleased music and the videos shows and concerts to pass the time

And I think the mythos of times movies and events are important. I liked the mystery of Jamie Starr, as well as knowing background info on the Time equally.

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

There certainly was a difference in the relationship he had with people he began to work with before he became a world-class superstar and those people he met after. The arguments he had with Mico on the Nude tour probably couldn't possibly have happened after 1990 because anyone talking to him like that would have been fired on the spot. On the other hand there's this story where (I think it was Dez) didn't want to play a song and the others said yeah we'll be on your side and when (I think it was Dez) told Prince everyone chickened out and no one dared to support him and confront Prince. That says a lot about it all. There also probably was a "peers" sentiment with those people he grew-up with and other musicians his age at the time, that couldn't be similar later, because he was older than most of his later musicians or just too much of a star by comparison to them.

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On the other hand Prince was friends with certain later bandmembers as well: Larry, Kirk, Morris: they were his employees but also pals. And even though Prince called the shots, I'm sure the spirit of collaboration and the feeling of excitement were still there: he clearly enjoyed jamming and experimenting with the 94-96 NPG, the ONA band or 3EG if none other. What they brought to his sound palette was important and he clearly wanted to see how far he could go with those bands. The last band he had with Neon was very promising as well, and Prince clearly intended to "try" things with them.

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I think to some extent the things we experiment in our 20's are just newer and everyone is more hot headed and there's still a level of learning and experimenting and daring in everything we do, and at this age it's important to be part of something (even if you're going to build this something the way Prince attempted to build a musical movement around him with the Mpls Sound and Paisley Park). I suspect this feeling of youth is what people perceive that makes it sound so much more exciting than what came later, and maybe Prince missed it too sometimes. This is also probably part of the reason why, despite composing In This Bed Eye Scream, he wouldn't reform The Revolution or the Lovesexy band: they were all older and what once was could never be again.

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If the Estate deigned to release a proper "soundchecks and rehearsal" series with dozens of recordings from every era, it certainly would be interesting to compare the atmosphere between bands. I've been told by a former bandmember that it could be quite tense in the 90's. It probably was more laid out in the 80's and again in the 00's and 10's.

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But I really think there's some sort of a mythology around the 78-90 bands that makes them and their relation to Prince sound much more different from the bands that came later than it really was. On the other hand there's also a mythology around the 78-90 Prince himself, and the music he made, that makes it really hard to discuss anything that came after without it being compared to those years.

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As for what the OP was really talking about, IDK, their confusing phrasing made it really hard to grasp and we did what we could with what we had. So if I misunderstood that ain't on me

Yes I remember Miko saying something to the affect of Prince felt that because of the time period he was with Prince he would be able to take it. Versus the new members.

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Yep lol the song Head. Dez didn't want to do that song anymore. I don't think the others had a problem with the song. And that was Dr Finks solo too lol I remember reading Dez threw something at Fink when he didn't side with him lol I never read anything of the others having a problem with that song. Lisa was the best co lead on that one...smoldering.

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Yep I hear you on the rest of your post.

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Like with the Time, that wicked grease worked 100% in 1981-1983 but in 1990 Graffit Bridge with Prince it wasn't the same. That doesn't mean I still wouldn't love to hear other collaborations and such between Prince & the Time, the Family and the Revolution. I don't think seeing Wendy with Prince on Tavis Smiley was nostalgia. That was current time realness. I also remember seeing the first shows with Eddie M and Sheila E in the 2011 period and the energy was just something different idk

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I think the underlying power of 1978-1989 Prince and the bands is that his focus on a 'sound' and a vision was defined and being defined. That period was definately 'purple music'

The look the sounds the style the flow from album to album almost telling an unfolding story. And it seems after 88 trying to change direction from the 'New Breed' to the 'New Power Generation' didn't work out the same. the proteges of 1981-1987 were crucial and impactful to this day to his musical canon, but the 1990 - onward protege attempts never worked and the music more iffy or blah... I did have my hopes with Bria and Andy Allo again though. And I did wish the Rainbow Children era was a little bigger.

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But us fans will have these talks until we are too old too lol

but in the meantime, I hope we get a lot of unreleased music and the videos shows and concerts to pass the time

And I think the mythos of times movies and events are important. I liked the mystery of Jamie Starr, as well as knowing background info on the Time equally.

I hear ya too.

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Actually someone who attended some of the sessions told me that Andy was quite the creative force on her own record, and one can assume the same for Judith. For the first time with those two, Prince really acted as a proper producer, putting his talents at the service of the lead artist instead of using them as a vehicule for his own vision. I really hope we learn more about those sessions in the future. There is still so much we don't know about post-80's sessions.

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On a sidenote Wendy looks so tense on this Reflection TV performance. She seems really afraid of losing Prince or missing a note or something. I've always wondered if it was due to lack of rehearsals upfront or tension between them, or if it's just me overinterpreting her facial expressions.

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes I remember Miko saying something to the affect of Prince felt that because of the time period he was with Prince he would be able to take it. Versus the new members.

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Yep lol the song Head. Dez didn't want to do that song anymore. I don't think the others had a problem with the song. And that was Dr Finks solo too lol I remember reading Dez threw something at Fink when he didn't side with him lol I never read anything of the others having a problem with that song. Lisa was the best co lead on that one...smoldering.

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Yep I hear you on the rest of your post.

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Like with the Time, that wicked grease worked 100% in 1981-1983 but in 1990 Graffit Bridge with Prince it wasn't the same. That doesn't mean I still wouldn't love to hear other collaborations and such between Prince & the Time, the Family and the Revolution. I don't think seeing Wendy with Prince on Tavis Smiley was nostalgia. That was current time realness. I also remember seeing the first shows with Eddie M and Sheila E in the 2011 period and the energy was just something different idk

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I think the underlying power of 1978-1989 Prince and the bands is that his focus on a 'sound' and a vision was defined and being defined. That period was definately 'purple music'

The look the sounds the style the flow from album to album almost telling an unfolding story. And it seems after 88 trying to change direction from the 'New Breed' to the 'New Power Generation' didn't work out the same. the proteges of 1981-1987 were crucial and impactful to this day to his musical canon, but the 1990 - onward protege attempts never worked and the music more iffy or blah... I did have my hopes with Bria and Andy Allo again though. And I did wish the Rainbow Children era was a little bigger.

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But us fans will have these talks until we are too old too lol

but in the meantime, I hope we get a lot of unreleased music and the videos shows and concerts to pass the time

And I think the mythos of times movies and events are important. I liked the mystery of Jamie Starr, as well as knowing background info on the Time equally.

I hear ya too.

.

Actually someone who attended some of the sessions told me that Andy was quite the creative force on her own record, and one can assume the same for Judith. For the first time with those two, Prince really acted as a proper producer, putting his talents at the service of the lead artist instead of using them as a vehicule for his own vision. I really hope we learn more about those sessions in the future. There is still so much we don't know about post-80's sessions.

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On a sidenote Wendy looks so tense on this Reflection TV performance. She seems really afraid of losing Prince or missing a note or something. I've always wondered if it was due to lack of rehearsals upfront or tension between them, or if it's just me overinterpreting her facial expressions.

Yeah I read the same about Andy and I'm glad she was that way. Maybe by that time after failed attempts with Bria, Tamar etc he finally let his guard down. BUT he did try to make her over into a funk dancing artist, and that she was not.

I believe Judith Hill was already a 'defined' person/artist at the time of her meeting Prince. And didn't try the protege thing with her.

I agree, I wish some of the people who fight against anyone who talks about the Revolution era or 1980-1988 period would just create threads about latter periods and just put together the times and background. I'm not even a fan of some latter eras but I love to still look into them and dig into the background to understand.

I'm so over the what woman Prince loved the most or who was his soul mate stuff. So tired of that.

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I remember her talking about it and she said something to the affect of when she would look at him she was feeling how beautiful he was and how much she loved that and him.

If you watch their hands playing they were in total sync. Any more rehearsing would have been too much lol
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Wendy Melvoin: Then the next day, I get this call: “Prince would like you to come and rehearse with him on acoustic guitar for `The Tavis Smiley Show’ he’s doing.” Curiosity got the best of me. I went down, and he was remarkably kind and open, and gave me a huge hug. He had me sit in with his band, and I hung with him for two hours.

The next day, it was just him and me, and he was gorgeous. He was the guy I knew when I first met him. He was the guy who spent the night at my and Lisa’s house on our pullout bed. I held on to him and kept kissing him and hugging him and telling him I loved him. I don’t know what to think of it.
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Prince: “She plays acoustic guitar with me better than almost anyone. The opportunity came up and her name was the first to come to mind. I’m looking for things to juice me, too.”

johnniebishop said:

dodger said:

johnniebishop said:

What about the musical direction from Morris Hayes and his controbutions to the Gold album, the NPG Exidus albums, and I believe Come. I wonder if sometimes it takes some one or a group of people to focus the fire (Prince's creativity)?

Some good anecdotes from Morris here: http://prince.org/msg/7/456294 The one about how he inspired the lyrics to Face Down is funny. Let’s hope he doesn’t go down the road of selling Face Down merch like Susannah did with Starfish And Coffee

Face Down logos on purple coffins? "Death is the New Black! Make your funeral funky with Mr. Hayes!"

databank said:

dodger said:

johnniebishop said: Some good anecdotes from Morris here: http://prince.org/msg/7/456294 The one about how he inspired the lyrics to Face Down is funny. Let’s hope he doesn’t go down the road of selling Face Down merch like Susannah did with Starfish And Coffee

Face Down logos on purple coffins? "Death is the New Black! Make your funeral funky with Mr. Hayes!"

I'm seeing a hearse with a Dig U Better Dead sign

paulludvig said:

I think the elephants and flowers should get a writing credit for inspiring Elephants and Flower. That song couldn't have been written about them.

It makes sense.

And the butterflies because why them?

databank said:

This has been a very interesting read. What also brought this to my mind is that sometimes I listen to songs and there are HUGE leaps in quality, performance and structure. The transition from 1999 album to Purple Rain. Songs like "She Spoke to Me (Extended)" and "When the Lights Go Down" are huge leaps in Jazz composition that when I listen to some of Prince's solo jazz fusion work they don't quite compare. Diamonds and Pearls was another evolutionary leap in his pop sound that I wouldn't think came soley from him.

I agree with a lot on here that Prince was the catalyst for his all his work, a musical genius that concepts and vision sprang from, but I think he sometimes needed structual help to get form raw concept to master work. Not always, just sometimes. I look at a song like Crystal Ball. Musically it has the makings of a masterpiece in all of it's various forms but I think it doesn't quite make it there because Prince was "stuck" structurally and instrumentally.

[Edited 10/17/18 6:52am]

johnniebishop said:

This has been a very interesting read. What also brought this to my mind is that sometimes I listen to songs and there are HUGE leaps in quality, performance and structure. The transition from 1999 album to Purple Rain. Songs like "She Spoke to Me (Extended)" and "When the Lights Go Down" are huge leaps in Jazz composition that when I listen to some of Prince's solo jazz fusion work they don't quite compare. Diamonds and Pearls was another evolutionary leap in his pop sound that I wouldn't think came soley from him.

I agree with a lot on here that Prince was the catalyst for his all his work, a musical genius that concepts and vision sprang from, but I think he sometimes needed structual help to get form raw concept to master work. Not always, just sometimes. I look at a song like Crystal Ball. Musically it has the makings of a masterpiece in all of it's various forms but I think it doesn't quite make it there because Prince was "stuck" structurally and instrumentally.

[Edited 10/17/18 6:52am]

Great thoughts here.

Interestingly I see Crystal Ball is free structurally... and complete. Anymore or less 4 me would be the difference in the 1985 Of4$ and the 1991 version

I think one difference in time periods is that from many people in the bands and side musicians like Novi Novog, is that he liked that 'first take' sound, vs later when he seemed to try to polish everything.

bonatoc said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't believe the OP is talking about Prince ( and the Revolution) per se. for some reason, if someone mentions the Revolution then others jump in and make it about the Revolution, instead of talking about say Prince / Prince and the 1997-1999 NPG. There are people who disagree with almost everything 1983-1986 and say 'they weren't even the best band' but never even discuss their fav NPG configuration or NPG era, never just talk about it.

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I'm also very interested in the Rainbow Children album evolution solo collaboration not to mention the areas of study that influenced this project etc I think that short period is very interesting

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For example, I've talked about Prince / Prince & the Time and how that all worked. And this is a good example because we know with The Time, it is Prince's project. But it we have to also look at Flyte Tyme who were a band already before they became The Time, we have to look at Morris Day the protege lead (who was also specifically put there to visually reflect Prince) who also played drums on many tracks and had a friendship with Prince that fed the energy of Mr Day the lead. We then also have to look at Jesse Johnson who came from outside the FT camp and had so many similarities to Prince. How Prince used a lot of Jesse's gear to record stuff, Jesse learned Prince's sound and how he liked to record, his connection with Susan Rogers and helping her. The Time jam sessions and rehearsals. And how all that expressives synergy and a different type of collaboration.

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I do think there is a difference in the bands/band members from 1978-1987 vs those that became the NPG, for many reasons. Yes definately Prince's band units, but there is a big change in perception when looking at Prince of 1978 and Andre, Bobby Z, Matt Fink, Dez and Gayle vs 3rd Eye Girl

In 1997 when he writes: How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound? Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind? In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back To the soul we shared
With my very life

he isn't just talking about friendship, because the people he was talking to they were still friends. He's definately talking about the collaborative synergy of working with people. This also includes the Morris Day/the Time. And he kept going back to Sheila E not as much for the studio collaboration but the stage energy.

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the spirit of collaboration is much different from 'who is in charge' I don't think there is a question that Prince is the central figure and visionary.

The point I'm getting at.
Still, when I hear a kickass live perfs or studio band sessions, I just can't think in terms of "human sampler". Prince may giving arrangement directions, but he's not controlling them telepathically (although, when it comes to Prince...), does he?

The bands make Prince live performances what they are. You like Syracuse? Detroit 86? Lovesexy 88? Act II? etc. You hear Prince's songs, but it's not him playing them (doh). Prince's band members play Prince's music and it sounds like Prince. Educated musicians agree this is no small feat. Take "Sexy MF", and all the live performances: Prince didn't dictate the soloes note by note to his musicians. Yet they make the NPG sound, as much as Prince. Or are we gonna dismiss the massive influence (for good and especially for worse) Kirky J. had on Prince's sound?

If you think these were mere extras, you don't know squat about what is required to play in public at the levels Prince was demanding, with a hundred songs (or more) as a tour repertoire.

[Edited 10/16/18 11:19am]

reply to my Orgnote bonatoc

^ Dear Old Friend,

We're on the same page.
The final " if you think... " was intented to be understood as "if someone thinks...".

bonatoc said:

^ Dear Old Friend,

We're on the same page.
The final " if you think... " was intented to be understood as "if someone thinks...".

Can U C how confusing that could have been for me?

OldFriends4Sale said:

bonatoc said:

^ Dear Old Friend,

We're on the same page.
The final " if you think... " was intented to be understood as "if someone thinks...".

Can U C how confusing that could have been for me?