Hi. I'm obviously a BIG fan of Prince and his body of work, but my opinion is that songs/album in which he collaborates (music and lyric writing) with other artists produce better songs, concepts, and projects. for instance, I think the Revolution influence and collaboration are better than his previous solo work (I'm not sure how much influence they had on Controversy or 1999, I'm assuming a bit to quite a bit) His The Time production and writing was good, but not to the level of the Revelulation output at the time, sands the Bird and perhaps Ice Cream Castles / Mutany. But then you have genuis like Kiss (which is solo, but is it the best on Parade? Commercial yes.)

So thoughts? I could be WAAYY of base, but ....

Let's do a control study.

Pick 5 of the best collaborated songs and 5 of the best solo. Which list it better?

The Revelulation's (as you call them) influence is often misunderstood.

.

Prince And The Revolution records are basically solo Prince records, he just chose to put their name on the cover.

.

Bandmembers such as André, Dez, Eric or Wendy & Lisa certainly were influential in terms of exposing Prince to musical influences he wasn't necessarily familiar with at that time, and maybe in that regard they were more influential than later collaborators because Prince, at this young age, was more open to discovering new music and adding new elements to his own work than he would at later dates, at least this is what research tends to suggest at this stage.

.

They also certainly brought many musical ideas to the table, but it could be argued that later collaborators did, too.

.

But the bottom line is that Prince would always be the one behind the concepts, and the one to pick and choose what to use and how, and what to release and when. He had final word on everything, from arrangements to tracklists.

.

I don't mean to undermine The Revolution's talents: they were/are extremely talented people, but so were members of The Time, The Family and any other band Prince had till he passed. And it cannot be denied that they had a certain impact on the music itself, so it's possible that this plays a role in how you enjoy it. But the notion that there's such a thing as "Prince And The Revolution" collaboration as opposed to everything else being "Prince solo" has been debunked long ago. The band just has a legendary status none of his later band achieved, and -alongside the SOTT/Lovesexy band- happened to be around when Prince was at what is considered the peak of his career.

.

Prince's first decade of music has been intensively documented: I suggest you read such books as Duane Tudahl's recent 1983-1984 sessions book, or books by Per Nilsen or Alex Hahn to get a clearer idea of his creative process. You will understand what I'm talking about better.

.

Please also be careful how you phrase your contributions to this board: the syntax and spelling of your post make it quite hard to understand, and most people probably won't bother reading it in its entirety. New members writing in such a manner are likely to get hostile comments.

.

Welcome to the Org.

1999 was mostly Prince. There are some guitar solos from Dez and apparently Jesse, some background singing from Lisa and Jill, but from all accounts the melodies and lyrics and even a large portion of the accompaniment is Prince. The dude was in the stuidio constantly. Very little imput from others. The songs When Doves Cry, Darling Nikki and Beautiful Ones from PR are all Prince--no collaboration whatsoever. purple rain is collaborative, but the basic melody and lyrics are him. let's go crazy's original concept is him, lyrics are him, melody is him, and the arrangement is a collaboration. Take me with you, Baby I'm A Star and I would Die for you has P as the songwriter and lyricist with some collaboration on arrangement but he was still in charge and the band's leader. There is collaboration throughout his life and bandmembers contributed some lovely melodies and ideas to his work, but ultimately it was Prince's idea to use them or not. Prince is a genius, not just a really talented frontman. The Revolution talked more straight with him and offered up ideas (maybe a bit more than later bands) but he ultimately was in charge.

When Doves Cry is considered one of the best songs ever written and Lisa Coleman from the Revoluton confirmed that that was all Prince.

johnniebishop said:

Hi. I'm obviously a BIG fan of Prince and his body of work, but my opinion is that songs/album in which he collaborates (music and lyric writing) with other artists produce better songs, concepts, and projects. for instance, I think the Revolution influence and collaboration are better than his previous solo work (I'm not sure how much influence they had on Controversy or 1999, I'm assuming a bit to quite a bit) His The Time production and writing was good, but not to the level of the Revelulation output at the time, sands the Bird and perhaps Ice Cream Castles / Mutany. But then you have genuis like Kiss (which is solo, but is it the best on Parade? Commercial yes.)

So thoughts? I could be WAAYY of base, but ....

Let's do a control study.

Pick 5 of the best collaborated songs and 5 of the best solo. Which list it better?

[Edited 10/15/18 10:24am]

[Edited 10/15/18 10:29am]

SkipperLove said:

I would suggest listening to his Piano and Microphone 83 album on youtube. YOu can hear him working out ideas on his piano, including a much different version of Purple Rain before it was presented to his band for them all to collaborate on. I am a big fan of his crazily underrated Truth album (not everyone of this site loves it as much but many Prince fans do). Anyhow, its so stripped down and wonderful and it is virtually non-collaborative in every way. (also streaming and on youtube).

johnniebishop said:

Hi. I'm obviously a BIG fan of Prince and his body of work, but my opinion is that songs/album in which he collaborates (music and lyric writing) with other artists produce better songs, concepts, and projects. for instance, I think the Revolution influence and collaboration are better than his previous solo work (I'm not sure how much influence they had on Controversy or 1999, I'm assuming a bit to quite a bit) His The Time production and writing was good, but not to the level of the Revelulation output at the time, sands the Bird and perhaps Ice Cream Castles / Mutany. But then you have genuis like Kiss (which is solo, but is it the best on Parade? Commercial yes.)

So thoughts? I could be WAAYY of base, but ....

Let's do a control study.

Pick 5 of the best collaborated songs and 5 of the best solo. Which list it better?

[Edited 10/15/18 10:35am]

johnniebishop said:

Hi. I'm obviously a BIG fan of Prince and his body of work, but my opinion is that songs/album in which he collaborates (music and lyric writing) with other artists produce better songs, concepts, and projects. for instance, I think the Revolution influence and collaboration are better than his previous solo work (I'm not sure how much influence they had on Controversy or 1999, I'm assuming a bit to quite a bit) His The Time production and writing was good, but not to the level of the Revelulation output at the time, sands the Bird and perhaps Ice Cream Castles / Mutany. But then you have genuis like Kiss (which is solo, but is it the best on Parade? Commercial yes.)

So thoughts? I could be WAAYY of base, but ....

Let's do a control study.

Pick 5 of the best collaborated songs and 5 of the best solo. Which list it better?

I think as many of the member from the Time & the Revolution have said that the majority of 'collaboration' came with the studio jam sessions and rehearsals where a lot of ideas and sound came from, that influenced the sound and directions.

.

Kiss also was not a 'solo' effort, that was an example of the ^ above. Prince, BrownMark, David Z and Mazarati helped create that one.

.

I think the energy chemistry views of those in the camp at different times in Prince career helped fuel ideas, jam sessions etc and that is the biggest part of the collaboration, before actual input. I don't think it is a coincidence that the sound changed so drastically after the Time/Revolution era ended.

KISS

1. Prince accoustic demo April 1985 when Mazarati asked for a song from Prince

2. Mazarati -BrownMark -David Z production May 1985 (Sir Casey Terry or Tony Christian on lead vocals)

3. Prince take back released on Parade by Prince & the Revolution February 1986

4. ...was the extended version done at the same time or prior to single-extended version release...

paulludvig said:

SkipperLove said:

1999 was mostly Prince. Very little imput from others. The songs When Doves Cry, Darling Nikki and Beautiful Ones from PR are all Prince--no collaboration whatsoever.

And some of the other songs on PR pre-dates the band line up he had at the time.

I Would Die 4 U(82) and Baby I'm A Star(81)

.

the only change in the band from 1981 - 1983 when they were worked on and completed is Dez 2 Wendy: Bobby Z Dr Fink Lisa and Mark were in the band.

.

No doubt the fullness of the song, the direction and sound is probably much different from the early demo to the album cut.

1. Tick Tick Bang(1981) Controversy album outtake Kiowa Trail home studio

2. -Paisley Park Graffiti Bridge(1990) album release.

I don't know if there are any other demo or even live expressions of this one until it made its drastically changed 'appearence' in 1990?

Strange Relationship

0. 1982 demo (I have not heard yet)

1. Billy's Sunglasses 1983(improvised soundcheck/rehearsal)

2. March 1985 Worcester Centrum PR tour soundcheck

3. 1986 Dream Factory studio version(Prince vocals)

4. live First Avenue open rehearsal (I Don't Like Winter) March 1987

5. Sign of the Times album released April 1987(Camille)

I love 1999 and some other songs but always wonder what they would be like if they had more live musicians. For example Something In the Water Does Not Compute(1999) I enjoy for it's sparse echoey coldness, but what the Prince and his band do to it on the June 1984 Birthday show takes it to some crazy energy levels.

.

Hearing the Nice live version of Temptation vs the Prince/Eddie M album cut, I think the live one brought something different and popped more. The album cut dragged.

.

My Drawers(Prince, Morris Day, Jesse) needed a full band production, with a touch of the live affect like Let's Go Crazy... that full band I would have prefered being the original Time.

OldFriends4Sale said:

1. basic track laid at Sunset Sound 1982

2. Raspberry Beret 1983 rehearsal

3. Raspberry Beret 1985 live preview on the Purple Rain tour

4. Rasberry Beret official release on Around the World in a Day/Rasberry Beret 12"

1999, in my opinion, is absolutely fine the way it is. Its spareness gives it a modern, minimalistic, Blade runner like feeling. It almost sounds like a concept album and it differentiates it from Purple Rain more.. The Revolution do not in all cases make everything better, in my opinion. As for Something in the Water, my favorite live versions were those in the last years of his life. They seem more lived in and even bitter in the best sense.

OldFriends4Sale said:

I love 1999 and some other songs but always wonder what they would be like if they had more live musicians. For example Something In the Water Does Not Compute(1999) I enjoy for it's sparse echoey coldness, but what the Prince and his band do to it on the June 1984 Birthday show takes it to some crazy energy levels.

.

Hearing the Nice live version of Temptation vs the Prince/Eddie M album cut, I think the live one brought something different and popped more. The album cut dragged.

.

My Drawers(Prince, Morris Day, Jesse) needed a full band production, with a touch of the live affect like Let's Go Crazy... that full band I would have prefered being the original Time.

[Edited 10/15/18 11:19am]

1. I love 1999 I still wonder what some songs only few would sound like with something more. That is just my expression.

.

2. I never said 'the Revoluion makes all things better' I'm also thinking about earlier song as well. So I'm not focusing on the Revolution per se(I tend to refere to the 19879-1986 period as Revolution, so i want to clear that up.

I also mentioned the Time and maybe more band members on some Romance 1600 songs could have given it a different life. As well as 1 extra musician - a full band I love a lot of Prines solo stuff too.

SkipperLove said:

1999, in my opinion, is absolutely fine the way it is. Its spareness gives it a modern, minimalistic, Blade runner like feeling. It almost sounds like a concept album and it differentiates it from Purple Rain more.. The Revolution do not in all cases make everything better, in my opinion. As for Something in the Water, my favorite live versions were those in the last years of his life. They seem more lived in and even bitter in the best sense.

OldFriends4Sale said:

I love 1999 and some other songs but always wonder what they would be like if they had more live musicians. For example Something In the Water Does Not Compute(1999) I enjoy for it's sparse echoey coldness, but what the Prince and his band do to it on the June 1984 Birthday show takes it to some crazy energy levels.

.

Hearing the Nice live version of Temptation vs the Prince/Eddie M album cut, I think the live one brought something different and popped more. The album cut dragged.

.

My Drawers(Prince, Morris Day, Jesse) needed a full band production, with a touch of the live affect like Let's Go Crazy... that full band I would have prefered being the original Time.

[Edited 10/15/18 11:19am]

this isn't as much about collaboration by SOLO -only Prince vs Prince and other musicians/sings

* full band

On these releases into the Dream Factory/SoTT music there are increasingly other side musicians like string players, orchestra, someone like Jonathon on drums on Do U Lie? with Prince, Eddie M on sax with just Prince, just Prince on piano with some finger cymbols or synth

Purple Rain

Let's Go Crazy *

Take Me With U *

The Beautiful Ones

Computer Blue *

Darling Nikki

When Doves Cry

Purple Rain *

I Would Die 4 U *

Baby I'm A Star *

Around the World in a Day

ATWIAD

Paisley Park

Condition of the Heart

Tamborine

America *

Pop Life *

the Ladder *

Temptation

Parade

Christopher Tracy's Parade

New Position

I Wonder U

Under the Cherry Moon

Girls & Boys *

Do U Lie?
Life Can Be So Nice

Venus de Milo

Mountains *

Another Lover Holen YoHead *

Kiss

Sometimes It Snows In April

nextedition said:

Anyone who can make If I Was Your Girlfriend on his own doesnt need a band

what about someone who made 1999: The New Master?

Musicians make mistakes. What's your point? He always had bands. Listening to Morris Hayes describe how much time it took to convince Prince to change his mind (on not removing old lyrics, engineering and creating misguided sample releases) indicates to me that both his triumphs and his mistakes were always his own.

OldFriends4Sale said:

nextedition said:

Anyone who can make If I Was Your Girlfriend on his own doesnt need a band

what about someone who made 1999: The New Master?

He didn't necessarily need a band. I agree. But what he did need was people who were honest with him. I am not dismissing others contributions. I have so much respect for folks like Clare FIscher..(damn good) Eric Leeds, Wendy, Lisa, Mark, Sonny T, Bland etc.... But minimalist Prince is underrated as fvck. I think even Prince underrated what he was able to do with less (with just one instrument, his voice and geniune emotion). Also, people think too often that solo acts like Bowie and Elton John were not collaborating with bands/other great musicians, but that Prince was a band member who later went on his own. To illustrate my point--I just went on twitter and typed in Revolution-Prince-solo. And people were doing some poll about best bands.the criteria for the poll was that solo musicians couldn't be picked. They said Bowie and Elton John were not allowed to be picked but Prince was. Ugh..(Bowie had bands that contributed quite a bit and Elton John didn't even write his own lyrics.)

nextedition said:

Anyone who can make If I Was Your Girlfriend on his own doesnt need a band

[Edited 10/15/18 12:18pm]

[Edited 10/15/18 12:20pm]

SkipperLove said:

Musicians make mistakes. What's your point? He always had bands. Listening to Morris Hayes describe how much time it took to convince Prince to change his mind (on not removing old lyrics, engineering and creating misguided sample releases) indicates to me that both his triumphs and his mistakes were always his own.

OldFriends4Sale said:

what about someone who made 1999: The New Master?

cyberspace, I was just joking with that, not that serious

but it also means we do need people

Sorry. Got emotional there..LOL

That was a bonehead move on his part. I do think that when musicians get older and start doubting their instincts or their past, stuff like that comes out. But the same artist of course make the original virtually on his own obviously.

OldFriends4Sale said:

SkipperLove said:

Musicians make mistakes. What's your point? He always had bands. Listening to Morris Hayes describe how much time it took to convince Prince to change his mind (on not removing old lyrics, engineering and creating misguided sample releases) indicates to me that both his triumphs and his mistakes were always his own.

cyberspace, I was just joking with that, not that serious

but it also means we do need people

jaawwnn said:

Clearly we need non band and full-band versions of all tracks released. Problem solved.

jaawwnn said:

Clearly we need non band and full-band versions of all tracks released. Problem solved.

LOL yes!!! I need to be able to put together the whole flow chart from beginning to end

Agree

I think the more people understand how art is made, the 'spiritual' or non-material aspect of it, then they can understand 'collaboration' and 'solo' in this context.

No one is dispensible or interchangable over. Because we all have something that is unique. Only Novi Novog could have made the sounds she did on the PR and ATWIAD era songs.

Some people did not really add to the musical culture at different times others brought things that Prince pulled and used and some liked others it repelled.

Even when it comes to time periods in how it influence the music and look make a difference.

I forgot which artist said it but it was like "In the creative process, we understand that we are not alone"

SkipperLove said:

Sorry. Got emotional there..LOL

That was a bonehead move on his part. I do think that when musicians get older and start doubting their instincts or their past, stuff like that comes out. But the same artist of course make the original virtually on his own obviously.

OldFriends4Sale said:

cyberspace, I was just joking with that, not that serious

but it also means we do need people

No man or a woman is an island..creatively. I agree. And every musician can bring their own spice to the soup so to speak. But the responsibilty of music historians, critics, and fans (IMO) comes with making sure that folks know that Prince's singular talent is not just the product of everyone else's efforts, that he ultimately made his own choices (hopefully based on good and geniune advice/efforts of others and his own curoisity and creative whims) and that he is not some manufactured star with charisma, a voice and some technical skill. There are people who couldn't believe until after his death that he could even play guitar. In the Purple universe or in the hyperbolic aftermath of his death, his collaborators might have been underrated, but I do think the general public still underrates or at least is unknowledgable of the full extent of his outstanding imagination, talent and artistry and the more they hear his collaborators state their own importance (which is fine) without the reminders of his unique behind-the-scenes talent as well (which is not fine) the more he recedes from the equation--I fear. Both are needed. But above all, exposure to his music is what is needed the most obviously. I am grateful for Duane Tudal's book but I doubt that book will sell to anyone but hardcore fans. Pand M 83 isn't selling that well unfortunately either. So, I fear that P is receding from the equation a bit. Sadly. I am not blaming band members necessarily-- they have to take care of their own careers to some extent. They are not professional Prince historians. The estate needs to make sure P's singular talents are discussed outside of Minnesota seminars.

[Edited 10/15/18 13:01pm]

[Edited 10/15/18 13:03pm]

[Edited 10/15/18 13:09pm]

SkipperLove said:

No man or a woman is an island..creatively. I agree. And every musician can bring their own spice to the soup so to speak. But the responsibilty (IMO) comes with making sure that folks know that Prince's singular talent is not just the product of everyone else's efforts, that he ultimately made his own choices (hopefully based on good and geniune advice/efforts of others and his own curoisity and creative whims) and that he is not some manufactured star with charisma, a voice and some technical skill. There are people who couldn't believe until after his death that he could even play guitar. In the Purple universe or in the hyperbolic aftermath of his death, his collaborators might have been underrated, but I do think the general public still underrates or at least is unknowledgable of the full extent of his outstanding imagination, talent and artistry and the more they hear his collaborators state their own importance (which is fine) without the reminders of his unique behind-the-scenes talent as well (which is not fine) the more he recedes from the equation--I fear. Both are needed. But above all, exposure to his music is what is needed the most obviously. I am grateful for Duane Tudal's book but I doubt that book will sell to anyone but hardcore fans. Pand M 83 isn't selling that well unfortunately either. So, I fear that P is receding from the equation a bit. Sadly.

[Edited 10/15/18 13:01pm]

[Edited 10/15/18 13:03pm]

Not from what I hear, The whole Prince did everything played everything played 31 instruments is very strong.

.

All the interviews I hear/read by band members continue prince as the foundation the visionary the skill the wealth of musicianish etc

.

People who didn't know 'that Prince could play guitar' I don't even fit in the equation. I mean Prince is my musical hero, but he is still another man, whose life isn't so important to everyone.
.
In some ways Prince's need of control and secrecy and not actually 'looking back' and reissuing stuff and being a part of that piece of his legacy can work against him. But I think a lot of the band members and associates do what they can to make sure people know.

Re-read my post. I added some nuance. I said there was some hyperbolic aftermath after his death. I am not blaming the musicans. Interviewers cherry pick. Music historians spend some time on his genius but offer little proof beyond the obvious choices and do not dig through later works for evidence that the talent wasn't an 80's fluke. But really you might be surprised how many people get one inkling that he didn't play every single thing and they jump to the belief that Prince is a bit of a myth. I remember talking with a coworker who was about 60 years old (highly intelligent African American man who grew up in Brooklyn New York) about Prince briefly and before I could say much at all, he said "Prince had great bands". Nothing about his talent at all.

OldFriends4Sale said:

SkipperLove said:

No man or a woman is an island..creatively. I agree. And every musician can bring their own spice to the soup so to speak. But the responsibilty (IMO) comes with making sure that folks know that Prince's singular talent is not just the product of everyone else's efforts, that he ultimately made his own choices (hopefully based on good and geniune advice/efforts of others and his own curoisity and creative whims) and that he is not some manufactured star with charisma, a voice and some technical skill. There are people who couldn't believe until after his death that he could even play guitar. In the Purple universe or in the hyperbolic aftermath of his death, his collaborators might have been underrated, but I do think the general public still underrates or at least is unknowledgable of the full extent of his outstanding imagination, talent and artistry and the more they hear his collaborators state their own importance (which is fine) without the reminders of his unique behind-the-scenes talent as well (which is not fine) the more he recedes from the equation--I fear. Both are needed. But above all, exposure to his music is what is needed the most obviously. I am grateful for Duane Tudal's book but I doubt that book will sell to anyone but hardcore fans. Pand M 83 isn't selling that well unfortunately either. So, I fear that P is receding from the equation a bit. Sadly.

[Edited 10/15/18 13:01pm]

[Edited 10/15/18 13:03pm]

Not from what I hear, The whole Prince did everything played everything played 31 instruments is very strong.

.

All the interviews I hear/read by band members continue prince as the foundation the visionary the skill the wealth of musicianish etc

.

People who didn't know 'that Prince could play guitar' I don't even fit in the equation. I mean Prince is my musical hero, but he is still another man, whose life isn't so important to everyone.
.
In some ways Prince's need of control and secrecy and not actually 'looking back' and reissuing stuff and being a part of that piece of his legacy can work against him. But I think a lot of the band members and associates do what they can to make sure people know.

[Edited 10/15/18 13:16pm]

[Edited 10/15/18 13:17pm]

What about the musical direction from Morris Hayes and his controbutions to the Gold album, the NPG Exidus albums, and I believe Come. I wonder if sometimes it takes some one or a group of people to focus the fire (Prince's creativity)?