Every artist eventually burns out. Nobody is immune from it. After SOTT there wasn't anything he could do to top that. Lovesexy had some genius moments but most of the album wasn't that good. Me personally I think he lost his edge when he moved into Paisley Park. He reached his dream and coasted the rest of his career. If you compare the Sunset Sound & home studio music with Paisley recorded music there is a dramatic change

I disagree with the notion that he "burned out". You don't have to like the rest of his music. Hopefully, you gave a majority of it at least a perusal. But he didn't burn out. He worked too damn hard to get that label. There might be a dramatic change (really there were many), but he churned out a ton of work. Also, Lovesexy is kind of the bomb (IMO). If that is burning out, then I wish more artists would do the same. If you said he lost his way or his footing as time went on, or repeated himself sometimes or chased trends a bit too often, then maybe at times I could agree with you. But after digging through his later work, there were many surprises that I enjoyed. Its subjective so I am not questioning your opinion just the "burn out" statement.. Also, I challenge the idea that "edge" is everything where music is concerned. Had John Lennon lived and decided in his 40's to do a jazz album, it wouldn't necessarily be edgy but it would be a challenge. I believe that Rainbow Children (despite its religiousness) was more of a challenge to Prince as a musician than Controversy (especially since Controversy has a similar sound to it as Dirty Mind.) I think one-man piano albums like One Nite Alone and accoustic albums like the Truth are certainly challenges to most musicians --whether or not, they shock or tantalize people like his early 80's work is really not the point when the "burn out" argument is made.

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

Every artist eventually burns out. Nobody is immune from it. After SOTT there wasn't anything he could do to top that. Lovesexy had some genius moments but most of the album wasn't that good. Me personally I think he lost his edge when he moved into Paisley Park. He reached his dream and coasted the rest of his career. If you compare the Sunset Sound & home studio music with Paisley recorded music there is a dramatic change

[Edited 8/14/18 21:58pm]

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

Every artist eventually burns out. Nobody is immune from it. After SOTT there wasn't anything he could do to top that. Lovesexy had some genius moments but most of the album wasn't that good. Me personally I think he lost his edge when he moved into Paisley Park. He reached his dream and coasted the rest of his career. If you compare the Sunset Sound & home studio music with Paisley recorded music there is a dramatic change

Bollocks !

Way back HOME, Black Sweat and Stare are testament to his ongoing creativity..

not to mention the work he was doing with Mono Neon

and Arranger Michael Nelson .

Right up to the end he was innovative, creative and fresh..

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

If you compare the Sunset Sound & home studio music with Paisley recorded music there is a dramatic change

skywalker said:

-

An argument could be made that Prince's post 80's material was a good as his earlier stuff. Hell, some of his post 80's music WAS actually from the 80's. The issue becomes time. Time affects how we (the audience respond to art. Example: The song "Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic" would be received by us differently had it been released in '88 instead of '99.

His 80's work was tied together by the struggle between the spiritual and the sexual. The argument can be made that LoveSexy essentially resolved that arc by choosing both. Once he resolved that conflict, perhaps his fans felt like everything that followed was anticlimactic, even that material that was previously

All that said, if he hadn't recorded anything after 1988, he would have been considered one of the greatest artists of the 20th century. Had he not recorded anything before 1988, his body of work over the 25+ years that followed would be still be considered among the greatest musical legacies of all time.

Prince's commercial success had LESS to do with the quality (subjective term) of his music and more to do with the promotion and record company fuckery.

Once he became a megastar, perhaps the label felt like the things that made him an early sensation were the same things that hindered him as a mainstream artist.

-

I believe his most commerically successful albums are from 1984, 1989, 1991, and 2004. What do all of these have in common? Excellent promotional strategies. To me, the argument that quality of music equates to commercial success has always been laughable and I am suprised that people around here subscribe to that notion.

Recall that Prince's commercial "decline" occurred after he parted ways with his managerial team. That said, when he and his label were on the same page -- which often coincided with times he really "needed" a hit album -- he always got one.

-

Lastly, it's AMAZING to me that people are going to think that somehow we got something "less than" with Prince. He is (arguably) the greatest musical force in pop music history. Yet, some are bemoaning that we didn't get some other kind of hypothetical popular musical genius. It's like looking at the stars in the sky, shining their light on us from billions of miles away, and simply proclaiming, "meh." Aw buddy, what a fuckin' waste....

There aren't that many that argue that here. We got The Prince We Were Meant To Have. And boy were we lucky to get that. His kind of car don't pass us every day.

[Edited 8/14/18 15:48pm]

[Edited 8/14/18 15:49pm]

[Edited 8/15/18 9:57am]

[Edited 8/15/18 12:23pm]

namepeace said:

skywalker said:

-

An argument could be made that Prince's post 80's material was a good as his earlier stuff. Hell, some of his post 80's music WAS actually from the 80's. The issue becomes time. Time affects how we (the audience respond to art. Example: The song "Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic" would be received by us differently had it been released in '88 instead of '99.

His 80's work was tied together by the struggle between the spiritual and the sexual. The argument can be made that LoveSexy essentially resolved that arc by choosing both. Once he resolved that conflict, perhaps his fans felt like everything that followed was anticlimactic, even that material that was previously

All that said, if he hadn't recorded anything after 1988, he would have been considered one of the greatest artists of the 20th century. Had he not recorded anything before 1988, his body of work over the 25+ years that followed would be still be considered among the greatest musical legacies of all time.

Prince's commercial success had LESS to do with the quality (subjective term) of his music and more to do with the promotion and record company fuckery.

Once he became a megastar, perhaps the label felt like the things that made him an early sensation were the same things that hindered him as a mainstream artist.

-

I believe his most commerically successful albums are from 1984, 1989, 1991, and 2004. What do all of these have in common? Excellent promotional strategies. To me, the argument that quality of music equates to commercial success has always been laughable and I am suprised that people around here subscribe to that notion.

There aren't that many that argue that here. Recall that Prince's commercial "decline" occurred after he parted ways with his managerial team. That said, when he and his label were on the same page -- which often coincided with times he really "needed" a hit album -- he always got one.

-

Lastly, it's AMAZING to me that people are going to think that somehow we got something "less than" with Prince. He is (arguably) the greatest musical force in pop music history. Yet, some are bemoaning that we didn't get some other kind of hypothetical popular musical genius. It's like looking at the stars in the sky, shining their light on us from billions of miles away, and simply proclaiming, "meh." Aw buddy, what a fuckin' waste....

We got The Prince We Were Meant To Have. And boy were we lucky to get that. His kind of car don't pass us every day.

I agree with you on most of this. Well said.

skywalker said:

namepeace said:

I agree with you on most of this. Well said.

Thanks, skywalker -- it's been a while.

I did find one sentence out of place so I edited it.

Everything thet you had written and said is the truth. There are many types of Prince fans that like certain types of music from Prince's album they adore. Some that can not stomach at all. Not only the songs Prince had presented to his fans. Bur that was around his circle that some fans like. Some fans distain a lot. But at the end of the day. We are all still Prince fans.

onlyforaminute said:

slida23 said:

Well, I've never posted here before, and I am nearly completely alone in my Prince fandom out here in 3D. If this idea has been posted so repeatedly that you are bored with it, it must have some merit. I personally find "Prince is awesome!!" to be considerably more tiresome than thoughtful criticism.

Nope. With me I need to see some real Prince knowledge credentials first before taking anyone seriously who immediately jumps in with some reworked regurgitated criticisms. That's just too easy, since nowadays criticism is somehow seen as an automatic sign of higher knowledge.

Hmmm, is there a Prince test to take? I think the idea that someone would pretend to have an opinion about Prince in order to impress a bunch of strangers on the internet is a strange one. This is very particular and enthusiastic community. Anyway, there is quite literally no way for me to prove that I've ever even listened to one Prince song by typing sentences into a forum. He is not an obscure, seldom discussed artist, and even his bootlegs and b-sides are not to hard to learn about in the era of internet. I could tell you that I have a bootleg cd with a version of Crystal Ball that is much better than the one he officially released. Or maybe I don't. Or that I paid $30 for a vinyl bootleg of the Black Album way back when, and I was disappointed with the record, but after a more recent listen it's better than I thought at the time. Or that I have the rather disappointingly announced official release of his piano rehearsals as a vinyl bootleg, and it sounds like crap, and has a rather low fidelity version of "Baby, You're A Trip" on it as well, but I could also glean all these ideas just by digging into this forum, and I have read a lot of posts on this forum.

Regardless of your opinion on what I've written, simple logic would suggest it comes from someone that has spent some time listening to his music.

Lovejunky said:

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

Every artist eventually burns out. Nobody is immune from it. After SOTT there wasn't anything he could do to top that. Lovesexy had some genius moments but most of the album wasn't that good. Me personally I think he lost his edge when he moved into Paisley Park. He reached his dream and coasted the rest of his career. If you compare the Sunset Sound & home studio music with Paisley recorded music there is a dramatic change

Bollocks !

Way back HOME, Black Sweat and Stare are testament to his ongoing creativity..

not to mention the work he was doing with Mono Neon

and Arranger Michael Nelson .

Right up to the end he was innovative, creative and fresh..

Black Sweat and Stare are indeed both awesome. Most of his later material is not at this level of quality, however.

slida23 said:

RJOrion said:

1725topp says:

"...But, of course, far too many of Prince's fans wanted him to remain their racially ambiguous overly sexualized nymph child rather than becoming an African American artist boldly using his work to address the oppression of black folks. So, yeah, I get it. Whenever a person decides that there are more important things to life than sex, then that person becomes tame, safe, and half-baked."

---------------------------

true....so very true

I'm not sure how valid this statement is, but I can only speak for myself. I thought "The Rainbow Children" was perhaps his most cohesive, focused work of his career(if a little on the long side), and though it's "mellow" in comparison to Prince's salad days, the music is fantastic. It's hard for me to imagine that a real Prince fan would abandon him just because he grew up and wanted to address his blackness in a more direct way.

*

Prince.org was a blazing, all-out barn fire when TRC was released. I'm sure you can search the many threads and very long debates about this album, but folks on this very site called Prince everything from a "reverse racist" to a "homophobe." Many, not all, of his white and LGBTQP fans on this site openly questioned if they could remain Prince fans when TRC was released. To be fair, there were some fans who simply didn't like the music, and other fans stated that they liked the music so much that they could ignore the lyrics, which they found simple, dumb, or just offensive. So, yes, quite a few folks on this site hated TRC when it was released while others of us loved it from the moment it was released.

Do you think that album is racist,homophobic (?) and anti-semitic??

1725topp said:

slida23 said:

I'm not sure how valid this statement is, but I can only speak for myself. I thought "The Rainbow Children" was perhaps his most cohesive, focused work of his career(if a little on the long side), and though it's "mellow" in comparison to Prince's salad days, the music is fantastic. It's hard for me to imagine that a real Prince fan would abandon him just because he grew up and wanted to address his blackness in a more direct way.

*

Prince.org was a blazing, all-out barn fire when TRC was released. I'm sure you can search the many threads and very long debates about this album, but folks on this very site called Prince everything from a "reverse racist" to a "homophobe." Many, not all, of his white and LGBTQP fans on this site openly questioned if they could remain Prince fans when TRC was released. To be fair, there were some fans who simply didn't like the music, and other fans stated that they liked the music so much that they could ignore the lyrics, which they found simple, dumb, or just offensive. So, yes, quite a few folks on this site hated TRC when it was released while others of us loved it from the moment it was released.

slida23 said:

onlyforaminute said:

Nope. With me I need to see some real Prince knowledge credentials first before taking anyone seriously who immediately jumps in with some reworked regurgitated criticisms. That's just too easy, since nowadays criticism is somehow seen as an automatic sign of higher knowledge.

Hmmm, is there a Prince test to take? I think the idea that someone would pretend to have an opinion about Prince in order to impress a bunch of strangers on the internet is a strange one. This is very particular and enthusiastic community. Anyway, there is quite literally no way for me to prove that I've ever even listened to one Prince song by typing sentences into a forum. He is not an obscure, seldom discussed artist, and even his bootlegs and b-sides are not to hard to learn about in the era of internet. I could tell you that I have a bootleg cd with a version of Crystal Ball that is much better than the one he officially released. Or maybe I don't. Or that I paid $30 for a vinyl bootleg of the Black Album way back when, and I was disappointed with the record, but after a more recent listen it's better than I thought at the time. Or that I have the rather disappointingly announced official release of his piano rehearsals as a vinyl bootleg, and it sounds like crap, and has a rather low fidelity version of "Baby, You're A Trip" on it as well, but I could also glean all these ideas just by digging into this forum, and I have read a lot of posts on this forum.

Regardless of your opinion on what I've written, simple logic would suggest it comes from someone that has spent some time listening to his music.

I'll have to admit that comment by me was made while still fuming over an article that was obviously written by someone who hasn't been paying attention for the last 2 years, let alone the whole 39. There has been a flurry of articles and opinion pieces made by people who really haven't been following his career but are informed enough to know that critizism will get immediate approval given the "correct" buzz words. I've grown a bit irritated by them. Easy target click bait. Personally, I don't argue with anyone's personal opinion about what they appreciate about Prince's music or what era they prefer over the other as long as they don't cross the line into dictating my preferences. I've appreciated the later era, maybe because for me Prince became more personal and maybe more human. Then again, I've always been a bit selfish about my fandom, and never really appreciated the mass appeal, but that's a personal issue. I see others wanted to be in a fanbase of a chart topping artist and possibly prefer those years.

SkipperLove said:

Do you think that album is racist,homophobic (?) and anti-semitic??

1725topp said:

*

Prince.org was a blazing, all-out barn fire when TRC was released. I'm sure you can search the many threads and very long debates about this album, but folks on this very site called Prince everything from a "reverse racist" to a "homophobe." Many, not all, of his white and LGBTQP fans on this site openly questioned if they could remain Prince fans when TRC was released. To be fair, there were some fans who simply didn't like the music, and other fans stated that they liked the music so much that they could ignore the lyrics, which they found simple, dumb, or just offensive. So, yes, quite a few folks on this site hated TRC when it was released while others of us loved it from the moment it was released.

*

No, I do not. I love it, and it's in my top 10 favorite albums.

"(He was not wearing any underwear, however, and it was clear to see that not everything on the man was tiny.)"

1725topp said:

slida23 said:

I'm not sure how valid this statement is, but I can only speak for myself. I thought "The Rainbow Children" was perhaps his most cohesive, focused work of his career(if a little on the long side), and though it's "mellow" in comparison to Prince's salad days, the music is fantastic. It's hard for me to imagine that a real Prince fan would abandon him just because he grew up and wanted to address his blackness in a more direct way.

*

Prince.org was a blazing, all-out barn fire when TRC was released. I'm sure you can search the many threads and very long debates about this album, but folks on this very site called Prince everything from a "reverse racist" to a "homophobe." Many, not all, of his white and LGBTQP fans on this site openly questioned if they could remain Prince fans when TRC was released. To be fair, there were some fans who simply didn't like the music, and other fans stated that they liked the music so much that they could ignore the lyrics, which they found simple, dumb, or just offensive. So, yes, quite a few folks on this site hated TRC when it was released while others of us loved it from the moment it was released.

I wasn't aware of that at all. I'm aware that it was steeped in JW mythology(I'm not thrilled with that, but knowing nothing about it really, it made for some interesting subject matter), but I mostly didn't find it objectionable(some backwards ideas about women, I suppose). I didn't notice any anti-gay sentiment(although I know he started to speak against it in interviews, which is unfortunate, but I was not aware of those at the time either), and I could actually understand people being upset about that. He began to believe some questionable things. Wanting to address how he felt as a black man in a mostly white world is not something I would fault him for.

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

Me personally I think he lost his edge when he moved into Paisley Park. He reached his dream and coasted the rest of his career. If you compare the Sunset Sound & home studio music with Paisley recorded music there is a dramatic change

I think there is some truth to this, and I wonder why people don't bring it up more often. For all the myth over Paisley Park being Prince's legendary home-studio, basically none of his classic / most famous tracks were recorded there. Like many artists, he seemed to thrive on being on a schedule, with some deadlines, with some limits. The most such he ever accepted resulted in Purple Rain. Sign 'o' the Times was also a result of being restricted by Warners and by his knowledge that he needed something really good after Under the Cherry Moon damaged his rep a bit.

So yeah, I think making 'home recordings' for most of his life after 1987, combined with his firing his entire management / legal staff at the end of 1988 (?) kind of put paid to his peak artistic and commercial years, respectively. I mean, it might have happened anyway, as most -- even the greatest -- artists have a limited period to be in their prime, but I think those c.1988 events really accelerated Prince's end-of-peak years.

ThePanther said:

SanDiegoFunkDaddy said:

Me personally I think he lost his edge when he moved into Paisley Park. He reached his dream and coasted the rest of his career. If you compare the Sunset Sound & home studio music with Paisley recorded music there is a dramatic change

I think there is some truth to this, and I wonder why people don't bring it up more often. For all the myth over Paisley Park being Prince's legendary home-studio, basically none of his classic / most famous tracks were recorded there. Like many artists, he seemed to thrive on being on a schedule, with some deadlines, with some limits. The most such he ever accepted resulted in Purple Rain. Sign 'o' the Times was also a result of being restricted by Warners and by his knowledge that he needed something really good after Under the Cherry Moon damaged his rep a bit.

So yeah, I think making 'home recordings' for most of his life after 1987, combined with his firing his entire management / legal staff at the end of 1988 (?) kind of put paid to his peak artistic and commercial years, respectively. I mean, it might have happened anyway, as most -- even the greatest -- artists have a limited period to be in their prime, but I think those c.1988 events really accelerated Prince's end-of-peak years.

Paisley Park was a great concept but I think SSL consoles made his music sound sterile. The loudness war of the 90's didn't help either

slida23 said:

Something I've learned about Prince fans is that there are all different kinds, and people like different songs and aspects about his music. A song I don't care about at all can be one of someone else's favorites. I am in the "Lovesexy was his creative peak" fan category, and that's part of what this post was about ...

I agree with most of this. 1988/Lovesexy was the last period when it seemed he was trying to push himself into new musical territory - layering tracks in different keys, interesting tempo changes, integrating elaborate Eric Leeds/Atlanta Bliss horn arrangements, etc.

Then for some reason he fell back on making tracks based on one hook/drum pattern/bass line all the way through. It all became a bit lazy. Moving into Paisley Park probably did have something to do with that. He got too comfortable.

And he still never got past his ego. Too much of Prince's music is super self-conscious showing off, putting up a front, not really bearing his soul.

The sad thing is that he was probably in the middle of a creative rebirth. He was listening to Hiatus Kaiyote, trying new approaches with arranger Michael Nelson, working with MonoNeon. He could have reconnected and fit right in with the whole new scene now emerging from Snarky Puppy (Cory Henry, Ghost-Note, ...), Brainfeeder + LA jazz (Thundercat, Kamasi Washington, ...), Vulfpeck (Theo Katzman, Joey Dosik, Corey Wong, ...), etc.

[Edited 8/26/18 13:24pm]