violetcrush said:

purplefam99 said:

classical to me means taught or educated using a certain pedagogy towards the instrument.

it does not mean to me that one is superior to the other. there are many ways to learn and to

assume the classical method is superior is more a mindset. i think she knew some stuff and

he knew some stuff, it was different than what they both knew, so it fascinated them equally.

improvisation scares some people and reading music scares some people. both are masterful

skills to have in music.

Right. I think their indvidual knowledge and natural talent created a great balance for them to share their playing. Hearing Lisa's Visions piece definitely shows she had a very ethereal style, which I think Prince enjoyed. During the P&M tour when he was telling the story of how she started in the band he began playing in a different way and said, "I'm trying to play like her". During the Questlove interview Lisa talked about how she would play while Prince was taking a nap, and he would tell her he had the best dreams while she was playing. He said her playing brought more colors to his music.

he did say she would push extra notes, like using one finger to play two notes, prince however, always did have dense chords in terms of pop music, the chords on his first hit, right at the start, were jazz chords and he never stopped, if you look at any of his sheet music online, you'll see 95 percent of it is either jazz or gospel chords, sometimes he'd do a raspberry beret or a I never could take the place of your man or when doves cry where he used simple major/minor but most of the time, he added some other textures. Even 1999, i thought i was playing it right all these years, just using major/minor, come to find out he was actually using jazz chords for that simple riff.

Pete, please. 7th or 9th degrees are not "Jazz chords".
There are lots of diminished, augmented chords and dorian,
mixolydian and what have you modes in classical music,
but that does not make it "Jazz".

Music theory is useful for a better perception and "spelling" of music.
It can get in the way of creativity if you give it too much importance,
but it's still a very useful tool. Even if you're not trained in classical music,
it's something you can acquire with experience. When Prince gives dominants during rehearsals ("Another Lonely Christmas" sessions), when he writes about "G flat major with an E in the bass" ("Electric Chair"), he obviously knows what he's talking about.

His "I play by ear" in his first interview is in direct contradiction with a statement he gives in the same interview, about the importance of "learning your scales". You can't describe a musical scale if you don't know what a scale is.
His "I'm a genius" posture is half bullshit. He took musical classes. He wasn't just allowed to practice the piano all by himself,
it was school, not daycare. He had good solid bases: you just can't arrange the "For You" a capella harmonies without a good notion of what fourths, a fifths and octaves mean. He sure knew how to blur all of this boring technical stuff under a cloud of purple fog. Clever kid.

[Edited 7/31/18 16:09pm]

OperatingThetan said:

PennyPurple said:

We are not talking about his hip, we are talking about his hands.

There is no evidence he consulted a Dr for pain management for his hands.

There is no evidence that Prince didn't either. As I mentioned we only have scant, fragmentary medical information regarding the final year of Prince's life via (an imperfect) police investigation. If Prince visited a consultant for hand pain in 2010, for example, we would have no knowledge of it. To suggest Prince never consulted a doctor for pain management of any kind at any point during his life is pure conjecture. We simply don't know either way.

I know I'm coming to this conversation late, but that is a very valid point. We don't know what doctors he might have consulted. He could have seen doctors around the globe when he was performing, and if he was not a regular patient (someone they couldn't follow up with) they may have not wanted to prescribe him anything, instead telling him to follow up with his regular doctor.

Also, while prescription drugs are receiving a lot of air play on the news since Prince's passing, in medical fields, prescription drug addictions and dependence have been well-known for awhile. In some cases a doctor may prescribe physical therapy for an issue, instead of prescribing pain medications. In other situations, if the doctor is not familiar with you or your case, they may think you are "drug seeking" if you complain of pains. Prince is a black man who happened to be a rock star. Both of those would scream "drug seeking" to a doctor (unfortunately, even Prince would be subject to unfair and wrong stereotypes). You even see ER doctors, more and more frequently, refusing to give pain medications to patients that come in with pain.

I have chronic vein insufficiency in my legs due to years of getting blood clots. Unfortunately, I can't always tell when the pain in my leg is a result of that or a new clot is forming when it swells up. I went to the ER about a year or two ago with a swollen leg and a lot of pain. There wasn't a new clot and the ER doctor told me to just go home, stay off it, and keep it elevated. He wouldn't prescribe anything for the pain. I was just relieved it wasn't a new clot at that time, which is all I wanted to make sure of. I can deal with the pain. However, my regular doctor got the ER report and the ER doctor put in there that he thought I was "drug seeking". My doctor told me that from then on I was to call him, period. He gave me his cell phone number and his pager number to contact him, because "I know your case. I know you don't complain unless you are in a lot of pain and sometimes not even then. The ER doctors are trained to "see drug seeking behavior", so they see it all the time, even when it isn't there. So you call me and don't you dare go to the ER any more." ER doctors, especially, are denying patients pain medication more and more because of that.

From what I can see, Prince never had a regular doctor. Like most men, (and yes, I'm stereotyping you guys on this one), he probably didn't see the need to go to the doctor routinely and only went when he absolutely had to. No doctor is going to prescribe a patient pain medication routinely if they are not coming in to be seen regularly. I imagine Prince was terrible at following up with doctors if he felt "fine" and probably wouldn't have seen the need to go if his pain was managed, until it wasn't again. But when doctor's prescribe pain medication, they want regular and routine follow ups.

bonatoc said:

Pete, please. 7th or 9th degrees are not "Jazz chords".
There are lots of diminished, augmented chords and dorian,
mixolydian and what have you modes in classical music,
but that does not make it "Jazz".

Music theory is useful for a better perception and "spelling" of music.
It can get in the way of creativity if you give it too much importance,
but it's still a very useful tool. Even if you're not trained in classical music,
it's something you can acquire with experience. When Prince gives dominants during rehearsals ("Another Lonely Christmas" sessions), when he writes about "G flat major with an E in the bass" ("Electric Chair"), he obviously knows what he's talking about.

His "I play by ear" in his first interview is in direct contradiction with a statement he gives in the same interview, about the importance of "learning your scales". You can't describe a musical scale if you don't know what a scale is.
His "I'm a genius" posture is half bullshit. He took musical classes. He wasn't just allowed to practice the piano all by himself,
it was school, not daycare. He had good solid bases: you just can't arrange the "For You" a capella harmonies without a good notion of what fourths, a fifths and octaves mean. He sure knew how to blur all of this boring technical stuff under a cloud of purple fog. Clever kid.

[Edited 7/31/18 16:09pm]

his teacher was a jazzman, john hamilton, who, like any jazzman, could either read or do without it. I knew some fine jazz/church/blues musicians who couldn't read a lick but could understand chord diagrams and understood jazz voicings. I could see him teaching that way too. Knowing chord diagrams and chords doesn't equal being able to read music. Prince said he couldn't read and i don't know why anyone would question that. 95 percent of the rock greats couldn't be bothered to read. I read, but not that well, i compose and it's my instincts that help me, not any theory.

as far as seventh and ninth chords, they have generally been thought of as jazz chords, it was my classical theory teacher who first taught me this, surprised you don't know this. of course it doesn't mean they aren't used anywhere else but primarily in jazz.

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

bonatoc said:

Pete, please. 7th or 9th degrees are not "Jazz chords".
There are lots of diminished, augmented chords and dorian,
mixolydian and what have you modes in classical music,
but that does not make it "Jazz".

Music theory is useful for a better perception and "spelling" of music.
It can get in the way of creativity if you give it too much importance,
but it's still a very useful tool. Even if you're not trained in classical music,
it's something you can acquire with experience. When Prince gives dominants during rehearsals ("Another Lonely Christmas" sessions), when he writes about "G flat major with an E in the bass" ("Electric Chair"), he obviously knows what he's talking about.

His "I play by ear" in his first interview is in direct contradiction with a statement he gives in the same interview, about the importance of "learning your scales". You can't describe a musical scale if you don't know what a scale is.
His "I'm a genius" posture is half bullshit. He took musical classes. He wasn't just allowed to practice the piano all by himself,
it was school, not daycare. He had good solid bases: you just can't arrange the "For You" a capella harmonies without a good notion of what fourths, a fifths and octaves mean. He sure knew how to blur all of this boring technical stuff under a cloud of purple fog. Clever kid.

[Edited 7/31/18 16:09pm]

his teacher was a jazzman, john hamilton, who, like any jazzman, could either read or do without it. I knew some fine jazz/church/blues musicians who couldn't read a lick but could understand chord diagrams and understood jazz voicings. I could see him teaching that way too. Knowing chord diagrams and chords doesn't equal being able to read music. Prince said he couldn't read and i don't know why anyone would question that. 95 percent of the rock greats couldn't be bothered to read. I read, but not that well, i compose and it's my instincts that help me, not any theory.

as far as seventh and ninth chords, they have generally been thought of as jazz chords, it was my classical theory teacher who first taught me this, surprised you don't know this. of course it doesn't mean they aren't used anywhere else but primarily in jazz.

We're on the same track. I didn't state he was fluent in reading.
But he had good, solid bases on chord progressions, and the nature of the chords.
I agree that it is something that can be acquired outside of a classical cursus.
I'm just saying, a Bayou bluesman he was not.

paulludvig said:

Prince knew some chords https://youtu.be/09LwXDDkSdU

You forgot "honestly".

bonatoc said:

PeteSilas said:

his teacher was a jazzman, john hamilton, who, like any jazzman, could either read or do without it. I knew some fine jazz/church/blues musicians who couldn't read a lick but could understand chord diagrams and understood jazz voicings. I could see him teaching that way too. Knowing chord diagrams and chords doesn't equal being able to read music. Prince said he couldn't read and i don't know why anyone would question that. 95 percent of the rock greats couldn't be bothered to read. I read, but not that well, i compose and it's my instincts that help me, not any theory.

as far as seventh and ninth chords, they have generally been thought of as jazz chords, it was my classical theory teacher who first taught me this, surprised you don't know this. of course it doesn't mean they aren't used anywhere else but primarily in jazz.

We're on the same track. I didn't state he was fluent in reading.
But he had good, solid bases on chord progressions, and the nature of the chords.
I agree that it is something that can be acquired outside of a classical cursus.
I'm just saying, a Bayou bluesman he was not.

i took jazz ensemble years ago, scary talent and very humbling, i watched these guys get up and just improvise at the audition, i couldn't do shit when it was my turn, very humbling. there were a couple other pianists who were either jazz or church based, one couldn't read at all but he was plain gifted at just improvising and accompanying. I know he had a real good ear and that he could read the symbols out of the fakebook. I think the other guy could read a little bit but i'm not sure, it was a revelation seeing them do that, it blew me away really. We've all got different gifts and i've always told myself i'd get back to jazz but i haven't had the time. I learned to read though because i knew there was no way i'd get songs i covered to sound just like the record without it, and that's what i wanted. when i worked in dueling piano bar i'd see people just play the fake versions of songs and it ruined the songs for me so i never wanted to do that. Reading and hardwork is the only way to really get what was really done for me. sometimes i use my ear to figure out solos or what have you and i'll change the written scores because the arrangements are never perfect but they are usually better than what i would have gotten alone. At any rate, not many rock musicians read. the ones that do often don't even use the ability. I've only seen a few musicians at open mics who put up a music stand, usually acoustic guitarists or something.

bonatoc said:

paulludvig said:

Prince knew some chords https://youtu.be/09LwXDDkSdU

Ouch!!!! Quincy dissing Prince. Wow. Love what Prince did with it though

violetcrush said:

paulludvig said:

Prince knew some chords https://youtu.be/09LwXDDkSdU

Ouch!!!! Quincy dissing Prince. Wow. Love what Prince did with it though

i'd never seen that, i heard those statements from Q, it looks like the interview was the same video used during P's AMA lifetime award introduction, obviously they didn't include that part. As far as Q's opinion, it's kinda a loaded opinion, Prince was a pop musician, not a jazz musician,if he played like herbie hancock he probably wouldn't be a legend at all. I always thought q's statement was strange, he plays piano too and not very good, he doesn't need to, he uses it to compose, strange for him to diss Prince. So, don't know what's behind it. "heard it before"? you can say that for anything really.

PeteSilas said:

violetcrush said:

Right. I think their indvidual knowledge and natural talent created a great balance for them to share their playing. Hearing Lisa's Visions piece definitely shows she had a very ethereal style, which I think Prince enjoyed. During the P&M tour when he was telling the story of how she started in the band he began playing in a different way and said, "I'm trying to play like her". During the Questlove interview Lisa talked about how she would play while Prince was taking a nap, and he would tell her he had the best dreams while she was playing. He said her playing brought more colors to his music.

he did say she would push extra notes, like using one finger to play two notes, prince however, always did have dense chords in terms of pop music, the chords on his first hit, right at the start, were jazz chords and he never stopped, if you look at any of his sheet music online, you'll see 95 percent of it is either jazz or gospel chords, sometimes he'd do a raspberry beret or a I never could take the place of your man or when doves cry where he used simple major/minor but most of the time, he added some other textures. Even 1999, i thought i was playing it right all these years, just using major/minor, come to find out he was actually using jazz chords for that simple riff.

Here is a 2009 interview I just found with Lisa discussing her first meeting with Prince....

*

"When I first went to Minneapolis to meet prince and stay for what I thought would be just a few months, Prince picked me up at the airport. I walked off the plane... it was June. It was warm and a little humid. Prince was waiting for me. I could see him talking on a payphone... remember those? They were all over the place in the 80's... in fact i think it was 1980. I found out later that he was on the phone with his girlfriend, Kim, telling her what I looked like and what I was wearing... anyway... he picked me up and drove me in his little FIAT to his house in WAYZATA. He took the back roads and showed me the countryside. It was really beautiful, train tracks and long views. This was Minnesota alright!

ya, she had some classical training for sure.

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

he did say she would push extra notes, like using one finger to play two notes, prince however, always did have dense chords in terms of pop music, the chords on his first hit, right at the start, were jazz chords and he never stopped, if you look at any of his sheet music online, you'll see 95 percent of it is either jazz or gospel chords, sometimes he'd do a raspberry beret or a I never could take the place of your man or when doves cry where he used simple major/minor but most of the time, he added some other textures. Even 1999, i thought i was playing it right all these years, just using major/minor, come to find out he was actually using jazz chords for that simple riff.

Here is a 2009 interview I just found with Lisa discussing her first meeting with Prince....

*

"When I first went to Minneapolis to meet prince and stay for what I thought would be just a few months, Prince picked me up at the airport. I walked off the plane... it was June. It was warm and a little humid. Prince was waiting for me. I could see him talking on a payphone... remember those? They were all over the place in the 80's... in fact i think it was 1980. I found out later that he was on the phone with his girlfriend, Kim, telling her what I looked like and what I was wearing... anyway... he picked me up and drove me in his little FIAT to his house in WAYZATA. He took the back roads and showed me the countryside. It was really beautiful, train tracks and long views. This was Minnesota alright!

I lit a cigarette, which I can't believe now when I think of it because he hates smoking! But he let me smoke in his car. He was very polite. We were both VERY QUIET and shy. It was pretty sweet actually. Lots of nervous smiles back and forth. We got to his house and he pointed to the piano at the bottom of the stairs. I went and played while he went to make us some tea. I knew he would hear me so I tried to act like I was casually playing the hardest Mozart piece I knew. Kim told me later that he was standing at the top of the stairs wide eyed and excited. "She's better than I thought!"... ok so... that was my first day meeting him. "

*

So, if she can play a difficult Mozart piece it would stand to reason that she had some classical training...

PeteSilas said:

paulludvig said:

PeteSilas said:

ya, she had some classical training for sure.

If by classical training you mean piano lessons, sure.

god, talk about beating a dead horse, classically trained means piano lessons, how many times do i have to say it. Some people just can't handle the fact that they are unknowledgable about something.

Prince's(R.I.P.) gifted hands is what created the intricate Minneapolis sound. I'm glad he went out playing the instrument that I preferred him to play the KEYBOARDS. His chords were unmatched by ANYONE! Elton,Billy Joel,Billy Preston,Liberace,D'angelo with the exception of Stevie Wonder. Whom he was often compared to said it best.

"If MJ was the King of pop Prince was the EMPEROR"!

[Edited 8/8/18 8:36am]

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Prince's(R.I.P.) gifted hands is what created the intricate Minneapolis sound. I'm glad he went out playing the instrument that I preferred him to play the KEYBOARDS. His chords were unmatched by ANYONE! Elton,Billy Joel,Billy Preston,Liberace,D'angelo with the exception of Stevie Wonder. Whom he was often compared to said it best.

"If MJ was the King of pop Prince was the EMPEROR"!

[Edited 8/8/18 8:36am]

Don't think so.

PeteSilas said:

paulludvig said:

PeteSilas said: If by classical training you mean piano lessons, sure.

god, talk about beating a dead horse, classically trained means piano lessons, how many times do i have to say it. Some people just can't handle the fact that they are unknowledgable about something.

Right, Pete. Round and round we go....however, based on prior/other threads Mr. Paul does not think very highly of Lisa, Wendy, or Susannah So, I think that is more of the issue here....

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Prince's(R.I.P.) gifted hands is what created the intricate Minneapolis sound. I'm glad he went out playing the instrument that I preferred him to play the KEYBOARDS. His chords were unmatched by ANYONE! Elton,Billy Joel,Billy Preston,Liberace,D'angelo with the exception of Stevie Wonder. Whom he was often compared to said it best.

"If MJ was the King of pop Prince was the EMPEROR"!

[Edited 8/8/18 8:36am]

Prince was for sure a beautiful and gifted piano player, especially with not having any formal training/lessons. However, I think our discussion was specifically regarding the ability to read and play classical music (Mozart, Bach, Beetoven, Chopin, etc) We were discussing Lisa Coleman playing classical music for him, and exposing him more to that type of playing.

*

Then, the debate went further into "what does it mean to be "classically trained?" - is it necessary to have attended a Conservatory for formal training to be considered to have been "trained" in classical music, or would regular lessons resulting in the ability to read and play classical music also be deemed worthy of being "classically trained"?

*

In my opinion, the ability to read and fluently play classical pieces supports the label of having been "classically trained", whether you attended Julliard School in NYC, or were just taught by someone who attended a credible Conservatory/Music School.

[Edited 8/8/18 11:32am]

redrockballa said:

casi1 said:

redrockballa said:

plus when he did the atlanta show it was 1 video where he apologize and said he had been under the weather and he moved his hand a certain way but had 2 use the other hand 2 move that hand. something definitely wasn’t right

Oh I remember that. I initially thought it was odd but chalked it up to him over-exaggerating the hand motion since he didn’t appear to be in distress when he did it... but maybe there was more to it. I didn’t know about P’s hand concern until I read the JH report but in hindsight, it makes a whole lot of sense. I used to play piano and violin without any issues and I have been playing guitar for only a few years now but recently, I experienced random tingling and pins/needles in my fingers. That went away on its own after a month or so. Then I must have twisted my hand wrong playing chords one day and the result was a slow build up to straight up finger pain. Felt like a bad strain, arthritis, and inflammation all combined. I had trouble grabbing a doorknob. Woke up with ‘frozen stiff hand’ a couple of times but it was random. Some days fine, other days hell. To make a long story short, it was an inflamed nerve and the only thing that helped in the moment of pain was shaking the hand to loosen it. I did carpal tunnel exercises during breaks. Normal pain pills did nothing for the nerve pain (and doctors tend to want to not give additional pain pills if main ones don’t produce results). Anti-Inflammation meds helped but only temporarily. It was so hard finding a solution. My hand is better now but that’s mainly due to resting it and letting the nerve recover. I’m not saying that this is what happened to Prince but I can totally see how hand pain could have played a major role in how things ended for him.

that was probably prince's main problem, he never rested, never that I know of. that business will run you ragged if you let it, I read that elvis had a hemorraghed voicee box when he died, he was getting ready to go on yet another tour. He had all kinds of issues, all kinds, glaucoma, impacted colon, high blood pressure, probably major depression. Actually, i tend to think his actual weight was the least of his issues, he was only 221 pounds when he died, today that wouldn't raise an eyebrow but obesity wasn't nearly as common then.

I guess, as a musician and an athlete, my biggest pains definitely come from the injuries from working out, rarely have i had real problems from practicing but they do come up sometimes. as i mentioned, my shoulder has been bothering me the last couple weeks but it hadn't bothered me in over 15 years, i did have a case of carpal tunnel/bad swelling about 14 years ago but it went away on it's own. I rarely have pains other than fatigue and as i said before, it's not the pain that might make it hard to play, it's just plain fatigue, playing for 8 hours or more, eventually you do hit a point of diminishing returns for sure, times when it actually feels like it's counterproductive to practice but it's so hard to tell, sometimes those are the times when you are actually making the biggest breakthroughs.

violetcrush said:

casi1 said:

paulludvig said:

violetcrush said:

Right, Pete. Round and round we go....however, based on prior/other threads Mr. Paul does not think very highly of Lisa, Wendy, or Susannah So, I think that is more of the issue here....

I think highly of Lisa.

Okay, so the twins are your issue, but you have still been arguing about Lisa's classical background.

violetcrush said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Prince's(R.I.P.) gifted hands is what created the intricate Minneapolis sound. I'm glad he went out playing the instrument that I preferred him to play the KEYBOARDS. His chords were unmatched by ANYONE! Elton,Billy Joel,Billy Preston,Liberace,D'angelo with the exception of Stevie Wonder. Whom he was often compared to said it best.

"If MJ was the King of pop Prince was the EMPEROR"!

[Edited 8/8/18 8:36am]

Prince was for sure a beautiful and gifted piano player, especially with not having any formal training/lessons. However, I think our discussion was specifically regarding the ability to read and play classical music (Mozart, Bach, Beetoven, Chopin, etc) We were discussing Lisa Coleman playing classical music for him, and exposing him more to that type of playing.

*

Then, the debate went further into "what does it mean to be "classically trained?" - is it necessary to have attended a Conservatory for formal training to be considered to have been "trained" in classical music, or would regular lessons resulting in the ability to read and play classical music also be deemed worthy of being "classically trained"?

*

In my opinion, the ability to read and fluently play classical pieces supports the label of having been "classically trained", whether you attended Julliard School in NYC, or were just taught by someone who attended a credible Conservatory/Music School.

[Edited 8/8/18 11:32am]

Lisa is a beautifully, trained, classical, pianist & my ALL TIME favorite Revolution member. I nearly died when she requested me on Instagram. I'm partial to keyboard players since I dibble & dabble with them myself. She's my favorite Prince keyboardest besides Cassie.

But Prince still slays ALL of them to me.

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Lisa is a beautifully, trained, classical, pianist & my ALL TIME favorite Revolution member. I nearly died when she requested me on Instagram. I'm partial to keyboard players since I dibble & dabble with them myself. She's my favorite Prince keyboardest besides Cassie.

But Prince still slays ALL of them to me.

Who haven't you dibble & dabbled with?

violetcrush said: