jjam said:

violetcrush said:

Pete!!! You crack me up!! Listen, I'm a woman and I can tell you that in my experience with some men, I've never seen bigger "cry babies" when it comes to ailments - whether it be a cold/flu, or a muscle pull. You'd have thought they were on their deathbed. So, it really goes both ways - not a "man" or a "woman" thing.....it's a "people" thing. Some just handle pain/injury better than others.

*

I have no doubt that Prince was having hand pain/numbness/aching, etc. He played practically non-stop for 40+ years. He wasn't playing for a few hours a day - it was most of the day, everyday. The joints can only take so much.

*

Regarding pain from computer use - absolutely realistic for those with "desk jobs" who spend 8 hours a day sitting at the computer. Prince did not do that. He had people doing his computer work for him. Hans Martin Buff just stated in an interview that he would type all of the liner notes and info for the albums, because he knew how to type. People like Steve Parke were the ones spending all day on the computer. Yes, Prince used his PC for email, internet, etc., but that would not cause long term pain.

This is about the combination of ergonomic hand use (piano/guitar for example) and non-ergonomic hand use (computer, not necessarily being used for a long period of time daily). The combination of the two is what is contributing to hand pain/tingling issues for many musicians.

But I do agree about men and pain. Imagine a man having to go through period pain and childbirth. You wouldn't hear the end of it.

True Dat!!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm just wondering why we have so much of these aches and pains in this country, I don't think they have as much of this in more primitive societies and I know that arthritis has been found to be absent in some studies of my people the indians, they'd find skelotons, 50-60 or whatever and no evidence of any conditions like that. A psychologist named Jordan Peterson has said there is some correlation between joint pain and depression, thus addiction. Probably something in our lifestyles, diet, or what have you. I'm getting older and i get pains too but I have a good reason for it, i do moves and hard labor jobs and even still, 95 percent of the time, the pain is nothing unmanageable without pills. my body does alway hurt but not that badly where it really bothers me, sure, i notice it but it's not that bad. I just don't get how some of these people are always in pain. And, a few years ago, when i worked at a university i noticed young students coming in on crutches with ice packs all the time, i found it really, really hard to believe they hurt themselves that bad playing volleyball, i thought it was wierd because I'd broken bones in martial arts and not really be aware of it until a few hours to a day later, i think we might be breeding crybabies. and no,, prince was not that, in fact, everyone has said that he didn't want to say anything about his pains. with prince, i'm just wondering if he's using some excuse to get the meds, the "can't play piano" statement to Judith was wierd, as a pianist, it's not the pain that makes my playing impossible, it's the seeming fatigue, the swelling in the joints from overuse not the pain that makes playing worse.

PeteSilas said:

i'm just wondering why we have so much of these aches and pains in this country, I don't think they have as much of this in more primitive societies and I know that arthritis has been found to be absent in some studies of my people the indians, they'd find skelotons, 50-60 or whatever and no evidence of any conditions like that. A psychologist named Jordan Peterson has said there is some correlation between joint pain and depression, thus addiction. Probably something in our lifestyles, diet, or what have you. I'm getting older and i get pains too but I have a good reason for it, i do moves and hard labor jobs and even still, 95 percent of the time, the pain is nothing unmanageable without pills. my body does alway hurt but not that badly where it really bothers me, sure, i notice it but it's not that bad. I just don't get how some of these people are always in pain. And, a few years ago, when i worked at a university i noticed young students coming in on crutches with ice packs all the time, i found it really, really hard to believe they hurt themselves that bad playing volleyball, i thought it was wierd because I'd broken bones in martial arts and not really be aware of it until a few hours to a day later, i think we might be breeding crybabies. and no,, prince was not that, in fact, everyone has said that he didn't want to say anything about his pains. with prince, i'm just wondering if he's using some excuse to get the meds, the "can't play piano" statement to Judith was wierd, as a pianist, it's not the pain that makes my playing impossible, it's the seeming fatigue, the swelling in the joints from overuse not the pain that makes playing worse.

Oh, there is definitely a correlation between depression and physical pain. I also think that Opioid addiction ultimately exacerbates pain issues along with the relief the meds initially bring to the body. However, there are many out there who have actual physical pain without the psychological impact involved.

PeteSilas said:

i'm just wondering why we have so much of these aches and pains in this country, I don't think they have as much of this in more primitive societies and I know that arthritis has been found to be absent in some studies of my people the indians, they'd find skelotons, 50-60 or whatever and no evidence of any conditions like that. A psychologist named Jordan Peterson has said there is some correlation between joint pain and depression, thus addiction. Probably something in our lifestyles, diet, or what have you. I'm getting older and i get pains too but I have a good reason for it, i do moves and hard labor jobs and even still, 95 percent of the time, the pain is nothing unmanageable without pills. my body does alway hurt but not that badly where it really bothers me, sure, i notice it but it's not that bad. I just don't get how some of these people are always in pain. And, a few years ago, when i worked at a university i noticed young students coming in on crutches with ice packs all the time, i found it really, really hard to believe they hurt themselves that bad playing volleyball, i thought it was wierd because I'd broken bones in martial arts and not really be aware of it until a few hours to a day later, i think we might be breeding crybabies. and no,, prince was not that, in fact, everyone has said that he didn't want to say anything about his pains. with prince, i'm just wondering if he's using some excuse to get the meds, the "can't play piano" statement to Judith was wierd, as a pianist, it's not the pain that makes my playing impossible, it's the seeming fatigue, the swelling in the joints from overuse not the pain that makes playing worse.

In the hospital biz, pain recently became the 4th vital sign after temperature, pulse, resp, blood pressure. I feel there was an enormous push to over-medicate. Isn't it true that Americans use 80% of the world's opiates. i do feel feel we are getting softer in many ways.

peggyon said:

PeteSilas said:

i'm just wondering why we have so much of these aches and pains in this country, I don't think they have as much of this in more primitive societies and I know that arthritis has been found to be absent in some studies of my people the indians, they'd find skelotons, 50-60 or whatever and no evidence of any conditions like that. A psychologist named Jordan Peterson has said there is some correlation between joint pain and depression, thus addiction. Probably something in our lifestyles, diet, or what have you. I'm getting older and i get pains too but I have a good reason for it, i do moves and hard labor jobs and even still, 95 percent of the time, the pain is nothing unmanageable without pills. my body does alway hurt but not that badly where it really bothers me, sure, i notice it but it's not that bad. I just don't get how some of these people are always in pain. And, a few years ago, when i worked at a university i noticed young students coming in on crutches with ice packs all the time, i found it really, really hard to believe they hurt themselves that bad playing volleyball, i thought it was wierd because I'd broken bones in martial arts and not really be aware of it until a few hours to a day later, i think we might be breeding crybabies. and no,, prince was not that, in fact, everyone has said that he didn't want to say anything about his pains. with prince, i'm just wondering if he's using some excuse to get the meds, the "can't play piano" statement to Judith was wierd, as a pianist, it's not the pain that makes my playing impossible, it's the seeming fatigue, the swelling in the joints from overuse not the pain that makes playing worse.

In the hospital biz, pain recently became the 4th vital sign after temperature, pulse, resp, blood pressure. I feel there was an enormous push to over-medicate. Isn't it true that Americans use 80% of the world's opiates. i do feel feel we are getting softer in many ways.

Agreed

PennyPurple said:

paulludvig said:

206Michelle said:

paulludvig said:

When people say Lisa had classical training (or Elton John or Billy Joel), what exactly do they mean? Which conservotary did she attend? Having piano lessons is not the same thing as being classicaly trained.

Elton John attended the Royal Academy or Music, one of the top conservatories in England.

well, to me it would mean anyone that had lessons from a teacher who was classically trained, taught to play some of the classical repertoire, learned the "proper" physical technique and learned to read. Most rock musicians are a world away from that, many self-taught, using what feels natural or using whatever jazz/blues/rock/country mentors they could find. I once saw prince play piano with one finger folded under his hand, basically playing with with a different knuckle, which i highly doubt any classical teacher would tolerate. I took few classical lessons and like most things euro derived, there is a lot of pretense, a lot of repression of the individual "we do it like this and only like this" etc.., and the playing of music strictly as it was composed. the conservatory is only one place tofind classical training and probably one of the latter places after a person has played for years.

206Michelle said:

rogifan said:

206Michelle said:

Yes, Penny, seeking help from a physician would have been a very sensible course of action for Prince to take regarding his pain. However, as we have discussed on various threads other than this one, our beloved Prince had a bit of an aversion to doctors. I’m not 100% clear on why he disliked doctors. Was it due to concerns related to his privacy? Did the hospital cause him to have flashbacks, including flashbacks about his son, who spent his entire life of six days in a hospital? Did Prince prefer to turn to God for healing rather than modern medicine? Was Prince one of the many American men who, like my husband, needs prodding or "pulling teeth" in order to go to the doctor? Is the answer some or all of the above? Who knows?

I’m a woman and I hate going to the doctor. I only go when I have no other choice.

I posited that it was the cultural memory of doctors in the black community, it's the same way with my people, Indians, we don't trust doctors, i have many firsthand experiences of just vile things they've done. I don't like them and i don't trust them, i also realize that sometime i might need them. It's common with black people too. Whether that was it or not with Prince who knows. As private and controlling as he was i could see those being the reasons. he seemed to try to lie a lot about things regarding the drugs/pain which is why i say i don't know how bad his hands hurt, was that a lie too? One think I do know about pain is that non-use just makes it worse, that is, when i play piano or I workout, those pains subside when i get into things. now, of course, that's not to say that you can't overdo things, just last week i felt a twinge in my left shoulder from banging on the piano, a few years ago, the same spot, a ligament, really stretched out when i played piano and then went to do my martial arts workout, hitting the bag, the same shoulder lost power, at that time, i was still a little young so i tried to push through it, i learned the hard way, when you hurt yourself or feel the intitial twinge, stop. don't be macho, don't be tough, stop immediately. I could see Prince having a hard time with that, in fact, he was a guy who, didn't he break his ankle and continue a show once? tough dude.

violetcrush said:

jjam said:

This is about the combination of ergonomic hand use (piano/guitar for example) and non-ergonomic hand use (computer, not necessarily being used for a long period of time daily). The combination of the two is what is contributing to hand pain/tingling issues for many musicians.

But I do agree about men and pain. Imagine a man having to go through period pain and childbirth. You wouldn't hear the end of it.

True Dat!!!!!!!!!!!!

PeteSilas said:

206Michelle said:

paulludvig said: Elton John attended the Royal Academy or Music, one of the top conservatories in England.

well, to me it would mean anyone that had lessons from a teacher who was classically trained, taught to play some of the classical repertoire, learned the "proper" physical technique and learned to read. Most rock musicians are a world away from that, many self-taught, using what feels natural or using whatever jazz/blues/rock/country mentors they could find. I once saw prince play piano with one finger folded under his hand, basically playing with with a different knuckle, which i highly doubt any classical teacher would tolerate. I took few classical lessons and like most things euro derived, there is a lot of pretense, a lot of repression of the individual "we do it like this and only like this" etc.., and the playing of music strictly as it was composed. the conservatory is only one place tofind classical training and probably one of the latter places after a person has played for years.

From what Lisa Coleman has stated, whether it was attending a specific school, home lessons, or both - she knew how to read and play classical pieces. She has stated that she explained to Prince and his Father that if you know how to read music and play classical pieces you, for the most part, can play anything. Lisa was not a "rock" musician first. She stated she did not even know who Prince was when she sent him her tape for the spot in the band. Both her Father and the Mr Melvoin were quite successful in the business during her childhood, so I would imagine they would have had the connections to get her the appropriate classical training in her younger years. There are probably many classical pianists who can't really play free-form or rock/blues very well if they've been trained to play a certain way. Lisa stated during her interview with Questlove that her Dad wanted her to continue with classical music.

No, the ladies jack him off.

PeteSilas said:

rogifan said:

206Michelle said: I’m a woman and I hate going to the doctor. I only go when I have no other choice.

I posited that it was the cultural memory of doctors in the black community, it's the same way with my people, Indians, we don't trust doctors, i have many firsthand experiences of just vile things they've done. I don't like them and i don't trust them, i also realize that sometime i might need them. It's common with black people too. Whether that was it or not with Prince who knows. As private and controlling as he was i could see those being the reasons. he seemed to try to lie a lot about things regarding the drugs/pain which is why i say i don't know how bad his hands hurt, was that a lie too? One think I do know about pain is that non-use just makes it worse, that is, when i play piano or I workout, those pains subside when i get into things. now, of course, that's not to say that you can't overdo things, just last week i felt a twinge in my left shoulder from banging on the piano, a few years ago, the same spot, a ligament, really stretched out when i played piano and then went to do my martial arts workout, hitting the bag, the same shoulder lost power, at that time, i was still a little young so i tried to push through it, i learned the hard way, when you hurt yourself or feel the intitial twinge, stop. don't be macho, don't be tough, stop immediately. I could see Prince having a hard time with that, in fact, he was a guy who, didn't he break his ankle and continue a show once? tough dude.

Yes, Susan Rogers has stated that Prince would never miss a show, regardless of how sick he was. He would take Sudafed or other meds and go on with the show. I think it ties in with the refusal to show any weakness or vulnerability - whether physical or emotional, as well as, the pressure of canceling a show that thousands have paid for and are excited to attend, or band rehearsal, or any other of the many things he controlled on a daily basis. Also, the privacy/trust factor with exposing his ailments to a stranger - allbeit a licensed Doctor - but to him still a stranger.

2freaky4church1 said:

No, the ladies jack him off.

???

206Michelle said:

violetcrush said:

paulludvig said:

violetcrush said:

From what Lisa Coleman has stated, whether it was attending a specific school, home lessons, or both - she knew how to read and play classical pieces. She has stated that she explained to Prince and his Father that if you know how to read music and play classical pieces you, for the most part, can play anything. Lisa was not a "rock" musician first. She stated she did not even know who Prince was when she sent him her tape for the spot in the band. Both her Father and the Mr Melvoin were quite successful in the business during her childhood, so I would imagine they would have had the connections to get her the appropriate classical training in her younger years. There are probably many classical pianists who can't really play free-form or rock/blues very well if they've been trained to play a certain way. Lisa stated during her interview with Questlove that her Dad wanted her to continue with classical music.

What Lisa describes is normal middle class upbringing which has always included learning at least one instrument to some degree. To be a classical pianist is something far more exclusive.

My impression is that they were not "normal middle class" folks. Seems they had a pretty charmed childhood. When your Fathers are playing on the Pet Sounds sessions, many of the Motown records, good friends with Quincy Jones, and President of NARAS - I would say they were more than "middle class" people....

*

Lisa has not referred to herself as specifically a "classical pianist" - as in, making a living playing classical music. She stated she has been classically trained. To me, this translates to - if you give her a piece of classical music she can read it, and fluently play the piece.

[Edited 7/31/18 8:37am]

bonatoc said:

violetcrush said:

paulludvig said:

violetcrush said: What Lisa describes is normal middle class upbringing which has always included learning at least one instrument to some degree. To be a classical pianist is something far more exclusive.

My impression is that they were not "normal middle class" folks. Seems they had a pretty charmed childhood. When your Fathers are playing on the Pet Sounds sessions, many of the Motown records, good friends with Quincy Jones, and President of NARAS - I would say they were more than "middle class" people....

*

Lisa has not referred to herself as specifically a "classical pianist" - as in, making a living playing classical music. She stated she has been classically trained. To me, this translates to - if you give her a piece of classical music she can read it, and fluently play the piece.

[Edited 7/31/18 8:37am]

yes i think she was exposed to music theory and knew how to read music. and was responsible for

learning classical pieces as a student, but i don't think she is a classical pianist. For instance

a lot of great choreographers were classically trained in ballet and know all the proper positions

and techniques of ballet dancers but for many reasons did not become ballet dancers. (probably due to body style and how the execution of the movement looked on their bodies but they have

the knowledge of the movement and how certain positions relate to others and can share knowledge.

i think to what ever level she was classically trained she was able to share her piano knowledge.

given that she joined him young and didnt go to major in music in college i am guessing she had

lesson from a teacher from an early age till mid teens. my guess.

She was giving PRince's father advice about piano playing? Did she say that?

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

well, to me it would mean anyone that had lessons from a teacher who was classically trained, taught to play some of the classical repertoire, learned the "proper" physical technique and learned to read. Most rock musicians are a world away from that, many self-taught, using what feels natural or using whatever jazz/blues/rock/country mentors they could find. I once saw prince play piano with one finger folded under his hand, basically playing with with a different knuckle, which i highly doubt any classical teacher would tolerate. I took few classical lessons and like most things euro derived, there is a lot of pretense, a lot of repression of the individual "we do it like this and only like this" etc.., and the playing of music strictly as it was composed. the conservatory is only one place tofind classical training and probably one of the latter places after a person has played for years.

From what Lisa Coleman has stated, whether it was attending a specific school, home lessons, or both - she knew how to read and play classical pieces. She has stated that she explained to Prince and his Father that if you know how to read music and play classical pieces you, for the most part, can play anything. Lisa was not a "rock" musician first. She stated she did not even know who Prince was when she sent him her tape for the spot in the band. Both her Father and the Mr Melvoin were quite successful in the business during her childhood, so I would imagine they would have had the connections to get her the appropriate classical training in her younger years. There are probably many classical pianists who can't really play free-form or rock/blues very well if they've been trained to play a certain way. Lisa stated during her interview with Questlove that her Dad wanted her to continue with classical music.

SkipperLove said:

purplefam99 said:

paulludvig said:

SkipperLove said:

She was giving PRince's father advice about piano playing? Did she say that?

Prince's father new how to read and write music. Probably more so tham Lisa.

That is not what I have read - at least not classical music. Do you have a specific source on his knowledge or playing of classical music? I have read that his playing was very obscure.

paulludvig said:

purplefam99 said:

yes i think she was exposed to music theory and knew how to read music. and was responsible for

learning classical pieces as a student, but i don't think she is a classical pianist. For instance

a lot of great choreographers were classically trained in ballet and know all the proper positions

and techniques of ballet dancers but for many reasons did not become ballet dancers. (probably due to body style and how the execution of the movement looked on their bodies but they have

the knowledge of the movement and how certain positions relate to others and can share knowledge.

i think to what ever level she was classically trained she was able to share her piano knowledge.

given that she joined him young and didnt go to major in music in college i am guessing she had

lesson from a teacher from an early age till mid teens. my guess.

She had piano lessons. Like millions of girls and boys. There is really nothing special about that. She is not "classically trained".

Again - she NEVER stated that she was a "classical pianist". She said she can read and play classical music. Prince could not. She could also create bigger sounds by using 2 or more fingers. Prince stated this in the 1985 RS interview, and Wendy and Lisa discussed it during the Questlove interview. She also stated in that interview that when she first arrived in MN and played the piano in is basement at his house she played Bach piece, because she knew he was listening upstairs.

paulludvig said:

purplefam99 said:

yes i think she was exposed to music theory and knew how to read music. and was responsible for

learning classical pieces as a student, but i don't think she is a classical pianist. For instance

a lot of great choreographers were classically trained in ballet and know all the proper positions

and techniques of ballet dancers but for many reasons did not become ballet dancers. (probably due to body style and how the execution of the movement looked on their bodies but they have

the knowledge of the movement and how certain positions relate to others and can share knowledge.

i think to what ever level she was classically trained she was able to share her piano knowledge.

given that she joined him young and didnt go to major in music in college i am guessing she had

lesson from a teacher from an early age till mid teens. my guess.

She had piano lessons. Like millions of girls and boys. There is really nothing special about that. She is not "classically trained".

"piano lessons" past a certain point would be considered "classically trained" we're not talking about the boy or girl who is forced to play, hates it and never really learns to play. i don't think there are many schools dedicated to teaching small children music, i think there is that japanese one, but you don't hear about any others in the us at least. If your mentor/teacher has a classical background, knows proper technique then you are recieving classical training. I, myself, have had very little classical training, i know how to read but I certainly would not consider myself anywhere near "classically trained" but I have had some. I don't know how big her repertoire was when she met prince but apparently he was knocked out by her mozart.

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

well, to me it would mean anyone that had lessons from a teacher who was classically trained, taught to play some of the classical repertoire, learned the "proper" physical technique and learned to read. Most rock musicians are a world away from that, many self-taught, using what feels natural or using whatever jazz/blues/rock/country mentors they could find. I once saw prince play piano with one finger folded under his hand, basically playing with with a different knuckle, which i highly doubt any classical teacher would tolerate. I took few classical lessons and like most things euro derived, there is a lot of pretense, a lot of repression of the individual "we do it like this and only like this" etc.., and the playing of music strictly as it was composed. the conservatory is only one place tofind classical training and probably one of the latter places after a person has played for years.

From what Lisa Coleman has stated, whether it was attending a specific school, home lessons, or both - she knew how to read and play classical pieces. She has stated that she explained to Prince and his Father that if you know how to read music and play classical pieces you, for the most part, can play anything. Lisa was not a "rock" musician first. She stated she did not even know who Prince was when she sent him her tape for the spot in the band. Both her Father and the Mr Melvoin were quite successful in the business during her childhood, so I would imagine they would have had the connections to get her the appropriate classical training in her younger years. There are probably many classical pianists who can't really play free-form or rock/blues very well if they've been trained to play a certain way. Lisa stated during her interview with Questlove that her Dad wanted her to continue with classical music.

no, i general, classical musicians these days are not taught "free form" or improvisation, from what i understand, beethoven and the old masters did improvise but that was lost because no one had a way to record that. most classical musicians are encouraged to play pieces only as written, they lambasted liberace because he added his own flair to his classical rerpertoire and the classical world shunned him, he's one of my faves regardless. that's not to say some classically trained musicians don't venture beyond their origins, many do, many have so much talent they can pretty much pick up anything. But i'd say most musicians find one style to master and stick with it. Prince had his own characteristic style which really didn't change that much over the years, although I happen to think he showed brilliantly what he could do best at the end.

classical to me means taught or educated using a certain pedagogy towards the instrument.

it does not mean to me that one is superior to the other. there are many ways to learn and to

assume the classical method is superior is more a mindset. i think she knew some stuff and

he knew some stuff, it was different than what they both knew, so it fascinated them equally.

improvisation scares some people and reading music scares some people. both are masterful

skills to have in music.

purplefam99 said:

classical to me means taught or educated using a certain pedagogy towards the instrument.

it does not mean to me that one is superior to the other. there are many ways to learn and to

assume the classical method is superior is more a mindset. i think she knew some stuff and

he knew some stuff, it was different than what they both knew, so it fascinated them equally.

improvisation scares some people and reading music scares some people. both are masterful

skills to have in music.

Ya, duke ellington once said that the world greatest violinist can't do a lot of things, his point was that there are a million different facets to music. And whether or not lisa could sight read, I don't know, if she could it wouldn't be a matter of just being a classical musician, that's another seperate skill with many many different levels. I once read that college piano students only learn one or two pieces per quarter and that's with all their time devoted to playing/music, it's all a lot of hard work as I can attest. I would never classify myself, nor would I ever say i'm even very good, other people say that but what do they know? I know, i know what i can and can't do, if people like it, i love it but i still know there are a million people who can do things better. I've seen thousands of pianists over the years, all styles, different attitudes, different backgrounds.

purplefam99 said:

classical to me means taught or educated using a certain pedagogy towards the instrument.

it does not mean to me that one is superior to the other. there are many ways to learn and to

assume the classical method is superior is more a mindset. i think she knew some stuff and

he knew some stuff, it was different than what they both knew, so it fascinated them equally.

improvisation scares some people and reading music scares some people. both are masterful

skills to have in music.

Right. I think their indvidual knowledge and natural talent created a great balance for them to share their playing. Hearing Lisa's Visions piece definitely shows she had a very ethereal style, which I think Prince enjoyed. During the P&M tour when he was telling the story of how she started in the band he began playing in a different way and said, "I'm trying to play like her". During the Questlove interview Lisa talked about how she would play while Prince was taking a nap, and he would tell her he had the best dreams while she was playing. He said her playing brought more colors to his music.