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Thread started 05/03/18 9:32pm

Mikado

Were all the songs on Crystal Ball (1998) reworked?

I'm curious if P reworked all of the songs on the '98 Crystal Ball album.... especially Last Heart, which sounds untouched.

A certain kind of mellow.
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Reply #1 posted 05/04/18 12:25am

BoraBora

Mikado said:

I'm curious if P reworked all of the songs on the '98 Crystal Ball album.... especially Last Heart, which sounds untouched.



The 80's songs weren't reworked (some edits, like a little middle section cut and an absolutely out-of-place intro with "Jam Of The Year" in "Movie Star" and other here and there).
"Last Heart" is the same as the original DF configuration, only connected to "Days Of Wild" with one of the more atrocious joint I ever listen to.

Some of the 90's songs are alternate or remixes takes ("So Dark" being the remix of "Dark" for example).



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Reply #2 posted 05/04/18 3:15am

databank

avatar

Mikado said:

I'm curious if P reworked all of the songs on the '98 Crystal Ball album.... especially Last Heart, which sounds untouched.

Putting aside the fact that the mix may have been completed in 1997 on certain tracks, and the mastering of course, all tracks were left pretty much untouched. However some editing was made in a few cases:

- Movie Star: the intro was added in 97

- Crucial: though it's possible that the edit goes back to 1987, it's very likely that it was made in 97

- Good Love: again it could be an unreleased edit from 1986-87 but this is unlikely, and the outro was definitely added later, and of course strictly speaking An Honest Man originally didn't segue off Crucial.

There is also the possibility that certain remixes from the Come/gold era were edited for this specific release, because we know of longer/slightly different edits for most of them (So Dark or Get Loose come to mind but I think 18 & Over and others, too). However it's hard to say whether those specific edits were made at the time of the original remixes or for CB.

I can't think of any other alteration made to the tracks, but it's of course possible that I've missed something.

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Reply #3 posted 05/04/18 3:16am

databank

avatar

BoraBora said:

"Last Heart" is the same as the original DF configuration, only connected to "Days Of Wild" with one of the more atrocious joint I ever listen to.


"Last Heart" is the same as the original DF configuration, only connected to "Days Of Wild" with one of the more atrocious best joint I ever listen to.

.

Show a little faith: Prince knew what he was doing a little more than his fans.

.

[Edited 5/4/18 3:18am]

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Reply #4 posted 05/04/18 1:08pm

BoraBora

databank said:

BoraBora said:

"Last Heart" is the same as the original DF configuration, only connected to "Days Of Wild" with one of the more atrocious joint I ever listen to.


"Last Heart" is the same as the original DF configuration, only connected to "Days Of Wild" with one of the more atrocious best joint I ever listen to.

.

Show a little faith: Prince knew what he was doing a little more than his fans.

.

[Edited 5/4/18 3:18am]



I'm happy U find it well done.

To me from the first listen it sounded absolutely forced and sloppy, and unfortunatly it wasn't the only thing bad on the 1998 CB release.

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Reply #5 posted 05/04/18 1:58pm

databank

avatar

BoraBora said:

databank said:

"Last Heart" is the same as the original DF configuration, only connected to "Days Of Wild" with one of the more atrocious best joint I ever listen to.

.

Show a little faith: Prince knew what he was doing a little more than his fans.

.

[Edited 5/4/18 3:18am]



I'm happy U find it well done.

To me from the first listen it sounded absolutely forced and sloppy, and unfortunatly it wasn't the only thing bad on the 1998 CB release.

Well, the thread isn't about whether CB is good or bad anyway. But it happens to be a record I love from beginning to end, still one of my favorite Prince albums of all times, and I'm so grateful that Prince did it the way he did it, as opposed to how(ever) his fans would have wanted him to do it nod

.

I'm sorry so few people got to enjoy it. I sure did nod

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Reply #6 posted 05/04/18 3:12pm

Doozer

avatar

databank said:

BoraBora said:



I'm happy U find it well done.

To me from the first listen it sounded absolutely forced and sloppy, and unfortunatly it wasn't the only thing bad on the 1998 CB release.

Well, the thread isn't about whether CB is good or bad anyway. But it happens to be a record I love from beginning to end, still one of my favorite Prince albums of all times, and I'm so grateful that Prince did it the way he did it, as opposed to how(ever) his fans would have wanted him to do it nod

.

I'm sorry so few people got to enjoy it. I sure did nod

I enjoy the album (or "collection) to this day. The process of purchasing it was definitely atrocious.

Thanks for the detailed account above of the changes. For the most part, all the vault tracks always seemed to me to be mostly untouched, aside from some segues.

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Reply #7 posted 05/04/18 4:18pm

purplethunder3
121

avatar

databank said:

BoraBora said:



I'm happy U find it well done.

To me from the first listen it sounded absolutely forced and sloppy, and unfortunatly it wasn't the only thing bad on the 1998 CB release.

Well, the thread isn't about whether CB is good or bad anyway. But it happens to be a record I love from beginning to end, still one of my favorite Prince albums of all times, and I'm so grateful that Prince did it the way he did it, as opposed to how(ever) his fans would have wanted him to do it nod

.

I'm sorry so few people got to enjoy it. I sure did nod

I've always enjoyed it...and still do. wink

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
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Reply #8 posted 05/04/18 5:28pm

Ugot2shakesumt
hin

They all sounded tweaked at least a little to his 90's vibe. Which is why I HATE IT WITH A PASSION.

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Reply #9 posted 05/05/18 12:14am

BoraBora

databank said:

Well, the thread isn't about whether CB is good or bad anyway. But it happens to be a record I love from beginning to end, still one of my favorite Prince albums of all times, and I'm so grateful that Prince did it the way he did it, as opposed to how(ever) his fans would have wanted him to do it nod

.

I'm sorry so few people got to enjoy it. I sure did nod



To be clear, I really enjoy it too and inside of it there are many of my favourite P tracks ("Crucial" and "Crystal Ball", to say 2 in my personal TopTen).

Simply IMO there are some unnecessary editing or transition choices that resemble a cut-and-paste work.

Let DOW fade out without any trucanted NPG operator segue and let "Last Heart" start as it always started, with its drum-fill and scream breaking silence.

That transition doesn't detract from the beauty of the two tracks, but for me it's an annoying trick.


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Reply #10 posted 05/05/18 4:55am

leecaldon

BoraBora said:

databank said:

Well, the thread isn't about whether CB is good or bad anyway. But it happens to be a record I love from beginning to end, still one of my favorite Prince albums of all times, and I'm so grateful that Prince did it the way he did it, as opposed to how(ever) his fans would have wanted him to do it nod

.

I'm sorry so few people got to enjoy it. I sure did nod



To be clear, I really enjoy it too and inside of it there are many of my favourite P tracks ("Crucial" and "Crystal Ball", to say 2 in my personal TopTen).

Simply IMO there are some unnecessary editing or transition choices that resemble a cut-and-paste work.

Let DOW fade out without any trucanted NPG operator segue and let "Last Heart" start as it always started, with its drum-fill and scream breaking silence.

That transition doesn't detract from the beauty of the two tracks, but for me it's an annoying trick.


I always liked that transition on CB. It felt like, "You want to recover from Days of Wild? No, we're going straight into another classic, no pause for breath!"

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Reply #11 posted 05/06/18 12:47pm

imprimis

databank said:

.

- Crucial: though it's possible that the edit goes back to 1987, it's very likely that it was made in 97

- Good Love: again it could be an unreleased edit from 1986-87 but this is unlikely, and the outro was definitely added later, and of course strictly speaking An Honest Man originally didn't segue off Crucial.

.

This edited form of 'Crucial' may date back to the very early 1990s, given the airy 'Q-Sound'-ish design to the mix, perhaps when it was shopped around to PP (or other) artists at the time (ca. 1990-1992).

.

It quite frankly sounds nothing like what one would expect if indulging his usual mid-to-late 1990s predilections. At the same time, the perfunctory briefness and glistening sound are similar to how some of the tracks were mixed or worked up for OF4S: The Vault. Maybe he had been planning this (~96/97) as a radio sampler or lead single for CB'97, RHG'98, or what became OF4S.

.

The 'Good Love' outro seems legitimately vintage, using a sound library at Sunset, (speculating) a previously unencountered part of the original master (or other legacy stock material belonging to another unreleased track)-- but the edit itself may well have been newly commissioned for CB'97. I think it's overall actually more satisfying than the version that appears on the alleged Camille LP and the BLBC: OST.

.

[Edited 5/6/18 13:33pm]

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Reply #12 posted 05/06/18 4:15pm

leecaldon

imprimis said:

databank said:

.

- Crucial: though it's possible that the edit goes back to 1987, it's very likely that it was made in 97

- Good Love: again it could be an unreleased edit from 1986-87 but this is unlikely, and the outro was definitely added later, and of course strictly speaking An Honest Man originally didn't segue off Crucial.

.

This edited form of 'Crucial' may date back to the very early 1990s, given the airy 'Q-Sound'-ish design to the mix, perhaps when it was shopped around to PP (or other) artists at the time (ca. 1990-1992).

.

It quite frankly sounds nothing like what one would expect if indulging his usual mid-to-late 1990s predilections. At the same time, the perfunctory briefness and glistening sound are similar to how some of the tracks were mixed or worked up for OF4S: The Vault. Maybe he had been planning this (~96/97) as a radio sampler or lead single for CB'97, RHG'98, or what became OF4S.

.

The 'Good Love' outro seems legitimately vintage, using a sound library at Sunset, (speculating) a previously unencountered part of the original master (or other legacy stock material belonging to another unreleased track)-- but the edit itself may well have been newly commissioned for CB'97. I think it's overall actually more satisfying than the version that appears on the alleged Camille LP and the BLBC: OST.

.

[Edited 5/6/18 13:33pm]

Crucial was shopped artists and turned down??? shocked

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Reply #13 posted 05/06/18 5:06pm

imprimis

leecaldon said:

imprimis said:

.

This edited form of 'Crucial' may date back to the very early 1990s, given the airy 'Q-Sound'-ish design to the mix, perhaps when it was shopped around to PP (or other) artists at the time (ca. 1990-1992).

.

It quite frankly sounds nothing like what one would expect if indulging his usual mid-to-late 1990s predilections. At the same time, the perfunctory briefness and glistening sound are similar to how some of the tracks were mixed or worked up for OF4S: The Vault. Maybe he had been planning this (~96/97) as a radio sampler or lead single for CB'97, RHG'98, or what became OF4S.

.

The 'Good Love' outro seems legitimately vintage, using a sound library at Sunset, (speculating) a previously unencountered part of the original master (or other legacy stock material belonging to another unreleased track)-- but the edit itself may well have been newly commissioned for CB'97. I think it's overall actually more satisfying than the version that appears on the alleged Camille LP and the BLBC: OST.

.

[Edited 5/6/18 13:33pm]

Crucial was shopped artists and turned down??? shocked

.

It is really only rumour mill at this point. The song was fairly dated by 1991 or so, in the one regard; in the other, it is superior vault material, and it is possible that no interested artist of sufficient calibre was located for whom it would have been appropriate material in the context of the rest of his/her album.

.

[Edited 5/6/18 17:11pm]

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Reply #14 posted 05/06/18 8:36pm

databank

avatar

BoraBora said:

databank said:

Well, the thread isn't about whether CB is good or bad anyway. But it happens to be a record I love from beginning to end, still one of my favorite Prince albums of all times, and I'm so grateful that Prince did it the way he did it, as opposed to how(ever) his fans would have wanted him to do it nod

.

I'm sorry so few people got to enjoy it. I sure did nod



To be clear, I really enjoy it too and inside of it there are many of my favourite P tracks ("Crucial" and "Crystal Ball", to say 2 in my personal TopTen).

Simply IMO there are some unnecessary editing or transition choices that resemble a cut-and-paste work.

Let DOW fade out without any trucanted NPG operator segue and let "Last Heart" start as it always started, with its drum-fill and scream breaking silence.

That transition doesn't detract from the beauty of the two tracks, but for me it's an annoying trick.


I have no idea what u're talking about: my bootleg copies (I've just checked and I have 3 duplicates of it) all start in the exact same way the CB version does, and Princevault doesn't mention any alternate edit either eek

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Reply #15 posted 05/06/18 8:38pm

databank

avatar

leecaldon said:

imprimis said:

.

This edited form of 'Crucial' may date back to the very early 1990s, given the airy 'Q-Sound'-ish design to the mix, perhaps when it was shopped around to PP (or other) artists at the time (ca. 1990-1992).

.

It quite frankly sounds nothing like what one would expect if indulging his usual mid-to-late 1990s predilections. At the same time, the perfunctory briefness and glistening sound are similar to how some of the tracks were mixed or worked up for OF4S: The Vault. Maybe he had been planning this (~96/97) as a radio sampler or lead single for CB'97, RHG'98, or what became OF4S.

.

The 'Good Love' outro seems legitimately vintage, using a sound library at Sunset, (speculating) a previously unencountered part of the original master (or other legacy stock material belonging to another unreleased track)-- but the edit itself may well have been newly commissioned for CB'97. I think it's overall actually more satisfying than the version that appears on the alleged Camille LP and the BLBC: OST.

.

[Edited 5/6/18 13:33pm]

Crucial was shopped artists and turned down??? shocked

It wasn't as far as anyone knows. Imprimis is very knowlegeable but also very prone to let his imagination run wild and come-up with all sort of speculation: he does it all the time.

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Reply #16 posted 05/06/18 8:45pm

databank

avatar

imprimis said:

leecaldon said:

Crucial was shopped artists and turned down??? shocked

.

It is really only rumour mill at this point. The song was fairly dated by 1991 or so, in the one regard; in the other, it is superior vault material, and it is possible that no interested artist of sufficient calibre was located for whom it would have been appropriate material in the context of the rest of his/her album.

.

[Edited 5/6/18 17:11pm]

So was Wonderful Ass but Prince offered it to Violent Femmes in 1990 or early 1991, probably knowing that they would inevitably have to rerecord it from scratch because there was no way the original instrumental could fit anywhere on a VF record. So theorically Prince may totally have shopped older songs to acts he assumed would rerecord them from scratch and give them a more contemporary sound (like Mica did on If I Love U 2Nite, typically). But I think there is no reason to think this particular song was shopped. Most likely all tracks from CB were remixed to some extent in 97, and of course mastered together, to create an homogeneity in sound (which must have been a bit of a challenge because we had gotten a long way in terms of recording technique and gear from Cloreen Bacon Skin at Sunset Sound in 1983 to 2morrow at Paisley Park in 1996!).

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Reply #17 posted 05/06/18 10:20pm

fabriziovenera
ndi

I remember an edit in the ending of Dream Factory too.

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Reply #18 posted 05/07/18 3:43am

imprimis

databank said:

imprimis said:

.

It is really only rumour mill at this point. The song was fairly dated by 1991 or so, in the one regard; in the other, it is superior vault material, and it is possible that no interested artist of sufficient calibre was located for whom it would have been appropriate material in the context of the rest of his/her album.

.

[Edited 5/6/18 17:11pm]

So was Wonderful Ass but Prince offered it to Violent Femmes in 1990 or early 1991, probably knowing that they would inevitably have to rerecord it from scratch because there was no way the original instrumental could fit anywhere on a VF record. So theorically Prince may totally have shopped older songs to acts he assumed would rerecord them from scratch and give them a more contemporary sound (like Mica did on If I Love U 2Nite, typically). But I think there is no reason to think this particular song was shopped. Most likely all tracks from CB were remixed to some extent in 97, and of course mastered together, to create an homogeneity in sound (which must have been a bit of a challenge because we had gotten a long way in terms of recording technique and gear from Cloreen Bacon Skin at Sunset Sound in 1983 to 2morrow at Paisley Park in 1996!).

.

I cannot think of anything from CB'97 that is mixed similarly to 'Crucial', other than perhaps the 'Honest Man' excerpt.

.

In terms of suggesting that it was 'shopped around', I am being speculative here, based upon rumour I've heard over the years, as I stated in an earlier reply in this thread.

.

You are correct that he offered rather out-of-place recordings, in terms of both the artists' style and the era, from the Vault to other acts, which is perplexing since he seems to be able to put together a winning track with minimal effort. While it is a kindly gesture in one regard, among his many obligations and projects, it can also seem dismissive or reckless to the point to tainting the legacy of a track or undermining his credibility as producer/writer by recirculating ill-fit (or underfed) material to groups unequipped to benefit from it. I will very controversially say there were some quality control issues at the Park.

.

[Edited 5/7/18 4:02am]

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Reply #19 posted 05/07/18 4:03am

databank

avatar

imprimis said:

databank said:

So was Wonderful Ass but Prince offered it to Violent Femmes in 1990 or early 1991, probably knowing that they would inevitably have to rerecord it from scratch because there was no way the original instrumental could fit anywhere on a VF record. So theorically Prince may totally have shopped older songs to acts he assumed would rerecord them from scratch and give them a more contemporary sound (like Mica did on If I Love U 2Nite, typically). But I think there is no reason to think this particular song was shopped. Most likely all tracks from CB were remixed to some extent in 97, and of course mastered together, to create an homogeneity in sound (which must have been a bit of a challenge because we had gotten a long way in terms of recording technique and gear from Cloreen Bacon Skin at Sunset Sound in 1983 to 2morrow at Paisley Park in 1996!).

.

I am being speculative here, based upon rumour I've heard over the years, as I stated in an earlier reply in this thread. You are correct that he offered rather out-of-place recordings, in terms of both the artists' style and the era, from the Vault to other acts, which is perplexing since he seems to be able to put together a winning track with minimal effort. While it is a kindly gesture in one regard, among his many obligations and projects, it can also seem dismissive or reckless to the point to tainting the legacy of a track or undermining his credibility as producer/writer by recirculating ill-fit material. I will very controversially say there were some quality control issues at the Park.

.

[Edited 5/7/18 3:52am]

It's not so much a matter of quality control as of a single artist making all decisions for what was at the time a one-man mini-industry, who had to deal with much more projects and work than any of us could ever have dealt with even in our younger years. Why in the world would Prince believe Emotional Pump was fit for Joni Mitchell or Wonderful Ass for Violent Femmes of all people? I wouldn't know. Those are very puzzling decisions. Now those are the tracks that were not accepted by the artists. When you look at the bulk of the songs he gave away to non in-house artists that got released, most are appropriate choices for the artists in question, and some are truly spot-on. But Prince, as was often said, was usually not a producer in the true sense of the term: most of the time he would not compose songs for a specific artist, but just give away songs that he'd recorded for himself prior to that. There are known exceptions (Martika, Monie Love, Sugar Walls...), but basically he just wouldn't bother: there were just too many tracks for him to release under his own name, and many artists and labels at the time that were eager to release Prince songs. And that shit was lucrative as hell, so he just did it.

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Reply #20 posted 05/07/18 4:05am

databank

avatar

fabriziovenerandi said:

I remember an edit in the ending of Dream Factory too.

Yes it exists but the version on the original Dream Factory album is the same as on CB, so that edit was authentic. Same with CB itself where different edits exist but the one that got released was also the one from the original CB config from late 86.

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Reply #21 posted 05/07/18 6:17am

djThunderfunk

avatar

I'll take the BLBC version of Good Love over CB any day, and, I do find the JOTY bit in the intro to Movie Star annoying. But, for the most part, I'm cool with the "versions" that ended up on CB.

The studio version of Days Of Wild would have been nice, but, that live version is jammin'...

"No one can keep track of how many times you've quit, with all the histrionics and ball clutching." - Angry Troll

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Reply #22 posted 05/07/18 7:13am

Mikado

The version of Crucial on CB was pretty good.
A certain kind of mellow.
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Reply #23 posted 05/07/18 7:23am

databank

avatar

djThunderfunk said:

I'll take the BLBC version of Good Love over CB any day, and, I do find the JOTY bit in the intro to Movie Star annoying. But, for the most part, I'm cool with the "versions" that ended up on CB.

The studio version of Days Of Wild would have been nice, but, that live version is jammin'...

Me too nod

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Reply #24 posted 05/07/18 7:27am

ufoclub

avatar

PEOPLE... the mix of “Sexual Suicide” is completely different than the original version on bootleg that leaked along with “Last Heart” long ago back in 1989-91.

While “Last Heart” is the same, and they are forever linked with ther sudden switch form Last Heart to Sexual Suicide on the old bootleg... Sexual Suicide was reworked at some point (maybe in that same era).

The drums are mixed differently, the Parade era effected keyboard noise (was it keyboard? You know, the same as the hook sound on “Girls and Boys”) has a bit more action on the original version, and there is an added steel drum / xylophone type sound on the rhythm.

Overall I like the released mix quite a bit.
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Reply #25 posted 05/07/18 9:22am

imprimis

The Roland G-707 guitar synthesizer, played by Wendy (live, if not also in the studio), is what appears on 'Girls & Boys', and also 'Sexual Suicide'. 'Sexual Suicide' was worked on again in late 1985 and early/mid-1986. The added 'xylophone' is probably from the CMI III.

.

The CB'97 version is likely the 'final' one from that time, with some modest changes to the mix.

.

The old boot LP version is a fairly rough demo (*not in the strictest sense). Most of the original falsetto guide/lead vocals are retained low in the released version.

.

Probably sourced from the same traders' cassette as the demo 'Love or $' and the 'Girls & Boys' unedited take.

.

[Edited 5/7/18 9:53am]

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Reply #26 posted 05/07/18 10:19am

databank

avatar

ufoclub said:

PEOPLE... the mix of “Sexual Suicide” is completely different than the original version on bootleg that leaked along with “Last Heart” long ago back in 1989-91. While “Last Heart” is the same, and they are forever linked with ther sudden switch form Last Heart to Sexual Suicide on the old bootleg... Sexual Suicide was reworked at some point (maybe in that same era). The drums are mixed differently, the Parade era effected keyboard noise (was it keyboard? You know, the same as the hook sound on “Girls and Boys”) has a bit more action on the original version, and there is an added steel drum / xylophone type sound on the rhythm. Overall I like the released mix quite a bit.

Yeah, I would assume everything was (re)mixed in 97, for final release, but IDK, I don't have a professional ear. And with the mastering it's hard for me to compare the mix because anyway those non-mastered cassettes sound so different from the masters, even when the outtakes are in pristine quality.

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Reply #27 posted 05/07/18 12:14pm

ufoclub

avatar

databank said:

ufoclub said:

PEOPLE... the mix of “Sexual Suicide” is completely different than the original version on bootleg that leaked along with “Last Heart” long ago back in 1989-91. While “Last Heart” is the same, and they are forever linked with ther sudden switch form Last Heart to Sexual Suicide on the old bootleg... Sexual Suicide was reworked at some point (maybe in that same era). The drums are mixed differently, the Parade era effected keyboard noise (was it keyboard? You know, the same as the hook sound on “Girls and Boys”) has a bit more action on the original version, and there is an added steel drum / xylophone type sound on the rhythm. Overall I like the released mix quite a bit.

Yeah, I would assume everything was (re)mixed in 97, for final release, but IDK, I don't have a professional ear. And with the mastering it's hard for me to compare the mix because anyway those non-mastered cassettes sound so different from the masters, even when the outtakes are in pristine quality.

Its not only a remaster, it's a re-arrangment, with intrumental differences. Another version then what was on the bootlegs.

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Forums > Prince: Music and More > Were all the songs on Crystal Ball (1998) reworked?