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* First, this is exactly right. * Next, I just want to say "what's up" to Skywalker. It's so good to see you posting at any time. * Third, the one thing that a lot of folks have difficulty understanding or accepting is that Prince, from day one, was a niche artist who was just so talented that he "happened upon," in a quite calculating manner, superstardom. Before Purple Rain, Prince was a niche artist who had a record label that knew it had a supremely talented wonder. So, the navigation between Prince and Warner Bros was how do they let Prince be Prince while making as much money off that as possible. Yet, after Purple Rain, Prince does the exact opposite of what MJ does after Thriller. * After Thriller, MJ spent the rest of his life trying to top Thriller. I'm not mad at him for doing so, but that only allowed him to be a "safe," "hit-making" machine. Of course, that was the way in which MJ was raised, especially coming from the ultimate "hit-making factory" of Motown. And, again, I'm not knocking Motown. But, Barry Gordy didn't want Marvin Gaye to release What's Going On? because it was a "message" record and all "message" records do is cause controversy and don't sell. In direct contrast to MJ, Prince wrote Around the World in a Day immediately after finishing Purple Rain. He didn't wait to see if Purple Rain would be successful to duplicate its success. As Prince stated in a 1985 Rolling Stone interview, "You know how easy it would have been to begin my next record with the guitar solo from 'Let's Go Crazy' and just put it in a different key?" That's the major difference between Prince and MJ. MJ was chasing/building his legacy on record sales, and Prince was chasing/building his legacy on the diversity of music he could create. As Prince stated from that same interview, "I want to be able to play all my albums back to back and none of the sound the same." As much as I respect MJ, once you've heard one MJ record, you've kinda heard them all. So, to echo what most folks have said, Prince was not as popular as MJ because he wasn't as safe, as predictable, didn't play the industry game the same way, and his aesthetic output was just too diverse for him to be palatable for a mass audience for a long time. I mean--who the hell puts "Kiss" and "I Wonder U" on the same album? Who the hell puts "Starfish and Coffee" and "Adore" on the same album. For that matter, who the hell puts "Adore" and "I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man" on the same album? Yet, if you had been a Prince fan before Purple Rain, you understood this. If jumped on the Prince ride after Purple Rain, then Prince usually outgrew your basic, one-dimensional understanding of music, which caused those people simply to jump off the Prince bandwagon and go searching for the next "hot thing," corny pun intended. But, for those of us who knew that Prince was much more than radio-friendly tunes, the ride, no matter how bumpy at times, was always worth it. MJ may have given his fans a Thriller, but he never gave his fans a Dirty Mind, a Lovesexy, a Sign 'O' the Times, or The Rainbow Children. And, for that, purple people will be eternally grateful. |
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* And, completely off topic, Eliot's "Tradition and the Individual Talent" is one of my favorite essays/literary manifestos. I don't agree with everything Eliot says in it, but his thinking about the manner in which the artist must understand history and be able to synergize the artistry of the past into an ongoing continuum is something that anchors how I understand art. And, I think that Prince was working in this notion of contextualizing his work through the lens of the historical canon. |
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I don't know, maybe it depends on where you lived, your race, your gender and what type of music you listended to. My experience was that Prince was popular in the African American/urban (whatever your wording preference) before Purple Rain; especially among teen AA females. My experience was that he wasn't a "niche" artist and that he blew up and had the midas touch during the 80s. | |
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Given what is rumored about his relationships, maybe it wasn't so sad after all. | |
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* I agree with you, but, as an African-American as well, when I say "niche" I mean that he and Rick James were considered alternatives to the more slick, polished, and safe style of MJ. MJ was the artist with whom one could enjoy with one's parents and grandparents whereas Prince, for a lot of us teens, was the artist that fueled our own rebellious notions of self-identity as it related to race, class, gender, sexuality, fashion, and musical aesthetic. Yes, he was quite popular in our community. As early as 1979, when "Still Awaiting" was played at house parties, all the lights were turned off so that the grinding could begin. Yet, even at his height, he was considered "counterculture" to the, again, more mainstream popularity of MJ. But, to be clear, that made me love Prince even more. He was an artist who was a master at weaving the sounds of the past into something innovative while still wearing his "rude boy" pen, giving a middle finger to the establishment as he sang in "DMSR," "I don't wanna be no poet 'cause I don't wanna blow it. I don't care to win awards." As strange as it seems today, from 1978 - 1985, Prince was the hardcore hood alternative to MJ about whom mothers worried would pervert their children for life. Even People Magazine asked, "Would you let your daughter date this man?" just a couple of years after the mega success of Purple Rain. In Prince's case "niche" isn't a bad thing. It simply means that his work was often too diverse and challenging for cookie-cutter tastes. |
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Good discussion. "Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
https://youtu.be/CVwv9LZMah0 | |
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khemseraph said: TXfan said: Here in Houston,TX he was really well known in the black community during his early career. All his early tours had a Houston date and his music was played at all the parties I attended as a kid. His videos started playing on this thing called MTV and then It was Purple Rain that thrust him into the stratosphere. It’s the first time I ever heard a radio station play every song on an albulm before. His tour had 6 dates here in Houston. I would say Prince was very popular in the 80’s You and I see it the same way. I'm afraid people don't understand that there are other radio/genre /areas than white/top40/pop. Prince had been a huge star since 1979 when I wanna be your lover hit #1 on the rnb charts That is how his popularity was for me too. He was a star since 1979 in my community and his music played at all family/house parties in these budding years. The 80’s he was visible but his popularity was already cemented in my community Of peers. | |
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another thing to bear in mind for the younger folk, we had no internet so it wasn't really possible to talk about Prince whenever we wanted. I was lucky to have maybe one school buddy who was as big a fan as I was (ironically a michael jackson lookalike) outside of that, everyone knew who prince was in our age group, the adults in their 40's and 50's generally didn't buy his records but they saw his performances on the grammy's and ama and had their usually negative opinion (i had an english teacher who compared him unfavorably to the beatles). So.., purple rain was the one album that brought everyone together for a brief, brief moment, the headbangerz liked purple rain, my indian cousins loved it, of course the black folks were on board but so was everyone else white and in between for a minute. what i recall when he came to town was that a few black kids went to the concert and i got the rundown but i was broke and had no car to get the 50 miles to the concert at the time. Within the next two years, most of those fans were gone, i remember asking a guy who did his hair just like PR Prince "how you like sign o the times" and he said prince was looking pretty wierd and claimed to have never been a fan,. that was not uncommon. | |
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First, let me say, nice to see a thread where people are having a thoughtful conversation and not insulting each other.
But Herb, you hit it right on the head! But if I could add to what you have said. Electronic music came of age at the same time Prince did. I think that had a hand in it too. Prince introduced a sound that nobody had heard before. It was huge. But when he hit success with it, others copied him. Over time people got tired of that sound. But I remember seeing other acts come along and thinking how they were trying to do Prince. I remember at the time how when his albums would be released it was an event. You got in line early at the local record shop before they sold out.
But most on this thread are saying the same thing and I have to agree. MJ created music that was accessible. They were pure pop songs. He had a way of tapping into that. But Prince didn't take the safe road. He took chances. But I think those changes cost him. 1999 was great. He got noticed with the songs that were released from that album. But with PR, it wasn't just the music. It was the whole package. The movie, the album art, the videos. Even the clothes and hair were being copied at the school I was at. it was also the band. That's what sold me. Here you had this diverse group of people playing together. It was a complete package. Pair it with music that you never before. Thinking.... How did they do this? When ATWIAD came out it had no single, no video at first. The album didn't sell. From what Lisa said he had to be talked into doing the video for Raspberry Beret. That helped that album. It came in like a lamb. But people didn't know what to make of it. It wasn't a safe choice. For me its what sealed the deal for me. I LOVED IT. Still do.... When Kiss came out it knocked people on their ear. It made the release of it a HUGE event. The move tanked, then he broke up the Revolution. I think that cost him too. Then SOTT came along it had a hard time finding people. I love if I Was Your Girlfriend. But people didn't get it. He wasn't doing straight pop songs like MJ. What he was doing came off as weird. I remember DJ's on the radio making fun of his music. "Will Prince ever release music in a normal voice?" (If I was Your Girlfriend, U Got The Look, Good Love) SOTT was also expensive. I remember it being $24.99. Then the nude album cover of Lovesexy. That helped kill that album. I remember people looking at that album in the store. Picking it up, laughing it it, and throwing it back in the bin. Then hip hop / rap was the new direction, and grunge rock of the early 90's. It was no longer glam rock, but the grunge look. Buying clothes at Goodwill. AAA+++ it they too big, didn't fit and were worn out. But electronic music of the 80's was no longer cool. But what kept Prince going were the fans. Some moved on, many of us kept with him. with MJ you knew what you were going to get. But he too got weird with plastic surgery. That's what turned people off from him.
The 80's were all about the music, the videos, and the clothes. It was different and fresh. Something you never had with music. By the time the 90's came along. Video music channels were not playing music videos. They were playing game shows and reality TV. You couldn't just turn the channel on and have music videos playing. You had to look at when they were going to be on. tastes changed. | |
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people mention michael being safer and more pop, while that is true, it wasn't that that hurt him, it was how long he took between albums. Thriller was great but it was five fucking years before he came out with bad. In that length of time, give him credit, mj was a shot in the arm for the business but while others were enjoying the resurgence of music, he was sitting around trying to figure out what to do. Bad was a good album, ironically, he had a lot of vintage prince sounds on the album, so he was more influenced by him i'd say than vice versa, although i still think Prince got his dancing chops up to speed in short order because of MJ. Had MJ put out an album every year or two i think he would have fared better as an artist and I think his rivalry with prince would have been a much better one for everyone. | |
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True for the US but not in Europe, though. I'm not sure what year each country had their own music channel but France didn't really get one at all in the 80's. There was a short lived 100% music TV6 channel (lasted less than a year in 86) that was only available, for its short lifespan, in the main cities, and MCM was then launched in 89 but was for a long while only available in the far South-East of the country and on cable and satellite TV (which virtually no one had in 89). MTV Europe was launched in 87 from the UK and, in France, was again only available on cable and satellite TV, so masses didn't have any access to it at all. . It's possible that in other European countries cable/satellite were more advanced or that they had their own music channel earlier but in France what was left when it comes to music videos was the daily Top 50 program launched in 84. This was extremely influential and indeed could make or break artists but before you got played there you first had to sell enough to reach the Top 50, so you basically depended on radios to make you popular enough to finally be on TV. Then from 1987 onwards you had M6, that replaced TV6 and wasn't only music, but had a several hours slot for music videos every day. At first it was, again, only available in the big cities though, so its major influence on sales and popularity didn't happen until the very late 80's and early 90's. But then, even if it was only 4 or 5 hours a day, it became extremely influential. . On the other hand, when the government opened the radio market in 1981 (so far limited to state radios and a few foreign channels we could get in France), there was a huge boom in both commercial and indie radios, so in the 80's, it was definitely radio that made or broke artists in France. . I remember being so jealous of you Americans for having a 24/7 hrs music channel! Same when I was younger for you guys having 24/7 cartoon channels. It sounds crazy now but at the time there was still a significant delay between progress in the US and Europe: the average American had things like microwaves, VCR's and video games consoles about 5 years earlier than the average European. . When in 1992 my grandma took cable TV, I spent whole weekends at her place, watching MTV Europe and MCM A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/ |
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why does this have to be a comparison thread? | |
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It's not. A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/ |
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. our timing and topic was quite similar . So that interview was already in 1995? Damn.. I thought it was much later. Paisley Park is in your heart - Love Is Here! |
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He was popular enough to be considered the true King of Pop & to cause Rick James & MJ to be concerned (lol), ppl are still talking about this man & celebrating his life & music |
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"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
https://youtu.be/CVwv9LZMah0 | |
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In Dallas, TX you would hear him on the radio several times darn near each hour! |
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P won "Best International Male" at the Brits: 1996, 1995, 1993, 1992, 1985. So yeah he was pretty popular - or 'known' might be the word. Back in the '90s, everybody knew who Prince was. Nobody thought you were on about William or Charles or anything. Nowadays that's not the case unless you're amongst people with functioning hearts and souls (rare). ]
[Edited 3/9/18 15:10pm] | |
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another thing i'll say is that his "fame" or notoriety was much longer lasting with other musicians, other musicians had a huge admiration for him because they could see so much of what they were trying to do in him. In the eighties there were really maybe only four megastars of the decade MJ, Madonna, Prince and Bruce (some would include U2) and out of that group Prince was the most prolific, the most inconsistent with sales and the most artistic. It's true that he did things to sabotage that level of PR fame, he admitted it later, he had no use for it as a man and as an artist. He also seemed plain boneheaded about some of his decision making post Purple Rain, as i said before, only prince with all that talent could (someone said the same of Muhammad Ali's flaws as a boxer) outrun his mistakes. | |
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I wanted to add to compare MJ’s output to P’s is kinda unfair. MJ had been doing this performing thing since he was a child. So to me For him to put out albums so far apart when he was an adult kinda makes Sense, he was probably getting kinda tired of the grind. Or knew it really didn’t Matter. I think The Jackson 5 paved some of the way for P and others. Even Shelia E in her book said she and her bros wanted to be the Jackson 5. MJ gets the King of POp title from me just because of his place in line in the history of it all. Prince is something else entirely. | |
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luvsexy4all said: why does this have to be a comparison thread? Good point. Fair enough. | |
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most people assumed it was the pressure to follow up thriller that led to the five year break, but that became normal for him. in my opinion, he was just too perfectionistic and he wanted everything to be huge rather than just writing songs. Thriller was kind of like Citizen Kane was for Orson Welles. Also, I do think the molestation scandal had to just suck a lot of creativity and drive right out of him, imagine being the most famous man in the world one minute and then the most infamous, that would kill a lot of people. I'm watching a local Indian author go through a scandal right now and he's not handling it well at all, and he's small potatoes compared to MJ. | |
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was freakng popular.
https://newrepublic.com/a...sounds-sex
Here is a 1985 article about how they wanted to silence Prince. ^^
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i forgot to mention george michael, he was a guy who was at that level of stardom with faith, so some might say he was in their league but for most people madonna/prince/bruce/mj were the ones just like elvis/little richard/chuck berry/fats domino were the ones for the fifties. | |
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I haven't read all the replies... [Edited 3/10/18 7:50am] |
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purplefam99 said: luvsexy4all said: why does this have to be a comparison thread? Good point. Fair enough. When you try to answer the question of how popular Prince was, inevitably you're going to compare him to others. But in my memory, when people were talking and writing about Prince back then, the artist he was mostly compared with was Jimi Hendrix. | |
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Especially during the Purple Rain period. "Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato
https://youtu.be/CVwv9LZMah0 | |
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hendrix and sly by the critics, i used to read that alot and that was before i even really knew who sly was. It was true, the bass line of 1999, controversy and many of his early hits was the same type of bass line sly employed in many of his songs. Prince seemed to not like the Hendrix comparisons at the time but he did enough to encourage those comparisons. | |
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Mj did but he also had a very unhealthy fixation with sales and awards. It crushed him when he didn't do better at the award shows with off the wall and really, that shit shouldn't have mattered to him really. anyway, he was willing to do a lot of things Prince wasn't to sell more in addition to the huge following he already had. His record will never be broken of course but it was a high price for his art and for his psyche. | |
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