getwild180 said:

as long as it has the "Sisters and brothers in the Purple Underground..." part.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

as long as it has the "Sisters and brothers in the Purple Underground..." part.

Is that on the released version? Can't remember.

paulludvig said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

as long as it has the "Sisters and brothers in the Purple Underground..." part.

Is that on the released version? Can't remember.

no he took that part out...

i am undecided as to with or without strings... i think without...

getwild180 said:

On several of the Dream Factory boots is the version of Crystal Ball without the strings and sound effects. However with Prince's version of Crystal Ball (1998), his version is the one with the strings and sound effects. So which version is really supposed to be on the Dream Factory album if it was to be released? Sorry if this is a stupid question or had already been discussed.

If I'm not mistaken the Dream Factory boots are the actual album so I

assume the version you hear on the boot is the one we would of got and the one

you hear from 98 is the reworked version that would have been on the 1987 triple album version

of Crystal Ball.

There are 3 versions I have: The ten minute one on Crystal Ball (the one he released in 1998) which has very limited strings and no "Purple Underground" part, the bootleg versions consist of a nine minute take with full orchestration and added parts with Wendy & Lisa (this take was on Dream Factory). The third is my personal favorite, the full eleven minute take that seems to me the definitive version of this song.

Anthoknee said:

There are 3 versions I have: The ten minute one on Crystal Ball (the one he released in 1998) which has very limited strings and no "Purple Underground" part, the bootleg versions consist of a nine minute take with full orchestration and added parts with Wendy & Lisa (this take was on Dream Factory). The third is my personal favorite, the full eleven minute take that seems to me the definitive version of this song.

Which Dream Factory boot is that second version on because I have all of them and there's no orchestration on any version of my Dream Factory boots.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

paulludvig said:

Is that on the released version? Can't remember.

no he took that part out...

i am undecided as to with or without strings... i think without...

Love the strings-less version. But I definitly prefer the strings version . That and "Egyptian Song" by Rufus/Chaka were Clare Fischer's finest works IMO.

dbpdexter said:

Anthoknee said:

There are 3 versions I have: The ten minute one on Crystal Ball (the one he released in 1998) which has very limited strings and no "Purple Underground" part, the bootleg versions consist of a nine minute take with full orchestration and added parts with Wendy & Lisa (this take was on Dream Factory). The third is my personal favorite, the full eleven minute take that seems to me the definitive version of this song.

Which Dream Factory boot is that second version on because I have all of them and there's no orchestration on any version of my Dream Factory boots.

I believe the one I have is Foefurs (?) but now I'm unsure if it has all the overdubs, it does have extra percussion and different PARTS to it but....hmmmm I may need to listen to all 3 back to back...great song in ANY guise though!

[Edited 2/23/18 11:21am]

Anthoknee said:

dbpdexter said:

Which Dream Factory boot is that second version on because I have all of them and there's no orchestration on any version of my Dream Factory boots.

I believe the one I have is Foefurs (?) but now I'm unsure if the it has all the overdubs, it does have extra percussion and different PARTS to it but....hmmmm I may need to listen to all 3 back to back...great song in ANY guise though!

I have 4 i guess 3 from the Work it set... and the released on...


Crystal Ball #1 11:10 Full with Strings...

Crystal Ball #2 9:51 an edit without strings

Crystal Ball #3 9:29 An edit without...


Released: is 10:28


Is that basically it?

getwild180 said:

On several of the Dream Factory boots is the version of Crystal Ball without the strings and sound effects. However with Prince's version of Crystal Ball (1998), his version is the one with the strings and sound effects. So which version is really supposed to be on the Dream Factory album if it was to be released? Sorry if this is a stupid question or had already been discussed.

There was no strings on the last known configuration of Dream Factory. It's unclear to me whether Prince was already intending to add them at a later date but as it appears on known DF tapes, there are no strings.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Anthoknee said:

I believe the one I have is Foefurs (?) but now I'm unsure if the it has all the overdubs, it does have extra percussion and different PARTS to it but....hmmmm I may need to listen to all 3 back to back...great song in ANY guise though!

I have 4 i guess 3 from the Work it set... and the released on...


Crystal Ball #1 11:10 Full with Strings...

Crystal Ball #2 9:51 an edit without strings

Crystal Ball #3 9:29 An edit without...


Released: is 10:28


Is that basically it?

Yes, definitely, forgot there was 2 different 9 min. takes! I have the first one (9:51)

getwild180 said:

On several of the Dream Factory boots is the version of Crystal Ball without the strings and sound effects. However with Prince's version of Crystal Ball (1998), his version is the one with the strings and sound effects. So which version is really supposed to be on the Dream Factory album if it was to be released? Sorry if this is a stupid question or had already been discussed.

This is off topic but not off topic. Versions of songs: so, just got off listening to alternate takes of Come, Gold, Chaos & Disorder and Right The Wrong. The question I have is, based on the quality of these alternative takes (and in all four versions I would argue better takes than the ones released...just my opinion), what was the decision process that occurred for one version to be released over the other? Some of the choices appear baffling...almost like sabotage.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Anthoknee said:

I believe the one I have is Foefurs (?) but now I'm unsure if the it has all the overdubs, it does have extra percussion and different PARTS to it but....hmmmm I may need to listen to all 3 back to back...great song in ANY guise though!

I have 4 i guess 3 from the Work it set... and the released on...


Crystal Ball #1 11:10 Full with Strings...

Crystal Ball #2 9:51 an edit without strings

Crystal Ball #3 9:29 An edit without...


Released: is 10:28


Is that basically it?

Crystal Ball #1 is a fan made patchwork edit of the strings version and the no strings version.

There is one more version that was released on BFTP4 wich is the best IMO it's 11:23 no strings,great sound quality and is the most full version out of all of them.

dbpdexter said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

I have 4 i guess 3 from the Work it set... and the released on...


Crystal Ball #1 11:10 Full with Strings...

Crystal Ball #2 9:51 an edit without strings

Crystal Ball #3 9:29 An edit without...


Released: is 10:28


Is that basically it?

Crystal Ball #1 is a fan made patchwork edit of the strings version and the no strings version.

There is one more version that was released on BFTP4 wich is the best IMO it's 11:23 no strings,great sound quality and is the most full version out of all of them.

yeah and oddly that is my fav one... I listened to it twice today...

SimonCharles said:

coldasice said:

SimonCharles said:

This is off topic but not off topic. Versions of songs: so, just got off listening to alternate takes of Come, Gold, Chaos & Disorder and Right The Wrong. The question I have is, based on the quality of these alternative takes (and in all four versions I would argue better takes than the ones released...just my opinion), what was the decision process that occurred for one version to be released over the other? Some of the choices appear baffling...almost like sabotage.

C&D was lowered in aggressiveness the minute the Organ was blasted in the mix & the record scratches

The version I heard still had the sound effects high up in the mix. It sounded like a full band recording. It was so much more effervescent and aggressive, yes. Likewise, Come without jingle bells is furiously intense, darker and funkier...the choice to release jingle bells Come appears at odds with the message Prince appeared to be sending at the time, especially considering the cover art of the album, too.

Hey ho - who am I to second guess Prince...we're blessed that we can hear all the versions of the songs, I suppose.

SimonCharles said:

coldasice said:

SimonCharles said: C&D was lowered in aggressiveness the minute the Organ was blasted in the mix & the record scratches

The version I heard still had the sound effects high up in the mix. It sounded like a full band recording. It was so much more effervescent and aggressive, yes. Likewise, Come without jingle bells is furiously intense, darker and funkier...the choice to release jingle bells Come appears at odds with the message Prince appeared to be sending at the time, especially considering the cover art of the album, too.

Hey ho - who am I to second guess Prince...we're blessed that we can hear all the versions of the songs, I suppose.

Despite his frequent taste for minimalism, Prince had a tendency to what some would call overproduction, though it's mostly a question of perspective.

In some cases it might get in the way of the message or even change it entirely (see The Line), but I for one usually agree with his decision regarding what's to be released or not.

.

Come was a tough choice and I wonder if the jingle bells version as you call it wasn't initially worked as some sort of extended remix for the planned single, then Prince realized what he had and decided to make it the main cut. Arguably the 3 previous versions (original, Glam Slam Ulysses/10000 Wallpaper and Beautiful Experience) were pretty awesome but delivered a message that was more mystical than sexual in nature. The album cut changed that message to something much more sexually oriented and does it brillantly, not to mention the horns extravaganza that follows thanks to MBN's talents. It's not hard to see why Prince would favoir a 12 minutes long soul epic with the most sophisticated horns arrangement ever featured in his music at that point over a 4 minutes techno-funk track that, for all its glory, was more intriguing but less outstanding. In any case, it's safe to assume that the short version that would have been released if not for the long version would have been the more electronic video version, not the Ulysses/Wallpaper one.

.

As for Gold I realize how and why the more, acoustic guitar-led stripped down version is more attractive to all the Dylan/McCartney/Springsteen fans here on the org, but from the perspective of Prince's music, which usually implies more of an electrofunk and synthpop approach than ock/folk, releasing the Gold demo would have been absolute nonsense, as it fails to deliver the message properly. Gold is for all intent and purpose an epic, and loading it with heroic synth as it was eventually done was totally logical. The demo is almost unlistenable for me save for its historical interest, because it totally fails to deliver the message (or, more accurately, delivers only about half of it without the support of the shiny synth sounds). Prince putting this on the album was simply unthinkable.

.

Other choices were more debatable of course: many songs on C&D may have benefited from a more stipped down bass/guitar/drums appraoch because they are rock by nature, and the power trio approach did wonders on I Like It There for example, so lots of organ and horns could have been given-uo on. However I find the released version of C&D (the song) much more agressive and dynamic than the original mix. Same by the way with Endorphinmachine. Prince wished to make the songs more powerful and did so, but maybe lost a bit of the grunge sound in favor of a post-Hendrix sound à la Lenny Kravitz. There are also some edits that are harder to understand: the extended cuts of Race that are featured on the Beautiful Experience and 10000 Wallpapers take a better advantage of the tracks' samples and sound palette than the album version, and may have deserved to make the album, but Prince favored a shorter statement. Billy Jack Bitch also was much more interesting a track with the extended horns part, but admitedly it kind of dissolved the message and took the listener's attention away from what the song was really about, so Prince favored a shorter edit again.

.

In the end, like Bonatoc said elsewhere the other day, Prince choices were rarely gratuitous. Fans tend to think in terms of 'this song/version was better than that one" but the real question is to try and wonder why Prince chose one over another. Ofen, it involves asking oneself "what was the message and which version delivers it best", or "which song works best in the context of that specific album and tracklist".

.

Another good example from the Come/Gold era is Prince's decision to remove Interactive from TGE. Interactive (the short version with the NPG Operator intro and interlude) was a conceptual key to the whole TGE concept and therefore a natural opener for the album since its initial conception, so removing it was quite a puzzling decision. One reason, as stated in the CB booklet, is that Prince felt it didn't work back to back with Endorphinmachine. That's debatable, but arguably Endophinmachine sounds less powerful is played right after Interactive. Prince could have placed it later on the tracklist but for some reason he seemed to want it early on the album and when all was said and done, Endoprhinmachine was unquestionably a stronger, more original track than Interactive. Another probable reason is that Prince recorded P. Control and realized he had one of the strongest album openers of his career in his hands, mostly because of the song's mindblowing intro (I know P. Control is disliked by some fans but let's not discuss this: it's an awesome track, Prince knew it and anyone who thinks otherwise is either deaf or a fool). P. Control could have been played later on the record but it would have been less impactful. On the other hand the same could be said about Interactive: it would have lost most of its conceptual impact if moved to second position. So at the end of the day, Interactive was kicked out by both Enbdoprhinmachine and P. Control. I'm still myself not certain about whether this was the right decision to make, if only because by the time the album was released I had been considering Interactive its natural opener for a year and a half, but I can understand why Prince resolved himself to do it even if it somehow killed the NPG Operator concept in the egg. I still can't figure out why Acknowledge Me and Ripopgodazippa had to go, though, except maybe that Prince moved away a bit from the original's configuration's strong R&B orientation towards a more power rock (for lack of a better term) approach.

[Edited 2/24/18 3:09am]

databank said:

SimonCharles said:

The version I heard still had the sound effects high up in the mix. It sounded like a full band recording. It was so much more effervescent and aggressive, yes. Likewise, Come without jingle bells is furiously intense, darker and funkier...the choice to release jingle bells Come appears at odds with the message Prince appeared to be sending at the time, especially considering the cover art of the album, too.

Hey ho - who am I to second guess Prince...we're blessed that we can hear all the versions of the songs, I suppose.

Despite his frequent taste for minimalism, Prince had a tendency to what some would call overproduction, though it's mostly a question of perspective.

In some cases it might get in the way of the message or even change it entirely (see The Line), but I for one usually agree with his decision regarding what's to be released or not.

.

Come was a tough choice and I wonder if the jingle bells version as you call it wasn't initially worked as some sort of extended remix for the planned single, then Prince realized what he had and decided to make it the main cut. Arguably the 3 previous versions (original, Glam Slam Ulysses/10000 Wallpaper and Beautiful Experience) were pretty awesome but delivered a message that was more mystical than sexual in nature. The album cut changed that message to something much more sexually oriented and does it brillantly, not to mention the horns extravaganza that follows thanks to MBN's talents. It's not hard to see why Prince would favoir a 12 minutes long soul epic with the most sophisticated horns arrangement ever featured in his music at that point over a 4 minutes techno-funk track that, for all its glory, was more intriguing but less outstanding. In any case, it's safe to assume that the short version that would have been released if not for the long version would have been the more electronic video version, not the Ulysses/Wallpaper one.

.

As for Gold I realize how and why the more, acoustic guitar-led stripped down version is more attractive to all the Dylan/McCartney/Springsteen fans here on the org, but from the perspective of Prince's music, which usually implies more of an electrofunk and synthpop approach than ock/folk, releasing the Gold demo would have been absolute nonsense, as it fails to deliver the message properly. Gold is for all intent and purpose an epic, and loading it with heroic synth as it was eventually done was totally logical. The demo is almost unlistenable for me save for its historical interest, because it totally fails to deliver the message (or, more accurately, delivers only about half of it without the support of the shiny synth sounds). Prince putting this on the album was simply unthinkable.

.

Other choices were more debatable of course: many songs on C&D may have benefited from a more stipped down bass/guitar/drums appraoch because they are rock by nature, and the power trio approach did wonders on I Like It There for example, so lots of organ and horns could have been given-uo on. However I find the released version of C&D (the song) much more agressive and dynamic than the original mix. Same by the way with Endorphinmachine. Prince wished to make the songs more powerful and did so, but maybe lost a bit of the grunge sound in favor of a post-Hendrix sound à la Lenny Kravitz. There are also some edits that are harder to understand: the extended cuts of Race that are featured on the Beautiful Experience and 10000 Wallpapers take a better advantage of the tracks' samples and sound palette than the album version, and may have deserved to make the album, but Prince favored a shorter statement. Billy Jack Bitch also was much more interesting a track with the extended horns part, but admitedly it kind of dissolved the message and took the listener's attention away from what the song was really about, so Prince favored a shorter edit again.

.

In the end, like Bonatoc said elsewhere the other day, Prince choices were rarely gratuitous. Fans tend to think in terms of 'this song/version was better than that one" but the real question is to try and wonder why Prince chose one over another. Ofen, it involves asking oneself "what was the message and which version delivers it best", or "which song works best in the context of that specific album and tracklist".

.

Another good example from the Come/Gold era is Prince's decision to remove Interactive from TGE. Interactive (the short version with the NPG Operator intro and interlude) was a conceptual key to the whole TGE concept and therefore a natural opener for the album since its initial conception, so removing it was quite a puzzling decision. One reason, as stated in the CB booklet, is that Prince felt it didn't work back to back with Endorphinmachine. That's debatable, but arguably Endophinmachine sounds less powerful is played right after Interactive. Prince could have placed it later on the tracklist but for some reason he seemed to want it early on the album and when all was said and done, Endoprhinmachine was unquestionably a stronger, more original track than Interactive. Another probable reason is that Prince recorded P. Control and realized he had one of the strongest album openers of his career in his hands, mostly because of the song's mindblowing intro (I know P. Control is disliked by some fans but let's not discuss this: it's an awesome track, Prince knew it and anyone who thinks otherwise is either deaf or a fool). P. Control could have been played later on the record but it would have been less impactful. On the other hand the same could be said about Interactive: it would have lost most of its conceptual impact if moved to second position. So at the end of the day, Interactive was kicked out by both Enbdoprhinmachine and P. Control. I'm still myself not certain about whether this was the right decision to make, if only because by the time the album was released I had been considering Interactive its natural opener for a year and a half, but I can understand why Prince resolved himself to do it even if it somehow killed the NPG Operator concept in the egg. I still can't figure out why Acknowledge Me and Ripopgodazippa had to go, though, except maybe that Prince moved away a bit from the original's configuration's strong R&B orientation towards a more power rock (for lack of a better term) approach.

[Edited 2/24/18 3:09am]

I enjoyed reading that. The over-production accusation in an interesting one. It became an evidence obsession through that mid-to-late 90s period...TMBGITW is a prime example of every noun being represented by a sound effect. I like your argument around Come, although I think all versions of the song have an overtly sexual centrality - if anything, the released version becomes a bit comical (to these ears, anyway).

*

Interesting arguments on all the songs mentioned. I would argue that a half-way house between the sunth/guitar and acoustic version of Gold could have worked a treat. C&D...it's a curate's egg of a song...the only time I really enjoyed the riif was during the MTV awards when he put it in the middle of Peach. The in your face/aggressive mode works better for me.

*

I agree with the comment about Prince's choices being "gratuitous", however there is an argument to be made that Prince diluted far too many of his songs through his choices the C&D album also includes Zanalee which would benefit from heving the heavier mix released rather than the, aforementioned, mid-90s sound effect heavy version we have on record.

*

Thanks for taking the time to write so comprehensively. That was a good read!

SimonCharles said:

databank said:

Despite his frequent taste for minimalism, Prince had a tendency to what some would call overproduction, though it's mostly a question of perspective.

In some cases it might get in the way of the message or even change it entirely (see The Line), but I for one usually agree with his decision regarding what's to be released or not.

.

Come was a tough choice and I wonder if the jingle bells version as you call it wasn't initially worked as some sort of extended remix for the planned single, then Prince realized what he had and decided to make it the main cut. Arguably the 3 previous versions (original, Glam Slam Ulysses/10000 Wallpaper and Beautiful Experience) were pretty awesome but delivered a message that was more mystical than sexual in nature. The album cut changed that message to something much more sexually oriented and does it brillantly, not to mention the horns extravaganza that follows thanks to MBN's talents. It's not hard to see why Prince would favoir a 12 minutes long soul epic with the most sophisticated horns arrangement ever featured in his music at that point over a 4 minutes techno-funk track that, for all its glory, was more intriguing but less outstanding. In any case, it's safe to assume that the short version that would have been released if not for the long version would have been the more electronic video version, not the Ulysses/Wallpaper one.

.

As for Gold I realize how and why the more, acoustic guitar-led stripped down version is more attractive to all the Dylan/McCartney/Springsteen fans here on the org, but from the perspective of Prince's music, which usually implies more of an electrofunk and synthpop approach than ock/folk, releasing the Gold demo would have been absolute nonsense, as it fails to deliver the message properly. Gold is for all intent and purpose an epic, and loading it with heroic synth as it was eventually done was totally logical. The demo is almost unlistenable for me save for its historical interest, because it totally fails to deliver the message (or, more accurately, delivers only about half of it without the support of the shiny synth sounds). Prince putting this on the album was simply unthinkable.

.

Other choices were more debatable of course: many songs on C&D may have benefited from a more stipped down bass/guitar/drums appraoch because they are rock by nature, and the power trio approach did wonders on I Like It There for example, so lots of organ and horns could have been given-uo on. However I find the released version of C&D (the song) much more agressive and dynamic than the original mix. Same by the way with Endorphinmachine. Prince wished to make the songs more powerful and did so, but maybe lost a bit of the grunge sound in favor of a post-Hendrix sound à la Lenny Kravitz. There are also some edits that are harder to understand: the extended cuts of Race that are featured on the Beautiful Experience and 10000 Wallpapers take a better advantage of the tracks' samples and sound palette than the album version, and may have deserved to make the album, but Prince favored a shorter statement. Billy Jack Bitch also was much more interesting a track with the extended horns part, but admitedly it kind of dissolved the message and took the listener's attention away from what the song was really about, so Prince favored a shorter edit again.

.

In the end, like Bonatoc said elsewhere the other day, Prince choices were rarely gratuitous. Fans tend to think in terms of 'this song/version was better than that one" but the real question is to try and wonder why Prince chose one over another. Ofen, it involves asking oneself "what was the message and which version delivers it best", or "which song works best in the context of that specific album and tracklist".

.

Another good example from the Come/Gold era is Prince's decision to remove Interactive from TGE. Interactive (the short version with the NPG Operator intro and interlude) was a conceptual key to the whole TGE concept and therefore a natural opener for the album since its initial conception, so removing it was quite a puzzling decision. One reason, as stated in the CB booklet, is that Prince felt it didn't work back to back with Endorphinmachine. That's debatable, but arguably Endophinmachine sounds less powerful is played right after Interactive. Prince could have placed it later on the tracklist but for some reason he seemed to want it early on the album and when all was said and done, Endoprhinmachine was unquestionably a stronger, more original track than Interactive. Another probable reason is that Prince recorded P. Control and realized he had one of the strongest album openers of his career in his hands, mostly because of the song's mindblowing intro (I know P. Control is disliked by some fans but let's not discuss this: it's an awesome track, Prince knew it and anyone who thinks otherwise is either deaf or a fool). P. Control could have been played later on the record but it would have been less impactful. On the other hand the same could be said about Interactive: it would have lost most of its conceptual impact if moved to second position. So at the end of the day, Interactive was kicked out by both Enbdoprhinmachine and P. Control. I'm still myself not certain about whether this was the right decision to make, if only because by the time the album was released I had been considering Interactive its natural opener for a year and a half, but I can understand why Prince resolved himself to do it even if it somehow killed the NPG Operator concept in the egg. I still can't figure out why Acknowledge Me and Ripopgodazippa had to go, though, except maybe that Prince moved away a bit from the original's configuration's strong R&B orientation towards a more power rock (for lack of a better term) approach.

[Edited 2/24/18 3:09am]

I enjoyed reading that. The over-production accusation in an interesting one. It became an evidence obsession through that mid-to-late 90s period...TMBGITW is a prime example of every noun being represented by a sound effect. I like your argument around Come, although I think all versions of the song have an overtly sexual centrality - if anything, the released version becomes a bit comical (to these ears, anyway).

*

Interesting arguments on all the songs mentioned. I would argue that a half-way house between the sunth/guitar and acoustic version of Gold could have worked a treat. C&D...it's a curate's egg of a song...the only time I really enjoyed the riif was during the MTV awards when he put it in the middle of Peach. The in your face/aggressive mode works better for me.

*

I agree with the comment about Prince's choices being "gratuitous", however there is an argument to be made that Prince diluted far too many of his songs through his choices the C&D album also includes Zanalee which would benefit from heving the heavier mix released rather than the, aforementioned, mid-90s sound effect heavy version we have on record.

*

Thanks for taking the time to write so comprehensively. That was a good read!

Thanks for reading and, in turn, replying

.

Regarding overproduction Prince once quoted the film Amadeus, saying people blamed him for putting "too many notes" in his music the same way a character blames Mozart for doing so. Prince clearly had a horror of void in his music. On the other hand his songs are always filled with little details everywhere that makes every measure unlike the next, while lots of pop music is basically built on loops with little if any musical differences between, say, verse one and verse 2, or chorus one and chorus 2. I personally fell in love with Prince's music precisely because it was overcharged with layers and layers of sounds, so in most cases I find the released version of a song superior to the circulating early, more bare-bone versions. Something In The Water (Does Not Compute) is one rare instance where Prince went the other way 'round, by deproducing a song to make it as minimalist as possible, and in that case it was a remarkably smart decision. It's also to be noted that often, Clare Fischer or MBN's arrangements would be heavily edited by Prince, who would only keep those elements he was interested in (and even sometimes use them at another point in the track that what was originally intended by CF or MBN). I would still love to hear Parade with CF's full orchestration: someone (Eric or Susan maybe) once said it would have made for an entirely different record.

.

I love C&D (the album) but I've always felt there were many issues with it: some arrangements don't work so well, the tracklist somehow lacks a certain dynamic or cohesiveness despite the rock orientation. I have the same issues with Planet Earth and AOA: I find those records to suffer from structural flaws. C&D was also, consciously or not, deeply made to sound very mid-90's. It makes it a lovely era-piece for those of us who are nostalgic of that era, but it also makes it quite dated now. Oppositely, The Vault... Old Friends 4 Sale, compiled and completed at the same time, is timeless with its retro jazzy vibe. It would have been interesting for those 2 records to have been released on the same day since they are sort of twin records: P's rock side, P's jazz side: if anything it wouyld have shown his versatility. But of course, there was no point for WB having both records competing with each other.

databank said:

SimonCharles said:

I enjoyed reading that. The over-production accusation in an interesting one. It became an evidence obsession through that mid-to-late 90s period...TMBGITW is a prime example of every noun being represented by a sound effect. I like your argument around Come, although I think all versions of the song have an overtly sexual centrality - if anything, the released version becomes a bit comical (to these ears, anyway).

*

Interesting arguments on all the songs mentioned. I would argue that a half-way house between the sunth/guitar and acoustic version of Gold could have worked a treat. C&D...it's a curate's egg of a song...the only time I really enjoyed the riif was during the MTV awards when he put it in the middle of Peach. The in your face/aggressive mode works better for me.

*

I agree with the comment about Prince's choices being "gratuitous", however there is an argument to be made that Prince diluted far too many of his songs through his choices the C&D album also includes Zanalee which would benefit from heving the heavier mix released rather than the, aforementioned, mid-90s sound effect heavy version we have on record.

*

Thanks for taking the time to write so comprehensively. That was a good read!

Thanks for reading and, in turn, replying

.

Regarding overproduction Prince once quoted the film Amadeus, saying people blamed him for putting "too many notes" in his music the same way a character blames Mozart for doing so. Prince clearly had a horror of void in his music. On the other hand his songs are always filled with little details everywhere that makes every measure unlike the next, while lots of pop music is basically built on loops with little if any musical differences between, say, verse one and verse 2, or chorus one and chorus 2. I personally fell in love with Prince's music precisely because it was overcharged with layers and layers of sounds, so in most cases I find the released version of a song superior to the circulating early, more bare-bone versions. Something In The Water (Does Not Compute) is one rare instance where Prince went the other way 'round, by deproducing a song to make it as minimalist as possible, and in that case it was a remarkably smart decision. It's also to be noted that often, Clare Fischer or MBN's arrangements would be heavily edited by Prince, who would only keep those elements he was interested in (and even sometimes use them at another point in the track that what was originally intended by CF or MBN). I would still love to hear Parade with CF's full orchestration: someone (Eric or Susan maybe) once said it would have made for an entirely different record.

.

I love C&D (the album) but I've always felt there were many issues with it: some arrangements don't work so well, the tracklist somehow lacks a certain dynamic or cohesiveness despite the rock orientation. I have the same issues with Planet Earth and AOA: I find those records to suffer from structural flaws. C&D was also, consciously or not, deeply made to sound very mid-90's. It makes it a lovely era-piece for those of us who are nostalgic of that era, but it also makes it quite dated now. Oppositely, The Vault... Old Friends 4 Sale, compiled and completed at the same time, is timeless with its retro jazzy vibe. It would have been interesting for those 2 records to have been released on the same day since they are sort of twin records: P's rock side, P's jazz side: if anything it wouyld have shown his versatility. But of course, there was no point for WB having both records competing with each other.

I love the fact that Prince edited the orchestration. It makes the final result fully a Prince production. I think Prince deserves to be credited with the orchestral arrangements alongside Fischer.

databank said:

SimonCharles said:

The version I heard still had the sound effects high up in the mix. It sounded like a full band recording. It was so much more effervescent and aggressive, yes. Likewise, Come without jingle bells is furiously intense, darker and funkier...the choice to release jingle bells Come appears at odds with the message Prince appeared to be sending at the time, especially considering the cover art of the album, too.

Hey ho - who am I to second guess Prince...we're blessed that we can hear all the versions of the songs, I suppose.

Despite his frequent taste for minimalism, Prince had a tendency to what some would call overproduction, though it's mostly a question of perspective.

In some cases it might get in the way of the message or even change it entirely (see The Line), but I for one usually agree with his decision regarding what's to be released or not.

.

Come was a tough choice and I wonder if the jingle bells version as you call it wasn't initially worked as some sort of extended remix for the planned single, then Prince realized what he had and decided to make it the main cut. Arguably the 3 previous versions (original, Glam Slam Ulysses/10000 Wallpaper and Beautiful Experience) were pretty awesome but delivered a message that was more mystical than sexual in nature. The album cut changed that message to something much more sexually oriented and does it brillantly, not to mention the horns extravaganza that follows thanks to MBN's talents. It's not hard to see why Prince would favoir a 12 minutes long soul epic with the most sophisticated horns arrangement ever featured in his music at that point over a 4 minutes techno-funk track that, for all its glory, was more intriguing but less outstanding. In any case, it's safe to assume that the short version that would have been released if not for the long version would have been the more electronic video version, not the Ulysses/Wallpaper one.

.

As for Gold I realize how and why the more, acoustic guitar-led stripped down version is more attractive to all the Dylan/McCartney/Springsteen fans here on the org, but from the perspective of Prince's music, which usually implies more of an electrofunk and synthpop approach than ock/folk, releasing the Gold demo would have been absolute nonsense, as it fails to deliver the message properly. Gold is for all intent and purpose an epic, and loading it with heroic synth as it was eventually done was totally logical. The demo is almost unlistenable for me save for its historical interest, because it totally fails to deliver the message (or, more accurately, delivers only about half of it without the support of the shiny synth sounds). Prince putting this on the album was simply unthinkable.

.

Other choices were more debatable of course: many songs on C&D may have benefited from a more stipped down bass/guitar/drums appraoch because they are rock by nature, and the power trio approach did wonders on I Like It There for example, so lots of organ and horns could have been given-uo on. However I find the released version of C&D (the song) much more agressive and dynamic than the original mix. Same by the way with Endorphinmachine. Prince wished to make the songs more powerful and did so, but maybe lost a bit of the grunge sound in favor of a post-Hendrix sound à la Lenny Kravitz. There are also some edits that are harder to understand: the extended cuts of Race that are featured on the Beautiful Experience and 10000 Wallpapers take a better advantage of the tracks' samples and sound palette than the album version, and may have deserved to make the album, but Prince favored a shorter statement. Billy Jack Bitch also was much more interesting a track with the extended horns part, but admitedly it kind of dissolved the message and took the listener's attention away from what the song was really about, so Prince favored a shorter edit again.

.

In the end, like Bonatoc said elsewhere the other day, Prince choices were rarely gratuitous. Fans tend to think in terms of 'this song/version was better than that one" but the real question is to try and wonder why Prince chose one over another. Ofen, it involves asking oneself "what was the message and which version delivers it best", or "which song works best in the context of that specific album and tracklist".

.

Another good example from the Come/Gold era is Prince's decision to remove Interactive from TGE. Interactive (the short version with the NPG Operator intro and interlude) was a conceptual key to the whole TGE concept and therefore a natural opener for the album since its initial conception, so removing it was quite a puzzling decision. One reason, as stated in the CB booklet, is that Prince felt it didn't work back to back with Endorphinmachine. That's debatable, but arguably Endophinmachine sounds less powerful is played right after Interactive. Prince could have placed it later on the tracklist but for some reason he seemed to want it early on the album and when all was said and done, Endoprhinmachine was unquestionably a stronger, more original track than Interactive. Another probable reason is that Prince recorded P. Control and realized he had one of the strongest album openers of his career in his hands, mostly because of the song's mindblowing intro (I know P. Control is disliked by some fans but let's not discuss this: it's an awesome track, Prince knew it and anyone who thinks otherwise is either deaf or a fool). P. Control could have been played later on the record but it would have been less impactful. On the other hand the same could be said about Interactive: it would have lost most of its conceptual impact if moved to second position. So at the end of the day, Interactive was kicked out by both Enbdoprhinmachine and P. Control. I'm still myself not certain about whether this was the right decision to make, if only because by the time the album was released I had been considering Interactive its natural opener for a year and a half, but I can understand why Prince resolved himself to do it even if it somehow killed the NPG Operator concept in the egg. I still can't figure out why Acknowledge Me and Ripopgodazippa had to go, though, except maybe that Prince moved away a bit from the original's configuration's strong R&B orientation towards a more power rock (for lack of a better term) approach.

[Edited 2/24/18 3:09am]

Excellent analysis! Thanks for taking the time to share it db!! This era (Undertaker/Come/Gold/Exodus + maybe C&D) is among the most interesting of Prince's career, and in my not-so-humble opinion, the band (NPG stripped of superfluous rappers & dancers) was his best ever.

databank said:

SimonCharles said:

I enjoyed reading that. The over-production accusation in an interesting one. It became an evidence obsession through that mid-to-late 90s period...TMBGITW is a prime example of every noun being represented by a sound effect. I like your argument around Come, although I think all versions of the song have an overtly sexual centrality - if anything, the released version becomes a bit comical (to these ears, anyway).

*

Interesting arguments on all the songs mentioned. I would argue that a half-way house between the sunth/guitar and acoustic version of Gold could have worked a treat. C&D...it's a curate's egg of a song...the only time I really enjoyed the riif was during the MTV awards when he put it in the middle of Peach. The in your face/aggressive mode works better for me.

*

I agree with the comment about Prince's choices being "gratuitous", however there is an argument to be made that Prince diluted far too many of his songs through his choices the C&D album also includes Zanalee which would benefit from heving the heavier mix released rather than the, aforementioned, mid-90s sound effect heavy version we have on record.

*

Thanks for taking the time to write so comprehensively. That was a good read!

Thanks for reading and, in turn, replying

.

Regarding overproduction Prince once quoted the film Amadeus, saying people blamed him for putting "too many notes" in his music the same way a character blames Mozart for doing so. Prince clearly had a horror of void in his music. On the other hand his songs are always filled with little details everywhere that makes every measure unlike the next, while lots of pop music is basically built on loops with little if any musical differences between, say, verse one and verse 2, or chorus one and chorus 2. I personally fell in love with Prince's music precisely because it was overcharged with layers and layers of sounds, so in most cases I find the released version of a song superior to the circulating early, more bare-bone versions. Something In The Water (Does Not Compute) is one rare instance where Prince went the other way 'round, by deproducing a song to make it as minimalist as possible, and in that case it was a remarkably smart decision. It's also to be noted that often, Clare Fischer or MBN's arrangements would be heavily edited by Prince, who would only keep those elements he was interested in (and even sometimes use them at another point in the track that what was originally intended by CF or MBN). I would still love to hear Parade with CF's full orchestration: someone (Eric or Susan maybe) once said it would have made for an entirely different record.

.

I love C&D (the album) but I've always felt there were many issues with it: some arrangements don't work so well, the tracklist somehow lacks a certain dynamic or cohesiveness despite the rock orientation. I have the same issues with Planet Earth and AOA: I find those records to suffer from structural flaws. C&D was also, consciously or not, deeply made to sound very mid-90's. It makes it a lovely era-piece for those of us who are nostalgic of that era, but it also makes it quite dated now. Oppositely, The Vault... Old Friends 4 Sale, compiled and completed at the same time, is timeless with its retro jazzy vibe. It would have been interesting for those 2 records to have been released on the same day since they are sort of twin records: P's rock side, P's jazz side: if anything it wouyld have shown his versatility. But of course, there was no point for WB having both records competing with each other.

There is irony then in Prince saying, on the Piano and Mic Tour, that funk lay in the silence - or words to that effect.

*

Interesting what you say about layers, production. Lovesexy is a multi-layered masterclass. There is depth to the tracks on that album, unlike the sound effect laden drip-drop, car horns, "get outta here", tick tock, etc of some of Come, Gold, Emancipation and C&D. There's someting more ... mature - for want of a better word - in some of the more restrained/musical versions of some of his songs mentioned in the original post. That said, as I say, I have no right to second guess Prince. If we also consider some of the impact has had on other's music and - as she is in the news - Janelle Monae's production of Prince makes the Minneapolis Sound seem contemporary. Prince struggled to manage that or attain that on some of his later albums and got, in my opinion, horribly lost with HNR1.

*

Interesting point about The Vault/C&D comparison point. Purposely made to feel mid-90s...that's an interesting idea.

through the 80s albums were mostly limited to about 40 to 50 mins due to the limitations of the LP. That lead to songs like "Computer Blue" being edited down to fit.

In the 90s as CD became the main media album lengths were increased to closer to 80 mins. So we got long albums like D&P and .

But then Come was an LP manageable 48 mins and C&D was 39 with gold at 65 mins (which would require 2 LPs)

So there was room for longer songs... so I wonder why some of the decisions were made?

SimonCharles said:

databank said:

Thanks for reading and, in turn, replying

.

Regarding overproduction Prince once quoted the film Amadeus, saying people blamed him for putting "too many notes" in his music the same way a character blames Mozart for doing so. Prince clearly had a horror of void in his music. On the other hand his songs are always filled with little details everywhere that makes every measure unlike the next, while lots of pop music is basically built on loops with little if any musical differences between, say, verse one and verse 2, or chorus one and chorus 2. I personally fell in love with Prince's music precisely because it was overcharged with layers and layers of sounds, so in most cases I find the released version of a song superior to the circulating early, more bare-bone versions. Something In The Water (Does Not Compute) is one rare instance where Prince went the other way 'round, by deproducing a song to make it as minimalist as possible, and in that case it was a remarkably smart decision. It's also to be noted that often, Clare Fischer or MBN's arrangements would be heavily edited by Prince, who would only keep those elements he was interested in (and even sometimes use them at another point in the track that what was originally intended by CF or MBN). I would still love to hear Parade with CF's full orchestration: someone (Eric or Susan maybe) once said it would have made for an entirely different record.

.

I love C&D (the album) but I've always felt there were many issues with it: some arrangements don't work so well, the tracklist somehow lacks a certain dynamic or cohesiveness despite the rock orientation. I have the same issues with Planet Earth and AOA: I find those records to suffer from structural flaws. C&D was also, consciously or not, deeply made to sound very mid-90's. It makes it a lovely era-piece for those of us who are nostalgic of that era, but it also makes it quite dated now. Oppositely, The Vault... Old Friends 4 Sale, compiled and completed at the same time, is timeless with its retro jazzy vibe. It would have been interesting for those 2 records to have been released on the same day since they are sort of twin records: P's rock side, P's jazz side: if anything it wouyld have shown his versatility. But of course, there was no point for WB having both records competing with each other.

There is irony then in Prince saying, on the Piano and Mic Tour, that funk lay in the silence - or words to that effect.

*

Interesting what you say about layers, production. Lovesexy is a multi-layered masterclass. There is depth to the tracks on that album, unlike the sound effect laden drip-drop, car horns, "get outta here", tick tock, etc of some of Come, Gold, Emancipation and C&D. There's someting more ... mature - for want of a better word - in some of the more restrained/musical versions of some of his songs mentioned in the original post. That said, as I say, I have no right to second guess Prince. If we also consider some of the impact has had on other's music and - as she is in the news - Janelle Monae's production of Prince makes the Minneapolis Sound seem contemporary. Prince struggled to manage that or attain that on some of his later albums and got, in my opinion, horribly lost with HNR1.

*

Interesting point about The Vault/C&D comparison point. Purposely made to feel mid-90s...that's an interesting idea.

The funk is silence idea is an old funk meme. First time I heard that was from Maceo in some mid 90's interview, something in the line of "funk comes from the notes you don't play, not the ones you play".

djThunderfunk said:

databank said:

Despite his frequent taste for minimalism, Prince had a tendency to what some would call overproduction, though it's mostly a question of perspective.

In some cases it might get in the way of the message or even change it entirely (see The Line), but I for one usually agree with his decision regarding what's to be released or not.

.

Come was a tough choice and I wonder if the jingle bells version as you call it wasn't initially worked as some sort of extended remix for the planned single, then Prince realized what he had and decided to make it the main cut. Arguably the 3 previous versions (original, Glam Slam Ulysses/10000 Wallpaper and Beautiful Experience) were pretty awesome but delivered a message that was more mystical than sexual in nature. The album cut changed that message to something much more sexually oriented and does it brillantly, not to mention the horns extravaganza that follows thanks to MBN's talents. It's not hard to see why Prince would favoir a 12 minutes long soul epic with the most sophisticated horns arrangement ever featured in his music at that point over a 4 minutes techno-funk track that, for all its glory, was more intriguing but less outstanding. In any case, it's safe to assume that the short version that would have been released if not for the long version would have been the more electronic video version, not the Ulysses/Wallpaper one.

.

As for Gold I realize how and why the more, acoustic guitar-led stripped down version is more attractive to all the Dylan/McCartney/Springsteen fans here on the org, but from the perspective of Prince's music, which usually implies more of an electrofunk and synthpop approach than ock/folk, releasing the Gold demo would have been absolute nonsense, as it fails to deliver the message properly. Gold is for all intent and purpose an epic, and loading it with heroic synth as it was eventually done was totally logical. The demo is almost unlistenable for me save for its historical interest, because it totally fails to deliver the message (or, more accurately, delivers only about half of it without the support of the shiny synth sounds). Prince putting this on the album was simply unthinkable.

.

Other choices were more debatable of course: many songs on C&D may have benefited from a more stipped down bass/guitar/drums appraoch because they are rock by nature, and the power trio approach did wonders on I Like It There for example, so lots of organ and horns could have been given-uo on. However I find the released version of C&D (the song) much more agressive and dynamic than the original mix. Same by the way with Endorphinmachine. Prince wished to make the songs more powerful and did so, but maybe lost a bit of the grunge sound in favor of a post-Hendrix sound à la Lenny Kravitz. There are also some edits that are harder to understand: the extended cuts of Race that are featured on the Beautiful Experience and 10000 Wallpapers take a better advantage of the tracks' samples and sound palette than the album version, and may have deserved to make the album, but Prince favored a shorter statement. Billy Jack Bitch also was much more interesting a track with the extended horns part, but admitedly it kind of dissolved the message and took the listener's attention away from what the song was really about, so Prince favored a shorter edit again.

.

In the end, like Bonatoc said elsewhere the other day, Prince choices were rarely gratuitous. Fans tend to think in terms of 'this song/version was better than that one" but the real question is to try and wonder why Prince chose one over another. Ofen, it involves asking oneself "what was the message and which version delivers it best", or "which song works best in the context of that specific album and tracklist".

.

Another good example from the Come/Gold era is Prince's decision to remove Interactive from TGE. Interactive (the short version with the NPG Operator intro and interlude) was a conceptual key to the whole TGE concept and therefore a natural opener for the album since its initial conception, so removing it was quite a puzzling decision. One reason, as stated in the CB booklet, is that Prince felt it didn't work back to back with Endorphinmachine. That's debatable, but arguably Endophinmachine sounds less powerful is played right after Interactive. Prince could have placed it later on the tracklist but for some reason he seemed to want it early on the album and when all was said and done, Endoprhinmachine was unquestionably a stronger, more original track than Interactive. Another probable reason is that Prince recorded P. Control and realized he had one of the strongest album openers of his career in his hands, mostly because of the song's mindblowing intro (I know P. Control is disliked by some fans but let's not discuss this: it's an awesome track, Prince knew it and anyone who thinks otherwise is either deaf or a fool). P. Control could have been played later on the record but it would have been less impactful. On the other hand the same could be said about Interactive: it would have lost most of its conceptual impact if moved to second position. So at the end of the day, Interactive was kicked out by both Enbdoprhinmachine and P. Control. I'm still myself not certain about whether this was the right decision to make, if only because by the time the album was released I had been considering Interactive its natural opener for a year and a half, but I can understand why Prince resolved himself to do it even if it somehow killed the NPG Operator concept in the egg. I still can't figure out why Acknowledge Me and Ripopgodazippa had to go, though, except maybe that Prince moved away a bit from the original's configuration's strong R&B orientation towards a more power rock (for lack of a better term) approach.

[Edited 2/24/18 3:09am]

Excellent analysis! Thanks for taking the time to share it db!! This era (Undertaker/Come/Gold/Exodus + maybe C&D) is among the most interesting of Prince's career, and in my not-so-humble opinion, the band (NPG stripped of superfluous rappers & dancers) was his best ever.

OnlyNDaUsa said:

through the 80s albums were mostly limited to about 40 to 50 mins due to the limitations of the LP. That lead to songs like "Computer Blue" being edited down to fit.

In the 90s as CD became the main media album lengths were increased to closer to 80 mins. So we got long albums like D&P and .

But then Come was an LP manageable 48 mins and C&D was 39 with gold at 65 mins (which would require 2 LPs)

So there was room for longer songs... so I wonder why some of the decisions were made?

I think Prince having started his career in the LP era wanted to keep this restriction. At first he probably saw CD's as an opportunity to release what would have been a double album every year, then he probably realized that sometimes a strong 40 mn is better than filling space for the sake of filling space. He wasn't the only one: in the 90's many albums went for 75 minutes, then from the 2000's onwards more and more artists came back to much shorter length, with a lot of records now being around 45 minutes long. In a way, now that digital is the main format, every new album could be 5 hours long but do listeners want that, and can so many artist provide so much good music every few years? I love Emancipation or Crystal Ball but sometimes I just don't listen to them even though I'd like to, because I know I'm in for a 3 hours long ride and I'm not sure I want to listen to 3 hours of Prince in a row.

Now what made Prince decide such album would be longer or shorter, it's hard to say. But interestingly, he never completely filled a CD again after . God knows he recorded enough material so he could have made each and every album 80mn long, but he knew better.

databank said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

through the 80s albums were mostly limited to about 40 to 50 mins due to the limitations of the LP. That lead to songs like "Computer Blue" being edited down to fit.

In the 90s as CD became the main media album lengths were increased to closer to 80 mins. So we got long albums like D&P and .

But then Come was an LP manageable 48 mins and C&D was 39 with gold at 65 mins (which would require 2 LPs)

So there was room for longer songs... so I wonder why some of the decisions were made?

I think Prince having started his career in the LP era wanted to keep this restriction. At first he probably saw CD's as an opportunity to release what would have been a double album every year, then he probably realized that sometimes a strong 40 mn is better than filling space for the sake of filling space. He wasn't the only one: in the 90's many albums went for 75 minutes, then from the 2000's onwards more and more artists came back to much shorter length, with a lot of records now being around 45 minutes long. In a way, now that digital is the main format, every new album could be 5 hours long but do listeners want that, and can so many artist provide so much good music every few years? I love Emancipation or Crystal Ball but sometimes I just don't listen to them even though I'd like to, because I know I'm in for a 3 hours long ride and I'm not sure I want to listen to 3 hours of Prince in a row.

Now what made Prince decide such album would be longer or shorter, it's hard to say. But interestingly, he never completely filled a CD again after . God knows he recorded enough material so he could have made each and every album 80mn long, but he knew better.

Ha! I put up to 7 of his albums (or 50 to 70 songs) on a CDr in MP3 format just so I could if need be! (nearly 5 hours) but I am not sure I would last for all of it either...