OldFriends4Sale said:

I love when 'obscure' songs are discussed and there is possible meaning to relationships experiences or religion etc
I've always had this song and never thought about it beyond the title

So do I. Prince was so unpredictable.

'Swallow the pride and joy of the ivory tower' - evidently a mixed metaphor - it works on many levels...
.

1) 'Pride and joy' is a commonly used term for offspring - and I should imagine his 'ivory tower' was producing millions of potential 'pride and joys' for his partner to swallow!

.
2) We also often say , 'swallow your pride'; in other words, 'come on - don't be shy / stand on ceremony - let's get on with doing these outrageously sinful things we're all dreaming about;
.
3) 'Ivory tower' - when we're detached / supercilious / proud / distant from practicalities (or, in this sense, the real, the carnal). The singer is urging his / her lover to get down (or swallow) from the ivory tower; stop standing on ceremony, being polite and chaste, and consummate those sexual fantasies of which we're all dreaming. They're only 'bizarre' in the context of the repressive, mannered society in which we live!

Dibblekins said:

'Swallow the pride and joy of the ivory tower' - evidently a mixed metaphor - it works on many levels...
.

1) 'Pride and joy' is a commonly used term for offspring - and I should imagine his 'ivory tower' was producing millions of potential 'pride and joys' for his partner to swallow!

.
2) We also often say , 'swallow your pride'; in other words, 'come on - don't be shy / stand on ceremony - let's get on with doing these outrageously sinful things we're all dreaming about;
.
3) 'Ivory tower' - when we're detached / supercilious / proud / distant from practicalities (or, in this sense, the real, the carnal). The singer is urging his / her lover to get down (or swallow) from the ivory tower; stop standing on ceremony, being polite and chaste, and consummate those sexual fantasies of which we're all dreaming. They're only 'bizarre' in the context of the repressive, mannered society in which we live!

I think #2 is a good possibility. Perhaps the person to whom the song is directed was raised by well-to-do college-educated (ivory tower) parents who had instilled in her those values (pride). Hence, maybe he was telling her to swallow her pride and get with the program.

With regard to #1, Prince's "tower" was not "ivory." Didn't he describe himself as "butterscotch"?

OperatingThetan said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I believe the conversion started around late 1997/early 1998

That being said, he also had masturbation and sex toy references in 'Mellow' from 'The Rainbow Children'. 'Supercute', 'Underneath the Cream' and 'Sex Me, Sex Me Not'also had quite heavy sexual content and were released much later. Then there is the original cover from the 'High' album, also used on some promo posters of the Hit 'n' Run tour of the same period.

One reason I love the Rainbow Children, that album for me is the closest to 1980s Prince of his whole latter career. Funny it took joining a religion to bring out the dirty poetics lol

FlyOnTheWall said:

Dibblekins said:

'Swallow the pride and joy of the ivory tower' - evidently a mixed metaphor - it works on many levels...
.

1) 'Pride and joy' is a commonly used term for offspring - and I should imagine his 'ivory tower' was producing millions of potential 'pride and joys' for his partner to swallow!

.
2) We also often say , 'swallow your pride'; in other words, 'come on - don't be shy / stand on ceremony - let's get on with doing these outrageously sinful things we're all dreaming about;
.
3) 'Ivory tower' - when we're detached / supercilious / proud / distant from practicalities (or, in this sense, the real, the carnal). The singer is urging his / her lover to get down (or swallow) from the ivory tower; stop standing on ceremony, being polite and chaste, and consummate those sexual fantasies of which we're all dreaming. They're only 'bizarre' in the context of the repressive, mannered society in which we live!

I think #2 is a good possibility. Perhaps the person to whom the song is directed was raised by well-to-do college-educated (ivory tower) parents who had instilled in her those values (pride). Hence, maybe he was telling her to swallow her pride and get with the program.

With regard to #1, Prince's "tower" was not "ivory." Didn't he describe himself as "butterscotch"?

Indeed - but butterscotch wouldn't have worked in that context, lol!

FlyOnTheWall said:

Dibblekins said:

'Swallow the pride and joy of the ivory tower' - evidently a mixed metaphor - it works on many levels...
.

1) 'Pride and joy' is a commonly used term for offspring - and I should imagine his 'ivory tower' was producing millions of potential 'pride and joys' for his partner to swallow!

.
2) We also often say , 'swallow your pride'; in other words, 'come on - don't be shy / stand on ceremony - let's get on with doing these outrageously sinful things we're all dreaming about;
.
3) 'Ivory tower' - when we're detached / supercilious / proud / distant from practicalities (or, in this sense, the real, the carnal). The singer is urging his / her lover to get down (or swallow) from the ivory tower; stop standing on ceremony, being polite and chaste, and consummate those sexual fantasies of which we're all dreaming. They're only 'bizarre' in the context of the repressive, mannered society in which we live!

I think #2 is a good possibility. Perhaps the person to whom the song is directed was raised by well-to-do college-educated (ivory tower) parents who had instilled in her those values (pride). Hence, maybe he was telling her to swallow her pride and get with the program.

With regard to #1, Prince's "tower" was not "ivory." Didn't he describe himself as "butterscotch"?

YIKES we are talking about Prince's member lol

I think butterscotch was just an anology of an edible color to Tricky's chocolate

Prince was really fair skinned at different times. He is actually way fairing than the color butterscotch.

as a man with Prince's same coloring, it could be 'ivory'

people (even European) can have darker members or lighter

YIKES talking about members lol

FlyOnTheWall said:

Whew! Prince sure loved deeply.
Thank you for this.

Dibblekins said:

'Swallow the pride and joy of the ivory tower' - evidently a mixed metaphor - it works on many levels...
.

1) 'Pride and joy' is a commonly used term for offspring - and I should imagine his 'ivory tower' was producing millions of potential 'pride and joys' for his partner to swallow!

.
2) We also often say , 'swallow your pride'; in other words, 'come on - don't be shy / stand on ceremony - let's get on with doing these outrageously sinful things we're all dreaming about;
.
3) 'Ivory tower' - when we're detached / supercilious / proud / distant from practicalities (or, in this sense, the real, the carnal). The singer is urging his / her lover to get down (or swallow) from the ivory tower; stop standing on ceremony, being polite and chaste, and consummate those sexual fantasies of which we're all dreaming. They're only 'bizarre' in the context of the repressive, mannered society in which we live!

Yeah, it's kind of a stream of consciousness/word salad type of thing. One cliche/idiom leads to the next, and yes, there's definitely something phallic happening there--but in the end I don't think it's something that can be broken back down into anything concrete. This is wordplay almost for wordplay's sake, and not much else.

OperatingThetan said:

databank said:

I believe you remember incorrectly.

The whole TRC album was released first thru NPGMC on 2001/10/16, then commercially on 2001/11/20 while Breathe and M2C were only made available, again thru NPGMC, on 2002/01/17.

IDK what it is that you remember, but it's not the chain of events you describe. If fans were ever asked to choose between those 2 records, I have no recollection of it from that time (I was a premium member) and it doesn't add-up with any further data I've come-up with while doing my chronology research ever since, neither does it add-up with the info on Princevault.

It's always possible that both them and I may have missed something, but highly unlikely. If you could come-up with more detailed information, with dates and specifics, we could re-open the case, but at this point I'd say your memories are confusing you.

I was a premium member also, but judging from your dates I do think my memory may be misleading me. I think it may well date from '98 though, judging from the subject and production style.

"Madrid 2 Chicago" was written and recorded in mid-late 1998 after he bought the Marabella home. Hence, the flight references. It's also around the time he stopped cursing, which is probably the last time you heard him sing "pussy". The album "Madrid 2 Chicago" was scrapped as the marriage was ending and his relationship with M2 was... evolving. "High" was then recorded and was about to be released but then scrapped as "TRC" sessions began.

TrcikyChristopher said:

OperatingThetan said:

databank said: I was a premium member also, but judging from your dates I do think my memory may be misleading me. I think it may well date from '98 though, judging from the subject and production style.

"Madrid 2 Chicago" was written and recorded in mid-late 1998 after he bought the Marabella home. Hence, the flight references. It's also around the time he stopped cursing, which is probably the last time you heard him sing "pussy". The album "Madrid 2 Chicago" was scrapped as the marriage was ending and his relationship with M2 was... evolving. "High" was then recorded and was about to be released but then scrapped as "TRC" sessions began.

Thank you, TrickyChristopher. I just finished rewatching his now legendary interview with Mel B at Paisley Park in 1998. That was an interesting time for him. He was still wearing his wedding ring, but he was, well, let's just say that he was being VERY charming with Melanie. She was melting right before our eyes.

OperatingThetan said:

Contrary to Prince Vault, I recall the NPGMC listing Madrid 2 Chicago as an unreleased album from 1998. At the time, we (the members) were asked to vote for The Rainbow Children or Madrid 2 Chicago as the next released. Based on the two songs released (the title track and 'Breathe') members ended up choosing The Rainbow Children as they felt songs such as 'The Digital Garden' represented a change in direction from Prince and seemed more experimental.

.

NPGMC didn't exist in 1998. NPGMC didn't exist until 2001.

OperatingThetan said:

databank said:

I believe you remember incorrectly.

The whole TRC album was released first thru NPGMC on 2001/10/16, then commercially on 2001/11/20 while Breathe and M2C were only made available, again thru NPGMC, on 2002/01/17.

IDK what it is that you remember, but it's not the chain of events you describe. If fans were ever asked to choose between those 2 records, I have no recollection of it from that time (I was a premium member) and it doesn't add-up with any further data I've come-up with while doing my chronology research ever since, neither does it add-up with the info on Princevault.

It's always possible that both them and I may have missed something, but highly unlikely. If you could come-up with more detailed information, with dates and specifics, we could re-open the case, but at this point I'd say your memories are confusing you.

I was a premium member also, but judging from your dates I do think my memory may be misleading me. I think it may well date from '98 though, judging from the subject and production style.

Consensus is indeed that it was recorded in 1998, as well as Breathe and the rest of the album.

BartVanHemelen said:

I'm aware of that. I was a member. NPGMC released material from various time periods, as you well know.

laurarichardson said:

FlyOnTheWall said:

Do you happen to have any link(s) to when Prince talked about the song? The lyrics are a bit confusing to me. If he's singing about Mayte, you would think the title would depict Madrid as the destination instead of the departure point. Also, when he says, "The opposite of ivory color of your thighs is molded into my mind," that seems to suggest that the object of his affection has dark skin." Really, I'm left wondering if his "connection" in Chicago is about more than a flight layover.

—He is still thinking about her after he left and cannot not wait to return for more of her. Mayte skin was not Ivory she was a brown skin women he is thinking about her brown skin.

Mayte is brown skin?

MMJas said:

laurarichardson said:

FlyOnTheWall said: —He is still thinking about her after he left and cannot not wait to return for more of her. Mayte skin was not Ivory she was a brown skin women he is thinking about her brown skin.

Mayte is brown skin?

Just to be clear, laura said this. Never let it be said that FlyOnTheWall called Mayte brown-skinned. She might have some Afro in her Puerto Rican, but as far as I can see, she looks Spanish. In fairness to laura, though, technically, Puerto Ricans are considered "brown," but this is the reaction of most non-Black-looking Puerto Ricans when you call them "brown":

[Edited 11/19/17 5:20am]

MMJas said:

Right that was what I was thinking.!!!!! I mean yes ok but no. I would totally see her as part of the brownskin community but she has ivory legs. So I disagree
With Laura in the context of the lyric. He is talking to some one the opposite of ivory.

MMJas said:

laurarichardson said:

FlyOnTheWall said: —He is still thinking about her after he left and cannot not wait to return for more of her. Mayte skin was not Ivory she was a brown skin women he is thinking about her brown skin.

Mayte is brown skin?

on if she tans, she's not brown or even light brown

FlyOnTheWall said:

Yes, and he suggested she not worry about her (larger?) butt when they were out on the swing set. He said "A brother likes that." 🤗💜I just re-watched the interview myself recently.
During the word association game, he was trying to see if she had depth. When he asked her what word she thought of when he said, "Cross" though, she failed the test. Instead if saying something like "salvation" or the like, she said, "when things get all cross-crossed and mixed up" (not a direct quote.)
Lol...
He was still extremely kind to her anyway.
Prince was always assessing people for their sincerity and spiritual wisdom. He was SO interested in people who were seekers.
[Edited 11/19/17 7:17am]

FlyOnTheWall said:

Too funny. You truly are the resident archivist.

OldFriends4Sale said:

I always thought Mayte looked pregnant in the photo on the left. Would that be around that time? There are so few pictures of her pregnant - if any, other than the one in her book. Prince must have been so protective of her.

Also, note the delicate, loose finger clasp between them. Prince did that when was really in adoration of a woman. He was very gentle.

databank said:

OperatingThetan said:

Contrary to Prince Vault, I recall the NPGMC listing Madrid 2 Chicago as an unreleased album from 1998. At the time, we (the members) were asked to vote for The Rainbow Children or Madrid 2 Chicago as the next released. Based on the two songs released (the title track and 'Breathe') members ended up choosing The Rainbow Children as they felt songs such as 'The Digital Garden' represented a change in direction from Prince and seemed more experimental.

I believe you remember incorrectly.

The whole TRC album was released first thru NPGMC on 2001/10/16, then commercially on 2001/11/20 while Breathe and M2C were only made available, again thru NPGMC, on 2002/01/17.

IDK what it is that you remember, but it's not the chain of events you describe. If fans were ever asked to choose between those 2 records, I have no recollection of it from that time (I was a premium member) and it doesn't add-up with any further data I've come-up with while doing my chronology research ever since, neither does it add-up with the info on Princevault.

It's always possible that both them and I may have missed something, but highly unlikely. If you could come-up with more detailed information, with dates and specifics, we could re-open the case, but at this point I'd say your memories are confusing you.

You are indeed completely correct, Databank. I've realised I mistook it for the vote on the albums at Prince: A Celebration in 2000, which Madrid 2 Chicago was part of. I've often wondered about those three remaining albums we were promised as part of the second year of the NPGMC, Last December particularly.

OperatingThetan said:

databank said:

I believe you remember incorrectly.

The whole TRC album was released first thru NPGMC on 2001/10/16, then commercially on 2001/11/20 while Breathe and M2C were only made available, again thru NPGMC, on 2002/01/17.

IDK what it is that you remember, but it's not the chain of events you describe. If fans were ever asked to choose between those 2 records, I have no recollection of it from that time (I was a premium member) and it doesn't add-up with any further data I've come-up with while doing my chronology research ever since, neither does it add-up with the info on Princevault.

It's always possible that both them and I may have missed something, but highly unlikely. If you could come-up with more detailed information, with dates and specifics, we could re-open the case, but at this point I'd say your memories are confusing you.

You are indeed completely correct, Databank. I've realised I mistook it for the vote on the albums at Prince: A Celebration in 2000, which Madrid 2 Chicago was part of. I've often wondered about those three remaining albums we were promised as part of the second year of the NPGMC, Last December particularly.

I'd long assumed Last December was an early title for what would become ONA Live (being the title of a song from TRC. Princevault excludes that possibility because the ONA Tour had not taken place yet, but it's possible that Prince had already decided to release a TRC-based live record). However I've recently been told by a reliable source that it could have been a remixed version of TRC. I can't vouch for that info, IDK what my source's source was, but it would make sense.

.

Xenophobia was Xpectation with the addition of the title track, most likely removed because Prince deemed the studio cut fell flat by comparison to the live rendition available on ONA Live.

.

The Very Best Of is likely to have been Prince's rerecorded response to The Very Best Of Prince (à la 1999 The New Master), but this is unconfirmed. It's unlikely Prince would have served us a post WB best of package though, since NPGMC members were likely to already have all those tracks, and the title fails to indicate a compilation of unreleased tracks, so the rerecorded hits seems to be the most logical explaination. It's possible Prince may have considered testing the product with his fan,base before a mass release aimed to compete with WB's compilation.

.

It's quite remakable how many projects were considered for released, announced then shelved during those years.

OldFriends4Sale said:

MMJas said:

Mayte is brown skin?

on if she tans, she's not brown or even light brown

Soooooo...if those were not Mayte's "opposite of ivory color...thighs...molded into [his] mind," just whose were they??? And, I don't think P wrote that as a throwaway line. It seems that he was making it clear to someone that he was thinking and singing about her. He also said, "And I love U, said I love U, I love U, I love U." Was he referring to M2? Or was it someone else?

databank said:

OperatingThetan said:

You are indeed completely correct, Databank. I've realised I mistook it for the vote on the albums at Prince: A Celebration in 2000, which Madrid 2 Chicago was part of. I've often wondered about those three remaining albums we were promised as part of the second year of the NPGMC, Last December particularly.

I'd long assumed Last December was an early title for what would become ONA Live (being the title of a song from TRC. Princevault excludes that possibility because the ONA Tour had not taken place yet, but it's possible that Prince had already decided to release a TRC-based live record). However I've recently been told by a reliable source that it could have been a remixed version of TRC. I can't vouch for that info, IDK what my source's source was, but it would make sense.

.

Xenophobia was Xpectation with the addition of the title track, most likely removed because Prince deemed the studio cut fell flat by comparison to the live rendition available on ONA Live.

.

The Very Best Of is likely to have been Prince's rerecorded response to The Very Best Of Prince (à la 1999 The New Master), but this is unconfirmed. It's unlikely Prince would have served us a post WB best of package though, since NPGMC members were likely to already have all those tracks, and the title fails to indicate a compilation of unreleased tracks, so the rerecorded hits seems to be the most logical explaination. It's possible Prince may have considered testing the product with his fan,base before a mass release aimed to compete with WB's compilation.

.

It's quite remakable how many projects were considered for released, announced then shelved during those years.

It IS remarkable. I hope that means they are in the Vault and will someday be released, in the foreseeable future.

anangellooksdown said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

on if she tans, she's not brown or even light brown

I always thought Mayte looked pregnant in the photo on the left. Would that be around that time? There are so few pictures of her pregnant - if any, other than the one in her book. Prince must have been so protective of her.

yes, I believe this was right after the NAACP Emancipation performance Februar 1997

FlyOnTheWall said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

on if she tans, she's not brown or even light brown

Soooooo...if those were not Mayte's "opposite of ivory color...thighs...molded into [his] mind," just whose were they??? And, I don't think P wrote that as a throwaway line. It seems that he was making it clear to someone that he was thinking and singing about her. He also said, "And I love U, said I love U, I love U, I love U." Was he referring to M2? Or was it someone else?

Manuella Testolini always seemed to have just a little more color than Prince, would get a good deep tan. I could easily, especially as smoothly and quickly Prince transitioned from M1 2 M2

anyone else around that time we know of? Ananda Lewis or Chili(TLC)? both remind me of the exoticness of Susan Moonsie

OldFriends4Sale said:

FlyOnTheWall said:

Soooooo...if those were not Mayte's "opposite of ivory color...thighs...molded into [his] mind," just whose were they??? And, I don't think P wrote that as a throwaway line. It seems that he was making it clear to someone that he was thinking and singing about her. He also said, "And I love U, said I love U, I love U, I love U." Was he referring to M2? Or was it someone else?

Manuella Testolini always seemed to have just a little more color than Prince, would get a good deep tan. I could easily, especially as smoothly and quickly Prince transitioned from M1 2 M2

anyone else around that time we know of? Ananda Lewis or Chili(TLC)? both remind me of the exoticness of Susan Moonsie

We do know of two Black women from Chicago that he was involved with: Robin Power and Cat Glover.

FlyOnTheWall said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Manuella Testolini always seemed to have just a little more color than Prince, would get a good deep tan. I could easily, especially as smoothly and quickly Prince transitioned from M1 2 M2

anyone else around that time we know of? Ananda Lewis or Chili(TLC)? both remind me of the exoticness of Susan Moonsie

We do know of two Black women from Chicago that he was involved with: Robin Power and Cat Glover.

they weren't dark skinned either

I thought Robin said after a certain point she had no more contact with Prince

and by 1998/99 I don't know if Prince was speaking to Cat either, I didn't think they started communicating after that remark she made to him about Mayte in 1991/92(?) that it was mid 2000s or later that he did reconnect with Cat

Wasn't she still in Europe in 1998/99?

OldFriends4Sale said:

FlyOnTheWall said:

We do know of two Black women from Chicago that he was involved with: Robin Power and Cat Glover.

they weren't dark skinned either

I thought Robin said after a certain point she had no more contact with Prince

and by 1998/99 I don't know if Prince was speaking to Cat either, I didn't think they started communicating after that remark she made to him about Mayte in 1991/92(?) that it was mid 2000s or later that he did reconnect with Cat

Wasn't she still in Europe in 1998/99?

I'm not sure of the dates of Cat's stay in London. I've been wondering about that, as well. It is said that she disappeared after she reportedly told him, when he brought Mayte into the Glam Slam (where Cat was working at the time), that he and M1 would never have what the two of them shared. I guess that was a little too close for comfort, even for P, who probably didn't want Ms. Cat to go, well, Chicago up in his fine establishment.

In any case, just because she wasn't seen doesn't mean that she wasn't still around, under the radar. In fact, it's starting to look, to me, like Cat was in Prince's life for a lot longer than was commonly known.

BTW, I don't think the "opposite of ivory" had to mean that the woman was literally dark-skinned. It could have just signified that she was a Black woman, regardless of her actual complexion.

[Edited 11/19/17 9:15am]