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Thread started 11/17/17 3:27am

CherryMoon57

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Did Prince's message really have an impact on the world / his fans?

Throughout his life and career, Prince openly shared beliefs and ideas which, as he went against the mainstream flow, sometimes challenged the establishment and made some feel uncomfortable but he was ‘Prince’ and so that was ok.

It is a fact that Prince often tried to reinforce a message he felt was important for all people: mainly, that we are all equal before one God as well as the message of 'Love4OneAnother'. Some listened, some called him a fool but, celebrity status helping (along with great music) he somehow managed to make his voice heard.

Looking back on his career, it is clear that his discourse didn’t always flow so easily. His small stature, initial nervousness as well as his newcomer status in a fierce competitive environment were some of the first obstacles he had to painfully climb over in order to continue his main mission: to open people’s minds.

Indeed, there is a definite contrast between how Prince was bluntly rejected by a mainstream crowd on that disastrous afternoon of October 9th 1981, when he got booed and even attacked before he could even utter a sound upon that stage, and 26 years later, the solemn exaltation of his 2007 Super Bowl Performance.

He was the same controversial Prince all along, so what happened that made people’s reaction change?

Do you think Prince (and other controversial artists) have achieved their mission to open people’s minds? Is it the value of the message contained in their music that enables some people to reach a celebrity status or is it the other way round: that their voice and music are not validated until that firm hand has pulled them up on the fame train (meaning we are not equal).

Do you think Prince’s impact on the world (or at least on his fans) was real or just a balm destined to soothe one of the most incurable disease in the world: injustice.

Finally, if Prince came back now as a complete stranger (or as he said: ‘as a dolphin’), singing all of these things he sang about and saying all these things that made some feel uncomfortable (including his ‘Slave’ statement), how do you think he would be perceived?

And mostly, how would U perceive him?


[Edited 11/17/17 6:15am]

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Reply #1 posted 11/17/17 4:33am

james

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Maybe his early music attracted a similar, open minded type of fan.

For me his whole "Lovesexy" message was his strongest, and most appealing.

.

Just listening to Dinner with Delores on YouTube for the first time in ages, it's clear how that changed and I think turned people off to any mesaage he tried to give. All a bit judgemental, overtly religious, sometimes sounding racist or homophobic.

.

Although I'm sure some fans became JW as a result of him preaching!

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Reply #2 posted 11/17/17 4:51am

ThatWhiteDude

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I wouldn't follow every way he went. Especially not since he became a JW.

"Like books and BLACK LIVES, Albums still MATTER."


"Extra cheese, extra HAM, extra bullshit" -DiminutiveRocker
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Reply #3 posted 11/17/17 6:00am

BlueShakooo

Prince is my favourite guitar player, singer, arranger and performer.
I love the way he grooved and funked!
The most impressive pop-artist ever!

But when it comes to his lyrics I must say that TO ME he was mostly saying nothing. But with style.
I remember having read an "Around The World"-album review (from back then when it was released).
The critic wrote that Prince'lyrics had a "goofy philosophing"-quality.
Though I love that album I must say that this guy made a good point.

To me Prince's lyrics always sounded good.
But great messages?
Sorry, but no...
"Don't get too serious, it's just a dream."
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Reply #4 posted 11/17/17 6:09am

Slave2daGroove

The question seems odd since you're posting it on a Prince fan site. lol

.

His message/music has attributes that reflect all great artists, each of us identify with something personal. After being a fan for so long, his message for me was to love one another.

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Reply #5 posted 11/17/17 6:19am

CherryMoon57

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Slave2daGroove said:

The question seems odd since you're posting it on a Prince fan site. lol

.

His message/music has attributes that reflect all great artists, each of us identify with something personal. After being a fan for so long, his message for me was to love one another.


Not all fans were Prince fans to begin with. It would be interesting to find out if anyone in that Rolling Stones crowd became a Prince fan later on...
Or even if any of those who had thrown things at him had then gone on to buy any of his records.

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Reply #6 posted 11/17/17 8:07am

lwr001

the tributes fromo conseveratoives and liberals after his passing should answer that.. all the monuments int he world were lit purple that night

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Reply #7 posted 11/17/17 9:05am

lemoncrush19

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well ... looking at this board how people treat him, his beloved ones and each other, complaining about everything, blaming him and others, the tonality, the topics discussed and the way they are discussed, fighting for having a point and the last say ... well ... I'm afraid he didn't reach too many neutral I caught myself beeing pretty sad about that very often during the last months, so I'm glad u asked, cherrymoon.



but then again there's so much love for him, so many still missing him and still grieving ... apparently he touched people in a way no one else did.



there isn't only one simple answer to your very good questions and maybe before we try to find any we should try to figure out his mission and his main message. was there only one? I'm not sure and I tend to believe the answer's no ... and maybe that's the point: being as controversial as he was and always staying genuine and himself, no matter what anybody might have been saying, writing or thinking about him, keeping the faith in himself and of course god and his believes ... maybe this very obvious and strong part of his personality and of course his work was THE message his entire fansbase could admit to ... cuz everyone could find a part of himself in this message.



I personally don't think he tried to open up people's mind to begin with. he just offered what he had to offer - his music. and he did it as colorful and noisy as he could cuz he wanted to be heard and seen. so first of all his message was his music. the more mature he got and the more he evolved the deeper his message grew and yes, as a matter of fact he opened up the minds of those who chose to listen.



>>He was the same controversial Prince all along, so what happened that made people’s reaction change?


nothing. those people at the rolling stones concert in 1981 just didn't take the chance to listen to him. but prince just went on loving himself till everybody else did too. he just continued in not meeting people's expectations on purpose till they changed their expectations into expecting the unexpected.



>>Do you think Prince (and other controversial artists) have achieved their mission to open people’s minds? Is it the value of the message contained in their music that enables some people to reach a celebrity status or is it the other way round: that their voice and music are not validated until that firm hand has pulled them up on the fame train (meaning we are not equal).



well that's a chicken and egg issue ... guess it goes hand in hand ... reaching a celebrity status (and I guess we're not talking about all those social media and reality show "celebrities" but the "real" ones) needs more qualities than having a message (hint: we all have one!!!) and lots of dedication. but at the same time: no we are not all equal as in we all have different talents and different life-tasks. no one is more valuable or better than the other, just different. but I don't think one can keep a mega star status like prince for decades with an unauthentic message or lack of any profound message, whatever it might be.



>>Do you think Prince’s impact on the world (or at least on his fans) was real or just a balm destined to soothe one of the most incurable disease in the world: injustice.



what's the difference? soothing of pain (as a result of injustice or whatever) - even the one of one single person - actually IS real impact, isn't it? no one can heal someone let alone the entire world. so soothing is as much as one person can achieve. and he did ... ooohhh he did in so many different ways ...



>>Finally, if Prince came back now as a complete stranger (or as he said: ‘as a dolphin’), singing all of these things he sang about and saying all these things that made some feel uncomfortable (including his ‘Slave’ statement), how do you think he would be perceived?



this question reminds me of someone around here asking a few months ago if the purple rain movie would be as successful today as it was back then ... all the thoughts he shared, all the visions he had and bold messages he stated were on point at that moment in time ... well many of them were far ahead but they were on his mind at that time ... I guess what I'm trying to say is: dolphin would tell us new things and ideas we are not able to imagine right now.

the only love there is is the love we make heart
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Reply #8 posted 11/17/17 11:01am

databank

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CherryMoon57 said:

Throughout his life and career, Prince openly shared beliefs and ideas which, as he went against the mainstream flow, sometimes challenged the establishment and made some feel uncomfortable but he was ‘Prince’ and so that was ok.

It is a fact that Prince often tried to reinforce a message he felt was important for all people: mainly, that we are all equal before one God as well as the message of 'Love4OneAnother'. Some listened, some called him a fool but, celebrity status helping (along with great music) he somehow managed to make his voice heard.

Looking back on his career, it is clear that his discourse didn’t always flow so easily. His small stature, initial nervousness as well as his newcomer status in a fierce competitive environment were some of the first obstacles he had to painfully climb over in order to continue his main mission: to open people’s minds.

Indeed, there is a definite contrast between how Prince was bluntly rejected by a mainstream crowd on that disastrous afternoon of October 9th 1981, when he got booed and even attacked before he could even utter a sound upon that stage, and 26 years later, the solemn exaltation of his 2007 Super Bowl Performance.

He was the same controversial Prince all along, so what happened that made people’s reaction change?

Do you think Prince (and other controversial artists) have achieved their mission to open people’s minds? Is it the value of the message contained in their music that enables some people to reach a celebrity status or is it the other way round: that their voice and music are not validated until that firm hand has pulled them up on the fame train (meaning we are not equal).

Do you think Prince’s impact on the world (or at least on his fans) was real or just a balm destined to soothe one of the most incurable disease in the world: injustice.

Finally, if Prince came back now as a complete stranger (or as he said: ‘as a dolphin’), singing all of these things he sang about and saying all these things that made some feel uncomfortable (including his ‘Slave’ statement), how do you think he would be perceived?

And mostly, how would U perceive him?


[Edited 11/17/17 6:15am]

Your question is very interesting but the heart of the matter isn't Prince and his message or impact but the era that both produced Prince and was influenced by Prince.

.

As a late baby boomer/early Xer, Prince grew-up in a world most influenced by what could arguably be considered one the most radical era of changes in human history: his views, including the religious aspects of them, were deeply influenced by the progressist, sexually liberated, pacifist, equalitarian philosophy that dominated pop culture in the era he grew in.

.

Then again, Prince impacted a generation of late Xers/early Yers, that was at the same time totally sold into those ideals and desillusioned by how those same baby boomers, their very parents, had failed to truly change the world and "sold out' to the system (in fact they had not failed at all because the world would never be the same, but it was too early for us and we took too many things for granted to realize that).

.

By the time Prince arrived, certain things still needed to be shaken-up in the sense of "young vs. old", including liberating sexuality in the public space, and Prince among others was certainly instrumental in doing that, as well as redefining the notion of masculinity, advocating women's rights, redeeming gays, showing that religion was not necessarily incompatible with sexuality and a lack of social hierarchy, putting peace above politics and ideology, breaking racial prejudice, etc.

.

I'd say that today the lines have moved to a more subtle level. A Black man has been the president of the USA so there's little debate about whether "Black lives matter" or not, nevertheless police violence towards Black people and other forms of discrimination remain an issue.

Similarly, a women was candidate for presidency and nearly won, but the recent sexual abuse scandals show us that a lot has to be achieved in terms of daily, unspoken oppression towards women.

Similarly the debate isn't anymore about whether we should put an end to capitalism but how we're going to make capitalism more ethical in a world of developping countries where, anyway, robots and AI's will soon render work obsolete.

.

Today, despite the little shake-ups of conservatives such as Trump, Putin or Erdogan, the issue isn't really whether young progressive hippies/punks are going to triumph over old rednecks and conservative bourgeois. They have won. Sex, drugs and rock'n'roll have won. The idea that peace is preferable to war has won. The issue isn't about which values we agree on. It's about how we the people are going to implement those new values most people already agree with, on a day to day basis.

.

In that sense, I feel that young people today are less rebellious and more practical. They may seem to be less idealistic but the truth is that they just take for granted what we felt we had to fight for, just like we took for granted what our Baby Boomer parents had fought for (and remember that when we were teens, our folks used to blame us for being spoiiled brats who didn't fight for nothing). Kids today are not anymore fighting about whether we should have a better world or keep living in the Middle Ages, they're trying to figure out how to implement the better world we already all have agreed on having. The next generation is going to have to struggle with much deeper philosophical debates such as the very nature of humanity, but that's something else entirely.

.

So, to get back to your question, if Prince had been born in, say, 1998, and was about to release a contemporary version of For You next year, or even if he'd been born in 1988 and he'd released an critically acclaimed, updated Sign "O" The Times last year, his "rebellion" would probably have moved to a whole different level, a more subtle, more practical and less idealistic, less passionate one. If a young Prince was saying today exactly the same things he was saying in the 80's, his words would probably fall a little flat. Uptown, for example, was a strong claim in 1980, but today it wouldn't exactly reflect a teenager's preoccupation.

.

Of course all of the above is a quick, somewhat caricatural and superficial assessment of the evolution of Western societies, and I'm open to criticism and corrections, but I think there's some truth in it.

[Edited 11/17/17 11:13am]

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #9 posted 11/17/17 11:11am

databank

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CherryMoon57 said:

Do you think Prince (and other controversial artists) have achieved their mission to open people’s minds?

So, in essence, what I meant by the above was yes , they damn have!

And mostly, how would U perceive him?
I haven't replied to that. Contrarily to many other Prince fans, Prince's lyrics and philosophy have had a very strong effect on me. I wouldn't be the same person at all without the influence Prince had on my life, personality and philosophy. But I'm also the product of my time, a time that was in perfect synch with what Prince was preaching. I was born in 1976. I have no idea what sort of a person I'd be had I been born in 1996. And I have no idea how I'd perceive Prince's lyrics if I was to discover them as a 41 year old man in 2016, as opposed to how I perceived them discovering them when I was a teenager at the dawn of the 1990's, and growing alongside Prince and his lyrics ever since.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #10 posted 11/17/17 11:28am

anangellooksdo
wn

Yes, but people don't know how to put it into action.
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Reply #11 posted 11/17/17 12:26pm

CherryMoon57

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Thank you so much for your very thorough and wonderful responses Lemoncrush19 and databank! As there are many interesting and important points to respond to in both of your posts and I don't want to rush my thoughts or on this, I will have to come back and answer them later.





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Reply #12 posted 11/17/17 12:27pm

CherryMoon57

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anangellooksdown said:

Yes, but people don't know how to put it into action.

Very true! heart

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Reply #13 posted 11/17/17 12:29pm

2045RadicalMat
tZ

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lwr001 said:

the tributes fromo conseveratoives and liberals after his passing should answer that.. all the monuments int he world were lit purple that night

once again... unfortunately this was due to "Queen" Elizabeth's 90th birthday for most cases

♫"Trollin, Trolling! We could have fun just trollin'!"♫
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Reply #14 posted 11/17/17 12:46pm

Lovejunky

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2045RadicalMattZ said:

lwr001 said:

the tributes fromo conseveratoives and liberals after his passing should answer that.. all the monuments int he world were lit purple that night

once again... unfortunately this was due to "Queen" Elizabeth's 90th birthday for most cases

yet..if you ask some one...anyone...

WHy was the Eifel TOwer or Niagra Falls all lit up Purple on April 21/22

what would be their answer do you think ?

“LOVE IS THE MASTERPLAN”
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Reply #15 posted 11/17/17 1:00pm

lwr001

2045RadicalMattZ said:

lwr001 said:

the tributes fromo conseveratoives and liberals after his passing should answer that.. all the monuments int he world were lit purple that night

once again... unfortunately this was due to "Queen" Elizabeth's 90th birthday for most cases

wrong,,

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Reply #16 posted 11/17/17 1:03pm

databank

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Lovejunky said:

2045RadicalMattZ said:

once again... unfortunately this was due to "Queen" Elizabeth's 90th birthday for most cases

yet..if you ask some one...anyone...

WHy was the Eifel TOwer or Niagra Falls all lit up Purple on April 21/22

what would be their answer do you think ?

I think if you ask ordinary folks in the street what happened on April 21st, 2016, they will say they have no idea. And they're likely to say the same if a random person (i.e. not their friend they know is a hardcore Prince fan) ask them why the purple monuments on that specific day.

Most people may know who Prince was and that he died at some point 2 years ago, but I don't think too many people remember the date.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #17 posted 11/17/17 1:08pm

67Cadillac

The Prince of 1978-1985? The one who according to the band themselves intentionally formed the Revolution to include black, white, straight, gay, male, and female? The one who attacked critics of his religion and sexuality by essentially saying 'Fuck you, who cares?' in "Controversy"? The one who challenged every norm concerning masculinity, gender identity and sexual dynamics in his songs?

Fuck yes, did he impact me. His early stuff is full of songs that deal with accepting and expressing yourself at your most honest. "Uptown," "Controversy," "D.M.S.R.," and "1999" are all about putting aside superficial differences and loving, living and dancing while you still can, because the chance won't always be there.

I think you can hear Prince's message become less accepting and heading toward an unfortunately more conservative, judgemental direction as early as Lovesexy, but he still seemed to carry some remnants of his former message throughout most of the Symbol era. I think The Truth was the last album where Prince had a glimmer of his earlier edge.

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Reply #18 posted 11/17/17 1:09pm

databank

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lwr001 said:

2045RadicalMattZ said:

once again... unfortunately this was due to "Queen" Elizabeth's 90th birthday for most cases

wrong,,

Actually the Effeil Tower wasn't purple at all on that day, it was an old picture. There were many other "fake" pics like that on social networks.

The Niagara Falls were purple for the Queen, though, as were several other monuments.

A quick Google search can confirm all that.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #19 posted 11/17/17 1:30pm

CherryMoon57

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lemoncrush19 said:

well ... looking at this board how people treat him, his beloved ones and each other, complaining about everything, blaming him and others, the tonality, the topics discussed and the way they are discussed, fighting for having a point and the last say ... well ... I'm afraid he didn't reach too many neutral I caught myself beeing pretty sad about that very often during the last months, so I'm glad u asked, cherrymoon.



but then again there's so much love for him, so many still missing him and still grieving ... apparently he touched people in a way no one else did.



there isn't only one simple answer to your very good questions and maybe before we try to find any we should try to figure out his mission and his main message. was there only one? I'm not sure and I tend to believe the answer's no ... and maybe that's the point: being as controversial as he was and always staying genuine and himself, no matter what anybody might have been saying, writing or thinking about him, keeping the faith in himself and of course god and his believes ... maybe this very obvious and strong part of his personality and of course his work was THE message his entire fansbase could admit to ... cuz everyone could find a part of himself in this message.



I personally don't think he tried to open up people's mind to begin with. he just offered what he had to offer - his music. and he did it as colorful and noisy as he could cuz he wanted to be heard and seen. so first of all his message was his music. the more mature he got and the more he evolved the deeper his message grew and yes, as a matter of fact he opened up the minds of those who chose to listen.



>>He was the same controversial Prince all along, so what happened that made people’s reaction change?


nothing. those people at the rolling stones concert in 1981 just didn't take the chance to listen to him. but prince just went on loving himself till everybody else did too. he just continued in not meeting people's expectations on purpose till they changed their expectations into expecting the unexpected.



>>Do you think Prince (and other controversial artists) have achieved their mission to open people’s minds? Is it the value of the message contained in their music that enables some people to reach a celebrity status or is it the other way round: that their voice and music are not validated until that firm hand has pulled them up on the fame train (meaning we are not equal).



well that's a chicken and egg issue ... guess it goes hand in hand ... reaching a celebrity status (and I guess we're not talking about all those social media and reality show "celebrities" but the "real" ones) needs more qualities than having a message (hint: we all have one!!!) and lots of dedication. but at the same time: no we are not all equal as in we all have different talents and different life-tasks. no one is more valuable or better than the other, just different. but I don't think one can keep a mega star status like prince for decades with an unauthentic message or lack of any profound message, whatever it might be.



>>Do you think Prince’s impact on the world (or at least on his fans) was real or just a balm destined to soothe one of the most incurable disease in the world: injustice.



what's the difference? soothing of pain (as a result of injustice or whatever) - even the one of one single person - actually IS real impact, isn't it? no one can heal someone let alone the entire world. so soothing is as much as one person can achieve. and he did ... ooohhh he did in so many different ways ...



>>Finally, if Prince came back now as a complete stranger (or as he said: ‘as a dolphin’), singing all of these things he sang about and saying all these things that made some feel uncomfortable (including his ‘Slave’ statement), how do you think he would be perceived?



this question reminds me of someone around here asking a few months ago if the purple rain movie would be as successful today as it was back then ... all the thoughts he shared, all the visions he had and bold messages he stated were on point at that moment in time ... well many of them were far ahead but they were on his mind at that time ... I guess what I'm trying to say is: dolphin would tell us new things and ideas we are not able to imagine right now.


Thanks again for your truly wonderful response lemoncrush, so many great insights, so much wisdom... hug heart

I will just add one thing, in response to the part in bold, as I personally think that soothing is a fantastic way of making oneself and others feel better, but sometimes, it can be just that: a superficial way of solving issues and not a preventive way either. Like painkillers, it makes you feel better but doesn't solve anything in depth, and so the issues still continue in the background.

I was therefore questioning the impact that Prince had on his fans and their lives, hoping it was a deep meaningful one for most (it has been for me), and that it had inspired and encouraged them not only to look at things differently but also to try and implement changes at their own level.

All that said, I still agree with you that if someone's music helps someone to just feel better, that is still really a great start to making a better world! smile


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Reply #20 posted 11/17/17 2:03pm

CherryMoon57

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databank said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Throughout his life and career, Prince openly shared beliefs and ideas which, as he went against the mainstream flow, sometimes challenged the establishment and made some feel uncomfortable but he was ‘Prince’ and so that was ok.

It is a fact that Prince often tried to reinforce a message he felt was important for all people: mainly, that we are all equal before one God as well as the message of 'Love4OneAnother'. Some listened, some called him a fool but, celebrity status helping (along with great music) he somehow managed to make his voice heard.

Looking back on his career, it is clear that his discourse didn’t always flow so easily. His small stature, initial nervousness as well as his newcomer status in a fierce competitive environment were some of the first obstacles he had to painfully climb over in order to continue his main mission: to open people’s minds.

Indeed, there is a definite contrast between how Prince was bluntly rejected by a mainstream crowd on that disastrous afternoon of October 9th 1981, when he got booed and even attacked before he could even utter a sound upon that stage, and 26 years later, the solemn exaltation of his 2007 Super Bowl Performance.

He was the same controversial Prince all along, so what happened that made people’s reaction change?

Do you think Prince (and other controversial artists) have achieved their mission to open people’s minds? Is it the value of the message contained in their music that enables some people to reach a celebrity status or is it the other way round: that their voice and music are not validated until that firm hand has pulled them up on the fame train (meaning we are not equal).

Do you think Prince’s impact on the world (or at least on his fans) was real or just a balm destined to soothe one of the most incurable disease in the world: injustice.

Finally, if Prince came back now as a complete stranger (or as he said: ‘as a dolphin’), singing all of these things he sang about and saying all these things that made some feel uncomfortable (including his ‘Slave’ statement), how do you think he would be perceived?

And mostly, how would U perceive him?


[Edited 11/17/17 6:15am]

Your question is very interesting but the heart of the matter isn't Prince and his message or impact but the era that both produced Prince and was influenced by Prince.

.

As a late baby boomer/early Xer, Prince grew-up in a world most influenced by what could arguably be considered one the most radical era of changes in human history: his views, including the religious aspects of them, were deeply influenced by the progressist, sexually liberated, pacifist, equalitarian philosophy that dominated pop culture in the era he grew in.

.

Then again, Prince impacted a generation of late Xers/early Yers, that was at the same time totally sold into those ideals and desillusioned by how those same baby boomers, their very parents, had failed to truly change the world and "sold out' to the system (in fact they had not failed at all because the world would never be the same, but it was too early for us and we took too many things for granted to realize that).

.

By the time Prince arrived, certain things still needed to be shaken-up in the sense of "young vs. old", including liberating sexuality in the public space, and Prince among others was certainly instrumental in doing that, as well as redefining the notion of masculinity, advocating women's rights, redeeming gays, showing that religion was not necessarily incompatible with sexuality and a lack of social hierarchy, putting peace above politics and ideology, breaking racial prejudice, etc.

.

I'd say that today the lines have moved to a more subtle level. A Black man has been the president of the USA so there's little debate about whether "Black lives matter" or not, nevertheless police violence towards Black people and other forms of discrimination remain an issue.

Similarly, a women was candidate for presidency and nearly won, but the recent sexual abuse scandals show us that a lot has to be achieved in terms of daily, unspoken oppression towards women.

Similarly the debate isn't anymore about whether we should put an end to capitalism but how we're going to make capitalism more ethical in a world of developping countries where, anyway, robots and AI's will soon render work obsolete.

.

Today, despite the little shake-ups of conservatives such as Trump, Putin or Erdogan, the issue isn't really whether young progressive hippies/punks are going to triumph over old rednecks and conservative bourgeois. They have won. Sex, drugs and rock'n'roll have won. The idea that peace is preferable to war has won. The issue isn't about which values we agree on. It's about how we the people are going to implement those new values most people already agree with, on a day to day basis.

.

In that sense, I feel that young people today are less rebellious and more practical. They may seem to be less idealistic but the truth is that they just take for granted what we felt we had to fight for, just like we took for granted what our Baby Boomer parents had fought for (and remember that when we were teens, our folks used to blame us for being spoiiled brats who didn't fight for nothing). Kids today are not anymore fighting about whether we should have a better world or keep living in the Middle Ages, they're trying to figure out how to implement the better world we already all have agreed on having. The next generation is going to have to struggle with much deeper philosophical debates such as the very nature of humanity, but that's something else entirely.

.

So, to get back to your question, if Prince had been born in, say, 1998, and was about to release a contemporary version of For You next year, or even if he'd been born in 1988 and he'd released an critically acclaimed, updated Sign "O" The Times last year, his "rebellion" would probably have moved to a whole different level, a more subtle, more practical and less idealistic, less passionate one. If a young Prince was saying today exactly the same things he was saying in the 80's, his words would probably fall a little flat. Uptown, for example, was a strong claim in 1980, but today it wouldn't exactly reflect a teenager's preoccupation.

.

Of course all of the above is a quick, somewhat caricatural and superficial assessment of the evolution of Western societies, and I'm open to criticism and corrections, but I think there's some truth in it.

[Edited 11/17/17 11:13am]


Thanks databank! Your response is a brief but nonetheless great overview of the gradual shift in ideals and values that happened in our western societies since the 1960-70's up until today and I agree that Prince and other controversial artists of his generation have played a considerable part in making this happen. Prince certainly raised a lot of questions through his lyrics, and even though some might argue that it was all in the name of the rhyming game, I do think he also helped in highlighting serious issues and opened a lot of minds in the process.

Most points you have exposed hold a lot of truth, in particular the parts in bold, which I think kind of echoes anangellooksdown's view that most people do recognise the values, but just don't know how to apply them into their lives. This of course raises fundamental questions about our human nature and possibly the roots and causes of 'evil' in general, but only by asking ourselves those questions, will we find the answers.


The next generation is going to have to struggle with much deeper philosophical debates such as the very nature of humanity, but that's something else entirely.
yes ^You have raised a massively important point here.


[Edited 11/17/17 14:06pm]

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Reply #21 posted 11/17/17 2:12pm

2045RadicalMat
tZ

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yes. Prince, Stevie Wonder, Black Sabbath (the words of Geezer Butler mostly), Megadeth and MJ all had a great impact on my post adolescence inquisitiveness and spirituality...considering all their unshakable beliefs... in a higher power of sorts...

They brought me back to a point where I wasn't just ridiculing incredulities, but looking at the smaller aspect of things apart from the myths and "interpretations" to in fact reach a spiritual epiphany a few years later.

I've been far from those days of meditation and balance, but they really helped me reconsider things at a time of turbulence (01-03) with President shit head. 9/11.... the financial reports of 9/10, missing funds, and a general awakening to the mass indoctrination and corruption of the world.

Didn't help that a friend/bandmate was trying to bring me down with him to join the military as an economic solution (even getting into the towel head spiel etc).

Misguided, with neglectful absentee parents.... Indisriminate family etc..

To get a time to look deeper into life's intricacies and one's own existence was something I'm truly grateful for.

Now... Prince's TRC, some people will pan it... but he was going on about similar things. the dates and figures "cryptically" thrown in there.


Say what you will, but the guy was angry, and it remains to this day his most inspired work.

Well....maybe Emancipation as well. But there's tremendous grief to go along with the rest of that


People like P? Yes, helped make a better, more cautious and considerate person out of me. THough it may have happened elsewhere, I took their works as soulful expressions (which song is) and they really presented a better understanding of the value of their art than most people.


♫"Trollin, Trolling! We could have fun just trollin'!"♫
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Reply #22 posted 11/17/17 2:18pm

lemoncrush19

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CherryMoon57 said:

lemoncrush19 said:

well ... looking at this board how people treat him, his beloved ones and each other, complaining about everything, blaming him and others, the tonality, the topics discussed and the way they are discussed, fighting for having a point and the last say ... well ... I'm afraid he didn't reach too many neutral I caught myself beeing pretty sad about that very often during the last months, so I'm glad u asked, cherrymoon.



but then again there's so much love for him, so many still missing him and still grieving ... apparently he touched people in a way no one else did.



there isn't only one simple answer to your very good questions and maybe before we try to find any we should try to figure out his mission and his main message. was there only one? I'm not sure and I tend to believe the answer's no ... and maybe that's the point: being as controversial as he was and always staying genuine and himself, no matter what anybody might have been saying, writing or thinking about him, keeping the faith in himself and of course god and his believes ... maybe this very obvious and strong part of his personality and of course his work was THE message his entire fansbase could admit to ... cuz everyone could find a part of himself in this message.



I personally don't think he tried to open up people's mind to begin with. he just offered what he had to offer - his music. and he did it as colorful and noisy as he could cuz he wanted to be heard and seen. so first of all his message was his music. the more mature he got and the more he evolved the deeper his message grew and yes, as a matter of fact he opened up the minds of those who chose to listen.



>>He was the same controversial Prince all along, so what happened that made people’s reaction change?


nothing. those people at the rolling stones concert in 1981 just didn't take the chance to listen to him. but prince just went on loving himself till everybody else did too. he just continued in not meeting people's expectations on purpose till they changed their expectations into expecting the unexpected.



>>Do you think Prince (and other controversial artists) have achieved their mission to open people’s minds? Is it the value of the message contained in their music that enables some people to reach a celebrity status or is it the other way round: that their voice and music are not validated until that firm hand has pulled them up on the fame train (meaning we are not equal).



well that's a chicken and egg issue ... guess it goes hand in hand ... reaching a celebrity status (and I guess we're not talking about all those social media and reality show "celebrities" but the "real" ones) needs more qualities than having a message (hint: we all have one!!!) and lots of dedication. but at the same time: no we are not all equal as in we all have different talents and different life-tasks. no one is more valuable or better than the other, just different. but I don't think one can keep a mega star status like prince for decades with an unauthentic message or lack of any profound message, whatever it might be.



>>Do you think Prince’s impact on the world (or at least on his fans) was real or just a balm destined to soothe one of the most incurable disease in the world: injustice.



what's the difference? soothing of pain (as a result of injustice or whatever) - even the one of one single person - actually IS real impact, isn't it? no one can heal someone let alone the entire world. so soothing is as much as one person can achieve. and he did ... ooohhh he did in so many different ways ...



>>Finally, if Prince came back now as a complete stranger (or as he said: ‘as a dolphin’), singing all of these things he sang about and saying all these things that made some feel uncomfortable (including his ‘Slave’ statement), how do you think he would be perceived?



this question reminds me of someone around here asking a few months ago if the purple rain movie would be as successful today as it was back then ... all the thoughts he shared, all the visions he had and bold messages he stated were on point at that moment in time ... well many of them were far ahead but they were on his mind at that time ... I guess what I'm trying to say is: dolphin would tell us new things and ideas we are not able to imagine right now.


Thanks again for your truly wonderful response lemoncrush, so many great insights, so much wisdom... hug heart

I will just add one thing, in response to the part in bold, as I personally think that soothing is a fantastic way of making oneself and others feel better, but sometimes, it can be just that: a superficial way of solving issues and not a preventive way either. Like painkillers, it makes you feel better but doesn't solve anything in depth, and so the issues still continue in the background.

I was therefore questioning the impact that Prince had on his fans and their lives, hoping it was a deep meaningful one for most (it has been for me), and that it had inspired and encouraged them not only to look at things differently but also to try and implement changes at their own level.

All that said, I still agree with you that if someone's music helps someone to just feel better, that is still really a great start to making a better world! smile



thanks again cherrymoon for starting this topic and the way you did it ... hug heart

I agree with u - soothing is not solving anything in depth.

but what I was trying to say is: solving anything in depth resp. healing is something no one can do for someone else.

and he did the former far beyond giving us wonderful music.

for example:
paying medical bills for an associate or former band member (which he did more than once) can't heal the person neither his/her financial issues but ... soothing helps pretty much and is all he could do.

or:
writing slave on his cheek and divorcing wb publicly couldn't heal the music industry and solve all the issues other artists might have had ... it just could create awarenss and start a disussion ... which it did. but it needed other people to take action to change their own issues too.

or:
starting a luv4oneanother campaign couldn't heal all the poverty, pain and injustice in the world BUT it actually could sooth the pain of some individuals and that's pretty much all he could do.

in a nutshell: nobody in this world can heal others or solve their issues without themselves assuming responsibility. one can only give the idea or give a kickstart or coach or ... u know ... whatever it might be - at the end of the day people need to take an advise, make decisions and change their own world by themself ... and there's where anangellooksdown's comment is fitting in ... wink

the only love there is is the love we make heart
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Reply #23 posted 11/17/17 2:32pm

CherryMoon57

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databank said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Do you think Prince (and other controversial artists) have achieved their mission to open people’s minds?

So, in essence, what I meant by the above was yes , they damn have!

And mostly, how would U perceive him?
I haven't replied to that. Contrarily to many other Prince fans, Prince's lyrics and philosophy have had a very strong effect on me. I wouldn't be the same person at all without the influence Prince had on my life, personality and philosophy. But I'm also the product of my time, a time that was in perfect synch with what Prince was preaching. I was born in 1976. I have no idea what sort of a person I'd be had I been born in 1996. And I have no idea how I'd perceive Prince's lyrics if I was to discover them as a 41 year old man in 2016, as opposed to how I perceived them discovering them when I was a teenager at the dawn of the 1990's, and growing alongside Prince and his lyrics ever since.


As mentioned in past threads this is also how I feel too about Prince's influence in many aspects of my life.

Although I must admit, my question was a little in connection with how Prince was perceived and received by those Rolling Stones fans in 1981. I was trying to invite people to reflect on how they view new things, new ideas that perhaps challenge their current mindset, and see how objectively they would react to it.

For me it is hard to understand how a crowd of people going to a music concert could be so cruel to a person onstage. But I guess those were different times, and so things would probably be very different now in this very politcally correct world.

Still, to think that the incident occurred well after the 70's 'make love not war' revolution, makes you wonder if the human nature does change at all. There is perhaps a part of us that refuses to acknowledge our ugly tendencies.

Also, this kind of group phenomena and herd mentality often raises serious questions not just about us as individuals but also about how we function as a society as well, our interactions with each other, etc. He was clearly being 'bullied' at the time (all against one) and bullying is still very alive and kicking in our current world...

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Reply #24 posted 11/17/17 3:03pm

CherryMoon57

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lemoncrush19 said:

CherryMoon57 said:


Thanks again for your truly wonderful response lemoncrush, so many great insights, so much wisdom... hug heart

I will just add one thing, in response to the part in bold, as I personally think that soothing is a fantastic way of making oneself and others feel better, but sometimes, it can be just that: a superficial way of solving issues and not a preventive way either. Like painkillers, it makes you feel better but doesn't solve anything in depth, and so the issues still continue in the background.

I was therefore questioning the impact that Prince had on his fans and their lives, hoping it was a deep meaningful one for most (it has been for me), and that it had inspired and encouraged them not only to look at things differently but also to try and implement changes at their own level.

All that said, I still agree with you that if someone's music helps someone to just feel better, that is still really a great start to making a better world! smile



thanks again cherrymoon for starting this topic and the way you did it ... hug heart

I agree with u - soothing is not solving anything in depth.

but what I was trying to say is: solving anything in depth resp. healing is something no one can do for someone else.

and he did the former far beyond giving us wonderful music.

for example:
paying medical bills for an associate or former band member (which he did more than once) can't heal the person neither his/her financial issues but ... soothing helps pretty much and is all he could do.

or:
writing slave on his cheek and divorcing wb publicly couldn't heal the music industry and solve all the issues other artists might have had ... it just could create awarenss and start a disussion ... which it did. but it needed other people to take action to change their own issues too.

or:
starting a luv4oneanother campaign couldn't heal all the poverty, pain and injustice in the world BUT it actually could sooth the pain of some individuals and that's pretty much all he could do.

in a nutshell: nobody in this world can heal others or solve their issues without themselves assuming responsibility. one can only give the idea or give a kickstart or coach or ... u know ... whatever it might be - at the end of the day people need to take an advise, make decisions and change their own world by themself ... and there's where anangellooksdown's comment is fitting in ... wink


Oh yes of course! And all these things were not just of the soothing type, those are great examples showing that he did practise what he preached and that I'm sure tremendously and positively impacted on many lives! My post was more about the inspirational messages in his songs, but I am glad that you brought up this important reminder of his great actions that speak even louder than words.

I know that he didn't boast about his charitable work during his lifetime probably due to the bible message that forbids bragging of our charitable actions:

(Matthew 6:2)

1Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing

...though I wonder if more people had known about it at the time, it might have helped break the misconception many non-fans had of him as a superficial person.

[Edited 11/17/17 15:11pm]

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Reply #25 posted 11/17/17 3:44pm

2045RadicalMat
tZ

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CherryMoon57 said:

lemoncrush19 said:


thanks again cherrymoon for starting this topic and the way you did it ... hug heart

I agree with u - soothing is not solving anything in depth.

but what I was trying to say is: solving anything in depth resp. healing is something no one can do for someone else.

and he did the former far beyond giving us wonderful music.

for example:
paying medical bills for an associate or former band member (which he did more than once) can't heal the person neither his/her financial issues but ... soothing helps pretty much and is all he could do.

or:
writing slave on his cheek and divorcing wb publicly couldn't heal the music industry and solve all the issues other artists might have had ... it just could create awarenss and start a disussion ... which it did. but it needed other people to take action to change their own issues too.

or:
starting a luv4oneanother campaign couldn't heal all the poverty, pain and injustice in the world BUT it actually could sooth the pain of some individuals and that's pretty much all he could do.

in a nutshell: nobody in this world can heal others or solve their issues without themselves assuming responsibility. one can only give the idea or give a kickstart or coach or ... u know ... whatever it might be - at the end of the day people need to take an advise, make decisions and change their own world by themself ... and there's where anangellooksdown's comment is fitting in ... wink


Oh yes of course! And all these things were not just of the soothing type, those are great examples showing that he did practise what he preached and that I'm sure tremendously and positively impacted on many lives! My post was more about the inspirational messages in his songs, but I am glad that you brought up this important reminder of his great actions that speak even louder than words.

I know that he didn't boast about his charitable work during his lifetime probably due to the bible message that forbids bragging of our charitable actions:

(Matthew 6:2)

1Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing

...though I wonder if more people had known about it at the time, it might have helped break the misconception many non-fans had of him as a superficial person.

[Edited 11/17/17 15:11pm]

truth.

But then again... many non fans had nothing but superficiality from which to "know" him.

Fairer even...many PR era "Fans" just dropped his ship and considered him a wacko, they just wanted to hear the hits... (fROM THEN)

instead.. we all got the mind of a growing, giving person

♫"Trollin, Trolling! We could have fun just trollin'!"♫
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Reply #26 posted 11/17/17 4:01pm

CherryMoon57

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2045RadicalMattZ said:

CherryMoon57 said:


Oh yes of course! And all these things were not just of the soothing type, those are great examples showing that he did practise what he preached and that I'm sure tremendously and positively impacted on many lives! My post was more about the inspirational messages in his songs, but I am glad that you brought up this important reminder of his great actions that speak even louder than words.

I know that he didn't boast about his charitable work during his lifetime probably due to the bible message that forbids bragging of our charitable actions:

(Matthew 6:2)

1Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing

...though I wonder if more people had known about it at the time, it might have helped break the misconception many non-fans had of him as a superficial person.

[Edited 11/17/17 15:11pm]

truth.

But then again... many non fans had nothing but superficiality from which to "know" him.

Fairer even...many PR era "Fans" just dropped his ship and considered him a wacko, they just wanted to hear the hits... (fROM THEN)

instead.. we all got the mind of a growing, giving person


yes I guess many things have a deeper meaning when we just start digging into them...

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Reply #27 posted 11/17/17 4:18pm

CherryMoon57

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Thanks everyone! I loved reading all these different insights.
It's now getting late here, but I look forward to continue answering your posts tomorrow.

grouphug

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Reply #28 posted 11/17/17 4:19pm

ThatWhiteDude

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CherryMoon57 said:

Thanks everyone! I loved reading all these different insights.
It's now getting late here, but I look forward to continue answering your posts tomorrow.

grouphug

Good Night CherryMoon57 smile

"Like books and BLACK LIVES, Albums still MATTER."


"Extra cheese, extra HAM, extra bullshit" -DiminutiveRocker
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Reply #29 posted 11/18/17 4:35am

cfluid

i personally think - No. Prince was complex, the world loved him but honestly i think his message of love and unity gets lost in the details , just my opinion but many outside of our circle see him as just a very talented freaky fuck. purple rain is the one song that endears him 2 people and eludes 2 a human side but the songs people know him for otherwise are simply about the funk, now if u delve deeper then that's where we come in as true fans and know that he was a really deep guy. 4 some reason i believe that he created a persona and stuck with it. I'm just glad that i got it. maybe history will be kind and since he was far ahead of his time maybethe masses will come around and understand and give him his just dues when it comes 2 how much he actually tried 2 send a message of unity in much of his music.

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