The 'Symbol' album is a classic just the way it is,with Tony M. and all the rapping.It's actually my favorite Prince album of the 90s.Tony is not the greatest rapper but he doesn't ruin these songs in any way.

Someone mentioned that Prince should have kept the lost segues on the album.I disagree.Yes,it might have explained the story a little better,but it would have slowed down the album.He would have had to insert a segue after EVERY song and it would have been a distraction.

purpleone1980 said:

Both of those records could have been really good without the rap. There were some very strong tracks on both of them but the albums were both ruined with the uninspired rap.

The "Symbol" album was really quite good... even with Tony M's bullshit.

DavidEye - I totally agree with you

Not counting the compilations 'The Hits/B-Sides' and 'Crystal Ball', is probably my favourite 90's Prince album.

There are some AMAZING songs on 'Diamonds & Pearls' (I couldn't live without tracks like 'Insatiable', Money Don't Matter 2nite' and 'Cream') but - taken as a whole - I think flows much better.

Okay, let me get a few things out of the way.

Janfriend said:

Most likely. He's a child of God and I wish him no ill, but he's a terrible MC.

[quote] I don't think so. I just think some of you are afraid to admit that you liked him too, since everybody's drinkin that HATORADE! [/quotes]

I liked him in "Willing & Able" and the background of "Gett Off" as well as the interlude with Carmen in "Love 2 The 9's." The rest of his contributions were ga-bige. So I'll take mine lemon-lime, with crushed ice.



Do me a favor: listen to "Rebel Without A Pause," "The Message," "Sucker MC's," "Scenario," "Bonita Applebum," "Me Myself & I," "I Used To Love H.E.R.," "My Umi" and "Get By" in succession. Those are true "hip-hop" classics, among many others. THEN listen to "The Flow." Then you'll see why I think there's a difference between a classic hop-hop track and a classic "rap" track.



Now, wait. Most of those songs you mentioned are decent, to very good. But P's best rhyme was "irresistible bitch."


Now, as for skywalker, he said:



I respectfully and vigorously disagree. I grew up with hip-hop, and while I am a little older, Tony M is a rapper, and a wack one at that. As for a rhymer, Prince saw better days than Symbol. Hip-hop is reserved for those MCs/acts who are dedicated to the genre: The Furious Five, Schooly D, BDP, Public Enemy, MC Lyte, Gang Starr, De La, The Jungle Brothers, ATCQ, Black Star, Common, B.I.G., The Roots, Common, The D.O.C., The Roots, and so on. I dig Symbol, especially the classic "And God Created Woman." But the rapping on the Symbol LP was the essence of butter-soft wackness.
[This message was edited Fri Apr 18 13:41:14 PDT 2003 by namepeace]

alexnvrmnd said:

I agree. I grew up on hip-hop (born in '74). I personally like P's hip-hop influenced songs because I'm admittedly strange. I can forgive P's butchering of the art form and even find it entertaining because of the other things he can do and the fact he didn't seem to take himself too seriously while doing it. Tony M on the other hand is horrendous. He has a good voice but his lyrics and misplaced pseudo-street tone have no place on a professional musician's product. I can see why WB lost a lot of patience with P.
Simply put, Tony M killed hip-hop and Prince gave him the gun/mic. Well, perhaps money killed it but that's another story.

namepeace said:[quote]Okay, let me get a few things out of the way.

Janfriend said:

Most likely. He's a child of God and I wish him no ill, but he's a terrible MC.



I shoulda read this first and just agreed. I wasn't gonna
go there and make the distinction but there's a definite difference between rap and hip-hop. Tony M is definitely part of the former but I'd hate to insult those P Diddy types.
By the way, good list of MCs/groups but where's Andre, Nas, Rakim, Pac, and even my man LL Cool J? Glad to see the D.O.C. and Gang Starr gettin some love.

Tony M is a better rapper than TC Ellis

Nikster said:

That is extraordinarily disturbing, but correct.

namepeace said:

And Carmen Electra is better than both of them










What? I actually LIKE her cd!!!

Nikster said:
---
Tony M is a better rapper than TC Ellis


That's kinda like saying Winger was a better hair metal band than Poison.Although, given the choice of torture, should I get sent to hell,I'd listen to Winger and Poison for eternity rather than have to listen to Tony McDonald's(That's where he's working now) or TC Ellis for that matter. Tony M's MOUTH IN MANURE line from My Name is Prince is perhaps the worst rap I have ever heard. And the live performances with those "Star Trek" Uniforms on...UGGGHHH...and live, he wasn't rapping, he was yelling...I can't believe how lame it was, and to this day can't figure out what possessed a serious musician like Prince to put up with that, while keeping songs like "Moonbeam Levels," and the original version of "Old Friends 4 Sale," on the shelf...oh well...

stillwaiting said:

Yes yes...that's all well and good, BUT WHAT ABOUT WARRANT???








ok ok ok...I'll behave

I never minded the rap except maybe on ...The FLOW

I always thought the segues were much worse than Tony M ever was.

several otherwise great Prince records were seriously flawed by his retarded play acting and other nonsense

Rudy said:

Hahaha the symbol/3 Chains Of Gold storyline sucked yeah.

namepeace said:[quote]Okay, let me get a few things out of the way.

Janfriend said:



Do me a favor: listen to "Rebel Without A Pause," "The Message," "Sucker MC's," "Scenario," "Bonita Applebum," "Me Myself & I," "I Used To Love H.E.R.," "My Umi" and "Get By" in succession. Those are true "hip-hop" classics, among many others. THEN listen to "The Flow." Then you'll see why I think there's a difference between a classic hop-hop track and a classic "rap" track.


I meant a classic rap song by Prince. I don't compare his shit with the others. And the songs you list are all from the same time or close. Pick something from the early eighties and something not from Tribe Called Quest, Leaders of the New School, or De La Soul. None of those artists whose songs you mentioned are what I consider legendary lyricists

The rap is pretty crappy

I rather like the symbol album and diamonds and pearls, myself.

What makes the guy's rap crappy, bad? In comparison to other "rap artists"?

The choice of words, the rhythm/cadence of his rhymes,
the placement in the songs, etc???
Would it have been "better" rap if someone like Snoop Dogg, Biggie Smalls, IceCube or Tupac did the rap?

I just don't see what the big deal is. Prince explored and experimented with a popular trend, and I'm glad he did it with an "unknown" rapper.
It's done, it stands as is, it was interesting and now he's moved on.
At least it wasn't gang bangin' and thuggin' "nigga" bulls*it.

My

Janfriend said:



Fair enough. Relative to Prince "rap" cuts, It doesn't compare to "I.B." and is decent.




Now, wait a minute. A hip-hop classic, as I originally understood your meaning, has no relation to the era. It was a general statement inviting comparisons to tracks of all eras.

That being said, Symbol dropped in 1992. And you want me to go back to the EARLY 80's to find hip-hop tracks, when the artists I mentioned dropped their LPs only 1-3 years before Symbol dropped? I don't get that, but okay. How about "I Can't Live Without My Radio," "La Di Da Di," "The Bridge Is Over," "Friends," "Rock Box," etc.?




And you call THE FLOW a "classic" rap song (Prince rap or not)? If you don't think Q-Tip, Busta Rhymes, Posdunous & Trugoy aren't "legendary lyricists," well, not much I can say to that. I'd love to see your list sometime.

I liked the LP too. I never said Tony M never did anything right, he just ruined more songs than he helped.



Flow, technique, pace, content . . . a lot of it also depends on the time a new MC comes on the scene. Tony M's style was about ten years behind when he dropped.



Exactly.



I would say, most likely, but I would have liked to have heard De La, Black Thought, Q-Tip, Digables, or Common on a track. I even halfway dug Chuck D's turn on "Undisputed,"



Sure. I wish he could have found a more talented one, though.



Agreed. Now he's working with better MCs.




Agreed.