CAL3 said:

.

RE: TGE as 'Purple Rain' of the '90s -- P certainly seemed to intend it to be, which is part of the album's weakness.

.

RE: the "message" of 'Come' - what would you say the message is?

.

If anything, I'd sum up the "message" sent by 'Come' as 'I don't want to be associated with Warner anymore' -- which had little to do with the record's actual content, except that he knowingly delivered subpar material. The fans paid the price.

I don't think Prince purposely set out to remake Purple Rain, but the similarities are there. I think he did set out to make a more commercially viable album.

Endorphinmachine - Let's Go Crazy (the rocker)

We March - Take Me With U (the duet)

Shhh, TMBGITW, I Hate U - The Beautiful Ones (the ballad)

Billy Jack Bitch - Computer Blue (the funk/rock workout)

319 - Darling Nikki (the sex)

Dolphin - When Doves Cry (the lament)

Now - Baby I'm A Star (the party song)

Gold - Purple Rain (the power anthem)

more or less.

The messages on COME were pretty obvious: Don't abuse children, or else they turn out like P. Franky if one wanted to delve deeper into the psychology of it, one could argue that the abused child in "Papa" grew up to feel worthless (Solo), became sensitive to violence (Race), and got himself into another overpowering/powerless relationship (Letitgo).

TrivialPursuit said:

CAL3 said:

.

RE: TGE as 'Purple Rain' of the '90s -- P certainly seemed to intend it to be, which is part of the album's weakness.

.

RE: the "message" of 'Come' - what would you say the message is?

.

If anything, I'd sum up the "message" sent by 'Come' as 'I don't want to be associated with Warner anymore' -- which had little to do with the record's actual content, except that he knowingly delivered subpar material. The fans paid the price.

I don't think Prince purposely set out to remake Purple Rain, but the similarities are there. I think he did set out to make a more commercially viable album.

Endorphinmachine - Let's Go Crazy (the rocker)

We March - Take Me With U (the duet)

Shhh, TMBGITW, I Hate U - The Beautiful Ones (the ballad)

Billy Jack Bitch - Computer Blue (the funk/rock workout)

319 - Darling Nikki (the sex)

Dolphin - When Doves Cry (the lament)

Now - Baby I'm A Star (the party song)

Gold - Purple Rain (the power anthem)

more or less.

The messages on COME were pretty obvious: Don't abuse children, or else they turn out like P. Franky if one wanted to delve deeper into the psychology of it, one could argue that the abused child in "Papa" grew up to feel worthless (Solo), became sensitive to violence (Race), and got himself into another overpowering/powerless relationship (Letitgo).

.

I didn't realize that by the message of 'Come,' you meant simply the message of the song 'Papa,' which I agreee is pretty obvious.

.

Connecting that to the rest of the songs on the album, as if to suggest there was an overarching concept, is - IMO - a bit of a stretch.

Yes. You can tell he was very depressed. Looking back the album is decent, but hard to listen to especially side 2.

Took me many years to really like this album but 1993-1995 were very trying times for me as a fam. Goodness.

CAL3 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

I'd agree. A masterpiece is in one's own taste and perspective. I think The Gold Experience is a masterpiece. A lot of folks don't. (Frankly, I've always said it was the Purple Rain of the 90s.)

COME is certainly a wonderful record, front to back. It has a flow to it, a message, a feel, a sound. It's pretty amazing considering the other material recorded around the same time that sounds very different. Tracks from TGE are brighter most times than in comparison to those on COME being a moodier album. Then you have stuff like Chaos and Disorder recorded and put together in the same time frame as Emancipation, the former sounding very raw and rock oriented, but the latter having one of the first forays into that acrylic plastic over-compressed sound he went with for another two decades.

A masterpiece is relative, and I'd say COME is pretty close to the top of the list in the scope, at least, of his 90s music.

.

RE: TGE as 'Purple Rain' of the '90s -- P certainly seemed to intend it to be, which is part of the album's weakness.

.

RE: the "message" of 'Come' - what would you say the message is?

.

If anything, I'd sum up the "message" sent by 'Come' as 'I don't want to be associated with Warner anymore' -- which had little to do with the record's actual content, except that he knowingly delivered subpar material. The fans paid the price.

I can't believe anyone could say with a straight face that Come is subpar

No, I don't believe Come is Prince's "darkest" record. The Black Album is ALOT darker with 1999 a close second....Come does have a very weird, upsetting vibe that I feel drawn to sometimes, however. You can really feel something is amiss with songs like Papa and Solo, but yet there are lighter moments like the title track that give it (some) balance. You can sense from this album that he wasn't in a good place. When I listen to it now, it still resonates with me. It's not him at his most sinister, but it's no dance around the maypole either...

Maybe.

I came here to say it's brilliant though.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

CAL3 said:

.

RE: TGE as 'Purple Rain' of the '90s -- P certainly seemed to intend it to be, which is part of the album's weakness.

.

RE: the "message" of 'Come' - what would you say the message is?

.

If anything, I'd sum up the "message" sent by 'Come' as 'I don't want to be associated with Warner anymore' -- which had little to do with the record's actual content, except that he knowingly delivered subpar material. The fans paid the price.

I can't believe anyone could say with a straight face that Come is subpar

.

Who said anything about a straight face?

.

It pains me to face what a profound disappointment 'Come' was upon its release - perplexing at the time, and only easier to understand why it was such a lowly record as the years went on.

.

I say it with a very sad face.

CAL3 said:

CAL3 said:

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

I can't believe anyone could say with a straight face that Come is subpar

.

Who said anything about a straight face?

.

It pains me to face what a profound disappointment 'Come' was upon its release - perplexing at the time, and only easier to understand why it was such a lowly record as the years went on.

.

I say it with a very sad face.

Its def not an album I would play with friends, that says much about it.

At the time I have to say I did not like the album and pretty much ignored it as one of the worst he released. It has grown overtime however.

Rolling Stone: ** of 5

dodger said:

CAL3 said:

.

RE: TGE as 'Purple Rain' of the '90s -- P certainly seemed to intend it to be, which is part of the album's weakness.

.

RE: the "message" of 'Come' - what would you say the message is?

.

If anything, I'd sum up the "message" sent by 'Come' as 'I don't want to be associated with Warner anymore' -- which had little to do with the record's actual content, except that he knowingly delivered subpar material. The fans paid the price.

I know Come could have been better if he'd have given WB the likes of Interactive, Strays Of The World or Endorphinmachine (as per the March 94 configuration) but I don't think 'he knowingly delivered subpar material' . Half the album was featured on The Beautiful Experience TV special; Papa, Pheromone, Race, Loose, Come (albeit different version) and even a bit of Orgasm, and he played a lot of it live. . He had a great batch of material around this time and spread it across different formats, plus some later ended up on Crystal Ball.

.

That's the thing - whatever I, you, or anyone thinks of the material itself, he willfully diluted any cohesive impact it might've had by that "spreading around" and by reconfiguring it.

.

'Come' was a contractual filler, the first real clear lashing out at WB and attempt at extricating himself from a situation he didn't want to be part of any longer. Followed in short order by dumping the Black album onto the market finally.

.

Though he promoted the album somewhat, it seems clear he didn't have much emotional investment in 'Come.' I do believe it was knowingly subpar in the sense that it was a dumping of stuff that wasn't great - and which he knew wasn't great - in order to check another one off the list. Same with Chaos, some with Old Friends 4 Sale.

CAL3 said:

dodger said:

CAL3 said:

.

That's the thing - whatever I, you, or anyone thinks of the material itself, he willfully diluted any cohesive impact it might've had by that "spreading around" and by reconfiguring it.

.

'Come' was a contractual filler, the first real clear lashing out at WB and attempt at extricating himself from a situation he didn't want to be part of any longer. Followed in short order by dumping the Black album onto the market finally.

.

Though he promoted the album somewhat, it seems clear he didn't have much emotional investment in 'Come.' I do believe it was knowingly subpar in the sense that it was a dumping of stuff that wasn't great - and which he knew wasn't great - in order to check another one off the list. Same with Chaos, some with Old Friends 4 Sale.

Yes, it was contractual filler but that doesn't make it a bad album. As per The Black Album and Chaos & Disorder IMO, of course The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale is an obvious case of contractual filler. . If he thought it was knowingly subpar would he be making videos and playing a lot of it live along with his so called favoured Gold tracks? I don't think so. Same applies to a lesser extent with C&D IMO. . I guess my point is around this time he had that much great material he could have released an awesome double or triple album but had to spread it across Gold, Come, Exodus, C&D, The Undertaker, The Beautiful Experience, and some great maxi-singles

Hmmm... I'm not so sure. He was putting on a show of artistic integrity at the time, but I don't think he in any way was above playing some tracks off those albums to push a few more sales. Even if he thought it was "subpar."

That said, I feel like Prince developed a somewhat shoddy sense of "par" in those years that he adhered to off and on the for rest of his career, regardless of whatever artistic scruples he was trying to give the impression of maintaining. I mean, when given the chance to release something he supposedly deemed up to par, we wound up with Emancipation and Crystal Ball... Plenty of good stuff on those, and many would argue against me here, but I don't think I'm alone in saying a big chuck of both of those massive sets met a fairly objective definition for "subpar."

[Edited 8/28/17 15:21pm]

dodger said:

CAL3 said:

.

That's the thing - whatever I, you, or anyone thinks of the material itself, he willfully diluted any cohesive impact it might've had by that "spreading around" and by reconfiguring it.

.

'Come' was a contractual filler, the first real clear lashing out at WB and attempt at extricating himself from a situation he didn't want to be part of any longer. Followed in short order by dumping the Black album onto the market finally.

.

Though he promoted the album somewhat, it seems clear he didn't have much emotional investment in 'Come.' I do believe it was knowingly subpar in the sense that it was a dumping of stuff that wasn't great - and which he knew wasn't great - in order to check another one off the list. Same with Chaos, some with Old Friends 4 Sale.

Yes, it was contractual filler but that doesn't make it a bad album. As per The Black Album and Chaos & Disorder IMO, of course The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale is an obvious case of contractual filler. . If he thought it was knowingly subpar would he be making videos and playing a lot of it live along with his so called favoured Gold tracks? I don't think so. Same applies to a lesser extent with C&D IMO. . I guess my point is around this time he had that much great material he could have released an awesome double or triple album but had to spread it across Gold, Come, Exodus, C&D, The Undertaker, The Beautiful Experience, and some great maxi-singles

.

Oh I agree - I happen to quite like 'Chaos' - but while it doesn't make it a bad album, it makes it hard to see that work as great albums.

.

As for the 'could haves' - yes, I agree, there was probably a great album in there somewhere. But no, it didn't have to be spread out across a bunch of projects. He lost sight of his artistic vision during this period and never fully recovered it.

johnnyribcage said:

dodger said:

CAL3 said: Yes, it was contractual filler but that doesn't make it a bad album. As per The Black Album and Chaos & Disorder IMO, of course The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale is an obvious case of contractual filler. . If he thought it was knowingly subpar would he be making videos and playing a lot of it live along with his so called favoured Gold tracks? I don't think so. Same applies to a lesser extent with C&D IMO. . I guess my point is around this time he had that much great material he could have released an awesome double or triple album but had to spread it across Gold, Come, Exodus, C&D, The Undertaker, The Beautiful Experience, and some great maxi-singles

Hmmm... I'm not so sure. He was putting on a show of artistic integrity at the time, but I don't think he in any way was above playing some tracks off those albums to push a few more sales. Even if he thought it was "subpar."

That said, I feel like Prince developed a somewhat shoddy sense of "par" in those years that he adhered to off and on the for rest of his career, regardless of whatever artistic scruples he was trying to give the impression of maintaining. I mean, when given the chance to release something he supposedly deemed up to par, we wound up with Emancipation and Crystal Ball... Plenty of good stuff on those, and many would argue against me here, but I don't think I'm alone in saying a big chuck of both of those massive sets met a fairly objective definition for "subpar."

[Edited 8/28/17 15:21pm]

.

These are terrific points that I agree with wholeheartedly.

.

And I don't know anymore than the next person how P truly assessed the artistic value and validity of these or any other songs/albums. It's not like he was particularly forthcoming in self-assessment of his work. But after crafting such a long string of carefully paced albums, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt that he had to have known was a mixed bag (at best) 'Come' really was.

johnnyribcage said:

dodger said:

CAL3 said: Yes, it was contractual filler but that doesn't make it a bad album. As per The Black Album and Chaos & Disorder IMO, of course The Vault: Old Friends 4 Sale is an obvious case of contractual filler. . If he thought it was knowingly subpar would he be making videos and playing a lot of it live along with his so called favoured Gold tracks? I don't think so. Same applies to a lesser extent with C&D IMO. . I guess my point is around this time he had that much great material he could have released an awesome double or triple album but had to spread it across Gold, Come, Exodus, C&D, The Undertaker, The Beautiful Experience, and some great maxi-singles

Hmmm... I'm not so sure. He was putting on a show of artistic integrity at the time, but I don't think he in any way was above playing some tracks off those albums to push a few more sales. Even if he thought it was "subpar."

That said, I feel like Prince developed a somewhat shoddy sense of "par" in those years that he adhered to off and on the for rest of his career, regardless of whatever artistic scruples he was trying to give the impression of maintaining. I mean, when given the chance to release something he supposedly deemed up to par, we wound up with Emancipation and Crystal Ball... Plenty of good stuff on those, and many would argue against me here, but I don't think I'm alone in saying a big chuck of both of those massive sets met a fairly objective definition for "subpar."

[Edited 8/28/17 15:21pm]

I agree he was 'putting on a show of integrity' but don't think he was 'playing some tracks off those albums to push a few more sales.'

.

His shows/aftershows back then consisted of mainly all new material so a mixture of Gold, Come, Exodus, C&D, The Undertaker and others. Even though he probably put the best tracks on Gold I'm sure in his mind it was all equally great. Some great stuff like Days Of Wild, Acknowledge Me etc never even made an album.

.

Agree with you on Emancipation; a lot of subpar material on this. Emancipation was the end of a great run IMO. The production, band and live shows changed for the worse

dodger said:

johnnyribcage said:

Hmmm... I'm not so sure. He was putting on a show of artistic integrity at the time, but I don't think he in any way was above playing some tracks off those albums to push a few more sales. Even if he thought it was "subpar."

That said, I feel like Prince developed a somewhat shoddy sense of "par" in those years that he adhered to off and on the for rest of his career, regardless of whatever artistic scruples he was trying to give the impression of maintaining. I mean, when given the chance to release something he supposedly deemed up to par, we wound up with Emancipation and Crystal Ball... Plenty of good stuff on those, and many would argue against me here, but I don't think I'm alone in saying a big chuck of both of those massive sets met a fairly objective definition for "subpar."

[Edited 8/28/17 15:21pm]

I agree he was 'putting on a show of integrity' but don't think he was 'playing some tracks off those albums to push a few more sales.'

.

His shows/aftershows back then consisted of mainly all new material so a mixture of Gold, Come, Exodus, C&D, The Undertaker and others. Even though he probably put the best tracks on Gold I'm sure in his mind it was all equally great. Some great stuff like Days Of Wild, Acknowledge Me etc never even made an album.

.

Agree with you on Emancipation; a lot of subpar material on this. Emancipation was the end of a great run IMO. The production, band and live shows changed for the worse

He was not even planning on releasing Come really at the time it sounded like. At the Glam Slam Miami, his birthday opening 1994, he said himself that, "none of these tracks will ever be released, Prince is signed to a contract, I'm not". Two months after, Come was released.

He probably just gave in and decided to make his stance known well with the fans that "Prince was dead" and used the album as means to promote that.

[Edited 8/29/17 8:26am]

Prince was supersensitive about the quality of the work that he released. As much as folks want to think certain songs are throwaway songs that he put out, thats just not how he rolled. He had a reputation to uphold, so to him at least, everything he released was very worthy.

OperatingThetan said:

I'd love to hear the Glam Slam Ulysses versions of some of the 'Come' album tracks as I've heard they're quite different.

I can never keep straight which one is which, but I love the "techno" version. It's basically a 4-on-the-floor type beat, almost like a club mix. It's shorter, and can be heard in The Beautiful Experience. The other version that I used on my COME remix album is very similar to the album version. But I hear bells in it (the same type of "jingle bell" sound you hear on "18 & Over"), and some of the production is slightly different. But the length and general feel of the song are more brothers than cousins.

SupaFunkyOrgangrinderSexy said:

TrivialPursuit said:

No one said they don't understand the message of the song. It's pretty clear. Adorecream's comment was based more on production and arrangement, not lyrical content.

they called it bizarre and an experiment. Musically it was very different than anything he did in the past but to call it bizarre? It was like a plea for help.

Sorry Supa, Bizarre is one of my favourite words and I use out of context all the time. As for Solo the voice is so high it cracks glass and I just think it is way overdone and overwrought.

TrivialPursuit said:

OperatingThetan said:

I'd love to hear the Glam Slam Ulysses versions of some of the 'Come' album tracks as I've heard they're quite different.

I can never keep straight which one is which, but I love the "techno" version. It's basically a 4-on-the-floor type beat, almost like a club mix. It's shorter, and can be heard in The Beautiful Experience. The other version that I used on my COME remix album is very similar to the album version. But I hear bells in it (the same type of "jingle bell" sound you hear on "18 & Over"), and some of the production is slightly different. But the length and general feel of the song are more brothers than cousins.

Yes, the 'techno' version is on The Beautiful Experience and there is a similar version on the 10,000 Wallpaper boot. It's longer and not as busy/techno and segues perfectly into Endorphinmachine.

.

The version with the 18 & Over jingles and similar length to album version is known as the Straight Remix. I think that leaked last year and was on recent BFTP 5.

leadline said:

Prince was supersensitive about the quality of the work that he released. As much as folks want to think certain songs are throwaway songs that he put out, thats just not how he rolled. He had a reputation to uphold, so to him at least, everything he released was very worthy.

.

I don't know if you're trolling here, but... I'm going to guess you are.

.

Very funny.

CAL3 said:

leadline said:

Prince was supersensitive about the quality of the work that he released. As much as folks want to think certain songs are throwaway songs that he put out, thats just not how he rolled. He had a reputation to uphold, so to him at least, everything he released was very worthy.

.

I don't know if you're trolling here, but... I'm going to guess you are.

.

Very funny.

I think you are the one trolling, in several threads now, what part of the above do you disagree with? It's ok if you disagree, we all can't be on the same page, nothing to get panties in a bunch over.

leadline said:

CAL3 said:

.

I don't know if you're trolling here, but... I'm going to guess you are.

.

Very funny.

I think you are the one trolling, in several threads now, what part of the above do you disagree with? It's ok if you disagree, we all can't be on the same page, nothing to get panties in a bunch over.

.

I don't troll. Period. End of story. No idea what I've said that would even give you that idea.

.

I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

.

"Prince was supersensitive about the quality of the work that he released"

.

This is purely speculative on your part. We don't know how he felt about the quality of any of his work. Not a matter of agreement or disagreement.

CAL3 said:

leadline said:

I think you are the one trolling, in several threads now, what part of the above do you disagree with? It's ok if you disagree, we all can't be on the same page, nothing to get panties in a bunch over.

.

I don't troll. Period. End of story. No idea what I've said that would even give you that idea.

.

I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

.

"Prince was supersensitive about the quality of the work that he released"

.

This is purely speculative on your part. We don't know how he felt about the quality of any of his work. Not a matter of agreement or disagreement.

Likewise on the trolling, it is comical to be accused of that after all my posts over the last 15 years here.

Well, he pulled the black album for reasons we all know. What I know of Prince, is that he doesn't release music to the public that he feels is sub par, the hyper control over all his stuff, his dislike of anything bootleg related hitting the public due to its unfinished nature, etc, are all a testament to that imo. Just how I read it from my own personal perceptions of Prince's actions over the years. Others certaintly may feel different.

Bottom line, just like Prince would not be seen unless he looked perfect, he does not release music unless he feels it is worthy of release. It doesn't mean we think its worthy, but he certaintly did in my opinion.

[Edited 8/30/17 8:26am]

leadline said:

CAL3 said:

.

I don't troll. Period. End of story. No idea what I've said that would even give you that idea.

.

I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

.

"Prince was supersensitive about the quality of the work that he released"

.

This is purely speculative on your part. We don't know how he felt about the quality of any of his work. Not a matter of agreement or disagreement.

Likewise on the trolling, it is comical to be accused of that after all my posts over the last 15 years here.

Well, he pulled the black album for reasons we all know. What I know of Prince, is that he doesn't release music to the public that he feels is sub par, the hyper control over all his stuff, his dislike of anything bootleg related hitting the public due to its unfinished natre, etc, are all a testament to that. In my opinion, just how I read it from my own personal perceptions of Prince's actions over the years.

Bottom line, just like Prince would not be seen unless he looked perfect, he does not release music unless he feels it is worthy of release. It doesn't mean we think its worthy, but he certaintly did in my opinion.

[Edited 8/30/17 8:22am]

.

I didn't accuse you of anything, I wasn't sure what context with which to read to your comment that started this exchange. So it was sincere, fine - my apologies for suggesting the possibility it might've been otherwise.

.

Great example with 'Black album' - he pulled it -- then chose to release it anyway to check another box off the contractual obligations. Seems to support the thought that he mightn't have been all that sensitive to what he foisted upon the public after all.

.

Speaking of obligations, it seems that 'C-Note' fell under that category. I don't know - maybe he thought it was a work of improvisational genius. But it feels more like one of numerous instances where he exhibited little care over what he issued for public consumption.

When Come came out I was 25. Listened to it non stop, absolutely loved it (still do) and at the time it felt pretty dark/obscure to me, compared to all his previous work.

'Come' and 'The Gold Experience' would have made a killer double album imo.

TrivialPursuit said:

CAL3 said:

.

RE: TGE as 'Purple Rain' of the '90s -- P certainly seemed to intend it to be, which is part of the album's weakness.

.

RE: the "message" of 'Come' - what would you say the message is?

.

If anything, I'd sum up the "message" sent by 'Come' as 'I don't want to be associated with Warner anymore' -- which had little to do with the record's actual content, except that he knowingly delivered subpar material. The fans paid the price.

I don't think Prince purposely set out to remake Purple Rain, but the similarities are there. I think he did set out to make a more commercially viable album.

Endorphinmachine - Let's Go Crazy (the rocker)

We March - Take Me With U (the duet)

Shhh, TMBGITW, I Hate U - The Beautiful Ones (the ballad)

Billy Jack Bitch - Computer Blue (the funk/rock workout)

319 - Darling Nikki (the sex)

Dolphin - When Doves Cry (the lament)

Now - Baby I'm A Star (the party song)

Gold - Purple Rain (the power anthem)

more or less.

The messages on COME were pretty obvious: Don't abuse children, or else they turn out like P. Franky if one wanted to delve deeper into the psychology of it, one could argue that the abused child in "Papa" grew up to feel worthless (Solo), became sensitive to violence (Race), and got himself into another overpowering/powerless relationship (Letitgo).

Interesting point of view.