My first topic was prompted by my first quick listening session of some of the recent leaks. Tracks like the Feel U Up and She's Always In My Hair demos and several others made me wonder. Susan Rogers and others have always relayed the narrative that Prince would record, mix and finish a song in one session, however long. But more and more examples pop up of well-known tracks where signifcant work was done over several sessions and several earlier mixdowns exists.

Do you think that this narrative might be less true than previously believed? Similar to how in the early years it turns out he wasn't truly the one-man band that he was portrayed as.

Just a thought.

droppingdishes said:

Oh please, it is well-known that Prince often continued working on older recordings. Look at Jill Jones' album, for instance. All D&P tracks underwent numerous overdubs etc.

Rogers has also told how songs were left unfinished if he didn't feel they were "all that".

There are always exceptions to rules.

Yeah, the story is that he would sometimes do that--and even more often that the core of the recording would be done in one burst. But he was always fiddling with stuff even then. Heck, we already had earlier versions of released tracks--what's up with pretending we needed these leaks to indicate that he worked on things over extended times?

BillieBalloon said:

Prince never said he finished a song in one session. Unless you have a quote? It doesnt matter what Susan Rogers and others said, lets hear it from the horses mouth for once instead of believing other peoples narratives all the time.

Why assume the horse is telling the truth? I mean, he is the one who put the large PRODUCED, ARRANGED, COMPOSED, AND PERFORMED with the tiny and incomplete asterisked additional credits. He actually would have more reason to have built the legend than others would have to do so, anyway.

And of course, at this point the reason to hear from others if that if he didn't address it before he died, then others are the only ones who can. And he didn't say a whole lot about anything, did he?

EddieC said:

BartVanHemelen said:

Oh please, it is well-known that Prince often continued working on older recordings. Look at Jill Jones' album, for instance. All D&P tracks underwent numerous overdubs etc.

Rogers has also told how songs were left unfinished if he didn't feel they were "all that".

There are always exceptions to rules.

I appreciate your reply but you mostly missed my point. I am keenly aware that Prince often "continued working on older recordings"; if I wasn't I wouldn't have started this topic. He would pull stuff out of the vault years later to work on it again. Entry-level knowledge.

I am also not referring to songs that were left unfinished; although what I am talking about here doesn't excluse those by default.

What stands out as different to me here is that it turns out there's not necessarily only "one" '81 Feel U Up in existence, for instance. The recently surfaced version sounds like #1 to me which makes the one previously in circulation (at least) #2. As a musicologist, the differences, or rather the journey if you will, interests me, and something like this brings questions to my mind such as what kind of timeframe we are looking at here between the different versions (same day? same week? same month?).

Hope that makes sense. It's nerdy, I know.

I also find it interesting there's a "Feel U Up" from before the Feel U Up/Irrestistible Bitch tandem. I had always imagined (and maybe for the wrong reasons) that he conceived those literally at the same time. Unless there's also an earlier Irresistible Bitch it seems that isn't the case.

EddieC said:

BillieBalloon said:

Prince never said he finished a song in one session. Unless you have a quote? It doesnt matter what Susan Rogers and others said, lets hear it from the horses mouth for once instead of believing other peoples narratives all the time.

It's not so much about me believing Susan Rogers (I have no reason not to for the most part but that's besides the point here) but more of me looking at that as a (pseudo?) scientific theory that can maybe be disproven based on new facts being uncovered.

BartVanHemelen said:

Oh please, it is well-known that Prince often continued working on older recordings. Look at Jill Jones' album, for instance. All D&P tracks underwent numerous overdubs etc.

Rogers has also told how songs were left unfinished if he didn't feel they were "all that".

There are always exceptions to rules.

If Prince taught us nothing else...he damn sure taught us that!

EddieC said:

Yeah, the story is that he would sometimes do that--and even more often that the core of the recording would be done in one burst. But he was always fiddling with stuff even then. Heck, we already had earlier versions of released tracks--what's up with pretending we needed these leaks to indicate that he worked on things over extended times?

Right. Yeah, I don't think we needed these leaks to indicate this. I just think they confirm something that I always thought would seem much more likely slash realistic.

Like, in my imagination I do see him walking into Sunset Sound one day in December of 1983 and walk out however long later with a completely finished, ready-to-go "She's Always In My Hair" (which may not be the best example because it's highly probably he revisited that one prepping it for release in '85).

It's fascinating to me which elements where there from the start, and which were added upon.

BillieBalloon said:

So you would believe Susan Rogers who incidentally, according to a post above, never said Prince finished songs in one sitting.

I don't think that post says that at all, if I read it right. And again, it's not so much the believing element here that matters rather the fact that from a musicological standpoint it's fascinating to get exposed to what is actual canon in the form of these new leaks versus the accounts of people that may or may not have been in the room.

Look at it as archealogy.

Oh I think it's a very big deal from my personal interest perspective, but I realize it may not be for everybody.

BillieBalloon said:

EddieC said:

Why assume the horse is telling the truth? I mean, he is the one who put the large PRODUCED, ARRANGED, COMPOSED, AND PERFORMED with the tiny and incomplete asterisked additional credits. He actually would have more reason to have built the legend than others would have to do so, anyway.

And of course, at this point the reason to hear from others if that if he didn't address it before he died, then others are the only ones who can. And he didn't say a whole lot about anything, did he?

Produced, arranged, composed and performed by Prince AND the Revolution. He credited the band on the back of the albums. So you would believe Susan Rogers who incidentally, according to a post above, never said Prince finished songs in one sitting. Prince never said he did either. Like i said please quote where he said it before you call him a liar.

The credit said that on the three Revolution albums--which then also included special credits for certain tracks as being just Prince (When Doves Cry, The Beautiful Ones, and Darling Nikki on Purple Rain, for example). But I don't know what your point is. The first four albums did not include that, just the smaller individual track credits (the accuracy of which has sometimes been questioned)--the larger more blanket statement of responsibility is what sunk into people's minds during the inital buildup of Prince's mystique. But you assume I have a problem with that--I don't. I do not believe a single one of Prince's tracks is not dominated by his creativite input, even when others can claim their own portion of credit. I just said that Prince is the one who befitted from the idea that he was a one-session genius. It doesn't buff Susan Rogers' or anyone else's reputation to have people believe that. Why would they lie about that as something that sometimes happened? And no one ever claimed it was the rule for Prince's sessions, just that it sometimes occurred.

My point is that Prince didn't talk much about his recording process at all--pretty much all we know is what people have said about it. And that's all we're ever going to have.

Oh, and quote where I said Prince was a liar. Or where I said Susan Rogers said anything. All horses (you, me, and the one you rode in on) tell at best incomplete truths, from their own limited perspectives--and I've never met one yet that didn't knowingly lie at times. I'm not sure what your point is at all. You seem to think I insulted Prince in some way. I don't think I did.

laytonian said:

This site!
.
How many internet posters does it take to argue about screwing in a lightbulb?
.
P finished many songs immediately before releasing them.
Others he tinkered with.
Big deal.

.

Thewooh said:

EddieC said:

Why assume the horse is telling the truth? I mean, he is the one who put the large PRODUCED, ARRANGED, COMPOSED, AND PERFORMED with the tiny and incomplete asterisked additional credits. He actually would have more reason to have built the legend than others would have to do so, anyway.

And of course, at this point the reason to hear from others if that if he didn't address it before he died, then others are the only ones who can. And he didn't say a whole lot about anything, did he?

I actually think that these recent leaks show that Prince did in fact produce, arrange, compose and perform. When the released versions features input from others it is usually pretty minor and already suggested in Prince's solo versions.

Of course he did--and I certainly didn't mean to suggest he didn't. I actually don't remember why I mentioned the P,A,C,P credit. Just that Prince would do things to emphasize certain aspects of his greatness--much as later he probably exaggerated band contributions when he wanted to portray himself as more of a "member of a band." He was always far and away the most significant part of anything that came out of the Prince-world.

My response was directed at a common viewpoint that seems misguided to me, in which the things others say about Prince are dismissed in favor of what Prince said--or, in this case, in favor of what Prince might have said possibly, but didn't, since he didn't address the issue at all. So, since he didn't, why talk about the horse's mouth--it's completely irrelevant here, because he didn't talk about his studio process (unlike many other artists, who do so ad nauseum--if I see another article about U2's studio adventures I hope someone hits me in the head before I start reading it). Even when he does talk, Prince is presenting, like everyone else when speaking about one's self, a mixture of his own honest experience, tempered by how much he wants to reveal, and a bit of a persona. Even the most honest person does some of this, editing and remaking--and that's what they do knowingly. Actual memory is good enough at blurring reality, even before you start thinking about what you want to say. And once you say something, it becomes a bit of memory, too--and if you say it often enough, it becomes the main thing you know.

For example, I bet Wally was initially striking to Rogers, but then the strangeness of what happened elevated it in her mind--he erased it, so he must have felt it was too something, and since she was impressed by its openness and vulnerability, her mind thinks he must have been responding to that and trying to deny what he'd revealed, and then she told the story once after thinking about the event occasionally for years (but not hearing the song again during that time, obviously) and then she's been asked about it again since then, each time elevating and modifying the significance of that one night and that one song, and since it's just the memory of it she's talking about, not something she hears snippets of every few months in an elevator, it's become more and more rarefied. And then there's our memories of what she said, and what we built it into (so many people seem to think she went around saying it was the best thing he ever did, which I don't remember ever actually seeing her say).

I just don't think it's that easy to get to the truth of things. I wish Prince had completed his memoir--but even if he had, his account would be one of many about his work--a special one, but also probably the most consciously crafted one, just because he didn't go around in general talking about his life and work. So when he did, it would have been, probably, a very consciously constructed thing. That's not saying dishonest--just recognizing that Prince was a private person. He's not going to be careless in his revelation of himself. So if it had happened, I would have read that book, it would have had a privileged position in my mind--but I would not have considered it the end of the story on anything. It would have been another aspect of his work.

[Edited 7/22/17 17:44pm]

droppingdishes said:

EddieC said:

Yeah, the story is that he would sometimes do that--and even more often that the core of the recording would be done in one burst. But he was always fiddling with stuff even then. Heck, we already had earlier versions of released tracks--what's up with pretending we needed these leaks to indicate that he worked on things over extended times?

Right. Yeah, I don't think we needed these leaks to indicate this. I just think they confirm something that I always thought would seem much more likely slash realistic.

Like, in my imagination I do see him walking into Sunset Sound one day in December of 1983 and walk out however long later with a completely finished, ready-to-go "She's Always In My Hair" (which may not be the best example because it's highly probably he revisited that one prepping it for release in '85).

It's fascinating to me which elements where there from the start, and which were added upon.

Yes, it is fascinating--but that's part of what's always been the draw to alternate versions. And I'm sure there were times when the one-night-start-to-finish version of things really happened--I just never thought of it as the most frequent in my head.

droppingdishes said:

Oh I think it's a very big deal from my personal interest perspective, but I realize it may not be for everybody.

I'm very interested as well--but until we're talking about specific tracks and many versions, it's tough to go very far with it.

BillieBalloon said:

"There's still no word on whether Paisley Park tours will include a glimpse of the vault, but Rogers, for one, hopes the music will be released, and that Prince's musical collaborators will finish the incomplete songs: "Music is an expression of life, and let's hear these expressions of Prince's life," she said. "I'd like to see the music put in the hands of the people who knew him best artistically, and that would be the musicians who worked with him through different eras."

Yep, she said that. I hope it doesn't happen, personally, but she said it. Not sure why you're quoting it, and it's been discussed elsewhere, but Susan Rogers does have opinions and views, just like everyone else.

EddieC said:

BillieBalloon said:

EddieC said:

Yep, she said that. I hope it doesn't happen, personally, but she said it. Not sure why you're quoting it, and it's been discussed elsewhere, but Susan Rogers does have opinions and views, just like everyone else.

I was addressing the op's question about Susan saying that Prince would finish a song in one session. Susan said there are unfinished songs in the vault. I dont agree with your statement that Prince perpetuated the myth that he finished songs in a single session, because ive never read that he said he did.

You've never read that I said he perpetuated that myth, but you seem to believe I did. Again, I didn't say Prince perpetuated that view--I said he would be the only one who benefitted from it, so other people would not have any reason to say he sometimes worked on a track straight through unless he sometimes did. No one has ever said he always did it. Prince didn't talk much at all about his studio practices. Which I've also said, already.

rdhull said:

droppingdishes said:

rdhull said:

Doesn't demystify anything for me because I'm sure he laid down the basics in a day and only added sweetening etc later

You'd think so but it's not as simple. The Feel U Up demo for instance contains little more than vocals and drums. The entire groove isn't there yet. I'm finding more and more examples of similar stuff. [Edited 7/22/17 19:02pm]

Dude, I'm not talking like EVERY song. Sure, certain songs took a bit I'm sure. Dys, weeks etc. Bu generally Im sure most of the basis skeletal (good enuff for release probably) were done in a day when he was inspired.

droppingdishes said:

I'm personally not so sure, but that's only my humble opinion.

none of us are personally sure lol. not even the theprincevault lol