I mean as an artist.

purplerabbithole said:

Oh come on, is that entirely true? I haven't read everything she has ever said about him, but after he died, she has been mostly kind. She told the "Uncle Princey" story which was a cool way to let us know that he was cool with her wife giving birth to a kid.

paulludvig said:

Not true. But I WOULD be surprised. She doesn't seem to have much positive to say about him.

Maybe she just figures that his talent goes without saying. She probably thinks of everyone else as the underdog in Prince world. But the problem with lving and working in Prince world is that the rest of the world is not alway privy to Prince's extraordinary talents. It may seem tht way to them (that he is canonized as Lisa put it) but the reality is that only hardcore music fans and the entertainment industry saw PRince that way before he died. To many regular Americans, he was just a has-been. He was super famous but also super underrated amongst casual music fans (especially rock fans and the very young).

paulludvig said:

I mean as an artist.

purplerabbithole said:

Oh come on, is that entirely true? I haven't read everything she has ever said about him, but after he died, she has been mostly kind. She told the "Uncle Princey" story which was a cool way to let us know that he was cool with her wife giving birth to a kid.

[Edited 6/21/17 12:57pm]

[Edited 6/21/17 12:59pm]

[Edited 6/21/17 13:00pm]

purplerabbithole said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I agree that many people reading about them will already be Prince fans.

But then again, there are all kinds of readers. Maybe, some dude watched Purple Rain on VH1 one night and wondered gee, what happened to those chicks in his band. The next day the article pops up and he reads it more curious about Wendy and Lisa than Prince. This dude could still think PRince was a has-been since 1984.

moonsister said:

purplerabbithole said:

Maybe she just figures that his talent goes without saying. She probably thinks of everyone else as the underdog in Prince world. But the problem with lving and working in Prince world is that the rest of the world is not alway privy to Prince's extraordinary talents. It may seem tht way to them (that he is canonized as Lisa put it) but the reality is that only hardcore music fans and the entertainment industry saw PRince that way before he died. To many regular Americans, he was just a has-been. He was super famous but also super underrated amongst casual music fans (especially rock fans and the very young).

[Edited 6/21/17 12:57pm]

[Edited 6/21/17 12:59pm]

[Edited 6/21/17 13:00pm]

Or maybe people not genuinely interested in Prince wouldn't read an article that featured her or Lisa. Maybe she assumed the readers know great he was.

Why is public perception not a real topic on here? They know what they are saying will be analysed and listened to ...It goes with the territory. NO one is putting them on trial. Its a discussion.

What would be acceptable conversation on this site becuse the conversations before he died were not being particularly thoughtful. I guess we should just go back to bitching about every little thing PRince did wrong when he was alive while never ever questioning this associates or their approaches to public perception..

What's your objection against my statement that Wendy assumed that everyone knows Prince is a genius. Are you saying she doesn't assume we know, are you saying she doesn't think he is a genius, or are you saying he is not a genius. I am confused.

JudasLChrist said:

This conversation is fucking weird. There's nothing wrong with what Wendy and Lisa have said. I suppose if you want to nit pick them to death and act like every time they speak it's a fucking trial for some unknown crime you could squeeze something out (Wendy is assuming everyone knows what a genius Prince is...(??!?!?!!?)), but there's nothing wrong here other than that the baseline level of what is considered conversation at our beloved Org has gone way, way down.

True dat. But the ones he was working intensely with were mostly younguns in the last two years.

rogifan said:

purplerabbithole said:Back on subject-- He probably strung them along a bit and eventually just chose to work with younger new musicians (3rdeyegirl) but still kept some communication open with Revolution. I imagine they were a bit frustrated with him over that. According to scottie Baldwin, PRince stated he didn't have "old friends". That might have been just his way of saying he didn't want to live in the past. But, Prince as we know, was a conflicted and complex man. Talking to the Revolution at all was him reconnecting with the past. ALso, what they didn't consider is that PRince fronting the Revolution would require him to basically be a singing, dancing bandleader again. Wendy would want to play the guitar parts (except for Prince's most known lead parts), Lisa would want the keys (except for PRince occassionally doing it). The band is too good and well known to use as just a backing band and they also older and more seasoned. PRince would be expected to perform in the same ways as he did in the Parade and Purple Rain tours. Physically, he was not up to it. (Watch his bandleading in the first two nights of the Montreux Jazz Festival 2013..he was charismatic as hell but he wasn't physically the Prince of the Revolution years). Lisa's argument might have been "So, what!! Its okay if you can't move like you used to" but still thats a lot of pressure to live up to. Prince with 3rdeyegirl could rely on his excellent guitar playing and keyboardist skills...he could be a predominant multi-instrumentalist. Prince on the Piano and Microphone tour could sit his tired ass down and play piano. He would't look like he was trying to capture old glory and failing at it. So the reluctance to reunite might not have just been emotional; it might have also been practical. (and it also could have been that he knew The Revolution consisted of strong opinionated individuals who he wasn't up to arguing with). But I do think he probably still thought of them as 'friends" in his own way. His calling Mark or mentioning Lisa and Wendy during the Piano and Microphone tour indicate a fondness for these people, even if his heart (and even body) wasn't into being their bandleader anymore. The thing about reuniting with old friends is that it can either glorify/rectify your past or taint it even further. What would happen if PRince reunited with the Revolution and they couldn't get along as a full unit again? Maybe he just wanted to treasure the good things about his past with them and not risk tensions and disagreements down the line--thus the reason, he honored the talents of W and L during his Piano and Microphone tour but kept his contact limited to silly phone pranks and hypothetical discussions. Lisa may have a point about Prince not wanting to be vulnerable by revisiting the past (but she is kind of ignoring the fact that if a reunion to many people would mean in some ways recreating the past..in physical ways that Prince wasn't capable of anymore ) His old friends were probably stressing his ass out. HIs young friends were probably like "whatever, just glad to be working and learning from Prince". His old friends might have been able to see his drug/health issues. HIs newer friends wouldn't see changes in behavior as easily.

Not everybody Prince was working with in the last few years of his life were new. Liv, Shelby and Ida weren't new, Kim Berry was still around as were the twins (one of them did a photo shoot with Prince where he asked her if she thought he looked too skinny) and Larry Graham. And I'm sure there's others I'm not thinking of. [Edited 6/21/17 13:45pm]

purplerabbithole said:

I see her point (especially about not asking for help in a youth-driven industry) but at the same the reunion they wanted with Prince was in fact in some ways revisiting his youth. To her, reunion might hve been more reflective (older folks revisiting their youth). To Prince, it might have been more pressure to live up to the past.

Also, the young folks Prince mentored and who worked under him would probably disagree about Prince never imparting wisdom as an elder statesman. But maybe the "We" she was talking about was the older audience in general. It sounds like they disagreed about how to age gracefully. Do you revisit the past but with an older man's perspective (which he did kind of do with the P and M tour--but I digress)? Or do you mentor the youth and keep progressing through them.

[Edited 6/21/17 12:46pm]

Speaking purely as a fan of Prince if I was asked what killed Prince and what I thought about it i'd come out with a botched version of what Lisa said. I strongly disagree with the folk on here who try to say he's superhuman or whatever because a) it makes all he did sound less impressive than it actually was and b) it's that kind of thinking that IMHO ultimately killed him. I don't blame anyone really but I feel he was under pressure from himself to live up to his own public persona and that saddens me.

I would have been in favour of a reunion but only if he was fully behind it and it seems that never quite happened. Maybe the Revolution are deluding themselves into thinking it was close to happening or maybe not, the fact is it didn't happen.


As for "Wendy has nothing nice to say about Prince as an artist" ( ) they're out there playing the songs. Nothing else needs to be said.

[Edited 6/21/17 14:58pm]

JudasLChrist said:

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said: I read it and I think she is speaking because she wants to blow herself up which is par for the course with her. I even explained my issue with her comments.

I cannot beleive you, Laura. You are like the second comment on here, just waiting on the wings to pounce whenever someone brings up a woman that Prince was close to. Can't you just lay off it for a bit and let people have a discussion? Your non-contributions make The Org suck, I'm sorry to say.

Maybe she can share with us every conversation and meeting she ever had with Prince and then describe how inaccurate the accounts of his ex wife, his friends and his (former) band mates are. Not to mention the medical examiner, the coroner, journalists, the people who researched books, etc.

Laura has a strange obsession with this thing, an odd jealous streak ("bobble head") and seems to think that whoever makes the most posts on this message board wins the "I am right" game.

I am anxiously awaiting her book, culled almost entirely from posts on this board talking down to other people.

rogifan said:

purplerabbithole said:Back on subject-- He probably strung them along a bit and eventually just chose to work with younger new musicians (3rdeyegirl) but still kept some communication open with Revolution. I imagine they were a bit frustrated with him over that. According to scottie Baldwin, PRince stated he didn't have "old friends". That might have been just his way of saying he didn't want to live in the past. But, Prince as we know, was a conflicted and complex man. Talking to the Revolution at all was him reconnecting with the past. ALso, what they didn't consider is that PRince fronting the Revolution would require him to basically be a singing, dancing bandleader again. Wendy would want to play the guitar parts (except for Prince's most known lead parts), Lisa would want the keys (except for PRince occassionally doing it). The band is too good and well known to use as just a backing band and they also older and more seasoned. PRince would be expected to perform in the same ways as he did in the Parade and Purple Rain tours. Physically, he was not up to it. (Watch his bandleading in the first two nights of the Montreux Jazz Festival 2013..he was charismatic as hell but he wasn't physically the Prince of the Revolution years). Lisa's argument might have been "So, what!! Its okay if you can't move like you used to" but still thats a lot of pressure to live up to. Prince with 3rdeyegirl could rely on his excellent guitar playing and keyboardist skills...he could be a predominant multi-instrumentalist. Prince on the Piano and Microphone tour could sit his tired ass down and play piano. He would't look like he was trying to capture old glory and failing at it. So the reluctance to reunite might not have just been emotional; it might have also been practical. (and it also could have been that he knew The Revolution consisted of strong opinionated individuals who he wasn't up to arguing with). But I do think he probably still thought of them as 'friends" in his own way. His calling Mark or mentioning Lisa and Wendy during the Piano and Microphone tour indicate a fondness for these people, even if his heart (and even body) wasn't into being their bandleader anymore. The thing about reuniting with old friends is that it can either glorify/rectify your past or taint it even further. What would happen if PRince reunited with the Revolution and they couldn't get along as a full unit again? Maybe he just wanted to treasure the good things about his past with them and not risk tensions and disagreements down the line--thus the reason, he honored the talents of W and L during his Piano and Microphone tour but kept his contact limited to silly phone pranks and hypothetical discussions. Lisa may have a point about Prince not wanting to be vulnerable by revisiting the past (but she is kind of ignoring the fact that if a reunion to many people would mean in some ways recreating the past..in physical ways that Prince wasn't capable of anymore ) His old friends were probably stressing his ass out. HIs young friends were probably like "whatever, just glad to be working and learning from Prince". His old friends might have been able to see his drug/health issues. HIs newer friends wouldn't see changes in behavior as easily.

Not everybody Prince was working with in the last few years of his life were new. Liv, Shelby and Ida weren't new, Kim Berry was still around as were the twins (one of them did a photo shoot with Prince where he asked her if she thought he looked too skinny) and Larry Graham. And I'm sure there's others I'm not thinking of. [Edited 6/21/17 13:45pm]

Kim Berry is a bit in a different league vs Shelby Liv Ida though right?

paulludvig you really need to stop. What you are doing overall is trollish behaviour. Extreme exaggerations or outright lies.

paulludvig said:

I mean as an artist.

purplerabbithole said:

Oh come on, is that entirely true? I haven't read everything she has ever said about him, but after he died, she has been mostly kind. She told the "Uncle Princey" story which was a cool way to let us know that he was cool with her wife giving birth to a kid.

rogifan said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

When you say 'involved' what do you mean?

I think a lot of people look at people with Prince in a 'business' fashion. If they don't see them onstage with Prince, then they must not be in Prince's life.

Yeah Prince and Wendy talked, on the phone and face to face, Prince visited their studio and talked with Wendy about her child, Wendy visited Prince at his home on the west coast.

How 'involved' do you need her to be?

I'm saying around enough to know about issues like hip problems or illness. I suppose it all depends on what he shared with her in private or maybe shared with others that found their way back to her.

There are people live in the same house with someone and don't know they are cheating on them, doing drugs, or never expecting them to committ suicide.

rogifan said:

Wait, people seriously believe Prince had Alzheimer's?

Shit, dude, people believe he was murdered, faked his own death and all manner of insane horseshit. Prince's unfortunate and tragic death broke their fucking brains and brought out the crazy around here for sure.

Having siad that, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a liver problem (which is one thing one of the loons mentioned a while back that I'll lend an ear to) since it seems to fit and is a known side effect of long term acetaminophen use.

But yeah, fuck all that shit Wendy says. Let's all listen to LAURA, who probably never even met Prince, and get some REAL insight.

paulludvig said:

JudasLChrist said:

True-dat!

Not true. But I WOULD be surprised. She doesn't seem to have much positive to say about him.

And U will believe a lie(already proven) to try to discredit Wendy

Prince talked about Time a lot and it is weird that him being so immersed in 'music' should know that time is such a moment that what happened in 1980 is really not that long ago.

When people in their 40s have that moment when it seemed like they just graduated from high school or college is real. Where did the time go...

And the day that we stop counting, we live as long as a tree

He fought againt his 'success' for so long I wonder how much of it was he able to really enjoy.

Prince wrote a song called Reflections, and when talking about the best music it is usually the stuff from the 60s 70s 80s when Prince get into it. Why would he not be able to see that same thing with his own music?

purplerabbithole said:

I see her point (especially about not asking for help in a youth-driven industry) but at the same the reunion they wanted with Prince was in fact in some ways revisiting his youth. To her, reunion might hve been more reflective (older folks revisiting their youth). To Prince, it might have been more pressure to live up to the past.

Also, the young folks Prince mentored and who worked under him would probably disagree about Prince never imparting wisdom as an elder statesman. But maybe the "We" she was talking about was the older audience in general. It sounds like they disagreed about how to age gracefully. Do you revisit the past but with an older man's perspective (which he did kind of do with the P and M tour--but I digress)? Or do you mentor the youth and keep progressing through them.

Doozer said:

“Prince died because of keeping up his façade,” she continues. “Nobody can live that way all the time. We can’t hold people to these extreme standards. Age happens and that doesn’t only mean the deterioration of your body, it also means the enhancement of your mind and your experience. You have so much more to give. Prince’s youth was spectacular, but imagine him as an old man and what he’d be able to impart. We lost that. Everybody who is ‘superhuman’ needs let people know, ‘Hey, I’m a person, I’m getting older, I get tired.' Say whatever they need to, because not doing so killed my friend.”


It amazes me that anyone would find that statement offensive or inappropriate. YES it's her opinion — she was probably asked "Why do you think Prince died the way he did?" She's not reciting scientific facts or diaries of conversations she had. She's saying why she thinks things went down the way they did. There is nothing there that attacks Prince's integrity or implies knowledge of drug use or any other behavior other than knowing the guy worked his ass off all day and night.

If she answered, "I don't know. You should ask the people he surrounded himself with in 2016," you'd be bashing her for accusing someone else of being responsible.

[Edited 6/21/17 12:46pm]

LOTS OF THEORY HERE>>>KEEP IN MIND

• KIM is certainly a longtimer but she has her own salon in LA and I am not sure P used her for every single thing. Prince and LG didn't seem quite as close(for whatever reason..maybe it was religious differences, professional requirements or LG not wanting to enable unsafe behavior.) . LIv wasn't used as much after 2014/2015, right? Elisa was a bit off and on, busy with a family, and she did express concern about his weight. Damaris was kept busy "paying it forward" and modeling and doing other things. Shelby was off and on as well. They all may have known more than they are saying. They all may know less than we assume. But they are not the old-timers from the 80's. I imagine the dynamics with those folks was a bit different. I think it is unfair to call them "yes men" or "yes women". Kim and Shelby sound like they were respectful but straightshooters. But they are not the types of people who would necessarily see P every day of his life.

• The musicians he seemed to spend a ton of time with in 2014-2015 recording, touring etc were very young and new to his circle (thirdeyegirl and their spouses) . They only saw the skinny and skinnier afro-wearing Prince (except for Ida and she hasn't said anything yay or nay about drugs) . Odd behavior that was unusual to Prince in the past would not be as apparent to them necessarily especially since they [except IDa] didn't know him in the past

• The enablers would be his assistants, his family (if he was close to them at all..namely his full sister) and people like Kirk Johnson and his girlfriends (if they were still around when the drug abuse started---Judith Hill for example) -- in other words anyone witnessing the self-destructive behavior firsthand and doing nothing to even attempt to stop it. I think Jill knew more than she is claiming but we don't know if she attempted to help him or not or if she entirely understood what was going on with him. If we believe Mayte, Prince could keep secrets even from her and it wasn't always easy to determine where loopy behavior was coming from. (I still can't help but think that P's biggest enablers would have to be Kirk and Meron.)

• However, Prince, being such a compartmentalized man, probably wasn't as enabled as people think. He just keep people busy and in their places and then withdrew from them when he wanted to do what he wanted to do. When it comes to drugs, the enablers would be the people who were constantly with him and helped him procure drugs. I dont think anyone else is to blame but Prince and those people. All anyone else could do was express concern when they saw alarming behavior and weight loss, and odds at least some of them did.

• All these later associates might have known something was wrong with P but like someone else said gradual change is harder to figure out if you see someone every day or even once a month, but you don't necessarily witness them doing the very things that are causing the change. A Revolution member might hve more of an objective viewpoint...and say or think things like "Hey, he was 20 lbs heavier when I hung out with him 2 years ago and he didn't act so chill --kind of like Jill Jones observations) We do know that Elisa Fiorillo and Damaris Lewis both told PRince they were worried about his weight and to take care of himself. I think as long as people expressed some concern about his weight or any alarming behavior, most of his later employees are not enablers (in the dangerous sense of the word.) This is all speculation on my part btw...but Kirk managed Paisley Park etc...if anyone was going to be able to help P keep up a facade it would have been him. Now, in Kirk's defense, maybe he thought he was helping P cope with crippling pain and was unsure how to do it. (he too was kept very busy as well so there is a slight chance, P knew some people outside the "Purple family" who procured him what he needed opiod-wise.

OldFriends4Sale said:

rogifan said:

Not everybody Prince was working with in the last few years of his life were new. Liv, Shelby and Ida weren't new, Kim Berry was still around as were the twins (one of them did a photo shoot with Prince where he asked her if she thought he looked too skinny) and Larry Graham. And I'm sure there's others I'm not thinking of. [Edited 6/21/17 13:45pm]

Kim Berry is a bit in a different league vs Shelby Liv Ida though right?

[Edited 6/21/17 17:50pm]

I think he was trying to remain relevant...which is understandable is it not? Do people ask Paul McCartney why he still recorded albums into his 70's or Bob Dylan. Prince never did say that his old music wasn't his best as far as I know. But he didn't want to be complacent and just rest on his laurels. LIfe is a journey and most artists are allowed to chronicle the journey through their work (painters, writers, actors, etc). But music is different. It is so youth orientated and about trends and movements. But in the long run, I believe the most important musicians will be the ones that show their own trajectory. Prince sometimes went on and on about older musicians he liked and older eras but he also went through a phase at the end of his life when he talked about Kendrick Lamar, a whole series of young female (British of mixed race) singers, even Willow Smith. There were times when he chased trends, there were times when he avoided them, there were times when he created them. There were times when he just wanted everyone to party to his music, there were times when he wanted to revisit his old sounds, there were times when he wanted to tweek his old sounds. There were times when he wanted to preach, there were times when he wanted to question. There were times when he wanted to reveal stuff about himself (cryptically but still) and there were times when he wanted to completely conceal. His musical trajectory was mercurial and even a bit confusing. But that confusion is partly what makes him fascinating. I think people wanted Prince to only do reflective stuff once he got older and in some ways I agree, but I also think why can't someone just party to Prince's music (because he is older, his music has to be only about getting older?) I think some people wanted him to just sound like 80's Prince (but of course, what the hell is 80's Prince--Purple Rain Prince or Parade Prince?} Its funny but in life adolescent angst occurs when you are 15-19 years old; in a rock star's career, its when you are middle-aged.

I know you are not a fan of AOA, but lyrically he is quite reflective. But I remember reading a person state that Breakdown was just another Adore..WTF? Those don't sound a bit alike. everything he ever did was compared to the 80's...even when the comparisons made no sense. I dont think he needed to admit that the 80's was typically thought to be his best stuff.. the Piano and Microphone tours were 60 percent eighties music. Did he really need to drive the point home with a reunion tour. The thing about W and L is that they can honor their 80's careers in a pretty comfortable fashion when they have got EMMY's and acclaim for tv soundtrack and scores. This is a legitimate career away from Prince.. If they were still relying on pop records they were doing together, would they have wanted to reunite the Revolution (prior to P's death that is)? probably not. They would want people to listen to their current albums and another reminder of supposed hey days would distract from that. Prince had to prove that he was relevant without the Revolution (peak or no peak, he wasn't just the leader of the revolution).

OldFriends4Sale said:

Prince talked about Time a lot and it is weird that him being so immersed in 'music' should know that time is such a moment that what happened in 1980 is really not that long ago.

When people in their 40s have that moment when it seemed like they just graduated from high school or college is real. Where did the time go...

And the day that we stop counting, we live as long as a tree

He fought againt his 'success' for so long I wonder how much of it was he able to really enjoy.

Prince wrote a song called Reflections, and when talking about the best music it is usually the stuff from the 60s 70s 80s when Prince get into it. Why would he not be able to see that same thing with his own music?

purplerabbithole said:

I see her point (especially about not asking for help in a youth-driven industry) but at the same the reunion they wanted with Prince was in fact in some ways revisiting his youth. To her, reunion might hve been more reflective (older folks revisiting their youth). To Prince, it might have been more pressure to live up to the past.

Also, the young folks Prince mentored and who worked under him would probably disagree about Prince never imparting wisdom as an elder statesman. But maybe the "We" she was talking about was the older audience in general. It sounds like they disagreed about how to age gracefully. Do you revisit the past but with an older man's perspective (which he did kind of do with the P and M tour--but I digress)? Or do you mentor the youth and keep progressing through them.

[Edited 6/21/17 12:46pm]

[Edited 6/21/17 18:18pm]

I bet Prince really used to fuck with people's heads. Going by what a lot of them say. Some days he'd be happy and elated, treating his band members like they were his close friends and collaboraters (don't deny that he himself put Wendy and Lisa in that position of collaboration at one point), and then other days the paranoia and 'normalness' returns and Prince is quiet, loner type, obviously not welcoming criticisms/questions. Classic abandonment issues, you let people 'in' and show them love but then the next second you start pushing people away before they can hurt/disappoint you. Im sure that this - along with a constantly changing mind and on and off periods of communication - fucked with many of their heads which is why they all talk so much about him yet no one REALLY knew Prince (which they all admit). The bad times were bad but the good times were amazing

I didn't say stop recording etc
I was talking about how hard at times he seemed to fight against his own success.

I remember during a Parade show when they did I Wanna Be Your Lover and Prince asking the audience if they remembered it or 'here is an oldie' and I'm thinking ummm didn't that song just come out 7 yrs ago?
Nothing in my post was telling Prince to not record anymore. I don't know where U got that from.
U might want to read my post again.

purplerabbithole said:

I think he was trying to remain relevant...which is understandable is it not? Do people ask Paul McCartney why he still recorded albums into his 70's or Bob Dylan. Prince never did say that his old music wasn't his best as far as I know. But he didn't want to be complacent and just rest on his laurels. LIfe is a journey and most artists are allowed to chronicle the journey through their work (painters, writers, actors, etc). But music is different. It is so youth orientated and about trends and movements. But in the long run, I believe the most important musicians will be the ones that show their own trajectory. Prince sometimes went on and on about older musicians he liked and older eras but he also went through a phase at the end of his life when he talked about Kendrick Lamar, a whole series of young female (British of mixed race) singers, even Willow Smith. There were times when he chased trends, there were times when he avoided them, there were times when he created them. There were times when he just wanted everyone to party to his music, there were times when he wanted to revisit his old sounds, there were times when he wanted to tweek his old sounds. There were times when he wanted to preach, there were times when he wanted to question. There were times when he wanted to reveal stuff about himself (cryptically but still) and there were times when he wanted to completely conceal. His musical trajectory was mercurial and even a bit confusing. But that confusion is partly what makes him fascinating. I think people wanted Prince to only do reflective stuff once he got older and in some ways I agree, but I also think why can't someone just party to Prince's music (because he is older, his music has to be only about getting older?) I think some people wanted him to just sound like 80's Prince (but of course, what the hell is 80's Prince--Purple Rain Prince or Parade Prince?} Its funny but in life adolescent angst occurs when you are 15-19 years old; in a rock star's career, its when you are middle-aged.

I know you are not a fan of AOA, but lyrically he is quite reflective. But I remember reading a person state that Breakdown was just another Adore..WTF? Those don't sound a bit alike. everything he ever did was compared to the 80's...even when the comparisons made no sense. I dont think he needed to admit that the 80's was typically thought to be his best stuff.. the Piano and Microphone tours were 60 percent eighties music. Did he really need to drive the point home with a reunion tour. The thing about W and L is that they can honor their 80's careers in a pretty comfortable fashion when they have got EMMY's and acclaim for tv soundtrack and scores. This is a legitimate career away from Prince.. If they were still relying on pop records they were doing together, would they have wanted to reunite the Revolution (prior to P's death that is)? probably not. They would want people to listen to their current albums and another reminder of supposed hey days would distract from that. Prince had to prove that he was relevant without the Revolution (peak or no peak, he wasn't just the leader of the revolution).

OldFriends4Sale said:

Prince talked about Time a lot and it is weird that him being so immersed in 'music' should know that time is such a moment that what happened in 1980 is really not that long ago.

When people in their 40s have that moment when it seemed like they just graduated from high school or college is real. Where did the time go...

And the day that we stop counting, we live as long as a tree

He fought againt his 'success' for so long I wonder how much of it was he able to really enjoy.

Prince wrote a song called Reflections, and when talking about the best music it is usually the stuff from the 60s 70s 80s when Prince get into it. Why would he not be able to see that same thing with his own music?

[Edited 6/21/17 18:18pm]

No, not any of that, what are the theories for?

Kim Berry is not an entertainer. She's a hairdresser.

That is what I mean by 'not in the same league' as Shelby the Twins Liv Ida etc

purplerabbithole said:

LOTS OF THEORY HERE>>>KEEP IN MIND

• KIM is certainly a longtimer but she has her own salon in LA and I am not sure P used her for every single thing. Prince and LG didn't seem quite as close(for whatever reason..maybe it was religious differences, professional requirements or LG not wanting to enable unsafe behavior.) . LIv wasn't used as much after 2014/2015, right? Elisa was a bit off and on, busy with a family, and she did express concern about his weight. Damaris was kept busy "paying it forward" and modeling and doing other things. Shelby was off and on as well. They all may have known more than they are saying. They all may know less than we assume. But they are not the old-timers from the 80's. I imagine the dynamics with those folks was a bit different. I think it is unfair to call them "yes men" or "yes women". Kim and Shelby sound like they were respectful but straightshooters. But they are not the types of people who would necessarily see P every day of his life.

• The musicians he seemed to spend a ton of time with in 2014-2015 recording, touring etc were very young and new to his circle (thirdeyegirl and their spouses) . They only saw the skinny and skinnier afro-wearing Prince (except for Ida and she hasn't said anything yay or nay about drugs) . Odd behavior that was unusual to Prince in the past would not be as apparent to them necessarily especially since they [except IDa] didn't know him in the past

• The enablers would be his assistants, his family (if he was close to them at all..namely his full sister) and people like Kirk Johnson and his girlfriends (if they were still around when the drug abuse started---Judith Hill for example) -- in other words anyone witnessing the self-destructive behavior firsthand and doing nothing to even attempt to stop it. I think Jill knew more than she is claiming but we don't know if she attempted to help him or not or if she entirely understood what was going on with him. If we believe Mayte, Prince could keep secrets even from her and it wasn't always easy to determine where loopy behavior was coming from. (I still can't help but think that P's biggest enablers would have to be Kirk and Meron.)

• However, Prince, being such a compartmentalized man, probably wasn't as enabled as people think. He just keep people busy and in their places and then withdrew from them when he wanted to do what he wanted to do. When it comes to drugs, the enablers would be the people who were constantly with him and helped him procure drugs. I dont think anyone else is to blame but Prince and those people. All anyone else could do was express concern when they saw alarming behavior and weight loss, and odds at least some of them did.

• All these later associates might have known something was wrong with P but like someone else said gradual change is harder to figure out if you see someone every day or even once a month, but you don't necessarily witness them doing the very things that are causing the change. A Revolution member might hve more of an objective viewpoint...and say or think things like "Hey, he was 20 lbs heavier when I hung out with him 2 years ago and he didn't act so chill --kind of like Jill Jones observations) We do know that Elisa Fiorillo and Damaris Lewis both told PRince they were worried about his weight and to take care of himself. I think as long as people expressed some concern about his weight or any alarming behavior, most of his later employees are not enablers (in the dangerous sense of the word.) This is all speculation on my part btw...but Kirk managed Paisley Park etc...if anyone was going to be able to help P keep up a facade it would have been him. Now, in Kirk's defense, maybe he thought he was helping P cope with crippling pain and was unsure how to do it. (he too was kept very busy as well so there is a slight chance, P knew some people outside the "Purple family" who procured him what he needed opiod-wise.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Kim Berry is a bit in a different league vs Shelby Liv Ida though right?

[Edited 6/21/17 17:50pm]

I never said that you said he shouldn't record anymore. I don't know what you think Prince should have done (other than keep the Revolution together) but what I am saying is that it is hard to proceed and move forward if one harps too much on the past.

OldFriends4Sale said:

I didn't say stop recording etc
I was talking about how hard at times he seemed to fight against his own success.

I remember during a Parade show when they did I Wanna Be Your Lover and Prince asking the audience if they remembered it or 'here is an oldie' and I'm thinking ummm didn't that song just come out 7 yrs ago?
Nothing in my post was telling Prince to not record anymore. I don't know where U got that from.
U might want to read my post again.

purplerabbithole said:

I think he was trying to remain relevant...which is understandable is it not? Do people ask Paul McCartney why he still recorded albums into his 70's or Bob Dylan. Prince never did say that his old music wasn't his best as far as I know. But he didn't want to be complacent and just rest on his laurels. LIfe is a journey and most artists are allowed to chronicle the journey through their work (painters, writers, actors, etc). But music is different. It is so youth orientated and about trends and movements. But in the long run, I believe the most important musicians will be the ones that show their own trajectory. Prince sometimes went on and on about older musicians he liked and older eras but he also went through a phase at the end of his life when he talked about Kendrick Lamar, a whole series of young female (British of mixed race) singers, even Willow Smith. There were times when he chased trends, there were times when he avoided them, there were times when he created them. There were times when he just wanted everyone to party to his music, there were times when he wanted to revisit his old sounds, there were times when he wanted to tweek his old sounds. There were times when he wanted to preach, there were times when he wanted to question. There were times when he wanted to reveal stuff about himself (cryptically but still) and there were times when he wanted to completely conceal. His musical trajectory was mercurial and even a bit confusing. But that confusion is partly what makes him fascinating. I think people wanted Prince to only do reflective stuff once he got older and in some ways I agree, but I also think why can't someone just party to Prince's music (because he is older, his music has to be only about getting older?) I think some people wanted him to just sound like 80's Prince (but of course, what the hell is 80's Prince--Purple Rain Prince or Parade Prince?} Its funny but in life adolescent angst occurs when you are 15-19 years old; in a rock star's career, its when you are middle-aged.

I know you are not a fan of AOA, but lyrically he is quite reflective. But I remember reading a person state that Breakdown was just another Adore..WTF? Those don't sound a bit alike. everything he ever did was compared to the 80's...even when the comparisons made no sense. I dont think he needed to admit that the 80's was typically thought to be his best stuff.. the Piano and Microphone tours were 60 percent eighties music. Did he really need to drive the point home with a reunion tour. The thing about W and L is that they can honor their 80's careers in a pretty comfortable fashion when they have got EMMY's and acclaim for tv soundtrack and scores. This is a legitimate career away from Prince.. If they were still relying on pop records they were doing together, would they have wanted to reunite the Revolution (prior to P's death that is)? probably not. They would want people to listen to their current albums and another reminder of supposed hey days would distract from that. Prince had to prove that he was relevant without the Revolution (peak or no peak, he wasn't just the leader of the revolution).

[Edited 6/21/17 18:18pm]

To defend myself on my theories--anything stated about Prince is speculation. My post was no different and i used what little I knew about Princ's associates to write that stuff. I remember Damaris Lewis had posts/pictures on her facebook I believe of herself paying it forward at schools (before Prince died). IF you keep people busy, they can't always see what you are up to.

Kim being in same league??? Most of the time when people talk about being in the same league, they aren't talking about baseball vs basketball. They are talking about quality. (like Adam Sandler is not in the same league as Marlon Brando). I thought you were saying that Kim was less of an authority on Prince than those other follks. So, I reacted with theories about how close or not close his later associates might have been to him. That's why the post got so long.

OldFriends4Sale said:

No, not any of that, what are the theories for?

Kim Berry is not an entertainer. She's a hairdresser.

That is what I mean by 'not in the same league' as Shelby the Twins Liv Ida etc

purplerabbithole said:

LOTS OF THEORY HERE>>>KEEP IN MIND

• KIM is certainly a longtimer but she has her own salon in LA and I am not sure P used her for every single thing. Prince and LG didn't seem quite as close(for whatever reason..maybe it was religious differences, professional requirements or LG not wanting to enable unsafe behavior.) . LIv wasn't used as much after 2014/2015, right? Elisa was a bit off and on, busy with a family, and she did express concern about his weight. Damaris was kept busy "paying it forward" and modeling and doing other things. Shelby was off and on as well. They all may have known more than they are saying. They all may know less than we assume. But they are not the old-timers from the 80's. I imagine the dynamics with those folks was a bit different. I think it is unfair to call them "yes men" or "yes women". Kim and Shelby sound like they were respectful but straightshooters. But they are not the types of people who would necessarily see P every day of his life.

• The musicians he seemed to spend a ton of time with in 2014-2015 recording, touring etc were very young and new to his circle (thirdeyegirl and their spouses) . They only saw the skinny and skinnier afro-wearing Prince (except for Ida and she hasn't said anything yay or nay about drugs) . Odd behavior that was unusual to Prince in the past would not be as apparent to them necessarily especially since they [except IDa] didn't know him in the past

• The enablers would be his assistants, his family (if he was close to them at all..namely his full sister) and people like Kirk Johnson and his girlfriends (if they were still around when the drug abuse started---Judith Hill for example) -- in other words anyone witnessing the self-destructive behavior firsthand and doing nothing to even attempt to stop it. I think Jill knew more than she is claiming but we don't know if she attempted to help him or not or if she entirely understood what was going on with him. If we believe Mayte, Prince could keep secrets even from her and it wasn't always easy to determine where loopy behavior was coming from. (I still can't help but think that P's biggest enablers would have to be Kirk and Meron.)

• However, Prince, being such a compartmentalized man, probably wasn't as enabled as people think. He just keep people busy and in their places and then withdrew from them when he wanted to do what he wanted to do. When it comes to drugs, the enablers would be the people who were constantly with him and helped him procure drugs. I dont think anyone else is to blame but Prince and those people. All anyone else could do was express concern when they saw alarming behavior and weight loss, and odds at least some of them did.

• All these later associates might have known something was wrong with P but like someone else said gradual change is harder to figure out if you see someone every day or even once a month, but you don't necessarily witness them doing the very things that are causing the change. A Revolution member might hve more of an objective viewpoint...and say or think things like "Hey, he was 20 lbs heavier when I hung out with him 2 years ago and he didn't act so chill --kind of like Jill Jones observations) We do know that Elisa Fiorillo and Damaris Lewis both told PRince they were worried about his weight and to take care of himself. I think as long as people expressed some concern about his weight or any alarming behavior, most of his later employees are not enablers (in the dangerous sense of the word.) This is all speculation on my part btw...but Kirk managed Paisley Park etc...if anyone was going to be able to help P keep up a facade it would have been him. Now, in Kirk's defense, maybe he thought he was helping P cope with crippling pain and was unsure how to do it. (he too was kept very busy as well so there is a slight chance, P knew some people outside the "Purple family" who procured him what he needed opiod-wise.

[Edited 6/21/17 17:50pm]

Yeah it seems like your are having a 'preconceived notion' to my post. My post again had nothing to do with no longer recording, changing, had nothing to do with the Revolution. I mean this is nicely as I can, you being a very 'new fan' I've lived this. It is not something you can just get in a thought, Prince seemed to fight against his own success. During the Gold experience in 1995/96 there was some attempt to replace Purple with Gold.
.
Prince would talk about not looking back when it came to his music, even though he did a lot, and it is the human experience. But at the same time when he talked about music in general he lauded the 'classics' and older music as the best. So I'm saying, I wonder why he could not understand that about his own music. This is not about the Revolution.

.

Again, maybe you don't know that after 1996 Prince rarely promoted his new music live in the concerts(post WB) he always played the hits and (other artist covers especially their classics).

I'm saying 'fighting' against it (as is with a lot of stuff) generally just gets you going in circles.
I'm saying 'generally' was he even able to enjoy his success.

purplerabbithole said:

I never said that you said he shouldn't record anymore. I don't know what you think Prince should have done (other than keep the Revolution together) but what I am saying is that it is hard to proceed and move forward if one harps too much on the past.

OldFriends4Sale said:

I didn't say stop recording etc
I was talking about how hard at times he seemed to fight against his own success.

I remember during a Parade show when they did I Wanna Be Your Lover and Prince asking the audience if they remembered it or 'here is an oldie' and I'm thinking ummm didn't that song just come out 7 yrs ago?
Nothing in my post was telling Prince to not record anymore. I don't know where U got that from.
U might want to read my post again.

lol, just ask me what I mean first, instead of writing a theory or about 4-5 lol Just ask what I mean first. I think you might be overthinking a lot of this. Demaris & Kim are not entertainers Ida Shelby Liv the Twinz are (not in the same league)

I get it, you are a teacher. Probably very analytical? I'm an artist.

purplerabbithole said:

To defend myself on my theories--anything stated about Prince is speculation. My post was no different and i used what little I knew about Princ's associates to write that stuff. I remember Damaris Lewis had posts/pictures on her facebook I believe of herself paying it forward at schools (before Prince died). IF you keep people busy, they can't always see what you are up to.

Kim being in same league??? Most of the time when people talk about being in the same league, they aren't talking about baseball vs basketball. They are talking about quality. (like Adam Sandler is not in the same league as Marlon Brando). I thought you were saying that Kim was less of an authority on Prince than those other follks. So, I reacted with theories about how close or not close his later associates might have been to him. That's why the post got so long.

OldFriends4Sale said:

No, not any of that, what are the theories for?

Kim Berry is not an entertainer. She's a hairdresser.

That is what I mean by 'not in the same league' as Shelby the Twins Liv Ida etc

Wendy is of course entitled to her opinion as someone who knew Prince quite well 30 years ago and met him sporadically in the years after. But let's not mistake her opinions for facts.

paulludvig said:

rogifan said:

paulludvig said:

Wendy is of course entitled to her opinion as someone who knew Prince quite well 30 years ago and met him sporadically in the years after. But let's not mistake her opinions for facts.

Exactly.

Paul never knew Prince. nor Wendy. And doesn't like her. So his opinions about Wendy are tainted stankily.

OldFriends4Sale said:

rogifan said:

paulludvig said: Exactly.

Paul never knew Prince. nor Wendy. And doesn't like her. So his opinions about Wendy are tainted stankily.

But do you disagree with my statement as such?