Labeling people with "ist" at the end of a word (racist, sexist, agist, misogynist) is lazy academic analysis that generally cherry picks and ignores nuances and contradictions. Prince in a way proves that most overly simplistic labels are not the reality of human experience. People have racism, sexism, agism, misogyny in them sometimes but unless they have an agenda to oppress or make a career out of it, they don't really deserve labels. they should not be above reproach but labels cut off discussion and oversimplify people. Labels are too cynical and leave no room for change or progress in individuals. People are works in progress.

I recently saw on twitter that a writer named Leah Stone (at the recent conference, I believe) was questioning whether Prince was a misogynist or a feminist. (She contended that he was too complicated to be either which I agree with) Some other people on twitter were predicting that he would be labeled a secret misogynist under all his supposed feminist support of women. Another blogger wrote a whole commentary stating that Prince was a sexist (and her sources were Rosie Gaines, Sinead O'Connor, Alex Hahn, and her proof was the molding of Mayte, Vanity, and Carmen).

These labels are all irritating (as irritating as trying to label Prince as gay--if he were gay, I would have hope he would have not felt the need to bed quite a few women to hide it.)

Here's what I think..

He shouldn't be labeled as a lifelong feminist because he wasn't always consistent about his support of females and went through a Rainbrow Children/1+1+1=3. He was more obsessed with females than he was a feminist (in his early days). That being said he was not against hiring women in non-sexy singer capacity (engineers etc). He should be labeled however as a man with feminist leanings at the end of his life. He might have been on his way to earning that label at the end of his life (which is why this feminist label is a more recent one coming from people like Janelle Monae). Although he still liked having pretty young women around, he also hired women in other capacities and they were not all great beauties or young.

He shouldn't be labeled as a sexist because he was controlling of everyone including himself and not just women, he sexualized women but he also sexualized himself, was a workaholic who had to incorporate relationships into his rock n roll lifestyle and navitate his lovelife with his own social neurosis/abandonment issues hanging over his head. All this might have created a sexist side in him but it was mostly due to the fact that music was his wife and his need of control extended to personal relationships as well,.

He should never be labeled as misogynist because there is absolutely no proof of women hating. He was too keenly interested in all things feminine. He enjoyed female company too much and not just as sex objects. Mind tricks were used on women but they were also used on men and were the result of Prince's own neurosis, abandonment issues and need of control. I think his mind tricks were a bit worse on men anyhow. With women, it was a way to keep them close. With men, it seemed to be a way to prove his strength and protect himself.

The other label "controlling" --well, that one has some merit. But I contend that people can only be controlled by Prince as long as they want to be. His control was his money, his mystery, his tendency to detach from naysayers and his charm offensive. It wasn't something a person couldn't resist if they really wanted to.

[Edited 5/26/17 18:54pm]

[Edited 5/26/17 18:56pm]

[Edited 5/26/17 19:06pm]

[Edited 5/26/17 19:10pm]

[Edited 5/26/17 19:19pm]

I want to add (sorry to talk to myself, LOL, but I have edited my post too much) that labeling Prince as a sexist who manipulated countless women is an insult to those women.

Also, like I said, Prince's relationships with women were varied, complicated and different according to whom the women were, the role they had in his life, the period in his life and his own issues at the time. He compartmentized his relationships with all people, both men and women.

purplerabbithole said:

Labeling people with "ist" at the end of a word (racist, sexist, agist, misogynist) is lazy academic analysis that generally cherry picks and ignores nuances and contradictions. Prince in a way proves that most overly simplistic labels are not the reality of human experience. People have racism, sexism, agism, misogyny in them sometimes but unless they have an agenda to oppress or make a career out of it, they don't really deserve labels. they should not be above reproach but labels cut off discussion and oversimplify people. Labels are too cynical and leave no room for change or progress in individuals. People are works in progress.

I recently saw on twitter that a writer named Leah Stone (at the recent conference, I believe) was questioning whether Prince was a misogynist or a feminist. (She contended that he was too complicated to be either which I agree with) Some other people on twitter were predicting that he would be labeled a secret misogynist under all his supposed feminist support of women. Another blogger wrote a whole commentary stating that Prince was a sexist (and her sources were Rosie Gaines, Sinead O'Connor, Alex Hahn, and her proof was the molding of Mayte, Vanity, and Carmen).

These labels are all irritating (as irritating as trying to label Prince as gay--if he were gay, I would have hope he would have not felt the need to bed quite a few women to hide it.)

Here's what I think..

He shouldn't be labeled as a lifelong feminist because he wasn't always consistent about his support of females and went through a Rainbrow Children/1+1+1=3. He was more obsessed with females than he was a feminist (in his early days). That being said he was not against hiring women in non-sexy singer capacity (engineers etc). He should be labeled however as a man with feminist leanings at the end of his life. He might have been on his way to earning that label at the end of his life (which is why this feminist label is a more recent one coming from people like Janelle Monae). Although he still liked having pretty young women around, he also hired women in other capacities and they were not all great beauties or young.

He shouldn't be labeled as a sexist because he was controlling of everyone including himself and not just women, he sexualized women but he also sexualized himself, was a workaholic who had to incorporate relationships into his rock n roll lifestyle and navitate his lovelife with his own social neurosis/abandonment issues hanging over his head. All this might have created a sexist side in him but it was mostly due to the fact that music was his wife and his need of control extended to personal relationships as well,.

He should never be labeled as misogynist because there is absolutely no proof of women hating. He was too keenly interested in all things feminine. He enjoyed female company too much and not just as sex objects. Mind tricks were used on women but they were also used on men and were the result of Prince's own neurosis, abandonment issues and need of control. I think his mind tricks were a bit worse on men anyhow. With women, it was a way to keep them close. With men, it seemed to be a way to prove his strength and protect himself.

The other label "controlling" --well, that one has some merit. But I contend that people can only be controlled by Prince as long as they want to be. His control was his money, his mystery, his tendency to detach from naysayers and his charm offensive. It wasn't something a person couldn't resist if they really wanted to.

[Edited 5/26/17 18:54pm]

[Edited 5/26/17 18:56pm]

[Edited 5/26/17 19:06pm]

[Edited 5/26/17 19:10pm]

[Edited 5/26/17 19:33pm]

Well, he did make most of them tarts. Even the one(s) with musical talent.

What I am saying about the world (you will notice if you re-read the first couple of sentences) if that labels are counter-productive when it comes to personal and societal progress. A label stops discourse by alienating the very people you are trying to change. I can't recall every word Martin Luther King ever said, but I don't recall him using the word "racist' at the drop of a hat because his goal was to change people not label them, to find the better angels of their nature. It doesn't mean he didn't call out racist behavior however.

as for Prince fandom, that is kind of why we are here. In some ways, Prince reminds me of the lovably flawed main character in Felini's 8 1/2 (this man saw women as muses, sex symbols, and confidants) . It must be noted that the reason why he is lovable (fellini's character, that is, not the unlikable version in the musical NIne) is because he is able to laugh at his own flaws and downfalls and the women are willing to engage with him but also bust his chops a bit. Prince could have used a bit more chop busing a bit more often, but I reckon in female friendships Prince got the honesty more than in romantic relationships (Kim Berry/Wendy/Lisa/Rosie/Chaka opposed to Carmen electra/Mayte).

jaawwnn said:

It only ignores nuances if YOU ignore nuances. Its perfectly possible to say Prince did sexist things and Prince did feminist things. Thing is, that's boring, if you want to make an argument then make an argument about something more than judging prince to be king or pariah. Use your Prince examples to say something about the world, not your fandom, you know? (I think I'm largely agreeing with you purplerabbithole) [Edited 5/26/17 20:06pm]

purplerabbithole said:

as for Prince fandom, that is kind of why we are here. In some ways, Prince reminds me of the lovably flawed main character in Felini's 8 1/2 (this man saw women as muses, sex symbols, and confidants) . It must be noted that the reason why he is lovable (fellini's character, that is, not the unlikable version in the musical NIne) is because he is able to laugh at his own flaws and downfalls and the women are willing to engage with him but also bust his chops a bit. Prince could have used a bit more chop busing a bit more often, but I reckon in female friendships Prince got the honesty more than in romantic relationships (Kim Berry/Wendy/Lisa/Rosie/Chaka opposed to Carmen electra/Mayte).

j

Yeah but Fellinis Guido is a fictional character vs Prince, the real person (although a cartoon himself in some manner). Yes, I know Guido is based on Fellini, like most characters in his films.

Props to you for bringin Fellini in this.

.

[Edited 5/26/17 20:37pm]

He was also a tart, it needs to be noted. You are leaving out a lot of women.

Vanity/Vanity 6/Apolonia 6 were sexualized while so was Prince. Carmen was sexualized, so was Prince. Mayte was sexualized so was Prince. Sheila E was sexualized (more sexy than sexualized) but so was Prince. Cat was sexualized but so was Prince.

The third eye girl musicans--not sexualized and neither was Prince. Ando Allo--not sexualized and neither was Prince. Judith Hill not sexualized and neither was Prince. Mavis Staples not sexualized at all.

Sexy but not overally sexualized--Tamar, candy Dulfer, Elisa Fiorillo, Martika, and Prince

I am leaving some people out as well.

rdhull said:

Well, he did make most of them tarts. Even the one(s) with musical talent.

Prince did play off an image (cartoonish and comical at times) but like you said, Guido is based off Fellini. so therefore the comparison is apt.

Also, I want to add that sexualized is not always bad. I am less offended by Nasty Girl the song because Vanity is singing about a certain female sexual liberation. I wish however she had written the song herself--it would have been more liberating if it was her own words.

But didn't sheena Easton deliberately work with Prince (after already being an established success) because she wanted sexuality in her music?

Music and female sexualization is complicated thing. Madonna saw it as a form of liberation.

rdhull said:

purplerabbithole said:

as for Prince fandom, that is kind of why we are here. In some ways, Prince reminds me of the lovably flawed main character in Felini's 8 1/2 (this man saw women as muses, sex symbols, and confidants) . It must be noted that the reason why he is lovable (fellini's character, that is, not the unlikable version in the musical NIne) is because he is able to laugh at his own flaws and downfalls and the women are willing to engage with him but also bust his chops a bit. Prince could have used a bit more chop busing a bit more often, but I reckon in female friendships Prince got the honesty more than in romantic relationships (Kim Berry/Wendy/Lisa/Rosie/Chaka opposed to Carmen electra/Mayte).

Yeah but Fellinis Guido is a fictional character vs Prince, the real person (although a cartoon himself in some manner). Yes, I know Guido is based on Fellini, like most characters in his films.

Props to you for bringin Fellini in this.

.

[Edited 5/26/17 20:37pm]

So you just made my point..though you added because Prince was a tart with them. I was just about to argue you but damn! Ive always thought this my damn self so it makes sense.

Here he is with his naked ass on a pillow...focusing in concert on his shapely ass...acting like lady Godiva and Gypsy Rose Lee...vain as the 30 year old socialite in with Hollywood...hella makep, and all..he was a tart or played one..maybe a fopp, but aslo a tart...

purplerabbithole said:

He was also a tart, it needs to be noted. You are leaving out a lot of women.

Vanity/Vanity 6/Apolonia 6 were sexualized while so was Prince. Carmen was sexualized, so was Prince. Mayte was sexualized so was Prince. Sheila E was sexualized (more sexy than sexualized) but so was Prince. Cat was sexualized but so was Prince.

The third eye girl musicans--not sexualized and neither was Prince. Ando Allo--not sexualized and neither was Prince. Judith Hill not sexualized and neither was Prince. Mavis Staples not sexualized at all.

Sexy but not overally sexualized--Tamar, candy Dulfer, Elisa Fiorillo, Martika, and Prince

I am leaving some people out as well.

rdhull said:

Well, he did make most of them tarts. Even the one(s) with musical talent.

[Edited 5/26/17 20:57pm]

purplerabbithole said:

There's a lot to answer in response but I cant right now. So Ill just say this for now: you wanna get married?

purplerabbithole said:

Prince did play off an image (cartoonish and comical at times) but like you said, Guido is based off Fellini. so therefore the comparison is apt.

Also, I want to add that sexualized is not always bad. I am less offended by Nasty Girl the song because Vanity is singing about a certain female sexual liberation. I wish however she had written the song herself--it would have been more liberating if it was her own words.

But didn't sheena Easton deliberately work with Prince (after already being an established success) because she wanted sexuality in her music?

Music and female sexualization is complicated thing. Madonna saw it as a form of liberation.

rdhull said:

Yeah but Fellinis Guido is a fictional character vs Prince, the real person (although a cartoon himself in some manner). Yes, I know Guido is based on Fellini, like most characters in his films.

Props to you for bringin Fellini in this.

.

[Edited 5/26/17 20:37pm]

I agreed with Leah in my initial post..that he was too complicated to be labeled as either. I don't think she was really using the 'ist' towards him but it started me thinking and I eventually read the commentary that labeled him as a sexist by the other writer. The only issue I had with Leah's argument was the word "misogynist" being used rather than "sexist". Misogynist was too strong of a word to even be part of the question where Prince was concerned.. I think discussing his sexism and his feminism would have been a better way of doing it..but the other is more of a click bait and I get that.

The other blogger who simplified Prince as a sexist is who Peeved me and I did read that entire argument.

jaawwnn said:

purplerabbithole said:

What I am saying about the world (you will notice if you re-read the first couple of sentences) if that labels are counter-productive when it comes to personal and societal progress. A label stops discourse by alienating the very people you are trying to change. I can't recall every word Martin Luther King ever said, but I don't recall him using the word "racist' at the drop of a hat because his goal was to change people not label them, to find the better angels of their nature. It doesn't mean he didn't call out racist behavior however.

Yes well people also love to categorize so I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you're reducing some pretty nuan ed points to ists and isms and that's a mistake on your part? Did you actually read or hear Leah Stone's argument before starting a thread to moan about it?

Interesting thread.