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This article about Prince in transgender history is one of the most excellent pieces to come out since he passed.

transgender??

gay icon??

No doubt in my mind - Prince was 100% hetereosexual, he was just very flamboyant on stage playing with his "feminine side" versus his "masculine side", just playful like David Bowie and others..

I have no further comments atm..

You just posted this last night. It's already been posted here, and is an active thread with great discussion about him being a gay icon. http://prince.org/msg/7/442299

This is definitely a different thread. Thanks for the link--I probably wouldn't have found the article on my own, so I'm glad you pointed the way. Interesting read, and I remain amazed by the responses along the lines of "gay? Trans?--Prince wasn't that!" I wonder if people just don't read beyond the first sentence of anything. I mean, Lisa goes out of her way to explicitly state "he was very much a hetersexual guy" and "even though he was not gay"--and Ellison does the same in the article. I'll probably look at more in the "If We Knew Transgender History" project. Thanks.

TrivialPursuit said:

thedance said:

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

Think my thoughts are the asme as yours no doubt he was 100% heterosexual ???not a gay icon. IMO a gay icon would have to be gay....

Well, as a gay man, I'll tell you that you're entirely wrong. Cher isn't gay. Bette Midler isn't gay. Fucking Barbra Streisand (soft S) isn't gay. Janet Jackson, Madonna, Donna Summer, Michael Jackson. These are people seen as gay icons. (Judy, Liza, anyone?) Hell Stone Phillips was on people gaydar for years (daddy woof) and he's not gay.

Someone's sexuality has zero to do with them being an icon to any particular segment of society.

Prince was a gay icon, and it's pretty obvious as to why. It could be argued that those who might have an issue with him being called that could be harboring bigger issues themselves. I hope not, though. I assume nothing about those detractors.

But any artist who wore the clothes he wore, and still got all the pussy, and men still wanted to be him or be as cool as him, and did it all with a no holes barred attitude - that's a gay icon. From the drag queens at Stonewall to Prince in 2015, gay icons come in a wide range of genders, races, and religions, etc.

TrivialPursuit said:

Well, as a gay man, I'll tell you that you're entirely wrong. Cher isn't gay. Bette Midler isn't gay. Fucking Barbra Streisand (soft S) isn't gay. Janet Jackson, Madonna, Donna Summer, Michael Jackson. These are people seen as gay icons. (Judy, Liza, anyone?) Hell Stone Phillips was on people gaydar for years (daddy woof) and he's not gay.

Someone's sexuality has zero to do with them being an icon to any particular segment of society.

Prince was a gay icon, and it's pretty obvious as to why. It could be argued that those who might have an issue with him being called that could be harboring bigger issues themselves. I hope not, though. I assume nothing about those detractors.

But any artist who wore the clothes he wore, and still got all the pussy, and men still wanted to be him or be as cool as him, and did it all with a no holes barred attitude - that's a gay icon. From the drag queens at Stonewall to Prince in 2015, gay icons come in a wide range of genders, races, and religions, etc.

.

- Yes, it´s true. A person can be heterossexual and be a gay icon, but somehow I never felt Prince being a gay icon like those ones you mentioned. Specially after the 90s (I wasnt a Prince fan in the 80s, so I dont know. Probably he was a lot more).

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

precioux said:

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

Think my thoughts are the asme as yours no doubt he was 100% heterosexual ???not a gay icon. IMO a gay icon would have to be gay....

Ummm...No!

Marilyn Monroe was a huge icon for gay MEN, although she was a (mostly) straight FEMALE, and the most beautiful, I might add-as well as highly admired and adored by none other than Prince himself

GustavoRibas said:

- Yes, it´s true. A person can be heterossexual and be a gay icon, but somehow I never felt Prince being a gay icon like those ones you mentioned. Specially after the 90s (I wasnt a Prince fan in the 80s, so I dont know. Probably he was a lot more).

Maybe not as much after the 90s--but was he an icon at all (as an active force, anyway) after the 90s? Iconic Prince is eighties Prince, whether you're talking music, fashion, black, gay, anything--he stayed great, but the iconic, world-shaping, heavy-influencing--that's the eighties guy. I know that many people on the org found him after that period. But if you want to know what he meant to the world at large (not to die-hard fans)--you pretty much have to be thinking of the eighties.

Prince definately was huge on this expression most of his life, even if he didn't mean for it to be

There is this photo from the Controversy years, where a black man in a trench in the audience is reaching out to Prince (I picture that man gay) do straight men usually reach out to famous men like that?

see the guy sitting right in front ^

But looking how he 'transformed' Mazarati and the songs on there about Suzy who is most likely a transgendered person

the Camille character who Prince confirmed was a hermaphrodite

Lyrics from Lovesexy

If I Come Back As a Woman

I Want A Body Like Yours

A Body Like Yours

People say during his Lovesexy period he was very ambigious, but I believe it was the Gold Experience

OldFriends4Sale said:

Prince definately was huge on this expression most of his life, even if he didn't mean for it to be

There is this photo from the Controversy years, where a black man in a trench in the audience is reaching out to Prince (I picture that man gay) do straight men usually reach out to famous men like that?

see the guy sitting right in front ^

But looking how he 'transformed' Mazarati and the songs on there about Suzy who is most likely a transgendered person

the Camille character who Prince confirmed was a hermaphrodite

Lyrics from Lovesexy

If I Come Back As a Woman

I Want A Body Like Yours

A Body Like Yours

People say during his Lovesexy period he was very ambigious, but I believe it was the Gold Experience

What does any of this have to do with the price of peas? He never presented himself as transgener or gay. He was trying to sell records and even told people this.

Who cares about some dude reaching out to Prince at a concert? Does not mean Prince was gay

The guy sitting in the front looks like he is thinking "WTF is he wearing"

The striptease was for the ladies

He made those guys dress like that so they would mimic the hair metal bands.

He wanted to come back as a women to feel on his own boobs Prince being lewd and conceited at the same time.

Keep trying.

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Prince definately was huge on this expression most of his life, even if he didn't mean for it to be

There is this photo from the Controversy years, where a black man in a trench in the audience is reaching out to Prince (I picture that man gay) do straight men usually reach out to famous men like that?

see the guy sitting right in front ^

But looking how he 'transformed' Mazarati and the songs on there about Suzy who is most likely a transgendered person

the Camille character who Prince confirmed was a hermaphrodite

Lyrics from Lovesexy

If I Come Back As a Woman

I Want A Body Like Yours

A Body Like Yours

People say during his Lovesexy period he was very ambigious, but I believe it was the Gold Experience

What does any of this have to do with the price of peas? He never presented himself as transgener or gay. He was trying to sell records and even told people this.

Who cares about some dude reaching out to Prince at a concert? Does not mean Prince was gay

The guy sitting in the front looks like he is thinking "WTF is he wearing"

The striptease was for the ladies

He made those guys dress like that so they would mimic the hair metal bands.

He wanted to come back as a women to feel on his own boobs Prince being lewd and conceited at the same time.

Keep trying.

the Article is 'Prince's Legacy In the Context of Transgender History'

I think you are just flaming here laurarichardson. I never said he was gay nor ever implied it

the Controversy image was about the guy not Prince, in connection to the topic. stay focused.

the striptease was about Prince expressing the song

the guys album contained a song or 2 about an obvious transgendered person named Suzy and Hair Metal Bands are clearly in drag ... Twisted Sister

the piece in Lovesexy is still about some fluid intersexed idea

...don't skip over his Camille persona and on the Oprah show in the 90s he talked about having a 2nd person in him who was female

I school, I don't try

The fact that Prince has always dealt with these subjects in his music is a fact, better to know than if Eric Benet & Mani cheated while she was still married to Prince.

EddieC said:

GustavoRibas said:

- Yes, it´s true. A person can be heterossexual and be a gay icon, but somehow I never felt Prince being a gay icon like those ones you mentioned. Specially after the 90s (I wasnt a Prince fan in the 80s, so I dont know. Probably he was a lot more).

Maybe not as much after the 90s--but was he an icon at all (as an active force, anyway) after the 90s? Iconic Prince is eighties Prince, whether you're talking music, fashion, black, gay, anything--he stayed great, but the iconic, world-shaping, heavy-influencing--that's the eighties guy. I know that many people on the org found him after that period. But if you want to know what he meant to the world at large (not to die-hard fans)--you pretty much have to be thinking of the eighties.

.

- Agree. I dont know how LGBT community felt about him in the 80s because I wasnt there. But I never saw him being praised as a ´gay icon´ at all. I am heterossexual, but my gay friends love Madonna, Cher, Lady Gaga and George Michael.

OldFriends4Sale said:

laurarichardson said:

What does any of this have to do with the price of peas? He never presented himself as transgener or gay. He was trying to sell records and even told people this.

Who cares about some dude reaching out to Prince at a concert? Does not mean Prince was gay

The guy sitting in the front looks like he is thinking "WTF is he wearing"

The striptease was for the ladies

He made those guys dress like that so they would mimic the hair metal bands.

He wanted to come back as a women to feel on his own boobs Prince being lewd and conceited at the same time.

Keep trying.

the Article is 'Prince's Legacy In the Context of Transgender History'

I think you are just flaming here laurarichardson. I never said he was gay nor ever implied it

the Controversy image was about the guy not Prince, in connection to the topic. stay focused.

the striptease was about Prince expressing the song

the guys album contained a song or 2 about an obvious transgendered person named Suzy and Hair Metal Bands are clearly in drag ... Twisted Sister

the piece in Lovesexy is still about some fluid intersexed idea

...don't skip over his Camille persona and on the Oprah show in the 90s he talked about having a 2nd person in him who was female

I school, I don't try

The fact that Prince has always dealt with these subjects in his music is a fact, better to know than if Eric Benet & Mani cheated while she was still married to Prince.

( Nothing becasue I know Prince was trying to shock people,piss people off and sell records. )

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

the Article is 'Prince's Legacy In the Context of Transgender History'

I think you are just flaming here laurarichardson. I never said he was gay nor ever implied it

the Controversy image was about the guy not Prince, in connection to the topic. stay focused.

the striptease was about Prince expressing the song

the guys album contained a song or 2 about an obvious transgendered person named Suzy and Hair Metal Bands are clearly in drag ... Twisted Sister

the piece in Lovesexy is still about some fluid intersexed idea

...don't skip over his Camille persona and on the Oprah show in the 90s he talked about having a 2nd person in him who was female

I school, I don't try

The fact that Prince has always dealt with these subjects in his music is a fact, better to know than if Eric Benet & Mani cheated while she was still married to Prince.

the Article is 'Prince's Legacy In the Context of Transgender History'

I think you are just flaming here laurarichardson. I never said he was gay nor ever implied it

the Controversy image was about the guy not Prince, in connection to the topic. stay focused. ( Who gives a fuck about the guy in the audience. Unless you can touch a picture and know what was going on with him you sound off your wheel.

the striptease was about Prince expressing the song

( Yes, I am taking my clothes while performing a song about screwing a women)

the guys album contained a song or 2 about an obvious transgendered person named Suzy and Hair Metal Bands are clearly in drag ... Twisted Sister

What does that have to do with Prince having a legacy in the context of Transgender history it is one song out of 1800 for a hair metal band and you do realize most of the metal guys were not gay. It was something to do to shock people which is exactly what Prince was doing. That is what Rock n Roll use to do.

the piece in Lovesexy is still about some fluid intersexed idea

( no it is about Prince being a freak the whole album is about the big pussy in the sky )

...don't skip over his Camille persona and on the Oprah show in the 90s he talked about having a 2nd person in him who was female

I school, I don't try

-

(No you do not school because what he was talking about was a split personality disorder which people can have from extreme trauma and the gender of said personality means nothing as split personality is to hide from the trauma. He could have also been bull shitting or just had a bad therapist as there is controversy that split personalities even exist. At any rate he was not identifying himself as a women. )

The fact that Prince has always dealt with these subjects in his music is a fact, better to know than if Eric Benet & Mani cheated while she was still married to Prince.

( no they are not. The only people who care about this stuff is people with an agenda)

What's the matter with your life

( Nothing becasue I know Prince was trying to shock people,piss people off and sell records. )

U R making yourself look not so good here, you r fighting for the sake of a fight

Who gives a FUCK? I do, I have a fucking right to talk about the discussion. I never addressed you so if it bothers you then move on. The fucking thread is not about Prince's sexuality. Either consede to that your back down.

In my original post(not directed at you) I asked, being a fucking dude, do straight guys usually reach out like that to other male artist... And no doubt there were queer men in his audience and scene. So Prince being some kind of icon for a group of people is not about the 'object of inspiration' as much as it is about the people being inspired.

.

U need to get educated about stuff before you reject it. Throught Prince's catalogue he expressed it via the music and the look.

.

It is not about Prince being a freak. If that is all you walk away with, then you miss the New Power of Lovesexy and like Prince said, that need says less about him and more about the person(s)

.

No sweety in a 1998 interview when asked about Camille Prince and the interviewer acknowledge Camille was in connection to a hermaphrodite

.

strawmen again. I never said he identified as a woman, the Oprah 1996 Interview was NOT about a split personality. "The other person in me. We haven't identified what sex that other person is yet." You are reaching again.
.
.

so people who don't know their Prince lyrics like you, approaching a debate with me, doesn't have an agenda, when constantly talking about Mani & Eric. Who gives a fuck about that but someone chicks living vicariously through that drama, that most people don't know. How in Heaven Earth or Hell is reading Prince's lyrics right there in EVERYONES face blind or not, having an agenda. Maybe this is some kind homophobia showing up in you, because from the fucking start of you replying to me is throwing in some bs insinuating I'm/Others are saying Prince is gay. Which I nor anyone here has. Look in the mirror at your agenda.

.

But don't argue with me if you haven't passed Purple 107

.

You are so off base, you replied to my signature from Pop Life:what's the matter with your life

GustavoRibas said:

EddieC said:

Maybe not as much after the 90s--but was he an icon at all (as an active force, anyway) after the 90s? Iconic Prince is eighties Prince, whether you're talking music, fashion, black, gay, anything--he stayed great, but the iconic, world-shaping, heavy-influencing--that's the eighties guy. I know that many people on the org found him after that period. But if you want to know what he meant to the world at large (not to die-hard fans)--you pretty much have to be thinking of the eighties.

.

- Agree. I dont know how LGBT community felt about him in the 80s because I wasnt there. But I never saw him being praised as a ´gay icon´ at all. I am heterossexual, but my gay friends love Madonna, Cher, Lady Gaga and George Michael.

I think females are more obvious gay icons. I don't even think George Michael was up there outside of being a 'gay 101' spotlight.

.

Right now, Prince is still huge in the media outlets, so everyone is making him an icon or something from this to politics to masculinity to womens rights etc

.

.

They knew it is huge to discuss Prince right now, so you have to get those articles out there, whether they are on point or a huge stretch.

I saw a huge increase in them leading up to April 21 2017

OldFriends4Sale said:

Prince definately was huge on this expression most of his life, even if he didn't mean for it to be

There is this photo from the Controversy years, where a black man in a trench in the audience is reaching out to Prince (I picture that man gay) do straight men usually reach out to famous men like that?

see the guy sitting right in front ^

But looking how he 'transformed' Mazarati and the songs on there about Suzy who is most likely a transgendered person

the Camille character who Prince confirmed was a hermaphrodite

Lyrics from Lovesexy

If I Come Back As a Woman

I Want A Body Like Yours

A Body Like Yours

People say during his Lovesexy period he was very ambigious, but I believe it was the Gold Experience

He also sang

If I came back as a dolphin

Does that make him trans-species?

The entire discussion is moronic.

Genesia said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Prince definately was huge on this expression most of his life, even if he didn't mean for it to be

There is this photo from the Controversy years, where a black man in a trench in the audience is reaching out to Prince (I picture that man gay) do straight men usually reach out to famous men like that?

see the guy sitting right in front ^

But looking how he 'transformed' Mazarati and the songs on there about Suzy who is most likely a transgendered person

the Camille character who Prince confirmed was a hermaphrodite

Lyrics from Lovesexy

If I Come Back As a Woman

I Want A Body Like Yours

A Body Like Yours

People say during his Lovesexy period he was very ambigious, but I believe it was the Gold Experience

He also sang

If I came back as a dolphin

Does that make him trans-species?

The entire discussion is moronic.

It means he believes in Reincarnation

.

very different from intersexed/transgendered topics

.

That sounds like the people who say 'If you allow same sex marriage, sooner or later if a man wants to marry a horse..."

OldFriends4Sale said:

Genesia said:

He also sang

If I came back as a dolphin

Does that make him trans-species?

The entire discussion is moronic.

It means he believes in Reincarnation

.

very different from intersexed/transgendered topics

.

That sounds like the people who say 'If you allow same sex marriage, sooner or later if a man wants to marry a horse..."

It isn't the same thing, at all.

And it does not mean Prince believed in reincarnation (though he may have), because he didn't actually say that. All it means is that, in the context of a single song, he was exercising his very vivid imagination.

You are pointing to the lyrics and being very literal in one case (when it suits your narrative), but not in the other. Pick a lane.

[Edited 5/24/17 11:51am]

Genesia said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

It means he believes in Reincarnation

.

very different from intersexed/transgendered topics

.

That sounds like the people who say 'If you allow same sex marriage, sooner or later if a man wants to marry a horse..."

It isn't the same thing, at all.

And it does not mean Prince believed in reincarnation (though he may have), because he didn't actually say that. All it means is that, in the context of a single song, he was exercising his very vivid imagination.

Yes it is very similar to the arguement

.

but more likely it is something he is looking into believes in etc

.

the gender stuff is very ingrained in his music. always has been, it is in our faces in the styles.
Do I think Prince 'championed crossdressing or transgendered issues at anytime. No, not really. But he did champion people breaking societal rules and challenging these things.

Our Clothes
our Hair

We Don't Care

It's all about

being there

When asked about dealing with death Princes: Don't Think abou them and then they will come back... I don't know if that is some connection to reincarnation or just princology

Genesia said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

It means he believes in Reincarnation

.

very different from intersexed/transgendered topics

.

That sounds like the people who say 'If you allow same sex marriage, sooner or later if a man wants to marry a horse..."

It isn't the same thing, at all.

And it does not mean Prince believed in reincarnation (though he may have), because he didn't actually say that. All it means is that, in the context of a single song, he was exercising his very vivid imagination.

You are pointing to the lyrics and being very literal in one case (when it suits your narrative), but not in the other. Pick a lane.

[Edited 5/24/17 11:51am]

What lyrics am I not being literal in?