bonatoc said:

MiceElfAgin said:

.
You seem to forget that there can be many different kinds of issues with sound quality and some of us here are able to differentiate between the side-effects of a poor mix or overload during tracking or a damaged tape or poor dynamics compression or poor quality file encoding etc, etc.

The sound issues with 'Our Destiny' (and TCI version of 'The Dance', for example) are typical of issues that can arise when working with analog tapes. Whether it's the original master tape that's damaged, or perhaps the tape recorder (usually a Studer A80) used for digitising the tape wasn't cleaned properly (unlikely), or whether a low quality copy was used as a source – I don't know. These can be debated. The fact that the problem (a fluctuating loss of high end) is related to analog tape, cannot.

The issues with 1999 and SOTT are totally unrelated to the above. The issues with some of the mixes are yet another bunch of different, distinguishable problems.

Could it be the byproduct of a phaser / flanger artefact leaking?
Given the speed at which he was working/recording/mixing, it is possible they didn't have the time to care about "details" (Susan Rogers said so on several occasions) and make über-pristine mixes (I would hate it, it's the home studio approach that give this organic/analog feel to most of Prince's eighties work).

As for 1999 / SOTT, I don't know what you guys are talking about. Unless you refer to the CD masterings, which are notoriously atrocious, I don't know what's wrong with their sound quality.

.
We just got confirmation that WB didn't have access to the original masters (of the outtakes) so basically it confirms my suspicion that a low quality copy was used from WB's own archives. And in the case of 'Our Destiny' I can even imagine them sourcing it from a cassette.

Regarding 1999 and SOTT: yes, I was referring to the CD masters.

MiceElfAgin said:

We just got confirmation that WB didn't have access to the original masters (of the outtakes)

.

IOW: the vault still has not been properly catalogued or else we'd have info saying so.

So stuff that the fuss is all about is ignored.

Proper ('fresh') vault releases are thus years away.

MiceElfAgin said:

bon

.
We just got confirmation that WB didn't have access to the original masters (of the outtakes) so basically it confirms my suspicion that a low quality copy was used from WB's own archives.

Then should they have waitied for the PR remaster even if it meant being years away, after the chaos is cleared, for release? Maybe just release the remaster cd with no extras (save for a dvd maybe) like Prince delivered when alive?

rdhull said:

MiceElfAgin said:

.
We just got confirmation that WB didn't have access to the original masters (of the outtakes) so basically it confirms my suspicion that a low quality copy was used from WB's own archives.

Then should they have waitied for the PR remaster even if it meant being years away, after the chaos is cleared, for release? Maybe just release the remaster cd with no extras (save for a dvd maybe) like Prince delivered when alive?

.

(It wouldn't have been years, only maybe half a year or 1 year the most, but) YES, absolutely.
.
There is no excuse for using low quality copies as sources (even if it's much better than what we had before), when the real stuff exists. We've already waited 33 years for this release – we could've waited another year, if that's what it takes to get the real deal.
.
Once this thing is out, how long do you think we will have to wait for the estate to revisit the Purple Rain project and come back with the real deal, to release all these same outtakes again, but all sourced from the genuine master tapes? Maybe 5 or 10 years? Surely not anytime sooner.
.
I'm sure there are plenty of unreleased, mastered albums in the vault, ready to go – even if it's "only" a live album from the last tour or anything like that. They could've put something out while the rest of the vault is being catalogued and preserved. So yes, I would've been happier with getting something else now and a truly great PR Deluxe box next year, instead of getting a half-assed PR Deluxe now and having to wait for the real deal another 5-10 years.

[Edited 6/4/17 8:21am]

MiceElfAgin said:

rdhull said:

Then should they have waitied for the PR remaster even if it meant being years away, after the chaos is cleared, for release? Maybe just release the remaster cd with no extras (save for a dvd maybe) like Prince delivered when alive?

.

(It wouldn't have been years, only maybe half a year or 1 year the most, but) YES, absolutely.
.
There is no excuse for using low quality copies as sources (even if it's much better than what we had before), when the real stuff exists. We've already waited 33 years for this release – we could've waited another year, if that's what it takes to get the real deal.
.
Once this thing is out, how long do you think we will have to wait for the estate to revisit the Purple Rain project and come back with the real deal, to release all these same outtakes again, but all sourced from the genuine master tapes? Maybe 5 or 10 years? Surely not anytime sooner.
.
I'm sure there are plenty of unreleased, mastered albums in the vault, ready to go – even if it's "only" a live album from the last tour or anything like that. They could've put something out while the rest of the vault is being catalogued and preserved. So yes, I would've been happier with getting something else now and a truly great PR Deluxe box next year, instead of getting a half-assed PR Deluxe now and having to wait for the real deal another 5-10 years.

[Edited 6/4/17 8:21am]

IMO, they should have did how they did Madonna and VH remasters initially runs. Remaster all the ctalogue nd only the original albums and no added material. Then later years do these more elaborate sets with added material, outtakes, videos, etc.

But maybe we will get surprised with some of the material

paulludvig said:

I didn't mind WB ising copies if the sound is as good as it is on Electric Intercourse.

.
Yeah, but 'Our Destiny' is not as good. Very far from it, actually. And 'Moonbeam Levels' wasn't that good either.

I still enjoy the songs very much, of course, but that's a different question.

paulludvig said:

I didn't mind WB ising copies if the sound is as good as it is on Electric Intercourse.

Neither do I, actually.

paulludvig said:

Some interesting stuff on this fb thread. Check the comments from Mathieu Bitton

https://www.facebook.com/groups/theriseofprince/permalink/476418226035975/

paulludvig said:

I don't mind WB using copies if the sound is as good as it is on Electric Intercourse. [Edited 6/4/17 9:07am]

Electric Intercourse sounds like it's first generation.

Somewht different to Our Destiny and Moonbeam Levels.

jjam said:

rdhull said:

IMO, they should have did how they did Madonna and VH remasters initially runs. Remaster all the ctalogue nd only the original albums and no added material. Then later years do these more elaborate sets with added material, outtakes, videos, etc.

But maybe we will get surprised with some of the material

Nope, can't agree with that. Madonna and VH (well, definitely Madonna, less so VH) are still going concerns, with the likelihood of new material being produced in the future. So, you can release a no-frills remaster, with other new material potentially being released in the meantime, and then revisit with deluxe-type sets later. The artist can produce more and keep the fanbase interested. But Prince is coming off the death year--tons of people bought Purple Rain last year, and they aren't going to buy a remaster now (they haven't been complaining the last 30 years about how the CDs sound). And there is no new material coming to hold interest over... and if there's an obvious future deluxe coming, than you risk even us waiting this release out (and with many of us dying off or drifting away during the interim). There's also the possibility that something might go screwy on the rights issue, and Warner might just feel they need to act before they lose the chance to do anything at all.

Again, if they knew what the future held as far as rights and estate cooperation, and if they knew that the audience wouldn't just go away--then, yeah, take the longer view, fix the whole this-thing- sounds-terrible issue, then work on getting the other stuff done well. But that's not where Warner is, and there's no real negotiating partner even yet for them to get things settled. They've sat on this deal for years already, their partner died after they did the thing they probably didn't particularly care about doing (the AOA/Plectrum releases), and they still haven't been able to capitalize on what they signed on for (the old catalog and very likely vault material from that period).

so what we have is WB trying desperately to cash in on this BEFORE the estate goes to the vault for proper releases????

luvsexy4all said:

so what we have is WB trying desperately to cash in on this BEFORE the estate goes to the vault for proper releases????

WB has a distribution deal through 2021. It's likely that had Prince and WB come to an agreement about PR deluxe three years ago (content & licensing fees), we could have had other deluxe editions packaged and distributed by now. Not to sound morbid but Prince dying and the estate desparately needing to generate revenue was the green light WB needed to jump start work on a deal they signed three years ago (starting with P's most famous album).

So yeah, I guess you could call it a cash grab. However, "this is a business". Either let WB do what it was contracted to do or pay them the millions needed to get out of the deal.

[Edited 6/4/17 14:14pm]

[Edited 6/4/17 14:17pm]

blacknote said:

luvsexy4all said:

so what we have is WB trying desperately to cash in on this BEFORE the estate goes to the vault for proper releases????

WB has a distribution deal through 2021. It's likely that had Prince and WB come to an agreement about PR deluxe three years ago (content & licensing fees), we could have had other deluxe editions packaged and distributed by now. Not to sound morbid but Prince dying and the estate desparately needing to generate revenue was the green light WB needed to jump start work on a deal they signed three years ago (starting with P's most famous album).

So yeah, I guess you could call it a cash grab. However, "this is a business". Either let WB do what it was contracted to do or pay them the millions needed to get out of the deal.

[Edited 6/4/17 14:14pm]

[Edited 6/4/17 14:17pm]

why cant they "work" with estate to release proper vault recordings?

luvsexy4all said:

blacknote said:

WB has a distribution deal through 2021. It's likely that had Prince and WB come to an agreement about PR deluxe three years ago (content & licensing fees), we could have had other deluxe editions packaged and distributed by now. Not to sound morbid but Prince dying and the estate desparately needing to generate revenue was the green light WB needed to jump start work on a deal they signed three years ago (starting with P's most famous album).

So yeah, I guess you could call it a cash grab. However, "this is a business". Either let WB do what it was contracted to do or pay them the millions needed to get out of the deal.

[Edited 6/4/17 14:14pm]

[Edited 6/4/17 14:17pm]

why cant they "work" with estate to release proper vault recordings?

Because the estate can't work with itself. And there's no guarantee that once the estate is unified (if ever) that it will choose to be cooperative with Warner on anything much better. So yes, WB is doing what they can do, now, rather than waiting to do something with an estate that already had a deal with another company which was promoted as involving the rights to the Warner period material within just a few years. Why on earth would they wait? The estate is not the sort of potential partner you want to plan on being there for you.

It's really a shame now that we have 24 bits / 192 kHz technology, and given the massive jump in quality Prince brought to pop music (arrangements, production, originality, style), we're still left with this careless attitude towards his legacy.

I had some hopes when Rhino seemed to take over the catalog, but then not much happened, or at least it wasn't publicized properly, if at all.

I'm sure ol'geezers like myself have very found sonic memories of the original vinyls or K7 releases (in a time where a walkman weighed a ton compared to an iPod, a transfer of your vinyl to a CrO2 could even embellish things further: chips and algorythm can't mimick true electrical resistance).
I get a hard on just by looking at this babe:




I strongly disagree with Susan Rogers when she says that not that much attention was brought to the sound. Not only was all of this recorded at incredible speed, but the sound was extraordinary. The mp3 format made the Vault material circulate, but in the process we lost the amazing organic feel we got from AAA (analogic, analogic & analogic). When I listen to the eighties material in digital, it's like looking at faded polaroids. The colors are wrong, and there's no dimension.

I hope the rumours about the PR Paisley Park remastering being brickwalled are wrong: that would add insult to injury.

I'm waiting for an hero engineer that will restore Prince's sonic landscapes to their rightful glory. What strange, hypocrit times. All the industry and all the music lovers mourn Prince and say how great he was, yet his music is passed on with at least a third of the original vision missing.
It's just the deaf leading the deaf.

Why is everyone shocked??? I realized this when "Moonbeam Levels" had the same sound as the bootlegs. I really think that people are in for a RUDE awakening when it comes to the quality of what Prince had stored, or even the stuff he was giving WB access too. I think the quality you have on Bootlegs is as good as it is gonna get folks for everything at this point. Whatever was going on in 2014 when Prince decided that there would be a "Purple Rain" remaster something somewhere got lost in translation. Just recently The Family and Madhouse popped out on iTunes and other outlets, which is weird why not just go all in with all the "Paisley stuff"? Or were those releases not valid and pulled from vinyl? I think at this point there is a time table to get something "Prince" out there if you want to keep it alive, I mean The Revolution are not going to tour every year to keep the memories alive, they probably wont do it again after this year. The loyal fan base that PRINCE had is getting older as are the folks he worked with, there is a huge timetable here to get things out but this may be as good as it will get and because no one really has access to his vault legally, it may just all go untouched.

lastdecember said:

no one really has access to his vault legally, it may just all go untouched.

.

WTF!?

.

Shouldn't 'the estate' care like a good father over his children for these tapes aka recordings?

They are the thing they may want to monetize later on. So they batter care for them now.

So we see loads of lawyers brining in invoices.

But no invoice for a lowly tech conserving the audio!?

Are people out of their minds?!

blacknote said:

luvsexy4all said:

so what we have is WB trying desperately to cash in on this BEFORE the estate goes to the vault for proper releases????

WB has a distribution deal through 2021. It's likely that had Prince and WB come to an agreement about PR deluxe three years ago (content & licensing fees), we could have had other deluxe editions packaged and distributed by now. Not to sound morbid but Prince dying and the estate desparately needing to generate revenue was the green light WB needed to jump start work on a deal they signed three years ago (starting with P's most famous album).

So yeah, I guess you could call it a cash grab. However, "this is a business". Either let WB do what it was contracted to do or pay them the millions needed to get out of the deal.

[Edited 6/4/17 14:14pm]

[Edited 6/4/17 14:17pm]

Exactly, even Prince would have had to bow to their demands for product because he did sign a deal with them. The PR deluxe was going to come out with the actual masters or with stuff WB had in their vaults but it was going to come out on to the market.

WB was not going to wait unti 2021 to put out product. I also believe that they do have the license to the soundtracks forever.

udo said:

lastdecember said:

no one really has access to his vault legally, it may just all go untouched.

.

WTF!?

.

Shouldn't 'the estate' care like a good father over his children for these tapes aka recordings?

They are the thing they may want to monetize later on. So they batter care for them now.

So we see loads of lawyers brining in invoices.

But no invoice for a lowly tech conserving the audio!?

Are people out of their minds?!

That is not going to happen. Recently their was an admendment to the WB agreement. I suspect that whatever issues Prince had with WB about the PR reissue are have been addressed by the estate managers and that things will move forward. WB knows that the material in the vault could be deteroiating and people are getting old. They need to move quickly.

laurarichardson said:

udo said:

.

WTF!?

.

Shouldn't 'the estate' care like a good father over his children for these tapes aka recordings?

They are the thing they may want to monetize later on. So they batter care for them now.

So we see loads of lawyers brining in invoices.

But no invoice for a lowly tech conserving the audio!?

Are people out of their minds?!

That is not going to happen. Recently their was an admendment to the WB agreement. I suspect that whatever issues Prince had with WB about the PR reissue are have been addressed by the estate managers and that things will move forward. WB knows that the material in the vault could be deteroiating and people are getting old. They need to move quickly.

A lot of the material may in fact be in poor shape that will not be a surprise, i really dont think people should be shocked to hear that. I mean a lot of what he stored and that people want is from 30 years ago at least, the question is what did he do to care for this stuff? That is the major question, since PRINCE did not have a producer and he most likely used various engineers and even himself we have to think that bootlegs we heard might be what we are going to get. WB can only do so much, the PR reissue in fact with that one 11 track disc really has a lot that was not even from PR and that era anyway there has been a lot of talk that WB tossed on what they had access to and decided what was best, the third disc has some new stuff but those are master recordings most likely because alot were on 12" vinyl so do not be surprised to hear a vinyl rip to digital here. I think people need to realize that soundwise and quality wise you may not get something you want, you are not going to get brand new sound and production unless like some artists that have worked with him said. "They should get artists that played on them to actually care for the transfers" but that is not going to happen.

lastdecember said:

laurarichardson said:

That is not going to happen. Recently their was an admendment to the WB agreement. I suspect that whatever issues Prince had with WB about the PR reissue are have been addressed by the estate managers and that things will move forward. WB knows that the material in the vault could be deteroiating and people are getting old. They need to move quickly.

A lot of the material may in fact be in poor shape that will not be a surprise, i really dont think people should be shocked to hear that. I mean a lot of what he stored and that people want is from 30 years ago at least, the question is what did he do to care for this stuff? That is the major question, since PRINCE did not have a producer and he most likely used various engineers and even himself we have to think that bootlegs we heard might be what we are going to get. WB can only do so much, the PR reissue in fact with that one 11 track disc really has a lot that was not even from PR and that era anyway there has been a lot of talk that WB tossed on what they had access to and decided what was best, the third disc has some new stuff but those are master recordings most likely because alot were on 12" vinyl so do not be surprised to hear a vinyl rip to digital here. I think people need to realize that soundwise and quality wise you may not get something you want, you are not going to get brand new sound and production unless like some artists that have worked with him said. "They should get artists that played on them to actually care for the transfers" but that is not going to happen.

Exactly, we get what we can get at this point.

JUST TO ASK OME MORE .

.

1) Would prince really go remaster purple rain and BRICKWALL? That jusg seems odd. If Prince remasters something I cannot see him in 2015 when we all know better to hit SELECT ALL and NORMALIZE. That seems insane. And is this a remaster or a remix.and remaster (as these days always seem to be even better, especially when done by the aetist and /or a n engineer. Of all albums that proves this I refer you to KISS Destroyer amd WAY even moreso the YES remix/remasters/even surround sound FU to the world that came out in the last few Because it a full on HOLY SHIT THIS IS AWESOME especially Close To The Even The Beatles gave us a preview by REMIXING and REMASTERING '1' and its my understanding we will get one more round of the albums again in that fasbion... Did Prince really just dick around with a little volume and compression because i just expect more from him.....

.

2) The 180g vinyl. Does ANYONE know if this remaster was remastered for VINYL or is it a digital file stuck on an analog item (like transferring an mp3 to a cassette which.. why?) Anyone know?

.

3) This Picture Disc.. same day . But is it even the remaster?!.

.And

4) OFF TOPIC BUT IM DESPERATE AND NO ONE IN OTHER SECTIONS OF THE FORUMS: The REVOLUTION Tour... GA on the floor. There are VIP tix (also the same GA) but other than maybe early entry.. To GA ("ahem excuse me, no my fiance is right up front i just eent to the bar/bathroom) and a laminate I cant figure out what it is. There has to be Anyone know? (Im sorry but ive been aasking in all apropriate places, maybe someone in this thread knows Ty for humoring me and that im bad enough with the typing on a tablet but wow im om the phone. Site not mobile friendly. I hope this post isnt a disaster).

Thx to anyone with any answers.

Speaking of The Beatles, the new Super Deluxe edition of Sgt. Pepper is 4CD/DVD/Blu at a price point of $100 more than Purple Rain 3CD/DVD. $100 bucks more for 1 more CD and a blu-ray...

Point being, although this set is far from perfect or complete and the sources for the unreleased tracks is highly suspect, for under $30 this set is a steal and totally worth it for every fan to pick up a copy and reinforce the idea that there is a solid market for MORE Prince.

Just sayin'...

djThunderfunk said:

Point being, although this set is far from perfect or complete and the sources for the unreleased tracks is highly suspect, for under $30 this set is a steal and totally worth it for every fan to pick up a copy and reinforce the idea that there is a solid market for MORE Prince.

.

Yes, I'll buy the set, ordered alreayd, but it shows that WB does not see a higher reslae value in there.

We can assume that the Beatles set is overpriced.

So the more proper 5CD set of this PR remaster, plus the 2 DVD's or rather BluRays we were promised could sell at $65 or so. Mor expensive but also more options to diversify the set.

MiceElfAgin said:

bonatoc said:

Could it be the byproduct of a phaser / flanger artefact leaking?
Given the speed at which he was working/recording/mixing, it is possible they didn't have the time to care about "details" (Susan Rogers said so on several occasions) and make über-pristine mixes (I would hate it, it's the home studio approach that give this organic/analog feel to most of Prince's eighties work).

As for 1999 / SOTT, I don't know what you guys are talking about. Unless you refer to the CD masterings, which are notoriously atrocious, I don't know what's wrong with their sound quality.

.
We just got confirmation that WB didn't have access to the original masters (of the outtakes) so basically it confirms my suspicion that a low quality copy was used from WB's own archives. And in the case of 'Our Destiny' I can even imagine them sourcing it from a cassette.

Regarding 1999 and SOTT: yes, I was referring to the CD masters.

Sorry where is the confirmation that WB didn't have access to the original masters? I've been looking but unable to find this info. Thanks.