james said:

I always felt Batman was a massive dissapointment as a follow up to Lovesexy.

But I recently found that if you skip the obviously "Batman" stuff (and try to ignore the few lyrical references "Vicky Waiting", etc), and include the B-Sides, there's a great album hidden under there!

"I Love U In Me" could fit very well.

"Sex" maybe, even if the version we got doesn't seem to fit well in the context.

"Feel U Up" is one of my favourite P tune, but it shares nothing with all others Batman era songs.

"200 Ballons" is obviously in line with the album, but being the prototype of "Batdance" you have to choose one of the two on the tracklist.

Feel U Up has nothing to do with Batman era, except being on a B-side because it was probably convinient for P at that time. So I won't consider the song at all (but it's between the 3 best if I'd consider it)

The Scandalous EP was what saved the Batman era for me, that was a nice mini album much better than the actual one. I never cared much for Batman the song, Trust, Chair, Orion.

Lemon & Partyman were ok, like 'listenable and somehow enjoyable'. Vicky & Scandalous were standouts.

It could have a MUCH better album with 'Dance' on it, and some of the B-sides (but no Balloons that's like the mentally ill child of Batman, Trust and Love or Money)

PeteSilas said:

PeteSilas said:

Anyway, long story short, i'm sure he knew it would be better to get sales up rather than be a stubborn artist so Diamonds and pearls mixed the polished musicians with hip hop and it worked, the album sold quite well and brought him back.

.

D&P is Prince going full-on commercial in order to show Warners he could be a profitable act and play the game, including a massive worldwide tour and lotsa press (remember the preview where artists like Anthony Kiedis etc were invited so they could provide quotes for use in the press).

.

I always thought the symbol album was an attempt to really sell well and it didn't happen, he had so much faith in himself that he thought he could actually will 5 million albums which that stupid contract dictated, when he saw he couldn't do that it fucked his head up for awhile.

.

That stupid contract was his idea, he wanted "the biggest one ever". Of course Warners wasn't just gonna relinquish a bunch of money without anything in return, hence goals like "sell 5 million in order to receive a better royalty rate". Which is something he (barely) reached with D&P, and only after significant effort from his side.

datdude said:

PeteSilas said:

that album was where it became apparent Prince's "slow jams get written off" on his own words. Even on here, if you look up those ballads by title, lots of people were brutal in their opinion. The slow songs weren't ever hits unless you cound TMBGITW but he was the best of his era in my opinion at being a real soulman. I don't know, maybe that was the reason, those songs are really too soulful for crossover.

[Edited 5/2/17 21:10pm]

'too soulful for crossover'. That shouldve made u cringe when u wrote it. Scandalous, Insatiable, Eye Hate U, Do Me Baby, International Lover, etc ALL got MAJOR love on Black radio and most if not all charted! Fuck crossing the hell over. Those who dont get or appreciate the soul of his ballads, or refer it from the Sam Shepherds of the world can go somewhere...

who's sam shepherd? isn't that the guy who was a doctor and killed his wife? they made the fugitive about him. I didn't know he was a music lover too.

BartVanHemelen said:

PeteSilas said:

Anyway, long story short, i'm sure he knew it would be better to get sales up rather than be a stubborn artist so Diamonds and pearls mixed the polished musicians with hip hop and it worked, the album sold quite well and brought him back.

.

D&P is Prince going full-on commercial in order to show Warners he could be a profitable act and play the game, including a massive worldwide tour and lotsa press (remember the preview where artists like Anthony Kiedis etc were invited so they could provide quotes for use in the press).

.

I always thought the symbol album was an attempt to really sell well and it didn't happen, he had so much faith in himself that he thought he could actually will 5 million albums which that stupid contract dictated, when he saw he couldn't do that it fucked his head up for awhile.

.

That stupid contract was his idea, he wanted "the biggest one ever". Of course Warners wasn't just gonna relinquish a bunch of money without anything in return, hence goals like "sell 5 million in order to receive a better royalty rate". Which is something he (barely) reached with D&P, and only after significant effort from his side.

i don't think he had much idea at all at what he was signing, he just saw dollar signs.

PeteSilas said:

BoraBora said:

luvsexy4all said:

all this love for this album..then why is it never included in his golden era?? ('80-'88)

which could be extended to '96

In my book, "Batman" is part of the Golden Era.

And to some extent also "Graffiti Bridge", as the closing chapter.

I think the reason "Batman" is considered a minor work is essentially because it was the first time Prince did something "commercially" instead of "artistically".

Yes, obviously it isn't in the same league of SOTT or Lovesexy but if you take away the "Batman concept" what remains is a really good "more light and less deep" album, with many tunes in line with Prince's musical evolution (all but "The Arms Of Orion" and "Batdance", the first being pop in a way P never did and the second being a bizarre creation unlike anything done before or after.... and to be clear I love "Batdance" and also like very much TAOO).

I agree that "Lemon Crush" is the worst of the songs on the album, and to me even of the entire Prince catalogue. Take away that, put in "Dance With The Devil" and the album is near perfection according to what it wants to be.

Just my two cents.

I like Lemon Crush, but your same argument could be made against Arms Of Orion!

BoraBora said:

In my book, "Batman" is part of the Golden Era.

And to some extent also "Graffiti Bridge", as the closing chapter.

I think the reason "Batman" is considered a minor work is essentially because it was the first time Prince did something "commercially" instead of "artistically".

Take away that, put in "Dance With The Devil" and the album is near perfection according to what it wants to be.

Totally agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't think it's the first time Prince did something commercially. 1999 was very commercial (read: "Little Red Corvette", "1999"), and Purple Rain was about as commercial as anything. Hell, it opens and closes with a rock song, and has more rock & pop on it than R&B. Controversy was one of his first, really full-on, commercially viable album. The first two were great records to us, and Dirty Mind had that demo feel. It was Controversy that had him really nailing down sounds (the first record with a Minneapolis sound in many ways) and having a goal of particular things he wanted to say or do. There are joyful commercial R&B moments like "Private Joy", "Let's Work", "Controversy", and "Do Me, Baby", that (to me) show us his first really commercially forward album. It certainly holds the line with artistry too with "Annie Christian", "Ronnie", "Sexuality" and even "Jack U Off".

I sorta feel like "Dance with the Devil" is a bit too dark for it, but perhaps "Rave" would have fit somewhere on it. I certainly hope if there is a simple expanded 1-disk set of Batman, or even a 2-disk set, they include "Dance With The Devil", and any other songs sorta written for this era.

200 Balloons is misunderstood. I'll bet it would have fit well in the movie, possibly in the 'Trust' Joker parade scene, because it was Gothams 200th anniversary and there were.. um..Balloons.

jaawwnn said:

Batman is a well underrated album by the general music listening public and non Prince-scholar critics but there's no way you can talk me into believing Lemon Crush is anything beyond the most throwaway garbage.

Arms of Orion is far worse.

I have always had a different perspective on Arms of Orion than the haters of the song. When I first heard the song, I was amazed that he was able to master the syrupy movie ballad so well. It made me appreciate just what a wide range of things he could do well, even middle of the road stuff. After all, this was for a movie and I imagine he wanted to do something in that tradition. I get that is not mostly what we wanted to hear from him, but I was fine with it for this occasion.

I have also come to admire Batdance more than I did originally. I didn't play it for years because it just seemed so tied to the craze associated with the release of the movie that it seemed dated. Lately I have really gotten into some of the extended mixes, and really enjoy the ingeniousness of all the mood, instrumental, and tempo changes throughout the song. It was much more than just some random mix of samples!

I've never understood the hate for Lemon Crush either.... or for Arms Of Orion, either.

Yes, they're both a bit light, lyric-wise - Arms is a bit slushy, and Lemon Crush is nonsenical, but MUSICALLY, they are both fantastic to my ears. The vocal in Arms is incredible, and the strings mellding with the melody, which is an unusual and 'intelligent' one (as the melody for 'I Hate U' was later called), and the arrangement of Lemon Crush is fantastic. So much going on with just the rhythm tracks alone, let alone everything else. Lemon Crush is a somehow exciting track, I find it fun to sing along to. The layers of vocals are impressive and again, how he melds everything together.

As a whole, it didn't measure up maybe to Lovesexy and what came before, but it had its own character, and there was a lot of great musicianship and focus on display.

I don't agree at all with this article, Batman was the first Prince album where some tracks felt too easy for him. With all the albums before, you could see him pushing himself, stretching in one way or another, but this one had more than a couple of tracks that felt like the product of templates. So Batman -- to me -- has a couple of uninspired songs (for him), but also a few classic tracks. AOA tried harder, the material is actually more compelling as a whole than Batman, all things considered.

Masterpiece, no way. The Future, Chair and Batman thje only great tracks.

I love Batman and listen to it far more than ATWIND .

I do agree that Rave or Dance With The Devil would have made the album stronger.

TrivialPursuit said:

BoraBora said:

In my book, "Batman" is part of the Golden Era.

And to some extent also "Graffiti Bridge", as the closing chapter.

I think the reason "Batman" is considered a minor work is essentially because it was the first time Prince did something "commercially" instead of "artistically".

Take away that, put in "Dance With The Devil" and the album is near perfection according to what it wants to be.

Totally agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't think it's the first time Prince did something commercially. 1999 was very commercial (read: "Little Red Corvette", "1999"), and Purple Rain was about as commercial as anything.

I think they only sound that way in retrospect since those albums helped to define the era. It's easy to say now that they were "commercial" because they became the norm but, at the time, no one had really heard anything quite like what he was doing. Bits and pieces sure. He was cribbing a LOT of easy to identify influences (and some not so obvious ones) and blending it into a stew all his own but it's like saying that the Clash with "Rock the Casbah", U2 with "War" or Metallica's "And Justice For All" were being "commercial" simply because they became popular and found a broader audience.

MTV really really helped Prince achieve mainstream success back then and absolutely can not be undertated, especially since a big part of his appeal was the look. Without MTV, I doubt he would have reached the sales figures he did and, as such, would have been regarded as more of a cult artist; which ironically he kind of sort of became.

My point being, I think we're labeling the records as "commercial" in retrospect simply because of their sales. Songs like "LPWM", "Darling Nikki", "DMSR", "Something in the Water", etc....at that time were in no way designed to cater to the masses. I think the public had simply caught up to what he was doing. D&P and Batman were the first times I ever caught a genuine whiff of Prince mainly/simply trying to sell albums, especially after really challenging records like ATWIAD, Lovesexy and SOTT.

Aerogram said:

I don't agree at all with this article, Batman was the first Prince album where some tracks felt too easy for him. With all the albums before, you could see him pushing himself, stretching in one way or another, but this one had more than a couple of tracks that felt like the product of templates. So Batman -- to me -- has a couple of uninspired songs (for him), but also a few classic tracks. AOA tried harder, the material is actually more compelling as a whole than Batman, all things considered.

I think that was because with Batman you could tell he had these songs laying around baking then shoehorned the theme of the film in as an afterthought. Hence, all the samples and pronoun changes in the song titles.

I'm not a huge fan of the film or the album but they both get points for style and, probably more significant, marketing. That god damn bat logo was EVERYWHERE that year.

herb4 said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Totally agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't think it's the first time Prince did something commercially. 1999 was very commercial (read: "Little Red Corvette", "1999"), and Purple Rain was about as commercial as anything.

I think they only sound that way in retrospect since those albums helped to define the era. It's easy to say now that they were "commercial" because they became the norm but, at the time, no one had really heard anything quite like what he was doing. Bits and pieces sure. He was cribbing a LOT of easy to identify influences (and some not so obvious ones) and blending it into a stew all his own but it's like saying that the Clash with "Rock the Casbah", U2 with "War" or Metallica's "And Justice For All" were being "commercial" simply because they became popular and found a broader audience.

MTV really really helped Prince achieve mainstream success back then and absolutely can not be undertated, especially since a big part of his appeal was the look. Without MTV, I doubt he would have reached the sales figures he did and, as such, would have been regarded as more of a cult artist; which ironically he kind of sort of became.

My point being, I think we're labeling the records as "commercial" in retrospect simply because of their sales. Songs like "LPWM", "Darling Nikki", "DMSR", "Something in the Water", etc....at that time were in no way designed to cater to the masses. I think the public had simply caught up to what he was doing. D&P and Batman were the first times I ever caught a genuine whiff of Prince mainly/simply trying to sell albums, especially after really challenging records like ATWIAD, Lovesexy and SOTT.

Agree with you...

In terms of trying to appeal deliberately to the commercial masses, it was BATMAN, D&P and MUSICOLOGY.

All came with a huge media promotion plan, and all were somewhat "AVERAGE" albums, with some great tracks on them.

BATMAN has sold over 4 Million in the U.S. alone, and D&P has sold over 6.7 million worldwide, and MUSICOLOGY his last "big hit" sold over 2 million in the U.S. alone.

feeluupp said:

herb4 said:

I think they only sound that way in retrospect since those albums helped to define the era. It's easy to say now that they were "commercial" because they became the norm but, at the time, no one had really heard anything quite like what he was doing. Bits and pieces sure. He was cribbing a LOT of easy to identify influences (and some not so obvious ones) and blending it into a stew all his own but it's like saying that the Clash with "Rock the Casbah", U2 with "War" or Metallica's "And Justice For All" were being "commercial" simply because they became popular and found a broader audience.

MTV really really helped Prince achieve mainstream success back then and absolutely can not be undertated, especially since a big part of his appeal was the look. Without MTV, I doubt he would have reached the sales figures he did and, as such, would have been regarded as more of a cult artist; which ironically he kind of sort of became.

My point being, I think we're labeling the records as "commercial" in retrospect simply because of their sales. Songs like "LPWM", "Darling Nikki", "DMSR", "Something in the Water", etc....at that time were in no way designed to cater to the masses. I think the public had simply caught up to what he was doing. D&P and Batman were the first times I ever caught a genuine whiff of Prince mainly/simply trying to sell albums, especially after really challenging records like ATWIAD, Lovesexy and SOTT.

Agree with you...

In terms of trying to appeal deliberately to the commercial masses, it was BATMAN, D&P and MUSICOLOGY.

All came with a huge media promotion plan, and all were somewhat "AVERAGE" albums, with some great tracks on them.

BATMAN has sold over 4 Million in the U.S. alone, and D&P has sold over 6.7 million worldwide, and MUSICOLOGY his last "big hit" sold over 2 million in the U.S. alone.

I'd throw "Rave" in there too, except that was the only one that really failed commercially. Also, out of the "Prince Trying to Sell Albums" category, I think Musicology is probably the strongest of the bunch. Maybe D&P.

herb4 said:

feeluupp said:

Agree with you...

In terms of trying to appeal deliberately to the commercial masses, it was BATMAN, D&P and MUSICOLOGY.

All came with a huge media promotion plan, and all were somewhat "AVERAGE" albums, with some great tracks on them.

BATMAN has sold over 4 Million in the U.S. alone, and D&P has sold over 6.7 million worldwide, and MUSICOLOGY his last "big hit" sold over 2 million in the U.S. alone.

I'd throw "Rave" in there too, except that was the only one that really failed commercially. Also, out of the "Prince Trying to Sell Albums" category, I think Musicology is probably the strongest of the bunch. Maybe D&P.

Yea your right about RAVE... He really tried to push that commercially, even that cringeworthy apperance he made on TRL... But in 1999, as ironic as it seems, he just wasn't "in" with the new generation. Especially his look wearing those Jehovva Witness type clothing... Rave was a real commercial failure, even though Arista spent millions and millions upon promotion... It barely went GOLD in the U.S. and world wide it sold very little.

His best most commercial was D&P... All the promotion he did with that record and it paid off.

PeteSilas said:

kmama07 said:

PeteSilas said:

that album was where it became apparent Prince's "slow jams get written off" on his own words. Even on here, if you look up those ballads by title, lots of people were brutal in their opinion. The slow songs weren't ever hits unless you cound TMBGITW but he was the best of his era in my opinion at being a real soulman. I don't know, maybe that was the reason, those songs are really too soulful for crossover.

[Edited 5/2/17 21:10pm]

Love the slow jams. There should be a "Prince Slow Jams" compilation (other than the one I made for myself. Haha)

yup, i'd go so far as to say no one did it more prolifically with that quality. he even had a great variety too, a song like "i love you but don't trust u anymore" is more pop ballad than soul and it's about as good as the more soulful ones.

herb4 said:

Aerogram said:

I don't agree at all with this article, Batman was the first Prince album where some tracks felt too easy for him. With all the albums before, you could see him pushing himself, stretching in one way or another, but this one had more than a couple of tracks that felt like the product of templates. So Batman -- to me -- has a couple of uninspired songs (for him), but also a few classic tracks. AOA tried harder, the material is actually more compelling as a whole than Batman, all things considered.

I think that was because with Batman you could tell he had these songs laying around baking then shoehorned the theme of the film in as an afterthought. Hence, all the samples and pronoun changes in the song titles.

I'm not a huge fan of the film or the album but they both get points for style and, probably more significant, marketing. That god damn bat logo was EVERYWHERE that year.

lots of people have suspected that he had those songs just lying around somewhere, especially when he made the statement that it was completed in a week. to me, the lyrics sounded rushed and a little awkward in some spaces, just like the sometimes were on his b-sides, sounded like he was just trying to get something done and cut a couple corners. You're right about the film, it was huge, it's crazy how it's seemed to be forgotten about now. You never hear about it but for several months that's all anyone talked about. I still think Jack Nicholson's performance spawned many many copycats, even had Deniro playing the devlish clown in Cape Fear to name just one.

kingricefan said:

PeteSilas said:

kmama07 said:

PeteSilas said: Love the slow jams. There should be a "Prince Slow Jams" compilation (other than the one I made for myself. Haha)

yup, i'd go so far as to say no one did it more prolifically with that quality. he even had a great variety too, a song like "i love you but don't trust u anymore" is more pop ballad than soul and it's about as good as the more soulful ones.

His CD closest to a slow jams CD was disc 2 of Emancipation, a favorite of mine. It would be nice to have the greatest ones across all of his CDs though. It makes so much sense to do this that surely they won't .

The album is important to me because it came at an impressionable time. I still know the words to most of the tracks. THAT SAID, it's pretty obvious he over-reached. He was asked for 2 or 3 tracks and gave something like a dozen. The album is exactly what you'd expect given that scenario. Quantity over quality. He gets away with it, though, because he's Prince--and that's enough for me.

gandorb said:

PeteSilas said:

yup, i'd go so far as to say no one did it more prolifically with that quality. he even had a great variety too, a song like "i love you but don't trust u anymore" is more pop ballad than soul and it's about as good as the more soulful ones.

His CD closest to a slow jams CD was disc 2 of Emancipation, a favorite of mine. It would be nice to have the greatest ones across all of his CDs though. It makes so much sense to do this that surely they won't .

ya, excellent songs there, it's a fact that quality does not always equate to success.