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Reply #510 posted 05/26/17 9:30pm

PennyPurple

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Chapter 18 Smorgasbord of Attitude and Vibe Pages 192-207

.

Prince asked Jill Jones who was only 18, to contribute back up vocals on his 5th album. Little did she know that the same invite was extended to Denise Mathews.

.

Prince prepared to work on 3 projects, his 5th album, The Time's 2nd album and to create an all girl group around Denise Mathews aka Vanity.

.

Prince decided to do a film project that was shot at his Purple home, and revolved around his interactions with several girls in lingerie which included Susan Moonsie. When P seen some of the results of this film, he pulled the plug on it.

.

His primary love interest was Jill Jones who said they were together 24/7

.

Peggy McCreary entered the picture and she was leary of it. Prince worked hard and expected her to also.

.

Prince named the all girl group, Vanity 6 because the 3 girls, Mathews, Moonsie & Bennett had 6 boobs between them.

.

Prince and Denise Mathews relationship became explosive. Prince was still seeing Jones, and Moonsie, and Mathews became jealous. Roy Bennett said his relationship with Mathews wasn't as close as his relationship with Moonsie. Prince became outraged when Mathews started showing her independence, but he continued working on Vanity 6. Vanity 6 was being dragged down due to lack of vocal talent. Mathews showed no signs of range or emotional depth, Moonsie & Bennett were not professional singers.

.

The Times 2nd Album did very well. It had a song on it that happened to be Dez's phone number. eek he was forced to have it changed, when he started getting phone calls.

.

Little Red Corvette was written. 1999 became his 5th album, released in 1982. The tour was to begin in November. Prince had is own bus, where he traveled with Big Chick, Fargnoli and one of is girlfriends. The band was feeling distant from their leader. Dez became uncomfortable performing some of the songs. Prince started to look for a replacement and found Wendy Melvoin, which was Lisa's girlfriend.

.

P's relationship with The Time started to go down hill even more. Lewis and Harris started doing sidework. The Time was upstaging Prince and P wasn't happy, he cut them from the tour on several major city's. Morris wanted more money and Prince wouldn't have it.

.

Denise Mathews found herself under quite a bit of stress and became overwhelmed, and started drinking. Fan's thought of her as Prince's leading lady, but he had given up this idea rather quickly. She still remained a sexual option for him, but she was 1 of many. Mathews, Moonsie, Jones became jealous of each other, Moonsie had enough and left him romantically and became friends with Mathews.

.

MTV began airing the video 1999 making Prince one of the few black artists in regular rotation.

.

After the tour Dez quit and in came Wendy. Prince began working on his relationship with the band again.

.

Things began to fall apart due in part to P's aloofness. Mathews stability was beginning to crumble. His treatment of lovers was callous and caused a lot of hurt feelings. Prince again drew a wall around himself.

.

Prince became a star mostly all on his own. He had ensured that no friend, family or lover had any meaningful claim on his attention or time.

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Reply #511 posted 05/26/17 9:38pm

LBrent

Vashtix said:

Misslink88 said:

This is the conclusion I've come to. Somehow or another she met Rick and was with him (there is even some scant evidence that Super Freak was written about her) and then went over to the P camp. As Reciprocity said, she dated Adam Ant and was in Japan (modelling) when he played there so this was nothing new. Personally - and this is only speculation - I believe the AMA story was contrived as a back story for Vanity 6.

You think Vanity lied about the meeting?

Personally, I don't think Vanity lied.

I think it's like most events in one's life. You're living, things are happening (sometimes lotsa exciting things at the same time) and when you try to encapsulate everything later by retelling the events you may not tell them in the exact order that someone else recalls the exact same events.

Doesn't mean either person is lying cuz that goes to intent. Deliberately telling something you know is untrue is lying. Misremembering facts isn't deliberate, and therefore not lying.

It's all about the intent to deceive or not.

[Edited 5/26/17 21:58pm]

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Reply #512 posted 05/27/17 5:21am

luvgirl

Vashtix said:



love4real said:


Hi all,



I just want to add some interesting tidbits about how Prince first met Vanity for your consideration.



I read Rick James's autobiography "Memoirs of a SuperFreak" and it is extremely raw, funny, direct and quite graphic. He pulls no punches and told many intimate details about the record industry, the party scene and his drug usage, his friends, enemies, colleagues and his own dating and sexual exploits with various women (Linda Blair, Teena Marie, Catherine Bach, Janice Dickenson, Ola Ray etc). He will call a "spade a spade". If he did not like you, your name was mentioned in this book. His autobiography is the epitome of a "tell all" book.



In this book, he briefly mentions Vanity only once in his book. He does states in passing that he met Vanity at an awards show. Unfortunately, he did not state any specifics about the event (the type of awards show and the year). Also, he does not state whether he was seeing her or worked with her etc. He does mention that he felt that Prince's team stole his “girl group” concept and created Vanity 6 that was based on a discussion Rick had with Prince's manager. His opinion about Vanity 6 is also mentioned in "Glow, The Autobiography of Rick James" by David Ritz. Vanity/Denise is not mentioned in the Glow book.



As many of you are aware, Rick is very outspoken. In my opinion, if he knew her or had some type of relationship with her (personal or professional) prior to her meeting with Prince at the AMA’s he would have mentioned it in detail in his book.



Just my humble opinion... biggrin



BTW, if you are interested in reading about the life of a true and original SuperFreak (Rick James that is), I recommend that you read his autobiography and David Ritz's book "Glow". It is a trip and a treat to read:-D eek lol



"Temptations sing...."OH OH OH OH OH OH OH". lol




[Edited 5/26/17 13:15pm]


[Edited 5/26/17 13:18pm]



He would not be able to write about her if she would not allow.



In regards to Dez Dickerson's comment, down below is exactly what Dez said about how Vanity entered the picture. Notice how the author only started quoting him when he said "The story goes" implying that even back then, it was all hearsay. Everything before it was not Dez's quote.

Prince threw a party at the American music awards show a year or so after the tour and slick rick bought ms Matthews along... "The story goes that somehow or another Prince enticed her away from Rick" shrugs Dickerson, "and a few days later, there she was on the bus, on the road with us. One day she was Denise and then she was vanity and suddenly she was a star."

What love4real is saying is that if there were anything solicitous that happened between Rick James and Vanity, he would have said it in his book just like he did about all the other women he messed around with. He wasn't afraid. The dirt he spilled wasn't pretty, and I'm sure the unlucky women didn't appreciate it, but they couldn't stop him. If they could have stopped him they would have.. For that matter, no one would have been able to write about Prince when he was alive if he could have stopped them... Hence, Vanity wasn't a part of Rick James groupies, hence, she wasn't messing around with him before she met Prince like the rumors have been saying... Like this book is saying...

This helps to validate what Denise said in her book, (not that what she says needs validating, it was her life and she lived it. She wrote her book as a mature Christian woman, as a resource and testimony to lead people to God.) But it helps to validate exactly what she says, that she met Prince and Rick James that night at the AMA, after both of them tried to hit on her. It seems the only stealing that took place was at the AMA when Denise chose Prince over Rick. I think that's how those rumors got started.

No offense to Alex Hahn and Laura Tibert but this is justification to me and just another example that everything said about Prince and Vanity's relationship in this book isn't absolute truth or told with clarity. There are too many missing pieces... And it shows that no one knows it all... The way this book portrays their relationship, (just look at chapter eighteen's outline) it seems as if they didn't even have one at any point whatsoever. We know from both Prince and Vanity and others that they had a passionate (albeit, volitile) relationship and loved each other very deeply at one point. Vanity says this and even Prince said this as well thirty five years later, when there were no need to lie, no need to string fans along, but you would have never garnered that or anything either of them said after reading this book.
[Edited 5/27/17 6:17am]
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Reply #513 posted 05/27/17 6:16am

LBrent

luvgirl said:

Vashtix said:

He would not be able to write about her if she would not allow.

In regards to Dez Dickerson's comment, down below is exactly what Dez said about how Vanity entered the picture. Notice how the author only started quoting him when he said "The story goes" implying that even back then, it was all hearsay. Everything before it was not Dez's quote. Prince threw a party at the American music awards show a year or so after the tour and slick rick bought ms Matthews along... "The story goes that somehow or another Prince enticed her away from Rick" shrugs Dickerson, "and a few days later, there she was on the bus, on the road with us. One day she was Denise and then she was vanity and suddenly she was a star." What love4real is saying is that if there were anything solicitous that happened between Rick James and Vanity, he would have said it in his book just like he did about all the other women he messed around with. He wasn't afraid. The dirt he spilled wasn't pretty, and I'm sure the unlucky women didn't appreciate it, but they couldn't stop him. If they could have stopped him, no one would have been able to write about Prince when he was alive either... Hence, Vanity wasn't a part of his groupies, hence, she wasn't messing around with Rick James before she met Prince like the rumors have been saying... Like this book is saying... This helps to validate what Denise said in her book, (not that what she says needs validating, it was her life and she lived it. She wrote her book as a mature Christian woman, as a resource and testimony to lead people to God.) But it helps to validate exactly what she says, that she met Prince and Rick James that night at the AMA, after both of them tried to hit on her. It seems the only stealing that took place was at the AMA when Denise chose Prince over Rick. I think that's how those rumors got started. No offense to Alex Hahn and Laura Tibert but this is justification to me and just another example that everything said about Prince and Vanity's relationship in this book isn't absolute truth or told with clarity. There are many missing pieces... The way this book portrays their relationship, (just look at chapter eighteen's outline) it seems as if they didn't even have one at any point whatsoever. We know from both Prince and Vanity and others that they had a passionate (albeit, volitile) relationship and loved each other very deeply at one point. Vanity says this and even Prince said this as well thirty five years later, when there were no need to lie, no need to string fans along, but you would have never garnered that or anything either of them said after reading this book. [Edited 5/27/17 5:57am]

Seriously, is there doubt that P & V had a relationship back in the day?

Their relationship was pretty much legendary back then.

They were the epitome of the naughty purple couple up until she walked away just before PR.

I had no idea this was even in question.

eek confused

[Edited 5/27/17 6:17am]

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Reply #514 posted 05/27/17 7:25am

PennyPurple

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There is no doubt that Prince and Vanity was a couple. Several things are messed up, did they meet in 1980 0r 1982, and was V in a relationship with Rick James? Several conflicting stories and books are telling us something different, then this book. I think TOB even was questioning the year they met because he had Denise's personal papers. So we have RJ's book, Dez's book and V's papers telling us something different.

.

Prince had Moonsie, Jones & Vanity at the same time, on the same tour. Which one he wanted for the night was his choosing. That in itself would make the girls competitive. The difference with Vanity was she didn't wait around for Prince and started going out with other guys to get to him. She gave him a dose of his own medicine, and she started drinking. Now if this book is to be believed, Prince was thru with her anyway and only used her for a roll in the sheets when he chose to do so. And I can see him doing this, using her.

.

Another note in history, was MTV not putting black artists on the air. MTV started in 1981, I remember it to this day, I was 18. It's a damn shame that in 1981, they wouldn't put black artists on the air, and in my opinion the black artists had the best music at that time.

.

Also to note, you can see Prince pulling away from everyone, even though he tried to be a band member, he really wasn't. I don't think P needed anybody, he got to his point of super stardom in his career basically on his own. Big Chick provided him the opportunity of being alone by protecting him from the other band members so they wouldn't bother him.

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Reply #515 posted 05/27/17 8:38am

Misslink88

Vashtix said:

Misslink88 said:

This is the conclusion I've come to. Somehow or another she met Rick and was with him (there is even some scant evidence that Super Freak was written about her) and then went over to the P camp. As Reciprocity said, she dated Adam Ant and was in Japan (modelling) when he played there so this was nothing new. Personally - and this is only speculation - I believe the AMA story was contrived as a back story for Vanity 6.

You think Vanity lied about the meeting?

There are a couple of things that don't add up and the dates are hard to peg down. "I met him at the AMA's" sounds better than "I was a groupie" for one thing. The modelling world, especially at the time, was rampant with coke use (an addiction she had, but then again, Rick was a user so she might have picked it up there). When she was with Adam Ant, they ran into Rick James at a gig or party and he said something quite distasteful to her that would indicate they knew each other prior. Adam Ant was after Rick, but before P and that's the date that is hard to peg. However, the AMA story may be what really happened it's just whether or not it was 1980 or 1982. Depending on the date, the key players change.

God is my Sugar Daddy.
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Reply #516 posted 05/27/17 8:52am

gandorb

PennyPurple said:

There is no doubt that Prince and Vanity was a couple. Several things are messed up, did they meet in 1980 0r 1982, and was V in a relationship with Rick James? Several conflicting stories and books are telling us something different, then this book. I think TOB even was questioning the year they met because he had Denise's personal papers. So we have RJ's book, Dez's book and V's papers telling us something different.


.


Prince had Moonsie, Jones & Vanity at the same time, on the same tour. Which one he wanted for the night was his choosing. That in itself would make the girls competitive. The difference with Vanity was she didn't wait around for Prince and started going out with other guys to get to him. She gave him a dose of his own medicine, and she started drinking. Now if this book is to be believed, Prince was thru with her anyway and only used her for a roll in the sheets when he chose to do so. And I can see him doing this, using her.


.


Another note in history, was MTV not putting black artists on the air. MTV started in 1981, I remember it to this day, I was 18. It's a damn shame that in 1981, they wouldn't put black artists on the air, and in my opinion the black artists had the best music at that time.


.


Also to note, you can see Prince pulling away from everyone, even though he tried to be a band member, he really wasn't. I don't think P needed anybody, he got to his point of super stardom in his career basically on his own. Big Chick provided him the opportunity of being alone by protecting him from the other band members so they wouldn't bother him.


[quote]

Too bad P felt this way. His true collaborations on the Parade album and The Flesh Sessions were awesome.
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Reply #517 posted 05/27/17 9:46am

Misslink88

It should be mentioned that Denise was sent to work with Howard Bloom as well.

God is my Sugar Daddy.
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Reply #518 posted 05/27/17 2:35pm

tigerlilyluv

Where might the book authors be? If he chooses to answer, I'm curious as to why he didn't go by what Denise stated in her book, since it was about her life. People do tend to forget things--which is common, but she never switched from 1980 and her family seem to have agreed it was 1980 as well for them to put it on her obituary. There are articles out there with 1980 as well 81, 82... When something such as accuracy comes to play, I would think it would be more professional as an author to use the term "it was rumored"... or something to that effect. Many articles had that term. What could be more valid for an author than hearing it from the person it was about. There are many who respected P turning his life around and turning towards God. Would anyone think he would blatantly lie to the world about anything during his faithfulness to living the JW life? I believe Denise, not just because she's been pretty consistent about it, not because her family and her pastors must've thought it as well, but mainly because Denise said the same thing (1980) while she was deep in her Christian life. It's not like she was just some person who found God after a near-death experience. She actually became Christian before she nearly died and briefly fell to sin before faithfully dedicating her life to God. She was quite deeply devoted to God and an evangelist when she wrote that book. I personally don't see her sticking with the same lie in her Christian years. That woman was so devoted to God, I don't even understand why anyone would even think she was lying. I'm hoping Hahn would decide to reply in regards to Denise as to why he think it was 82 instead of 80? Is it just because of what Dez said? That quote above? Please forgive me for my lengthy text. I tend to do that a lot. It's not intentional.
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Reply #519 posted 05/27/17 2:45pm

tigerlilyluv

Misslink88 said:



Vashtix said:




Misslink88 said:



This is the conclusion I've come to. Somehow or another she met Rick and was with him (there is even some scant evidence that Super Freak was written about her) and then went over to the P camp. As Reciprocity said, she dated Adam Ant and was in Japan (modelling) when he played there so this was nothing new. Personally - and this is only speculation - I believe the AMA story was contrived as a back story for Vanity 6.




You think Vanity lied about the meeting?





There are a couple of things that don't add up and the dates are hard to peg down. "I met him at the AMA's" sounds better than "I was a groupie" for one thing. The modelling world, especially at the time, was rampant with coke use (an addiction she had, but then again, Rick was a user so she might have picked it up there). When she was with Adam Ant, they ran into Rick James at a gig or party and he said something quite distasteful to her that would indicate they knew each other prior. Adam Ant was after Rick, but before P and that's the date that is hard to peg. However, the AMA story may be what really happened it's just whether or not it was 1980 or 1982. Depending on the date, the key players change.




From what Denise said, she didn't get heavy into smoking coke until when she was with Prince and that she did it to stand up to him. We all know, at least from those that were involved confessed, how harsh Prince would be at times. But she also made sure the world knew her choosing to smoke coke was her own choice and Prince wasn't to blame. I read her entire Facebook posts and was saddened to find out that her father even punched her in the face! There's no telling how bad that abuse went. Then she meet Prince and maybe it was too much to go through (the way she was being treated), I'm assuming.
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Reply #520 posted 05/27/17 4:24pm

Misslink88

tigerlilyluv said:

Misslink88 said:

There are a couple of things that don't add up and the dates are hard to peg down. "I met him at the AMA's" sounds better than "I was a groupie" for one thing. The modelling world, especially at the time, was rampant with coke use (an addiction she had, but then again, Rick was a user so she might have picked it up there). When she was with Adam Ant, they ran into Rick James at a gig or party and he said something quite distasteful to her that would indicate they knew each other prior. Adam Ant was after Rick, but before P and that's the date that is hard to peg. However, the AMA story may be what really happened it's just whether or not it was 1980 or 1982. Depending on the date, the key players change.

From what Denise said, she didn't get heavy into smoking coke until when she was with Prince and that she did it to stand up to him. We all know, at least from those that were involved confessed, how harsh Prince would be at times. But she also made sure the world knew her choosing to smoke coke was her own choice and Prince wasn't to blame. I read her entire Facebook posts and was saddened to find out that her father even punched her in the face! There's no telling how bad that abuse went. Then she meet Prince and maybe it was too much to go through (the way she was being treated), I'm assuming.

Denise's early childhood was very traumatic. A coping mechanism would be necessary (everybody has experienced emotional pain and everybody uses something to cope with it). Assuming they met in January of whichever year, he asks her to move to Minnie to head up V6. This is the part I'm not clear about (having never read her book). Statler was tapped to start The Second Coming video/film which was scrapped in March/April '82, at which point P goes to LA and takes up with JJ. But JJ was born in 1962 and if she were 18 at the time that would put it at 1980. The fact he left to go to LA in '82 and took up with JJ would indicate a) if he met Denise in 1980, he was pretty much moving on after the V6 album was finished or b) if they met in 1982, it started off as a business proposition.

This from Prince Vault:

Recording process

Some of the tracks were originally recorded in 1981 and intended for the group The Hookers. Wet Dream, Make-Up and Drive Me Wild were recorded in Summer 1981, but the album by The Hookers was left unfinished in Autumn, 1981, when Prince embarked on the Controversy Tour (see details of the album in the trivia section below).

The Hookers evolved into Vanity 6 when Vanity (born Denise Matthews) and Brenda Bennett joined the group, replacing Jamie Shoop and forming a trio.

Nasty Girl, Bite The Beat and He's So Dull were recorded in late March 1982 for the newly revised group. If A Girl Answers (Don't Hang Up) and 3 x 2 = 6 were the final tracks recorded for the album, in March or April 1982. Vanity and Brenda Bennett's vocals for Wet Dream, Make-Up and Drive Me Wild were also recorded at some point in Spring, 1982.

God is my Sugar Daddy.
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Reply #521 posted 05/27/17 4:29pm

PennyPurple

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tigerlilyluv said:

Where might the book authors be? If he chooses to answer, I'm curious as to why he didn't go by what Denise stated in her book, since it was about her life. People do tend to forget things--which is common, but she never switched from 1980 and her family seem to have agreed it was 1980 as well for them to put it on her obituary. There are articles out there with 1980 as well 81, 82... When something such as accuracy comes to play, I would think it would be more professional as an author to use the term "it was rumored"... or something to that effect. Many articles had that term. What could be more valid for an author than hearing it from the person it was about. There are many who respected P turning his life around and turning towards God. Would anyone think he would blatantly lie to the world about anything during his faithfulness to living the JW life? I believe Denise, not just because she's been pretty consistent about it, not because her family and her pastors must've thought it as well, but mainly because Denise said the same thing (1980) while she was deep in her Christian life. It's not like she was just some person who found God after a near-death experience. She actually became Christian before she nearly died and briefly fell to sin before faithfully dedicating her life to God. She was quite deeply devoted to God and an evangelist when she wrote that book. I personally don't see her sticking with the same lie in her Christian years. That woman was so devoted to God, I don't even understand why anyone would even think she was lying. I'm hoping Hahn would decide to reply in regards to Denise as to why he think it was 82 instead of 80? Is it just because of what Dez said? That quote above? Please forgive me for my lengthy text. I tend to do that a lot. It's not intentional.

Alex and Laura T, are participating in this thread from time to time. Give them a chance to tell us where their info came from.

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Reply #522 posted 05/27/17 4:51pm

Misslink88

PennyPurple said:

There is no doubt that Prince and Vanity was a couple. Several things are messed up, did they meet in 1980 0r 1982, and was V in a relationship with Rick James? Several conflicting stories and books are telling us something different, then this book. I think TOB even was questioning the year they met because he had Denise's personal papers. So we have RJ's book, Dez's book and V's papers telling us something different.

.

Prince had Moonsie, Jones & Vanity at the same time, on the same tour. Which one he wanted for the night was his choosing. That in itself would make the girls competitive. The difference with Vanity was she didn't wait around for Prince and started going out with other guys to get to him. She gave him a dose of his own medicine, and she started drinking. Now if this book is to be believed, Prince was thru with her anyway and only used her for a roll in the sheets when he chose to do so. And I can see him doing this, using her.

.

Another note in history, was MTV not putting black artists on the air. MTV started in 1981, I remember it to this day, I was 18. It's a damn shame that in 1981, they wouldn't put black artists on the air, and in my opinion the black artists had the best music at that time.

.

Also to note, you can see Prince pulling away from everyone, even though he tried to be a band member, he really wasn't. I don't think P needed anybody, he got to his point of super stardom in his career basically on his own. Big Chick provided him the opportunity of being alone by protecting him from the other band members so they wouldn't bother him.

I see this from a different perspective. As sales and fame increased, this was no longer "a band" but a business and P was the "brand". Familiarity breeds contempt. Perhaps P put distance between himself and the band members precisely because of the tensions and gripes so he could focus on the tour and the direction he was going in?

God is my Sugar Daddy.
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Reply #523 posted 05/27/17 6:43pm

LBrent

Honestly, I don't understand what the big deal is about the exact date P & V got together.

Is there something I'm missing?

Cuz seriously, one brief relationship that wasn't even exclusive and apparently ended abruptly doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of P's 40 year career.

What exactly, besides the dates, are ya tryna prove?

That he was with several gals at one time? Probably. That he still had a fondness for them after the "romances" were over? Probably. Was P a scoundrel? Probably.

So?

confused

[Edited 5/27/17 18:44pm]

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Reply #524 posted 05/27/17 6:59pm

laurarichardso
n

Misslink88 said:



tigerlilyluv said:


Misslink88 said:


There are a couple of things that don't add up and the dates are hard to peg down. "I met him at the AMA's" sounds better than "I was a groupie" for one thing. The modelling world, especially at the time, was rampant with coke use (an addiction she had, but then again, Rick was a user so she might have picked it up there). When she was with Adam Ant, they ran into Rick James at a gig or party and he said something quite distasteful to her that would indicate they knew each other prior. Adam Ant was after Rick, but before P and that's the date that is hard to peg. However, the AMA story may be what really happened it's just whether or not it was 1980 or 1982. Depending on the date, the key players change.



From what Denise said, she didn't get heavy into smoking coke until when she was with Prince and that she did it to stand up to him. We all know, at least from those that were involved confessed, how harsh Prince would be at times. But she also made sure the world knew her choosing to smoke coke was her own choice and Prince wasn't to blame. I read her entire Facebook posts and was saddened to find out that her father even punched her in the face! There's no telling how bad that abuse went. Then she meet Prince and maybe it was too much to go through (the way she was being treated), I'm assuming.

Denise's early childhood was very traumatic. A coping mechanism would be necessary (everybody has experienced emotional pain and everybody uses something to cope with it). Assuming they met in January of whichever year, he asks her to move to Minnie to head up V6. This is the part I'm not clear about (having never read her book). Statler was tapped to start The Second Coming video/film which was scrapped in March/April '82, at which point P goes to LA and takes up with JJ. But JJ was born in 1962 and if she were 18 at the time that would put it at 1980. The fact he left to go to LA in '82 and took up with JJ would indicate a) if he met Denise in 1980, he was pretty much moving on after the V6 album was finished or b) if they met in 1982, it started off as a business proposition.



This from Prince Vault:



Recording process


Some of the tracks were originally recorded in 1981 and intended for the group The Hookers. Wet Dream, Make-Up and Drive Me Wild were recorded in Summer 1981, but the album by The Hookers was left unfinished in Autumn, 1981, when Prince embarked on the Controversy Tour (see details of the album in the trivia section below).



The Hookers evolved into Vanity 6 when Vanity (born Denise Matthews) and Brenda Bennett joined the group, replacing Jamie Shoop and forming a trio.



Nasty Girl, Bite The Beat and He's So Dull were recorded in late March 1982 for the newly revised group. If A Girl Answers (Don't Hang Up) and 3 x 2 = 6 were the final tracks recorded for the album, in March or April 1982. Vanity and Brenda Bennett's vocals for Wet Dream, Make-Up and Drive Me Wild were also recorded at some point in Spring, 1982.


--- Jill already said she met Prince on the Fire It Up your. She started seeing him in L. A and she was already in Minneapolus went he brought Vanity to Minneapolis. She said all this on the Prince podcast.
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Reply #525 posted 05/27/17 7:15pm

PennyPurple

avatar

LBrent said:

Honestly, I don't understand what the big deal is about the exact date P & V got together.

Is there something I'm missing?

Cuz seriously, one brief relationship that wasn't even exclusive and apparently ended abruptly doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of P's 40 year career.

What exactly, besides the dates, are ya tryna prove?

That he was with several gals at one time? Probably. That he still had a fondness for them after the "romances" were over? Probably. Was P a scoundrel? Probably.

So?

confused

[Edited 5/27/17 18:44pm]

Not trying to prove anything, just trying to discuss. It's a puzzle and we are trying to piece it together. Different books are saying different things, different people close to P & V are saying different things. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Reply #526 posted 05/28/17 12:36am

Vashtix

LBrent said:

Honestly, I don't understand what the big deal is about the exact date P & V got together.

Is there something I'm missing?

Cuz seriously, one brief relationship that wasn't even exclusive and apparently ended abruptly doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of P's 40 year career.

What exactly, besides the dates, are ya tryna prove?

That he was with several gals at one time? Probably. That he still had a fondness for them after the "romances" were over? Probably. Was P a scoundrel? Probably.

So?

confused

[Edited 5/27/17 18:44pm]

That relationship may have been brief but impactful.

Prince was not always the international icon, superstar he became.

The people around then were part of the ingredients that helped propel him into the stratosphere.

Purple Rain was about what you called a brief relationship. It means alot.

Back then, if you read articles from then and even out of both Prince and Vanity's mouths majority people thought he was gay due to his onstage persona and his dress on and off the stage.

Vanity being on the Rolling Stone cover busted that myth.

It seems silly to us now but back then it gave him validation as a lady's man to have this gorgeous, sexy woman all over him her hands in his pants.

Men started seeing him differently as did many in the general public.

This was part of crafting the image. It was before he was the huge star he became.

Then the movie which was about them. Remember Appolonia was playing Vanity.

So that brief time meant something.

[Edited 5/28/17 0:57am]

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Reply #527 posted 05/28/17 4:20am

LBrent

Vashtix said:

LBrent said:

Honestly, I don't understand what the big deal is about the exact date P & V got together.

Is there something I'm missing?

Cuz seriously, one brief relationship that wasn't even exclusive and apparently ended abruptly doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of P's 40 year career.

What exactly, besides the dates, are ya tryna prove?

That he was with several gals at one time? Probably. That he still had a fondness for them after the "romances" were over? Probably. Was P a scoundrel? Probably.

So?

confused

[Edited 5/27/17 18:44pm]

That relationship may have been brief but impactful.

Prince was not always the international icon, superstar he became.

The people around then were part of the ingredients that helped propel him into the stratosphere.

Purple Rain was about what you called a brief relationship. It means alot.

Back then, if you read articles from then and even out of both Prince and Vanity's mouths majority people thought he was gay due to his onstage persona and his dress on and off the stage.

Vanity being on the Rolling Stone cover busted that myth.

It seems silly to us now but back then it gave him validation as a lady's man to have this gorgeous, sexy woman all over him her hands in his pants.

Men started seeing him differently as did many in the general public.

This was part of crafting the image. It was before he was the huge star he became.

Then the movie which was about them. Remember Appolonia was playing Vanity.

So that brief time meant something.

[Edited 5/28/17 0:57am]

Um...I lived during this time period...and I wasn't a child. I remember it as a barely 20 year old (1981).

So, those of you focussed on the exact time period that P & V were together...in your eyes, you think that without this relationship and the subsequent drama and iconcic 1983 Rolling Stone cover, P's career wouldn't have ended up being...stratospheric..in the way that it did?

M'kay... confused eek

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Reply #528 posted 05/28/17 5:07am

kmama07

LBrent said:



Vashtix said:




LBrent said:


Honestly, I don't understand what the big deal is about the exact date P & V got together.



Is there something I'm missing?



Cuz seriously, one brief relationship that wasn't even exclusive and apparently ended abruptly doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of P's 40 year career.



What exactly, besides the dates, are ya tryna prove?



That he was with several gals at one time? Probably. That he still had a fondness for them after the "romances" were over? Probably. Was P a scoundrel? Probably.



So?



confused


[Edited 5/27/17 18:44pm]



That relationship may have been brief but impactful.


Prince was not always the international icon, superstar he became.


The people around then were part of the ingredients that helped propel him into the stratosphere.


Purple Rain was about what you called a brief relationship. It means alot.


Back then, if you read articles from then and even out of both Prince and Vanity's mouths majority people thought he was gay due to his onstage persona and his dress on and off the stage.


Vanity being on the Rolling Stone cover busted that myth.


It seems silly to us now but back then it gave him validation as a lady's man to have this gorgeous, sexy woman all over him her hands in his pants.


Men started seeing him differently as did many in the general public.


This was part of crafting the image. It was before he was the huge star he became.


Then the movie which was about them. Remember Appolonia was playing Vanity.


So that brief time meant something.



[Edited 5/28/17 0:57am]




Um...I lived during this time period...and I wasn't a child. I remember it as a barely 20 year old (1981).



So, those of you focussed on the exact time period that P & V were together...in your eyes, you think that without this relationship and the subsequent drama and iconcic 1983 Rolling Stone cover, P's career wouldn't have ended up being...stratospheric..in the way that it did?



M'kay... confused eek




An aside:
(So silly). The RS cover always bugged me...not the fact they were on the cover, but the angle with which Vanitys head is resting on P's shoulder. It looks like her head is growing out of his neck. I still have this magazine. Unfortunately years ago it was in a box that was almost destroyed by flood in the basement. I cleaned it up the best I could. It's all warped and kinda moldy but I kept it anyway.
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Reply #529 posted 05/28/17 5:17am

LBrent

kmama07 said:

LBrent said:

Um...I lived during this time period...and I wasn't a child. I remember it as a barely 20 year old (1981).

So, those of you focussed on the exact time period that P & V were together...in your eyes, you think that without this relationship and the subsequent drama and iconcic 1983 Rolling Stone cover, P's career wouldn't have ended up being...stratospheric..in the way that it did?

M'kay... confused eek

An aside: (So silly). The RS cover always bugged me...not the fact they were on the cover, but the angle with which Vanitys head is resting on P's shoulder. It looks like her head is growing out of his neck. I still have this magazine. Unfortunately years ago it was in a box that was almost destroyed by flood in the basement. I cleaned it up the best I could. It's all warped and kinda moldy but I kept it anyway.

What always bugged me is when they'd flip the negative and P's beuty mark would end up on the wrong side and you'd know it was him, but he didn't look quite right with the mark on the wrong side.

confused sad

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Reply #530 posted 05/28/17 8:22am

Vashtix

LBrent, I did not say without Vanity Prince would never be an icon as he became.

I said she was PART of the ingredients at that time. That means there were other parts and she played her role.

This brings me to an observation. There are so many women who talk and talk and talk about Prince and say this song was for me, that song was for me. Yet, we all know that Appolonia played the part of Vanity in the film Purple Rain. There were songs inspired by that season in his life. NO ONE wants to just say yep, Vanity was part of that time when Prince became a household word.

She definitely was- she was as much a part of it as Dez, Andre, Morris, etc. the reluctance at this time boggles my mind. It was a lifetime ago over 30 years. The effect of the Rolling Stone cover is real, the fact Wendy, NOT DEZ, was part of the movie band was real, the fact that Morris and Jerome and Billy Sparks and Jill were all there and the story was about THEM. ALL Of them and Vanity was part of that scene.

You cannot say she did not have a part. I never said he would not have rose to the icon status he became- Prince was a genius and I am not one to ever, ever discount his genius for anyone.

What I am saying is Vanity was a part of that magical time. The Triple Threat tour is now legendary. Vanity was part of the fabric of that time. How can you try to say she was not? The movie was about ALL Of them and that is why she is still talked about. The movie Purple Rain was their movie. It is what it is and Hahn can diss her , and your posts saying it was brief and meant nothing can go on but it is what it is-whether Prince ever spoke to her again in his life that span of the time they will be linked forever together due to the movie, RS cover and unfortunately now dying so close together.

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Reply #531 posted 05/28/17 9:10am

LBrent

Vashtix said:

LBrent, I did not say without Vanity Prince would never be an icon as he became.

I said she was PART of the ingredients at that time. That means there were other parts and she played her role.

This brings me to an observation. There are so many women who talk and talk and talk about Prince and say this song was for me, that song was for me. Yet, we all know that Appolonia played the part of Vanity in the film Purple Rain. There were songs inspired by that season in his life. NO ONE wants to just say yep, Vanity was part of that time when Prince became a household word.

She definitely was- she was as much a part of it as Dez, Andre, Morris, etc. the reluctance at this time boggles my mind. It was a lifetime ago over 30 years. The effect of the Rolling Stone cover is real, the fact Wendy, NOT DEZ, was part of the movie band was real, the fact that Morris and Jerome and Billy Sparks and Jill were all there and the story was about THEM. ALL Of them and Vanity was part of that scene.

You cannot say she did not have a part. I never said he would not have rose to the icon status he became- Prince was a genius and I am not one to ever, ever discount his genius for anyone.

What I am saying is Vanity was a part of that magical time. The Triple Threat tour is now legendary. Vanity was part of the fabric of that time. How can you try to say she was not? The movie was about ALL Of them and that is why she is still talked about. The movie Purple Rain was their movie. It is what it is and Hahn can diss her , and your posts saying it was brief and meant nothing can go on but it is what it is-whether Prince ever spoke to her again in his life that span of the time they will be linked forever together due to the movie, RS cover and unfortunately now dying so close together.

I absolutely have acknowledged V being there during that magical time. She certainly was and I never said she wasn't. I know that she was because I watched it all happen as a fan.

What I did say is that the relationship was brief, which it was, and that it wasn't exclusive, which it wasn't, and that it apparently ended abruptly, which it did.

Everyone who was a part of that time was there. Ok. But that's already canon. I don't understand the press to make what already is canon somehow more canonical.

You seem to think that I'm discounting V or somehow not giving her her just due. I'm actually deliberately being mild with her because I like her and she's also passed and I'm trying to be respectful. Trust me, if I didn't like her I wouldn't be gentle in saying so or feel obligated to be respectful.

Did P & V keep in touch over the years? I have no idea. After I lost track of her around Action Jackson I really wasn't checking for her unless she popped up unexpectedly somewhere on TV or something, then I was pleasantly surprised and that was about it.

I was saddened about her passing. Afterwards, I heard P had said a few intimate words in concert about her and I thought that was very nice. I wasn't surprised or shocked or angry. Why would I be? I had always liked her from way back in the day and still have a purple fondnes for her.

But that's about as much interest as I can muster. I wished her well when she moved on and never hated her. I wish her peaceful rest now.

What more do you think I owe her for cryin out loud?

confused

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Reply #532 posted 05/28/17 9:31am

Vashtix

LBrent said:

Vashtix said:

LBrent, I did not say without Vanity Prince would never be an icon as he became.

I said she was PART of the ingredients at that time. That means there were other parts and she played her role.

This brings me to an observation. There are so many women who talk and talk and talk about Prince and say this song was for me, that song was for me. Yet, we all know that Appolonia played the part of Vanity in the film Purple Rain. There were songs inspired by that season in his life. NO ONE wants to just say yep, Vanity was part of that time when Prince became a household word.

She definitely was- she was as much a part of it as Dez, Andre, Morris, etc. the reluctance at this time boggles my mind. It was a lifetime ago over 30 years. The effect of the Rolling Stone cover is real, the fact Wendy, NOT DEZ, was part of the movie band was real, the fact that Morris and Jerome and Billy Sparks and Jill were all there and the story was about THEM. ALL Of them and Vanity was part of that scene.

You cannot say she did not have a part. I never said he would not have rose to the icon status he became- Prince was a genius and I am not one to ever, ever discount his genius for anyone.

What I am saying is Vanity was a part of that magical time. The Triple Threat tour is now legendary. Vanity was part of the fabric of that time. How can you try to say she was not? The movie was about ALL Of them and that is why she is still talked about. The movie Purple Rain was their movie. It is what it is and Hahn can diss her , and your posts saying it was brief and meant nothing can go on but it is what it is-whether Prince ever spoke to her again in his life that span of the time they will be linked forever together due to the movie, RS cover and unfortunately now dying so close together.

I absolutely have acknowledged V being there during that magical time. She certainly was and I never said she wasn't. I know that she was because I watched it all happen as a fan.

What I did say is that the relationship was brief, which it was, and that it wasn't exclusive, which it wasn't, and that it apparently ended abruptly, which it did.

Everyone who was a part of that time was there. Ok. But that's already canon. I don't understand the press to make what already is canon somehow more canonical.

You seem to think that I'm discounting V or somehow not giving her her just due. I'm actually deliberately being mild with her because I like her and she's also passed and I'm trying to be respectful. Trust me, if I didn't like her I wouldn't be gentle in saying so or feel obligated to be respectful.

Did P & V keep in touch over the years? I have no idea. After I lost track of her around Action Jackson I really wasn't checking for her unless she popped up unexpectedly somewhere on TV or something, then I was pleasantly surprised and that was about it.

I was saddened about her passing. Afterwards, I heard P had said a few intimate words in concert about her and I thought that was very nice. I wasn't surprised or shocked or angry. Why would I be? I had always liked her from way back in the day and still have a purple fondnes for her.

But that's about as much interest as I can muster. I wished her well when she moved on and never hated her. I wish her peaceful rest now.

What more do you think I owe her for cryin out loud?

confused

I was responding to the quote below I was responding to

Cuz seriously, one brief relationship that wasn't even exclusive and apparently ended abruptly doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of P's 40 year career.

Prince had a grand career but Purple Rain which was about a certain time in Prince's life and thrust him into superstar status. That whole cre,w The Revolution, The Time, Chick, First Ave were all part of that and to me it was what made that time magical, including Vanity. You don't owe her anything but to acknowledge her part in that no matter how brief. In the grander scheme that movie ushered in the decades of genius we enjoyed. I will be bold and say he never ever had the same commercial success again with any of the other incarnations and crews he put together.
Again you owe her nothing but acknowledgment of her part in that time.

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Reply #533 posted 05/28/17 10:01am

Vashtix

Chapter 19 Dreams Come True Pages, 207-221

Prince is ready to make his dream to make a movie real

*

Prince approaches Warner Bros. using not resigning with them as leverage to get the movie deal

*

Alan Leeds uproots his family, moves to Minneapolis becoming friend, manager , and gofer to Prince

*

Prince begins writing songs for the movie

*

Wendy Melvoin replaces Dez Dickerson

*

Albert Magnoli becomes writer-Director replacing William Blinn

*

The Revolution makes its debut August 3, 1983 at First Avenue, first time Purple Rain played in public

*

Prince meets Susannah Melvoin

*

Morris Day and Vanity both are frustrated and soured as puppet band leaders turn to substances to cope

*

The Time loses important band members Terry Lewis and Jimmy Harris when they are fired by Prince, Monte Moir and Jellybean Johnson quit

*

Vanity is “fired” from the movie and replaced by Patricia Kotero, who Prince names Appolonia

*

Shooting for the movie begins in Minneapolis, November 1983

*

Prince completes work on 3 albums ( Sheila E.,Appolonia 6’,The Time)

*

When Doves Cry is released May 1984 with no baseline (which was unheard of at that time) skyrockets to #1 on pop charts

*

Prince maintains harem lifestyle juggling Susannah, Jill, Sheila E. and others

*

June 7 1984 Prince turns 26, throws a Birthday party at First Avenue inviting friends, family and others

*

Purple Rain soundtrack and movie is released making Prince into an international superstar

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Reply #534 posted 05/28/17 10:19am

LBrent


Vashtix said:

I was responding to the quote below I was responding to

LBrent said:

Cuz seriously, one brief relationship that wasn't even exclusive and apparently ended abruptly doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of P's 40 year career.

Prince had a grand career but Purple Rain which was about a certain time in Prince's life and thrust him into superstar status. That whole crew, The Revolution, The Time, Chick, First Ave were all part of that and to me it was what made that time magical, including Vanity. You don't owe her anything but to acknowledge her part in that no matter how brief. In the grander scheme that movie ushered in the decades of genius we enjoyed. I will be bold and say he never ever had the same commercial success again with any of the other incarnations and crews he put together.
Again you owe her nothing but acknowledgment of her part in that time.

Well I certainly do acknowledge her...all of them.

But it couldn't have succeeded without P either...even with all the rest of them...none of it would've turned out the way it did without him.

Right?

confused

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Reply #535 posted 05/28/17 11:43am

Vashtix

LBrent said:


Vashtix said:

I was responding to the quote below I was responding to

Prince had a grand career but Purple Rain which was about a certain time in Prince's life and thrust him into superstar status. That whole crew, The Revolution, The Time, Chick, First Ave were all part of that and to me it was what made that time magical, including Vanity. You don't owe her anything but to acknowledge her part in that no matter how brief. In the grander scheme that movie ushered in the decades of genius we enjoyed. I will be bold and say he never ever had the same commercial success again with any of the other incarnations and crews he put together.
Again you owe her nothing but acknowledgment of her part in that time.

Well I certainly do acknowledge her...all of them.

But it couldn't have succeeded without P either...even with all the rest of them...none of it would've turned out the way it did without him.

Right?

confused

He was the master mind. He is the chef I should say and he knew the right ingredients. None of it would have existed without his genius, He was special.

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Reply #536 posted 05/28/17 12:26pm

LBrent

Vashtix said:

LBrent said:

Well I certainly do acknowledge her...all of them.

But it couldn't have succeeded without P either...even with all the rest of them...none of it would've turned out the way it did without him.

Right?

confused

He was the master mind. He is the chef I should say and he knew the right ingredients. None of it would have existed without his genius, He was special.

Exactly.

So, I'm still trying to figure out why we're even having this discussion as though there were a disagreement.

If P was the chef, as you said, and he created the recipe, assembled/mixed the ingredients, then some would argue that a parsnip is simply a parsnip...essential to the recipe only in the sense that it's on the list...doesn't matter what garden it originated in.

While V was in the Rolling Stone picture and her participation is canon, and the picture became iconic...was it iconic specifically due to V accompanying P instead of another beautiful purple female?

What if Jill had done the photoshoot instead? Or Kim Upsher?

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Reply #537 posted 05/28/17 1:31pm

luvgirl

LBrent said:

Honestly, I don't understand what the big deal is about the exact date P & V got together.



Is there something I'm missing?



Cuz seriously, one brief relationship that wasn't even exclusive and apparently ended abruptly doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of P's 40 year career.



What exactly, besides the dates, are ya tryna prove?



That he was with several gals at one time? Probably. That he still had a fondness for them after the "romances" were over? Probably. Was P a scoundrel? Probably.



So?



confused

[Edited 5/27/17 18:44pm]



Vanity didn't leave a lasting impression on you the way Prince did, and that's okay. I think the reason for the concern with the dates is due to the vast contrast between what Prince has said and what others have said that doesn't add up about them. I guess if you're not a huge fan of hers it's not gonna be interesting. I wasn't an adult, and all of eleven years old, but I remember having both Prince and Vanity's poster on my wall. I think her impact was different in the eyes of many depending on what neck of the woods you hail from (not necessarily minority, my husband is not in the minority and he remembers having a crush on her along with Kelly Labroc from Weird Science, lol)

After LRC and Nasty Girl Dropped, both Prince and Vanity stoled the hearts of everyone in my community. When the buzz were going around that they were a real couple, and we heard that they were gonna do a movie together about their lives, they galvanized the whole neighborhood. My friends and I were on teeter-hooks. Lol. We hadn't really experienced anyone like them, so everyone was excited about this new and beautiful couple because finally we got to see a couple that were relatable and interesting. Vanity Was the crush of all the boys and Prince had the hearts of all the girls. You can just imagine how devastated we were when they broke up and we heard that Vanity was not going to be in Purple Rain anymore. It's funny because I didn't even realize until coming on the Org that The Last Dragon wasn't a blockbuster movie. To me it was (almost) as huge as Purple Rain. Vanity definitely enhanced the Prince experience for me and many of the little girls in my neighborhood, just like the Revolution's enhanced it for others. I think that's why she still matters in the scheme of things to some of us. I followed her all the way up until my teenage years. A few years ago I was at Great Adventures and I saw a flyer that I missed her preaching. It was like I was eleven all over again. I was so disappointed, Lol. I went home and did research on her, and found out how she turned her life around and I was so proud of her. Prince was unsurmountable. He was a genius and we couldn't help but be life long fans of his, but I'm not surprised that Vanity, (although not as frantically) has tagged along in some of our hearts as well.
[Edited 5/28/17 14:02pm]
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Reply #538 posted 05/28/17 2:45pm

206Michelle

777-9311 was Dez Dickerson's phone number. Why is that so hilarious to me? (I think it's funny to me because my thought is Why the f*** would The Time use Dez's phone number as the title of their song? It's so absurd that it's funny.) I'm sure it was a pain in the ass for Dez.

Live 4 Love ~ Love is God, God is love, Girls and boys love God above
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Reply #539 posted 05/28/17 2:48pm

206Michelle

I love "How Come U Don't Call Me Anymore." I wonder why Prince didn't put it on the 1999 album. My best guess is that he didn't put HCUDCM on the album because it didn't really fit with the other material. What do others think?

Live 4 Love ~ Love is God, God is love, Girls and boys love God above
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