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Reply #360 posted 05/15/17 9:58am

PennyPurple

avatar

LBrent said:

PennyPurple said:

At this point in the book, what are everyone's feelings about the treatment Andre is starting to get?

I know there are folks who will argue that P was being overly controlling in the case of many of his former associates...and I'm not saying that his decisions were right, but I'd like to give another perspective...

Imagine that you're not P, but you're a gifted chef.

You have a burning desire to cook and a incredible talent for creating new flavours that entice and tantalize the palate. You grew up with others who also were excellent cooks and you care about them, you might even be a bit jealous of a few of their random one off recipes...but you persue what you feel is your higher calling as a world class chef.

You are driven and as you see yourself gaining more and more success and traction in the industry, you have already decided to bring along your talented freinds...but they also have dreams and aspirations. And they are talented. But not as talented as you are. So you try to get them to wait. To not persue their talent further...yet.

Because you know that of the group, although each of the others has one or two qualities of success, you are the one who possesses all of the needed qualities to propel yourself into the stratosphere. And you intend on taking care of them and making sure you bring them with you, but they think they can do it faster without you.

I think P was toiling under the belief not that he WAS better than the rest, but that he KNEW better than the rest. I think if it had been possible to get everyone to stfu and simply blindly follow him like soldiers that would've been his dream.

Is that fair and reasonable?

Humans deserve to like their own destiny and the freedom of free will to decide for themselves.

But what if you look at your life today and crossroads where you went left and going right would've saved time, energy and heartache? And what if someone had tried to direct you in what now you know would've been a better direction, would you go back and do it all differently given the opportunity?

I think P didn't like acknowledging that sometimes folks would rather fail by their own hand than succeed under the hand of someone else. He felt betrayed by wasted potential and the idea that they didn't trust him to take them singlehandedly through the parted Red Sea like Moses to the Promised Land.

He had a bit of a Messiah Complex.

lol

Heck, he even is known for doing the classic "messiah pose"; arms outstretched as it to say "It's me, I'm here, I'm the one!"

wink

[Edited 5/15/17 7:59am]

But, where would've he been without Andre and Andre's family? They helped him out tremendously.

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Reply #361 posted 05/15/17 10:42am

LBrent

PennyPurple said:

LBrent said:

I know there are folks who will argue that P was being overly controlling in the case of many of his former associates...and I'm not saying that his decisions were right, but I'd like to give another perspective...

Imagine that you're not P, but you're a gifted chef.

You have a burning desire to cook and a incredible talent for creating new flavours that entice and tantalize the palate. You grew up with others who also were excellent cooks and you care about them, you might even be a bit jealous of a few of their random one off recipes...but you persue what you feel is your higher calling as a world class chef.

You are driven and as you see yourself gaining more and more success and traction in the industry, you have already decided to bring along your talented freinds...but they also have dreams and aspirations. And they are talented. But not as talented as you are. So you try to get them to wait. To not persue their talent further...yet.

Because you know that of the group, although each of the others has one or two qualities of success, you are the one who possesses all of the needed qualities to propel yourself into the stratosphere. And you intend on taking care of them and making sure you bring them with you, but they think they can do it faster without you.

I think P was toiling under the belief not that he WAS better than the rest, but that he KNEW better than the rest. I think if it had been possible to get everyone to stfu and simply blindly follow him like soldiers that would've been his dream.

Is that fair and reasonable?

Humans deserve to like their own destiny and the freedom of free will to decide for themselves.

But what if you look at your life today and crossroads where you went left and going right would've saved time, energy and heartache? And what if someone had tried to direct you in what now you know would've been a better direction, would you go back and do it all differently given the opportunity?

I think P didn't like acknowledging that sometimes folks would rather fail by their own hand than succeed under the hand of someone else. He felt betrayed by wasted potential and the idea that they didn't trust him to take them singlehandedly through the parted Red Sea like Moses to the Promised Land.

He had a bit of a Messiah Complex.

lol

Heck, he even is known for doing the classic "messiah pose"; arms outstretched as it to say "It's me, I'm here, I'm the one!"

wink

[Edited 5/15/17 7:59am]

But, where would've he been without Andre and Andre's family? They helped him out tremendously.

That question misses the point I tried to make.

Yes, they were a great asset to him, many in his past were. And I'm sure he knew that, but trying to look into P's head a bit, I think that was all great and well and good and appreciated which is why I think he wanted everyone to stfu/follow his lead so he could show his appreciation by what he might've seen as "rescuing them" by "making them successful".

He thought he knew better than they did how to get it done. When you feel you know better and folks don't simply "let you get it done" you can feel as if they don't trust your skill/judgement. Frankly, if you think you know the best way to get something done, anyone who tries to do things another way pisses you off. And if their way does work out, it feels like a betrayal.

That doesn't mean that folks who think they know better should take over and ignore other folks' desire to try things their own way, of course. But it can be maddening to be someone who "knows" a better way and watch folks who'd rather fail than follow your way.

It's almost like ya wanna tie them up, gag them, do it your way then hand them the success to enjoy.

It hurts to watch folks eff up when you feel as if your way would've been better.

[Edited 5/15/17 10:53am]

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Reply #362 posted 05/15/17 11:03am

LauraTiebert

AlexHahn said:

Thank you guys for the comments. I believe we are off Rick James now, but I did want to mention that if I had to choose a favorite chapter for the book from a writing perspective this was it. Laura Tiebert was absolutely instrumental in the drafting of this chapter. However, it was also, perhaps even more so than any other chapter, a product of editing and collaboration. I think we probably exchanged this chapter back and forth about 20 times, adding and editing throughout. I would say this chapter took about 300 hours of editing and drafting between the two of us, although Laura could better say whether I am exaggerating. Point being it was the most fun you can have as a writer, and the topic of Rick James and this rivalry fascinated us, particularly because it was such a pivotal point in Prince's career.

YES! Alex does not exaggerate. Hours and hours spent on this chapter, and it could not have been more fun. As exasperating as P.'s lack of any sort of reliable public statements can be to a writer, Alex and I had a ridiculous amount of fun going back and forth, piecing things together. Side note: Paul Natkin, whose photos are in our book, was at the Chicago shows where P. opened for Rick James, and described it along these lines: All the other photographers cleared out to the bar to get a beer, but at that point in Paul's career, he'd learned to always photograph the opening act, as they might become famous one day. Out comes this little guy wearing women's underwear and playing great guitar. Paul said that P. had star power even then, and "a showbiz aura that couldn't be stopped."

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Reply #363 posted 05/15/17 11:07am

LauraTiebert

LBrent said:

PennyPurple said:

But, where would've he been without Andre and Andre's family? They helped him out tremendously.

That question misses the point I tried to make.

Yes, they were a great asset to him, many in his past were. And I'm sure he knew that, but trying to look into P's head a bit, I think that was all great and well and good and appreciated which is why I think he wanted everyone to stfu/follow his lead so he could show his appreciation by what he might've seen as "rescuing them" by "making them successful".

He thought he knew better than they did how to get it done. When you feel you know better and folks don't simply "let you get it done" you can feel as if they don't trust your skill/judgement. Frankly, if you think you know the best way to get something done, anyone who tries to do things another way pisses you off. And if their way does work out, it feels like a betrayal.

That doesn't mean that folks who think they know better should take over and ignore other folks' desire to try things their own way, of course. But it can be maddening to be someone who "knows" a better way and watch folks who'd rather fail than follow your way.

It's almost like ya wanna tie them up, gag them, do it your way then hand them the success to enjoy.

It hurts to watch folks eff up when you feel as if your way would've been better.

[Edited 5/15/17 10:53am]

I get this completely. I think from the beginning, P. knew what he was - a rock star. And remember, creative geniuses are not always nice guys. Think Steve Jobs, Frank Lloyd Wright. Not nice guys to be around, but they accomplished amazing things in their fields

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Reply #364 posted 05/15/17 11:37am

LBrent

LauraTiebert said:

LBrent said:

That question misses the point I tried to make.

Yes, they were a great asset to him, many in his past were. And I'm sure he knew that, but trying to look into P's head a bit, I think that was all great and well and good and appreciated which is why I think he wanted everyone to stfu/follow his lead so he could show his appreciation by what he might've seen as "rescuing them" by "making them successful".

He thought he knew better than they did how to get it done. When you feel you know better and folks don't simply "let you get it done" you can feel as if they don't trust your skill/judgement. Frankly, if you think you know the best way to get something done, anyone who tries to do things another way pisses you off. And if their way does work out, it feels like a betrayal.

That doesn't mean that folks who think they know better should take over and ignore other folks' desire to try things their own way, of course. But it can be maddening to be someone who "knows" a better way and watch folks who'd rather fail than follow your way.

It's almost like ya wanna tie them up, gag them, do it your way then hand them the success to enjoy.

It hurts to watch folks eff up when you feel as if your way would've been better.

[Edited 5/15/17 10:53am]

I get this completely. I think from the beginning, P. knew what he was - a rock star. And remember, creative geniuses are not always nice guys. Think Steve Jobs, Frank Lloyd Wright. Not nice guys to be around, but they accomplished amazing things in their fields

Honestly, in the moment I don't think he felt as if he was being mean or rude or a douche. WE can see it now, after the fact and I'm sure he probably could see it that way muuuuuch later...and of course, the folks immediately involved must've been ready to strangle him, but...

I think he was so driven in the moment that all he could see was getting it done and anything/anyone in the path to getting it done was an obstacle to be removed so he could get on with things. Plus, he wasn't asking more out of anyone else than what he was already giving so their human complaining read as weak/whining/ungrateful complaining.

Of course when folks get treated that way, they rebel and their feelings get hurt, but I think that collateral damage was simply a byproduct, not his goal.

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Reply #365 posted 05/15/17 2:47pm

LauraTiebert

LBrent said:

LauraTiebert said:

I get this completely. I think from the beginning, P. knew what he was - a rock star. And remember, creative geniuses are not always nice guys. Think Steve Jobs, Frank Lloyd Wright. Not nice guys to be around, but they accomplished amazing things in their fields

Honestly, in the moment I don't think he felt as if he was being mean or rude or a douche. WE can see it now, after the fact and I'm sure he probably could see it that way muuuuuch later...and of course, the folks immediately involved must've been ready to strangle him, but...

I think he was so driven in the moment that all he could see was getting it done and anything/anyone in the path to getting it done was an obstacle to be removed so he could get on with things. Plus, he wasn't asking more out of anyone else than what he was already giving so their human complaining read as weak/whining/ungrateful complaining.

Of course when folks get treated that way, they rebel and their feelings get hurt, but I think that collateral damage was simply a byproduct, not his goal.

Yes, exactly. It's that single-minded focus that wound up creating collateral damage. From other folks' POV, it could be pretty brutal. I tend to be just the opposite, highly empathetic (to a fault), so this behavior was hard to stomach!!

[Edited 5/15/17 15:26pm]

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Reply #366 posted 05/15/17 4:27pm

PennyPurple

avatar

Well, let's skip ahead just a tad, since we are talking about Prince & Andre's relationship.

.

"Do Me Baby".... it is said that this was Andre's song. He wrote it on a paper bag and left it in his room. Prince and he worked on it, and even did a demo together. Prince took it as his own, never giving Andre credit, just like on the song "Uptown".

.

I would think that Prince and Andre were pretty good friends, if not best friends. So again, how could Prince do this to Andre, when Andre and his family did so much for Prince?

.

Now I understand that Andre can't ride on Prince's coat tails forever but dang that's pretty dirty that Prince could do something like that to him. Don't you think?

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Reply #367 posted 05/15/17 4:50pm

bsprout

I was shocked to read this about 'Do Me Baby.' And it wouldn't be the first time Prince took songwriting credit, to varying degrees. Andre seemed to take it
in stride, despite everything.
LBrent, your hypothesis about Prince's behavior makes sense to me, given Prince's narcissistic tendencies, even though it is hard to comprehend his ruthless actions at times.
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Reply #368 posted 05/15/17 4:52pm

bsprout

LauraTiebert said:



AlexHahn said:


Thank you guys for the comments. I believe we are off Rick James now, but I did want to mention that if I had to choose a favorite chapter for the book from a writing perspective this was it. Laura Tiebert was absolutely instrumental in the drafting of this chapter. However, it was also, perhaps even more so than any other chapter, a product of editing and collaboration. I think we probably exchanged this chapter back and forth about 20 times, adding and editing throughout. I would say this chapter took about 300 hours of editing and drafting between the two of us, although Laura could better say whether I am exaggerating. Point being it was the most fun you can have as a writer, and the topic of Rick James and this rivalry fascinated us, particularly because it was such a pivotal point in Prince's career.





YES! Alex does not exaggerate. Hours and hours spent on this chapter, and it could not have been more fun. As exasperating as P.'s lack of any sort of reliable public statements can be to a writer, Alex and I had a ridiculous amount of fun going back and forth, piecing things together. Side note: Paul Natkin, whose photos are in our book, was at the Chicago shows where P. opened for Rick James, and described it along these lines: All the other photographers cleared out to the bar to get a beer, but at that point in Paul's career, he'd learned to always photograph the opening act, as they might become famous one day. Out comes this little guy wearing women's underwear and playing great guitar. Paul said that P. had star power even then, and "a showbiz aura that couldn't be stopped."




I enjoy reading these behind-the-scenes anecdotes!
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Reply #369 posted 05/15/17 6:02pm

gandorb

bsprout said:

I was shocked to read this about 'Do Me Baby.' And it wouldn't be the first time Prince took songwriting credit, to varying degrees. Andre seemed to take it in stride, despite everything. LBrent, your hypothesis about Prince's behavior makes sense to me, given Prince's narcissistic tendencies, even though it is hard to comprehend his ruthless actions at times.

Some of Prince's contradictory behavior has been hard

to piece together as a coherent whole. At times kind behind

the scenes and other times ruthless. What is missing from

these accounts is Prince's perspective,

leaving one to hypothesize about what exactly happened

and why. I do not intend to diagnose Prince

here but do want to point out a few things

that may contribute to how complicated he was,

as illustrated by his relationships with Andre and others

described in this book and elsewhere. He seemed to use

narcissistic defenses (exploitative of others when it served his

musical purpose and at times demeaning to others who

he perceived as possible threats such as Andre). Nonetheless,

unlike persons with Narcissistic Personalty Disorder, he

seemed to be in touch with feelings of abandonment

and profound loneliness(at their extreme often linked to

Borderline Personality Disorder). I am not implying that

Prince had either disorder, but instead that his traits were

at odds with each other and possibly led to very different

types of behavior. In other words, he seemed to need to

act as if he was superior to others (not just musically)

yet craved connection that his fears of abandonment

and/or his arrogance made it difficult for him to achieve.

It is hard to know if his being so dismissive of

Andre was solely due to exploitation and/or

his tendency to abandon all those with whom he might

become potentially close before they abandon him

(musically and/or personally).

[Edited 5/15/17 19:00pm]

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Reply #370 posted 05/15/17 7:05pm

kmama07

gandorb said:



bsprout said:


I was shocked to read this about 'Do Me Baby.' And it wouldn't be the first time Prince took songwriting credit, to varying degrees. Andre seemed to take it in stride, despite everything. LBrent, your hypothesis about Prince's behavior makes sense to me, given Prince's narcissistic tendencies, even though it is hard to comprehend his ruthless actions at times.

Some of Prince's contradictory behavior has been hard


to piece together as a coherent whole. At times kind behind


the scenes and other times ruthless. What is missing from


these accounts is Prince's perspective,


leaving one to hypothesize about what exactly happened


and why. I do not intend to diagnose Prince


here but do want to point out a few things


that may contribute to how complicated he was,


as illustrated by his relationships with Andre and others


described in this book and elsewhere. He seemed to use


narcissistic defenses (exploitative of others when it served his


musical purpose and at times demeaning to others who


he perceived as possible threats such as Andre). Nonetheless,


unlike persons with Narcissistic Personalty Disorder, he


seemed to be in touch with feelings of abandonment


and profound loneliness(at their extreme often linked to


Borderline Personality Disorder). I am not implying that


Prince had either disorder, but instead that his traits were


at odds with each other and possibly led to very different


types of behavior. In other words, he seemed to need to


act as if he was superior to others (not just musically)


yet craved connection that his fears of abandonment


and/or his arrogance made it difficult for him to achieve.


It is hard to know if his being so dismissive of


Andre was solely due to exploitation and/or


his tendency to abandon all those with whom he might


become potentially close before they abandon him


(musically and/or personally).

[Edited 5/15/17 19:00pm]


This sums it up for me.
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Reply #371 posted 05/15/17 7:29pm

LBrent

kmama07 said:

gandorb said:

Some of Prince's contradictory behavior has been hard

to piece together as a coherent whole. At times kind behind

the scenes and other times ruthless. What is missing from

these accounts is Prince's perspective,

leaving one to hypothesize about what exactly happened

and why. I do not intend to diagnose Prince

here but do want to point out a few things

that may contribute to how complicated he was,

as illustrated by his relationships with Andre and others

described in this book and elsewhere. He seemed to use

narcissistic defenses (exploitative of others when it served his

musical purpose and at times demeaning to others who

he perceived as possible threats such as Andre). Nonetheless,

unlike persons with Narcissistic Personalty Disorder, he

seemed to be in touch with feelings of abandonment

and profound loneliness(at their extreme often linked to

Borderline Personality Disorder). I am not implying that

Prince had either disorder, but instead that his traits were

at odds with each other and possibly led to very different

types of behavior. In other words, he seemed to need to

act as if he was superior to others (not just musically)

yet craved connection that his fears of abandonment

and/or his arrogance made it difficult for him to achieve.

It is hard to know if his being so dismissive of

Andre was solely due to exploitation and/or

his tendency to abandon all those with whom he might

become potentially close before they abandon him

(musically and/or personally).

[Edited 5/15/17 19:00pm]

This sums it up for me.

I agree he did approach/avoid and that can be a very confusing message for the folks who are the target of these behaviours, but I think that as he was doing these things HE wasn't always (probably rarely) in touch with what the other person was experiencing as a result of his behaviour.

I see folks comment on P's behaviour in a way that leads me to feel that they think the OUTCOME of P's treatment of other people was premeditated to be callous. I don't think so.

I think he deliberately many times acted in a callous way, but I don't think he mostly cnsidered that his actions would hurt the other person. I think he did things to deliberately protect/benefit himself, not taking other people's feelings into consideration.

I think P would've wanted the folks in his life to be completely compliant and follow his directions/ideas and not challenge him except for in ways he found acceptable, stop arguing when he was done arguing, be talented but not too talented as to show him up, motivated but not to the point of independant thinking...basically flesh covered ROBOTS with the capability to love him, accompany him, protect him, but that's unrealistic of course.

Yet, I also think folks who were too compliant...the fantasy wasn't as appealing as the reality so he was never truly satisfied.

Don't forget P gave Andre the song Dance Electric...then remade it himself...Typical P move. Wanting to be generous, but then deciding he could do it better himself. [sigh]

Complicated to say the least. confused lol

[Edited 5/15/17 19:43pm]

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Reply #372 posted 05/15/17 7:40pm

gandorb

LBrent said:

kmama07 said:

gandorb said: This sums it up for me.

I agree he did approah/avoid and that can be a very confusing message for the folks who are the target of these behaviours, but I think that as he was doing these things HE wasn't always (probably rarely) in touch with what the other person was experiencing as a result of his behaviour.

I see folks comment on P's behaviour in a way that leads me to feels that they think the OUTCOME of P's treatment of other people was premeditated to be callous. I don't think so.

I think he deliberately many times acted in a callous way, but I don't think he mostly cnsidered that his actions would hurt the other person. I think he did things to deliberately protect/benefit himself, not taking other people's feelings into consideration.

I think P would've wanted the folks in his life to be completely compliant and follow his directions/ideas and not challenge him except for in ways he found acceptable, stop arguing when he was done arguing, be talented but not too talented as to show him up, motivated but not to the point of independant thinking...basically flesh covered ROBOTS with the capability to love him, accompany him, protect him, but that's unrealistic of course.

Yet, I also think folks who were too compliant...the fantasy wasn't as appealing as the reality so he was never truly satisfied.

Don't forget P gave Andre the song Dance Electric...then remade it himself...Typical P move. Wanting to be generous, but then deciding he could do it better himself. [sigh]

Complicated to say the least. confused lol

I agree with you about his lack of awareness, as well as your comments earlier. The whole notion of defense is that it is an automatic way a person deals with stress that they are often unaware of.

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Reply #373 posted 05/15/17 7:44pm

PennyPurple

avatar

gandorb said:

Some of Prince's contradictory behavior has been hard

to piece together as a coherent whole. At times kind behind

the scenes and other times ruthless. What is missing from

these accounts is Prince's perspective,

leaving one to hypothesize about what exactly happened

and why. I do not intend to diagnose Prince

here but do want to point out a few things

that may contribute to how complicated he was,

as illustrated by his relationships with Andre and others

described in this book and elsewhere. He seemed to use

narcissistic defenses (exploitative of others when it served his

musical purpose and at times demeaning to others who

he perceived as possible threats such as Andre). Nonetheless,

unlike persons with Narcissistic Personalty Disorder, he

seemed to be in touch with feelings of abandonment

and profound loneliness(at their extreme often linked to

Borderline Personality Disorder). I am not implying that

Prince had either disorder, but instead that his traits were

at odds with each other and possibly led to very different

types of behavior. In other words, he seemed to need to

act as if he was superior to others (not just musically)

yet craved connection that his fears of abandonment

and/or his arrogance made it difficult for him to achieve.

It is hard to know if his being so dismissive of

Andre was solely due to exploitation and/or

his tendency to abandon all those with whom he might

become potentially close before they abandon him

(musically and/or personally).

[Edited 5/15/17 19:00pm]

I agree with that in bold. But I would also think that Andre of all people who had been with him thru thick and thin, would've been different.

.

Does anybody know if Prince reached out to Andre in his final months? I know people have said he was reaching out to several to make amends. I wonder if Andre was one of them? Even to this day, I don't think Andre has said anything too negative towards Prince, has he?

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Reply #374 posted 05/15/17 7:47pm

LBrent

gandorb said:

LBrent said:

I agree he did approah/avoid and that can be a very confusing message for the folks who are the target of these behaviours, but I think that as he was doing these things HE wasn't always (probably rarely) in touch with what the other person was experiencing as a result of his behaviour.

I see folks comment on P's behaviour in a way that leads me to feels that they think the OUTCOME of P's treatment of other people was premeditated to be callous. I don't think so.

I think he deliberately many times acted in a callous way, but I don't think he mostly cnsidered that his actions would hurt the other person. I think he did things to deliberately protect/benefit himself, not taking other people's feelings into consideration.

I think P would've wanted the folks in his life to be completely compliant and follow his directions/ideas and not challenge him except for in ways he found acceptable, stop arguing when he was done arguing, be talented but not too talented as to show him up, motivated but not to the point of independant thinking...basically flesh covered ROBOTS with the capability to love him, accompany him, protect him, but that's unrealistic of course.

Yet, I also think folks who were too compliant...the fantasy wasn't as appealing as the reality so he was never truly satisfied.

Don't forget P gave Andre the song Dance Electric...then remade it himself...Typical P move. Wanting to be generous, but then deciding he could do it better himself. [sigh]

Complicated to say the least. confused lol

I agree with you about his lack of awareness, as well as your comments earlier. The whole notion of defense is that it is an automatic way a person deals with stress that they are often unaware of.

Exactly!

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Reply #375 posted 05/15/17 7:55pm

PennyPurple

avatar

Who wants to summarize chapter 13?

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Reply #376 posted 05/15/17 8:27pm

gandorb

PennyPurple said:

Who wants to summarize chapter 13?

I am going to be especially busy the next 36 hours so chapter 13 isn't a good match for me, but I'll commit to chapter 14 if that's okay?

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Reply #377 posted 05/15/17 8:38pm

PennyPurple

avatar

gandorb said:

PennyPurple said:

Who wants to summarize chapter 13?

I am going to be especially busy the next 36 hours so chapter 13 isn't a good match for me, but I'll commit to chapter 14 if that's okay?

Perfect. smile

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Reply #378 posted 05/15/17 8:52pm

Flirt1

PennyPurple said:

Well, let's skip ahead just a tad, since we are talking about Prince & Andre's relationship.


.


"Do Me Baby".... it is said that this was Andre's song. He wrote it on a paper bag and left it in his room. Prince and he worked on it, and even did a demo together. Prince took it as his own, never giving Andre credit, just like on the song "Uptown".


.


I would think that Prince and Andre were pretty good friends, if not best friends. So again, how could Prince do this to Andre, when Andre and his family did so much for Prince?


.


Now I understand that Andre can't ride on Prince's coat tails forever but dang that's pretty dirty that Prince could do something like that to him. Don't you think?


I think Andre has been unbelievably gracious and diplomatic in his comments in interviews.
I think Prince considered Andre a threat because, to be honest, Andre was tall and incredibly handsome.
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Reply #379 posted 05/15/17 8:55pm

PennyPurple

avatar

Flirt1 said:

PennyPurple said:

Well, let's skip ahead just a tad, since we are talking about Prince & Andre's relationship.

.

"Do Me Baby".... it is said that this was Andre's song. He wrote it on a paper bag and left it in his room. Prince and he worked on it, and even did a demo together. Prince took it as his own, never giving Andre credit, just like on the song "Uptown".

.

I would think that Prince and Andre were pretty good friends, if not best friends. So again, how could Prince do this to Andre, when Andre and his family did so much for Prince?

.

Now I understand that Andre can't ride on Prince's coat tails forever but dang that's pretty dirty that Prince could do something like that to him. Don't you think?

I think Andre has been unbelievably gracious and diplomatic in his comments in interviews. I think Prince considered Andre a threat because, to be honest, Andre was tall and incredibly handsome.

Yes, he has been very respectful.

.

Prince was just as handsome and sexy, if not more so than Andre. biggrin

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Reply #380 posted 05/15/17 8:56pm

Misslink88

LBrent said:

I agree he did approach/avoid and that can be a very confusing message for the folks who are the target of these behaviours, but I think that as he was doing these things HE wasn't always (probably rarely) in touch with what the other person was experiencing as a result of his behaviour.

I see folks comment on P's behaviour in a way that leads me to feel that they think the OUTCOME of P's treatment of other people was premeditated to be callous. I don't think so.

I think he deliberately many times acted in a callous way, but I don't think he mostly cnsidered that his actions would hurt the other person. I think he did things to deliberately protect/benefit himself, not taking other people's feelings into consideration.

I think P would've wanted the folks in his life to be completely compliant and follow his directions/ideas and not challenge him except for in ways he found acceptable, stop arguing when he was done arguing, be talented but not too talented as to show him up, motivated but not to the point of independant thinking...basically flesh covered ROBOTS with the capability to love him, accompany him, protect him, but that's unrealistic of course.

Yet, I also think folks who were too compliant...the fantasy wasn't as appealing as the reality so he was never truly satisfied.

Don't forget P gave Andre the song Dance Electric...then remade it himself...Typical P move. Wanting to be generous, but then deciding he could do it better himself. [sigh]

Complicated to say the least. confused lol

[Edited 5/15/17 19:43pm]

I would also agree with most of what you've said in regards to him "knowing" where he was going and either people could come along or not. That was their choice. In an interview with Mojo in the 80's, he states "My way is usually the best way" in regards to his own work. He was headstrong from the beginning because he had a vision and it was HIS music, so he knew what he wanted to do. I think he really tried to benefit everyone around them but their egos got in the way and that's understandable. As much as he wanted autonomy, they did as well.

God is my Sugar Daddy.
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Reply #381 posted 05/15/17 8:59pm

Misslink88

AlexHahn said:

Thank you guys for the comments. I believe we are off Rick James now, but I did want to mention that if I had to choose a favorite chapter for the book from a writing perspective this was it. Laura Tiebert was absolutely instrumental in the drafting of this chapter. However, it was also, perhaps even more so than any other chapter, a product of editing and collaboration. I think we probably exchanged this chapter back and forth about 20 times, adding and editing throughout. I would say this chapter took about 300 hours of editing and drafting between the two of us, although Laura could better say whether I am exaggerating. Point being it was the most fun you can have as a writer, and the topic of Rick James and this rivalry fascinated us, particularly because it was such a pivotal point in Prince's career.

Alex, I'm still leaning toward Vanity being part of Rick's groupies. There is something with the Toronto connection and then the LA timeline that just leads me to believe that P met her through Rick. Did you get any confirmation or leads in that direction? (In her obit, they posted that she met him in 1980 AMAs, which differs from what's out there as well.)

God is my Sugar Daddy.
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Reply #382 posted 05/15/17 9:41pm

LBrent

Misslink88 said:

AlexHahn said:

Thank you guys for the comments. I believe we are off Rick James now, but I did want to mention that if I had to choose a favorite chapter for the book from a writing perspective this was it. Laura Tiebert was absolutely instrumental in the drafting of this chapter. However, it was also, perhaps even more so than any other chapter, a product of editing and collaboration. I think we probably exchanged this chapter back and forth about 20 times, adding and editing throughout. I would say this chapter took about 300 hours of editing and drafting between the two of us, although Laura could better say whether I am exaggerating. Point being it was the most fun you can have as a writer, and the topic of Rick James and this rivalry fascinated us, particularly because it was such a pivotal point in Prince's career.

Alex, I'm still leaning toward Vanity being part of Rick's groupies. There is something with the Toronto connection and then the LA timeline that just leads me to believe that P met her through Rick. Did you get any confirmation or leads in that direction? (In her obit, they posted that she met him in 1980 AMAs, which differs from what's out there as well.)

Vanity said herself on one those late night talk shows that she met P backstage at an awards show, but who knows?

I only remember seeing her around in photoshoots etc with P in 1980/81, but I don't remember seeing her earlier.

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Reply #383 posted 05/16/17 6:44am

Misslink88

PennyPurple said:

I agree with that in bold. But I would also think that Andre of all people who had been with him thru thick and thin, would've been different.

.

Does anybody know if Prince reached out to Andre in his final months? I know people have said he was reaching out to several to make amends. I wonder if Andre was one of them? Even to this day, I don't think Andre has said anything too negative towards Prince, has he?

Yes, they'd been in touch for a while before April.

Right after that, he says, "I want you to meet my band." So I wind up meeting the band. He tells everybody, "Hey, this is my first bass player." I’m like, "Yeah and this is my first guitar player" [laughs]. Anyway, that was the last time I saw him perform. It wasn’t that long ago. Maybe not last year but maybe the year before? I think that’s the last time I actually saw him. We had a great time. We drank a bottle of Cristal and he introduced me to all the people around. We hung out for awhile.

The last time we corresponded was when I heard about the plane [which had an emergency landing because...id-flight on April 15]. I reached out to get a hold of him. I called a bunch of different people. I called his sister and she said she’d try to give him the message. I called Bobby Z and he said he’d try to get him the message. Finally, Bobby got a hold of him and he sent a text to me. Bobby pasted it and sent it to me. Prince said, "I’m OK. When I get to L.A., we’ll hook up." That was it. And I guess maybe five days later he was gone.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/magazine-feature/7348518/prince-childhood-friend-bassist-andre-cymone-remembrance

God is my Sugar Daddy.
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Reply #384 posted 05/16/17 6:52am

Misslink88

LBrent said:

Misslink88 said:

Alex, I'm still leaning toward Vanity being part of Rick's groupies. There is something with the Toronto connection and then the LA timeline that just leads me to believe that P met her through Rick. Did you get any confirmation or leads in that direction? (In her obit, they posted that she met him in 1980 AMAs, which differs from what's out there as well.)

Vanity said herself on one those late night talk shows that she met P backstage at an awards show, but who knows?

I only remember seeing her around in photoshoots etc with P in 1980/81, but I don't remember seeing her earlier.

There really would have been no reason for her to be seen earlier especially if P had plans for a girl group. He'd have wanted to keep her under wraps until she was introduced as Vanity. I know initially she said in one of the early interviews that she approached him with some lyrics she'd written and he said he knew some other people who "thought like her" and hooked her up with the group. But later we find out that he did all the writing and music. This one is hard to unravel because both of them kept most of it private but there are conflicting interviews and reports even at the time. I was thinking Jill would know a bit more since she met him on the Rick tour but you know P kept the women separate (Jill didn't know about Sheila E at the time).

God is my Sugar Daddy.
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Reply #385 posted 05/16/17 10:10am

LBrent

Misslink88 said:

LBrent said:

Vanity said herself on one those late night talk shows that she met P backstage at an awards show, but who knows?

I only remember seeing her around in photoshoots etc with P in 1980/81, but I don't remember seeing her earlier.

There really would have been no reason for her to be seen earlier especially if P had plans for a girl group. He'd have wanted to keep her under wraps until she was introduced as Vanity. I know initially she said in one of the early interviews that she approached him with some lyrics she'd written and he said he knew some other people who "thought like her" and hooked her up with the group. But later we find out that he did all the writing and music. This one is hard to unravel because both of them kept most of it private but there are conflicting interviews and reports even at the time. I was thinking Jill would know a bit more since she met him on the Rick tour but you know P kept the women separate (Jill didn't know about Sheila E at the time).

Lawd knows baby boy was a juggling artist.

I can't sometimes with him...

rolleyes lol

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Reply #386 posted 05/16/17 11:33am

PennyPurple

avatar

Chapter 13 Ragged Edges Pgs. 155-165

Dirty Mind hit stores. It didn't do well with the radio stations possibly because WB put a label on the demos that said, "please audition before airing". It didn't do well on the charts.

.

WB decided to do a tour in mid size clubs.

.

Howard Bloom was hired as a publicist.

.

Teena Marie was the opening act.

.

Crowds remained small and WB cut the tour back.

.

Prince started working on Do Me Baby, which was Andre's song that he wrote. Andre was already smarting from Prince's failure to credit Andre on Uptown. Andre arrived late to rehearsal, and walked in on the band performing Do Me Baby. When asked why Prince was doing this, Prince replied, "Because I'm a star and you are not" That was the breaking point, Andre told Prince he was going solo.

.

Prince appealed to Andre's mom, Bernadette Anderson, to delay his departure. Andre agreed but asked Prince for a raise. Of course Prince said no, Andre had, had it and told Prince not to worry about it, he would do it for free.

.

Prince had already began looking for a replacement for Andre several months before this happened. Mark Brown was hired for Andre's spot.

.

Went on Saturday Night Live, interviewed with Rolling Stone, shows started selling out.

.

Jill Jones entered the picture.

.

Dez had experience a life changing epiphany and became a born again Christian.

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Reply #387 posted 05/16/17 11:45am

Misslink88

LBrent said:

Misslink88 said:

There really would have been no reason for her to be seen earlier especially if P had plans for a girl group. He'd have wanted to keep her under wraps until she was introduced as Vanity. I know initially she said in one of the early interviews that she approached him with some lyrics she'd written and he said he knew some other people who "thought like her" and hooked her up with the group. But later we find out that he did all the writing and music. This one is hard to unravel because both of them kept most of it private but there are conflicting interviews and reports even at the time. I was thinking Jill would know a bit more since she met him on the Rick tour but you know P kept the women separate (Jill didn't know about Sheila E at the time).

Lawd knows baby boy was a juggling artist.

I can't sometimes with him...

rolleyes lol

To his credit, I think he didn't lead anyone on. They may have felt that he was exclusive with them, but they've all come out and said, sooner or later, they knew about the others. They either chose to stay or go.

God is my Sugar Daddy.
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Reply #388 posted 05/16/17 2:16pm

LBrent

Misslink88 said:

LBrent said:

Lawd knows baby boy was a juggling artist.

I can't sometimes with him...

rolleyes lol

To his credit, I think he didn't lead anyone on. They may have felt that he was exclusive with them, but they've all come out and said, sooner or later, they knew about the others. They either chose to stay or go.

Sometimes when looking at a situation from the outside it seems simple, but being actually in the situation feels differently.

I think we can all agree that P was captivating and could be charming. That affects different people in different ways.

wink

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Reply #389 posted 05/16/17 2:37pm

laurarichardso
n

PennyPurple said:

Well, let's skip ahead just a tad, since we are talking about Prince & Andre's relationship.


.


"Do Me Baby".... it is said that this was Andre's song. He wrote it on a paper bag and left it in his room. Prince and he worked on it, and even did a demo together. Prince took it as his own, never giving Andre credit, just like on the song "Uptown".


.


I would think that Prince and Andre were pretty good friends, if not best friends. So again, how could Prince do this to Andre, when Andre and his family did so much for Prince?


.


Now I understand that Andre can't ride on Prince's coat tails forever but dang that's pretty dirty that Prince could do something like that to him. Don't you think?


--Do Me Baby is this song "Frantic Moment"
https://m.youtube.com/wat...j41zcmRfPg
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