Friends, just to let you know, Zach Hoskins of https://princesongs.org/ and I had a long conversation over the last weekend in which we discussed P's significance, reviewed Ben Greenman's and Mayte's book and discussed how we've processed the shock of his death. The first part, in which we talk about why P mattered, both generally and to us personally, is available now at https://princesongs.org/2...re-jones/. P&BW to you all on this special day of sadness and celebration.

just started listening to your podcast, and its great. Its interesting to hear how you kind of went off prince then got back in and saw and heard how brilliant he still was right up to his death. I kept being a fan and collected bootlegs and stuff like alot of others. So its not a surprise to me all the youtube stuff etc. So its interesting to hear from your point of you. Anyhow im still listening to it.

I will say though you talk like he kept making comebacks, he didn't make any comebacks, he never stopped recording or touring, you as a person decided not to bother, you left the party, but I'm enjoying you talk with one another. Also Susan Rodgers said that Purple Rain the album was on the whole, just Prince, very little collaboration. From what she saw from the recording sessions.

antonb said:

I will say though you talk like he kept making comebacks, he didn't make any comebacks, he never stopped recording or touring, you as a person decided not to bother, you left the party, but I'm enjoying you talk with one another. Also Susan Rodgers said that Purple Rain the album was on the whole, just Prince, very little collaboration. From what she saw from the recording sessions.

Thanks for listening and liking With regard to comebacks, I think it depends on your perspective - we weren't suggesting he ever stopped recording or working, but comeback refers also to regaining popular attention, which defintely happened in 2004 in the States and 2007 in the UK. And with regard to PR, yes, there was less collaboration musically than in the case of Parade and SOTT, but several of the tracks were recorded live or in the warehouse with the Revolution, rather than just by P in the studio playing all the instruments...which is what I meant by it being collaborative in he was still feeding of musical interaction in a way that was different from the immediately preceding albums.

I know what you are getting at, but Prince was still very successful as a independent artist, still sold out arenas etc, and still had a impact and a profile, just not through a big company like Warner's for obvious reasons. The name change was because of the Warner's situation, witch did lose him some fans because he stopped getting played on the radio and got allot of negative press at the time . And it was getting harder to follow his career because of all that. Like any other artist, through the years there was highs and lows, but he ended on a high for me with the Piano and microphone tour and A.O.A and hit and run phase 2. The Pasta song is from Hit and Run phase 1 not A.O.A. I don't think Prince ever stopped collaborating to some extent, Rodgers seem to imply creatively Purple Rain was really all him. That's the impression i got from those great interviews online. Anyhow a fun listen, thanks for taking the trouble to do this.

antonb said:

I know what you are getting at, but Prince was still very successful as a independent artist, still sold out arenas etc, and still had a impact and a profile, just not through a big company like Warner's for obvious reasons. The name change was because of the Warner's situation, witch did lose him some fans because he stopped getting played on the radio and got allot of negative press at the time . And it was getting harder to follow his career because of all that. Like any other artist, through the years there was highs and lows, but he ended on a high for me with the Piano and microphone tour and A.O.A and hit and run phase 2. The Pasta song is from Hit and Run phase 1 not A.O.A. I don't think Prince ever stopped collaborating to some extent, Rodgers seem to imply creatively Purple Rain was really all him. That's the impression i got from those great interviews online. Anyhow a fun listen, thanks for taking the trouble to do this.

Let's take some metrics, and I'll use some UK info, because that's where I'm from. On the Nude Tour, P played Wembly Arena (capacity 12, 500) for 12 nights. On the D&P Tour, he played Earls Court (capacity 20, 000) for 8 nights. By the time of the 1998 New Power Soul Tour, he was playing Wembly Arena for only one night, and then he played Brixton Academy for one night (capacity, 5000). By ONA he played just 3 nights in the Hammersmith Apollo (capacity 5,000). So, yes, he was still playing some arenas until the late 90s, but he wasn't doing massive multi-night arena tours, and he was also playing in much smaller capacity theaters that he generally hadn't played as part of main tours (obviously we're excluding aftershows) from the mid 80s...so that's a big drop off. To go from the predominantly theater tour of ONA to the multi-night big capacity venues of Musicology, does constitute a comeback in terms of public interest, especially when you take that along with the media blitz/TV appearances of the time. Obviously you can say you think Prince was very sucessful as an independent artist, and of course Prince denied that it was a comeback, because Prince was (justifiably) a very proud man, so of course that's what he'd say...but in terms of his ability to sell out big venues, it was a comeback...and when you look at his face when he get that Staples Center standing ovation for the acoustic version of LRC, I'd say it felt rather like a comeback to him as well.

ooooh ya'll be late to the party....

Every artist in the music biz go's up and down in terms of success throughout there careers, Prince is no different, and it isn't hard to work that out. Anyone in showbiz has a peak, even actors and the like. Maybe if he would have stayed his entire career at Warner's and released less, but more solid work say every couple of years instead he would have had a similar live following to say the Rolling Stones, filling stadiums, but he decided not too. The ona tour was not a arena type show really. A bit like the piano and mic tour isn't. My point I was getting was if you have just jumped back on the bandwagon you have missed allot. And some of the things you were both saying was kind of just wrong, really. Like you have got all your info of youtube videos that you have never seen before. It just might be the way it sounds or edited. I just didnt agree with some things that was said, thats all. Still enjoyed it! So thanks for the effort. Prince brings out strong views in people! Another measure of the man!

antonb said:

Every artist in the music biz go's up and down in terms of success throughout there careers, Prince is no different, and it isn't hard to work that out. Anyone in showbiz has a peak, even actors and the like. Maybe if he would have stayed his entire career at Warner's and released less, but more solid work say every couple of years instead he would have had a similar live following to say the Rolling Stones, filling stadiums, but he decided not too. The ona tour was not a arena type show really. A bit like the piano and mic tour isn't. My point I was getting was if you have just jumped back on the bandwagon you have missed allot. And some of the things you were both saying was kind of just wrong, really. Like you have got all your info of youtube videos that you have never seen before. It just might be the way it sounds or edited. I just didnt agree with some things that was said, thats all. Still enjoyed it! So thanks for the effort. Prince brings out strong views in people! Another measure of the man!

Yeah, artists careers go up and down, and when they go down, and then come back up, we call that a comeback - that's just what it means. The thing is, you don't need to tell me what is underpinning your assessment, because the extent to which some fans who were there all the way through have responded to fans who came back in the last year is something I'm very familiar with - the bandwagon word says it all, and it's really dismissive and frankly annoying. It is what it is. Many people left in the nineties because a lot of people didn't like the nineties work...many of us who came back still don't like a lot of the nineties work, because arguably, there were a ton of factos which were affecting him in not so positve ways. Some people came back before his death, and some people didn't, and the way in which a lot of people came back has a lot to do with the release of material that people hadn't seen before. That's not necessarily jumping on a bandwagon. That's being reminded of something that had meaning to you at once point in your life combined with having access to something you didn't have access to before...and you can argue that the hardcore had access to it, which they did. But the point stands that people don't go looking for stuff unless they know there is stuff to look for, and a lot of people didn't, and Prince is largely responsible for that. You can disagree with things we said, as I have said, your disagreement about the comeback terminology just doesn't stack up from my perspective - but I'll take it as an interpretive disagreement - your point about AOA and June was an interpretive error on your part, we were talking in the general context of 'work towards the end of his career which is still pleasingly weird' of which AOA and June are both instances. In fact, what it looks like to me is that you have attributed errors because that fits with your underlying assumption that returnees don't know what they're talking about. And yes, what I missed was live performances (which I am and will forever be gutted about), but Zach didn't, Zach isn't a returnee at all anyway, but more of a fan whose engagement moved with his interest in the music of the particular time. But in terms of information (and no, we didn't just watch a few youtube videos and then think we were qualified to give our thoughts), it's all out there, and actually, there is a lot more out there now than there was while he was still alive...Nobody thinks you have to have been alive in Shakespearean London to be a Shakespeare expert, and you don't have to have been a fan all the way through to develop expertise in Princeology, you just have to study it, which we both have.

theblueangel said:

Never heard that term before, 'returnees.' Funny. It sucks that you've been made to feel 'less than' because of your interest in his music at certain times and disinterest at others. I'm glad that you're out there taking about your love for his music, period. Having said that, I feel obliged to say that disliking his work in the 90s is mind boggling to me, although of course interest in music is personal. But wow, on any given day I would say that was his most interesting decade. And for all the talk about the Warner's era vault stuff, which of course I want to hear, his stuff from about '96 to 2016 by far has the most appeal to me. By far.

Thanks, that's nice of you. Yeah, there has been a certain amount of that, lots of talk of jumping on bandwagons etc... I do get that some people feel that this thing that is precious to them is now being shared with more people, and maybe that feels off to them, but, as you say, the more people out there spreading love for the music and doing whatever to contribute to the legacy, the better imo... I guess I react a bit strongly to it because I'm way pissed that I didn't come back in the 00s...and that was for a bunch of reasons to do with me being very busy career-wise and not paying that much attention to music in general at that time, and also, just missing a few key events that would have given me the heads up, mostly by being on the wrong side of the Atlantic when they happened. But hey, that can't be helped now...and if I ever get my time machine, I'm going straight to Montreux in 2009. As for the nineties, yeah, it's subjective...I just hate the rap, and I don't like the machismo, I just think it doesn't suit him at all, I don't like TMBGITW (way too saccherine for me), D&P is mostly too middle of the road, Emancipation is too smooth...and I don't know, he was strung out for a lot of it, and that affects it in a way which means something about what I really love about him seems absent... Having gone back there is some stuff I like - I like the Undertaker, I like some of the live performances around 93/4, the bootlegs from the DNA lounge, the Sacrifice of Victor stuff from Bagleys, and I like parts of the Beautiful Experience stuff...and there were some great great songs he kept in the repetoire which I like...but in general, for me it all kicks off again with ONA, and the aftershows from that time... It's funny, I was showing some live performances to a friend who hasn't seen them, and she responded in more or less the same way as me...the thing I feel about a lot of the 90s stuff, a kind of tension in him which is also associated with a sort of absence..she noted it from 1988...and then I showed her one of the Musicology acoustic performances, and her immediate response was 'oh, he's back.'

theblueangel said:

dystopiandanceparty said:

Just to weigh in on the collaboration thing, I would also just say that I think of Prince's "collaborative" moments almost as a state of mind rather than who was necessarily in the studio with him... Purple Rain feels like a much more "open" album than the much more insular 1999, for example, and it was credited as a band album. By the Black Album, he's gotten a lot more claustrophobic again. And to be clear, I love a lot of his one man holed up in the studio projects...but I think, especially in a 30-year career, one can only benefit from letting others in a bit...and I think his later albums with Joshua Welton bear that out (speaking of which, as the person who edited the podcast I'll take credit for the "June" confusion... the flow of the conversation makes it sound like Jane is talking about AOA, but it was more like I mentioned AOA and then Jane brought up "June" as a separate example)

Prince would, of course, have had at least one person, often a person who was relatively close to him, around for a lot of his studio time. Susan Rogers spent an enormous amount of time in the mid to late '80's. Jill Jones describes how she and Prince were together nearly 24/7 during the recording of 1999. As you point out, lots of album recording didn't happen with a band around. Jill Jones emphasizes that the band wasn't there for that process.

Loved the podcast, and really looking forward to the topics you take on in the other segments!

jayseajay said:

antonb said:

Every artist in the music biz go's up and down in terms of success throughout there careers, Prince is no different, and it isn't hard to work that out. Anyone in showbiz has a peak, even actors and the like. Maybe if he would have stayed his entire career at Warner's and released less, but more solid work say every couple of years instead he would have had a similar live following to say the Rolling Stones, filling stadiums, but he decided not too. The ona tour was not a arena type show really. A bit like the piano and mic tour isn't. My point I was getting was if you have just jumped back on the bandwagon you have missed allot. And some of the things you were both saying was kind of just wrong, really. Like you have got all your info of youtube videos that you have never seen before. It just might be the way it sounds or edited. I just didnt agree with some things that was said, thats all. Still enjoyed it! So thanks for the effort. Prince brings out strong views in people! Another measure of the man!

Yeah, artists careers go up and down, and when they go down, and then come back up, we call that a comeback - that's just what it means. The thing is, you don't need to tell me what is underpinning your assessment, because the extent to which some fans who were there all the way through have responded to fans who came back in the last year is something I'm very familiar with - the bandwagon word says it all, and it's really dismissive and frankly annoying. It is what it is. Many people left in the nineties because a lot of people didn't like the nineties work...many of us who came back still don't like a lot of the nineties work, because arguably, there were a ton of factos which were affecting him in not so positve ways. Some people came back before his death, and some people didn't, and the way in which a lot of people came back has a lot to do with the release of material that people hadn't seen before. That's not necessarily jumping on a bandwagon. That's being reminded of something that had meaning to you at once point in your life combined with having access to something you didn't have access to before...and you can argue that the hardcore had access to it, which they did. But the point stands that people don't go looking for stuff unless they know there is stuff to look for, and a lot of people didn't, and Prince is largely responsible for that. You can disagree with things we said, as I have said, your disagreement about the comeback terminology just doesn't stack up from my perspective - but I'll take it as an interpretive disagreement - your point about AOA and June was an interpretive error on your part, we were talking in the general context of 'work towards the end of his career which is still pleasingly weird' of which AOA and June are both instances. In fact, what it looks like to me is that you have attributed errors because that fits with your underlying assumption that returnees don't know what they're talking about. And yes, what I missed was live performances (which I am and will forever be gutted about), but Zach didn't, Zach isn't a returnee at all anyway, but more of a fan whose engagement moved with his interest in the music of the particular time. But in terms of information (and no, we didn't just watch a few youtube videos and then think we were qualified to give our thoughts), it's all out there, and actually, there is a lot more out there now than there was while he was still alive...Nobody thinks you have to have been alive in Shakespearean London to be a Shakespeare expert, and you don't have to have been a fan all the way through to develop expertise in Princeology, you just have to study it, which we both have.

Exactly.

jayseajay said:

theblueangel said:

Never heard that term before, 'returnees.' Funny. It sucks that you've been made to feel 'less than' because of your interest in his music at certain times and disinterest at others. I'm glad that you're out there taking about your love for his music, period. Having said that, I feel obliged to say that disliking his work in the 90s is mind boggling to me, although of course interest in music is personal. But wow, on any given day I would say that was his most interesting decade. And for all the talk about the Warner's era vault stuff, which of course I want to hear, his stuff from about '96 to 2016 by far has the most appeal to me. By far.

Thanks, that's nice of you. Yeah, there has been a certain amount of that, lots of talk of jumping on bandwagons etc... I do get that some people feel that this thing that is precious to them is now being shared with more people, and maybe that feels off to them, but, as you say, the more people out there spreading love for the music and doing whatever to contribute to the legacy, the better imo... I guess I react a bit strongly to it because I'm way pissed that I didn't come back in the 00s...and that was for a bunch of reasons to do with me being very busy career-wise and not paying that much attention to music in general at that time, and also, just missing a few key events that would have given me the heads up, mostly by being on the wrong side of the Atlantic when they happened. But hey, that can't be helped now...and if I ever get my time machine, I'm going straight to Montreux in 2009. As for the nineties, yeah, it's subjective...I just hate the rap, and I don't like the machismo, I just think it doesn't suit him at all, I don't like TMBGITW (way too saccherine for me), D&P is mostly too middle of the road, Emancipation is too smooth...and I don't know, he was strung out for a lot of it, and that affects it in a way which means something about what I really love about him seems absent... Having gone back there is some stuff I like - I like the Undertaker, I like some of the live performances around 93/4, the bootlegs from the DNA lounge, the Sacrifice of Victor stuff from Bagleys, and I like parts of the Beautiful Experience stuff...and there were some great great songs he kept in the repetoire which I like...but in general, for me it all kicks off again with ONA, and the aftershows from that time... It's funny, I was showing some live performances to a friend who hasn't seen them, and she responded in more or less the same way as me...the thing I feel about a lot of the 90s stuff, a kind of tension in him which is also associated with a sort of absence..she noted it from 1988...and then I showed her one of the Musicology acoustic performances, and her immediate response was 'oh, he's back.'

I've got a lot of overlap with your reactions (really like vs. harder to get into) to some of the '90s music. I love the Undertaker, and I'll have to check out the DNA lounge stuff. Some of my favorite songs are off Symbol, Gold Experience, Crystal Ball, etc. Of course, Crystal Ball has lots of songs that date from the '80s.

Just curious -- what's your reaction to Days of Wild? Also, re: your friend's observation going back to 1988--was the Lovesexy tour one of the things that struck her that way?

Your podcast discussion with Zach was really, really interesting! Please let us know when the next part is ready for listening.

rednblue said:

jayseajay said:

Thanks, that's nice of you. Yeah, there has been a certain amount of that, lots of talk of jumping on bandwagons etc... I do get that some people feel that this thing that is precious to them is now being shared with more people, and maybe that feels off to them, but, as you say, the more people out there spreading love for the music and doing whatever to contribute to the legacy, the better imo... I guess I react a bit strongly to it because I'm way pissed that I didn't come back in the 00s...and that was for a bunch of reasons to do with me being very busy career-wise and not paying that much attention to music in general at that time, and also, just missing a few key events that would have given me the heads up, mostly by being on the wrong side of the Atlantic when they happened. But hey, that can't be helped now...and if I ever get my time machine, I'm going straight to Montreux in 2009. As for the nineties, yeah, it's subjective...I just hate the rap, and I don't like the machismo, I just think it doesn't suit him at all, I don't like TMBGITW (way too saccherine for me), D&P is mostly too middle of the road, Emancipation is too smooth...and I don't know, he was strung out for a lot of it, and that affects it in a way which means something about what I really love about him seems absent... Having gone back there is some stuff I like - I like the Undertaker, I like some of the live performances around 93/4, the bootlegs from the DNA lounge, the Sacrifice of Victor stuff from Bagleys, and I like parts of the Beautiful Experience stuff...and there were some great great songs he kept in the repetoire which I like...but in general, for me it all kicks off again with ONA, and the aftershows from that time... It's funny, I was showing some live performances to a friend who hasn't seen them, and she responded in more or less the same way as me...the thing I feel about a lot of the 90s stuff, a kind of tension in him which is also associated with a sort of absence..she noted it from 1988...and then I showed her one of the Musicology acoustic performances, and her immediate response was 'oh, he's back.'

I've got a lot of overlap with your reactions (really like vs. harder to get into) to some of the '90s music. I love the Undertaker, and I'll have to check out the DNA lounge stuff. Some of my favorite songs are off Symbol, Gold Experience, Crystal Ball, etc. Of course, Crystal Ball has lots of songs that date from the '80s.

Just curious -- what's your reaction to Days of Wild? Also, re: your friend's observation going back to 1988--was the Lovesexy tour one of the things that struck her that way?

Your podcast discussion with Zach was really, really interesting! Please let us know when the next part is ready for listening.

Days of Wild is interesting, because again, it's one of the songs I like - it has a great great hook - which I prefer later versions of...there is an amazing much funkier/less rappy version from one of the Musicology warm-up gigs he did in San Francisco in 2004 which I love - the last half of that gig is just wonderful, one of those funky-as-shit multi-song rambles where he keeps claiming he's leaving and just can't get his ass off the stage because he's having way too much fun... which is, in general, the thing I don't like about a lot of the nineties performances...there's a lack of presence, and/or a lack of joy, and epic ecstatic joyfulness is one of the things I most value about him... So, yes, it was Lovesexy - specifically the performance of The Cross - I showed her, and I found it really interesting, because I like that performance a lot, and her first comment was, 'he looks tense'...I guess this is one of the things about the release of the material (again, this doesn't apply to the hardcore, but those of us who were not paying full attention all the way along), you can get a sense of it as a span...and I was going through highlights with her chronologically...so she was shown this 20 minutes or so after watching the First Ave Benefit, or the AMA performance of PR, or the Detroit birthday gig...and I guess that allows people to perceive the contrasts more fully... And yes, I find it interesting because, as I say in the podcast, I think things begin to unravel a bit for him, or the various tensions start exerting themselves, from the end of 86 onwards...and as we know, the genesis of Lovesexy is in response to a moment of spiritual crisis in which what I'd understand as symptoms of those conflicts start to be more present to him...and apparently, that shows...

any chance you'll put this on itunes or soundcloud?

chompsky said:

any chance you'll put this on itunes or soundcloud?

Thanks for the prompt! I've got feeds live on iTunes, Stitcher, and Google Play now (though Play seems to be having trouble accessing the whole file, which is weird):

iTunes

Stitcher

Google Play

I haven't uploaded to Soundcloud or YouTube because frankly I'm a little concerned about getting yanked down for the music clips we use...I feel like they're all pretty fair use, but SoundCloud in particular is very draconian with copyright. We do have a version on Mixcloud, though:

https://www.mixcloud.com/dystopiandanceparty/d-m-s-r-podcast-a-year-without-prince-part-1-of-a-conversation-with-jane-clare-jones/

And of course, if you feel compelled--but only if you feel compelled!--to write us a review on any of the mobile services, I'm told that helps a lot in terms of finding new listeners. For now I only have the four episodes with Jane planned, but I enjoy podcasting and will probably find a way to incorporate new episodes every month or so.

rednblue said:

dystopiandanceparty said:

Just to weigh in on the collaboration thing, I would also just say that I think of Prince's "collaborative" moments almost as a state of mind rather than who was necessarily in the studio with him... Purple Rain feels like a much more "open" album than the much more insular 1999, for example, and it was credited as a band album. By the Black Album, he's gotten a lot more claustrophobic again. And to be clear, I love a lot of his one man holed up in the studio projects...but I think, especially in a 30-year career, one can only benefit from letting others in a bit...and I think his later albums with Joshua Welton bear that out (speaking of which, as the person who edited the podcast I'll take credit for the "June" confusion... the flow of the conversation makes it sound like Jane is talking about AOA, but it was more like I mentioned AOA and then Jane brought up "June" as a separate example)

Prince would, of course, have had at least one person, often a person who was relatively close to him, around for a lot of his studio time. Susan Rogers spent an enormous amount of time in the mid to late '80's. Jill Jones describes how she and Prince were together nearly 24/7 during the recording of 1999. As you point out, lots of album recording didn't happen with a band around. Jill Jones emphasizes that the band wasn't there for that process.

Loved the podcast, and really looking forward to the topics you take on in the other segments!

This is a good point--it's probably worth expanding the definition of "collaborators" to include not only band members but partners, engineers, etc. who were working on the songs--even if Prince did ultimately call all the shots. I do suspect, though, that just like with his band, these collaborations became a lot more one-sided as he got bigger and more isolated--he seems to have worked quite closely with Kirk Johnson, for instance, but I don't get the impression that Kirk was nudging him in any challenging directions (though this might just be my bias for the '80s stuff showing)

Second episode is up! https://princesongs.org/2...are-jones/

This one is more thematic: we're ostensibly talking about Ben Greenman's recent book, but it becomes a springboard for discussions about Prince's supernatural ability to enter "flow," his unparalleled understanding of women's desire, and his complicated relationship with religion and spirituality. I'm pretty happy with how the conversation turned out, and happy to extend it here as usual. Should also be showing up on iTunes/Stitcher/etc. soon.

Mods--I've noticed that podcasts are sometimes "stickied."

This one is fantastic, and it dives very deep into topics at the heart of the purple world. People who love Prince have had to deal with a lot that (for space limitations if nothing else) barely scratches the surface.

Any chance of a sticky?

jayseajay said:

Friends, just to let you know, Zach Hoskins of https://princesongs.org/ and I had a long conversation over the last weekend in which we discussed P's significance, reviewed Ben Greenman's and Mayte's book and discussed how we've processed the shock of his death. The first part, in which we talk about why P mattered, both generally and to us personally, is available now at https://princesongs.org/2...re-jones/. P&BW to you all on this special day of sadness and celebration.

Thank you for this. I enjoyed part one and will be listening to part two in a few minutes.

jayseajay said:

Thanks, that's nice of you. Yeah, there has been a certain amount of that, lots of talk of jumping on bandwagons etc... I do get that some people feel that this thing that is precious to them is now being shared with more people, and maybe that feels off to them, but, as you say, the more people out there spreading love for the music and doing whatever to contribute to the legacy, the better imo... I guess I react a bit strongly to it because I'm way pissed that I didn't come back in the 00s...and that was for a bunch of reasons to do with me being very busy career-wise and not paying that much attention to music in general at that time, and also, just missing a few key events that would have given me the heads up, mostly by being on the wrong side of the Atlantic when they happened. But hey, that can't be helped now...and if I ever get my time machine, I'm going straight to Montreux in 2009. As for the nineties, yeah, it's subjective...I just hate the rap, and I don't like the machismo, I just think it doesn't suit him at all, I don't like TMBGITW (way too saccherine for me), D&P is mostly too middle of the road, Emancipation is too smooth...and I don't know, he was strung out for a lot of it, and that affects it in a way which means something about what I really love about him seems absent... Having gone back there is some stuff I like - I like the Undertaker, I like some of the live performances around 93/4, the bootlegs from the DNA lounge, the Sacrifice of Victor stuff from Bagleys, and I like parts of the Beautiful Experience stuff...and there were some great great songs he kept in the repetoire which I like...but in general, for me it all kicks off again with ONA, and the aftershows from that time... It's funny, I was showing some live performances to a friend who hasn't seen them, and she responded in more or less the same way as me...the thing I feel about a lot of the 90s stuff, a kind of tension in him which is also associated with a sort of absence..she noted it from 1988...and then I showed her one of the Musicology acoustic performances, and her immediate response was 'oh, he's back.'

You lost me with this, stopped reading...

There is no factual evidence for such a statement and for every single anecdotal suggestion that this is the case there are many whom insist that it was not. Obviously he had medical issues that resulted in an overdose of pain medication, two decades later, but to say he was "strung out" for much of the 90s is simply not truth.

That said,

I've listened to the first part of the podcast and for the most part found it very enjoyable and am likely to continue listening to the rest. Thank you both for your efforts and your passion.

As to the topic of comebacks and returnees, I think it all comes down to perspective.

For those of us that did not fall off, the hardcore you speak of, there was no comeback because he, and we, never left. Warner Bros. was no longer promoting him, radio was no longer playing him and the media showed him nothing but ridicule and disrespect over the name change, but, he kept putting out new material (much of it very good), kept playing live and was a pioneer in internet distribution. When he wanted to release something to a wider audience, he made one-off deals with major labels and did so. When he wanted to be more independent, he made deals with distributors or distributed directly to fans. He never left for those that cared and were willing to do the work necessary to keep up.

For those that did fall off, with the lack of promotion or radio play and the name change confusion and subsequent media ridicule, who were not quite obsessed enough to keep up with the many distribution methods or seek out opportunites to see him live when a major label was not promoting his tours, for these "returnees", yes, Musicology was a "comeback", as was the Super Bowl performance and 21 Nights in London.

Again, it all comes down to perspective.

I will say that something about the tone in the podcast when mentioning the "hard core" and your comments in this thread suggest a kind of dismissal of us, as if we are the abberation, that I find a bit unfortunate.

Much has been said this past year about the divide between the "newbies" and the long-time fans. I don't see much truth to this as Prince fandom needs the newbies to carry on and help spread the love for this music to more people and future generations just as it needs us long-term fans to share our knowledge, experiences and all that great music you found on youtube (hint, "hard-core" fans put it there).

I do however see a disturbing divide between the long-time, hard-core and the returnees (love that term, BTW). We the hard-core should be happy to have the returnees back but instead the two groups seem to have issues regarding perceptions of what it means to be a "real fan". Clearly the biggest difference in our passions is in the level of our obsession. Regardless of their passion for Prince's music, returnees cannot honestly claim the level of obsession of the hard-core because if they were as obsessedly passionate, they would never have fallen off, they would be the hard-core.

Unfortunately, those who stopped following Prince when he wasn't popular, downplay the music released independently, see Musicology as a comeback and return to fandom after his passing are going to be regarded as the kind of people who "jump on the bandwagon" by those who were never concerned with popularity, supported him through all his independent releases, and followed him through to the end of his career. You yourself used the words "fell off" to describe yourself, well that's short for "falling off the bandwagon".

It seems a bit disingenuous to me that you bristle at the bandwagon analogy yet by your own description (stopped being a fan with name change and end of hits & promotion, viewing Musicology as a comeback, and renewing your fandom after his passing) your fandom ebbed and flowed with his popularity, the very definition of a "bandwagon" fan.

And there is NOTHING wrong with that. We the hard-core should have no disdain for those those came and went and came back. By the same token those that took that route should also have some respect for those of us that never left.

After all, the whole reason we even care enough to have such discussions as these is because of our passion for Prince and his music. This is something we can all agree on and should be our focus moving forward.

I know, TLDR right? Sorry. Just tryin' to bridge a gap, not burn a bridge...

djThunderfunk said:

jayseajay said:

Thanks, that's nice of you. Yeah, there has been a certain amount of that, lots of talk of jumping on bandwagons etc... I do get that some people feel that this thing that is precious to them is now being shared with more people, and maybe that feels off to them, but, as you say, the more people out there spreading love for the music and doing whatever to contribute to the legacy, the better imo... I guess I react a bit strongly to it because I'm way pissed that I didn't come back in the 00s...and that was for a bunch of reasons to do with me being very busy career-wise and not paying that much attention to music in general at that time, and also, just missing a few key events that would have given me the heads up, mostly by being on the wrong side of the Atlantic when they happened. But hey, that can't be helped now...and if I ever get my time machine, I'm going straight to Montreux in 2009. As for the nineties, yeah, it's subjective...I just hate the rap, and I don't like the machismo, I just think it doesn't suit him at all, I don't like TMBGITW (way too saccherine for me), D&P is mostly too middle of the road, Emancipation is too smooth...and I don't know, he was strung out for a lot of it, and that affects it in a way which means something about what I really love about him seems absent... Having gone back there is some stuff I like - I like the Undertaker, I like some of the live performances around 93/4, the bootlegs from the DNA lounge, the Sacrifice of Victor stuff from Bagleys, and I like parts of the Beautiful Experience stuff...and there were some great great songs he kept in the repetoire which I like...but in general, for me it all kicks off again with ONA, and the aftershows from that time... It's funny, I was showing some live performances to a friend who hasn't seen them, and she responded in more or less the same way as me...the thing I feel about a lot of the 90s stuff, a kind of tension in him which is also associated with a sort of absence..she noted it from 1988...and then I showed her one of the Musicology acoustic performances, and her immediate response was 'oh, he's back.'

You lost me with this, stopped reading...

There is no factual evidence for such a statement and for every single anecdotal suggestion that this is the case there are many whom insist that it was not. Obviously he had medical issues that resulted in an overdose of pain medication, two decades later, but to say he was "strung out" for much of the 90s is simply not truth.

That said,

I've listened to the first part of the podcast and for the most part found it very enjoyable and am likely to continue listening to the rest. Thank you both for your efforts and your passion.

As to the topic of comebacks and returnees, I think it all comes down to perspective.

For those of us that did not fall off, the hardcore you speak of, there was no comeback because he, and we, never left. Warner Bros. was no longer promoting him, radio was no longer playing him and the media showed him nothing but ridicule and disrespect over the name change, but, he kept putting out new material (much of it very good), kept playing live and was a pioneer in internet distribution. When he wanted to release something to a wider audience, he made one-off deals with major labels and did so. When he wanted to be more independent, he made deals with distributors or distributed directly to fans. He never left for those that cared and were willing to do the work necessary to keep up.

For those that did fall off, with the lack of promotion or radio play and the name change confusion and subsequent media ridicule, who were not quite obsessed enough to keep up with the many distribution methods or seek out opportunites to see him live when a major label was not promoting his tours, for these "returnees", yes, Musicology was a "comeback", as was the Super Bowl performance and 21 Nights in London.

Again, it all comes down to perspective.

I will say that something about the tone in the podcast when mentioning the "hard core" and your comments in this thread suggest a kind of dismissal of us, as if we are the abberation, that I find a bit unfortunate.

Much has been said this past year about the divide between the "newbies" and the long-time fans. I don't see much truth to this as Prince fandom needs the newbies to carry on and help spread the love for this music to more people and future generations just as it needs us long-term fans to share our knowledge, experiences and all that great music you found on youtube (hint, "hard-core" fans put it there).

I do however see a disturbing divide between the long-time, hard-core and the returnees (love that term, BTW). We the hard-core should be happy to have the returnees back but instead the two groups seem to have issues regarding perceptions of what it means to be a "real fan". Clearly the biggest difference in our passions is in the level of our obsession. Regardless of their passion for Prince's music, returnees cannot honestly claim the level of obsession of the hard-core because if they were as obsessedly passionate, they would never have fallen off, they would be the hard-core.

Unfortunately, those who stopped following Prince when he wasn't popular, downplay the music released independently, see Musicology as a comeback and return to fandom after his passing are going to be regarded as the kind of people who "jump on the bandwagon" by those who were never concerned with popularity, supported him through all his independent releases, and followed him through to the end of his career. You yourself used the words "fell off" to describe yourself, well that's short for "falling off the bandwagon".

It seems a bit disingenuous to me that you bristle at the bandwagon analogy yet by your own description (stopped being a fan with name change and end of hits & promotion, viewing Musicology as a comeback, and renewing your fandom after his passing) your fandom ebbed and flowed with his popularity, the very definition of a "bandwagon" fan.

And there is NOTHING wrong with that. We the hard-core should have no disdain for those those came and went and came back. By the same token those that took that route should also have some respect for those of us that never left.

After all, the whole reason we even care enough to have such discussions as these is because of our passion for Prince and his music. This is something we can all agree on and should be our focus moving forward.

I know, TLDR right? Sorry. Just tryin' to bridge a gap, not burn a bridge...

Just saw this response, and thank you for it--speaking as a quasi-newbie/quasi-returnee, I do think this is something we're going to have to finesse going forward; I have a lot of respect for the people like yourself who stuck through the independent years, because lord knows not only WB but also Prince made it difficult at times. And I think there is a lot of really intriguing work from the '90s and early 2000s that I'm glad I was able to go back and discover--when I get to that point in my blog (fortunately a long way away), I certainly hope to be fair about the music I don't care as much for and do justice to the ride-or-die fans' experiences.

I also like hearing Jane's perspective, though, because I think it's worth looking at why so many people were turned off by the '90s work, then later brought back in the fold in the late '00s. Part of it, as you say, is because Prince was no longer "mainstream"--a fair amount of people had fallen off after Purple Rain, too--but he was also paradoxically less supported by the underground as an independent artist than he was on a major label. I remember reading alternative-centric reviews of, like, New Power Soul that were just savage. It's not that I think there's some objective truth to '90s Prince being worse than '80s Prince (though New Power Soul is pretty objectively mediocre), but I think when enough people--even/especially people with non-mainstream musical tastes--lose interest, there must be at least some "there" there.

Most importantly, though, I agree that all of us are united by a shared passion, and I find the sheer range of opinions and experiences in the Prince "community" pretty fascinating. I'm hoping to keep the podcast going with a lot of different voices: would love to talk to some ride-or-die people who were stronger-willed than me and Jane, some real newbies who got on board even later than I did, some members of different communities to whom Prince spoke in a different and meaningful way (I'm early in the planning stages for that last one and super excited about it). I can't really erase my own biases, nor can I fix the newbie/hardcore/returnee rift you describe, but maybe we can lean into "multiculturalism" and at least make sure a wide range of opinions get a voice.

[Edited 5/22/17 12:32pm]

dystopiandanceparty said:

Just saw this response, and thank you for it--speaking as a quasi-newbie/quasi-returnee, I do think this is something we're going to have to finesse going forward; I have a lot of respect for the people like yourself who stuck through the independent years, because lord knows not only WB but also Prince made it difficult at times. And I think there is a lot of really intriguing work from the '90s and early 2000s that I'm glad I was able to go back and discover--when I get to that point in my blog (fortunately a long way away), I certainly hope to be fair about the music I don't care as much for and do justice to the ride-or-die fans' experiences.

I also like hearing Jane's perspective, though, because I think it's worth looking at why so many people were turned off by the '90s work, then later brought back in the fold in the late '00s. Part of it, as you say, is because Prince was no longer "mainstream"--a fair amount of people had fallen off after Purple Rain, too--but he was also paradoxically less supported by the underground as an independent artist than he was on a major label. I remember reading alternative-centric reviews of, like, New Power Soul that were just savage. It's not that I think there's some objective truth to '90s Prince being worse than '80s Prince (though New Power Soul is pretty objectively mediocre), but I think when enough people--even/especially people with non-mainstream musical tastes--lose interest, there must be at least some "there" there.

Most importantly, though, I agree that all of us are united by a shared passion, and I find the sheer range of opinions and experiences in the Prince "community" pretty fascinating. I'm hoping to keep the podcast going with a lot of different voices: would love to talk to some ride-or-die people who were stronger-willed than me and Jane, some real newbies who got on board even later than I did, some members of different communities to whom Prince spoke in a different and meaningful way (I'm early in the planning stages for that last one and super excited about it). I can't really erase my own biases, nor can I fix the newbie/hardcore/returnee rift you describe, but maybe we can lean into "multiculturalism" and at least make sure a wide range of opinions get a voice.

Your efforts are appreciated.