paulludvig said:

I don't see why we have to make peace with people tampering with Prince's music. If I go to a museum to look at a sketch by Michelangelo I don't expect to see a version "enhanced" by the museum curator. Let's hope those in a position to release Prince's music show some respect for Prince as an artist.

Many old paintings and scultpures are getting restored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AsVx9kSDKA

Neversin said:

Prince didn't give a shit about people having unreleased songs or shows, his only grievance were people who sold these and made a profit of of his work...
Neversin.

Not true. In 2014 prince and his lawyers forced a lot of blogs that shared bootleg recordings for free to shut down. And then he lied to the press that he's only taking legal action against those who sell bootlegs.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140126/22483926006/prince-sues-22-fans-1-million-each-linking-to-bootlegs-laughably-confused-complaint.shtml

[Edited 4/21/17 14:49pm]

ludwig said:

paulludvig said:

I don't see why we have to make peace with people tampering with Prince's music. If I go to a museum to look at a sketch by Michelangelo I don't expect to see a version "enhanced" by the museum curator. Let's hope those in a position to release Prince's music show some respect for Prince as an artist.

Many old paintings and scultpures are getting restored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AsVx9kSDKA

Restored to their original condition if possible. But no museum ever enhances a great artists work and call it a finished work.

Imagine if they called in Andy Warhol to finish a Michaelangelo piece. lol

It would be another ironic Andy Warhol piece but not a restored Michaelangelo.

Interesting because it's Prince but it's not really essential. It's subpar Prince. I listened to it twice and never will again.

homesquid said:

Interesting because it's Prince but it's not really essential. It's subpar Prince. I listened to it twice and never will again.

Agreed...

I don't understand all the people saying this is a masterpiece... I guess they are just really on high emotions during this time...

But yes it very subpar, some nice guitar playing on the song Deliverance, butnothing special about anything on the EP. Anyone calling this a masterpiece needs to go back and listen to the actual "masterpieces" he created...

This is subpar Prince and recorded at his most subpar time period, during the Planet Earth era.

I don't care about Ian, or the estate. I really needed this today. To think that I thought that I would be in mourning again and crying, yet, I am listening to new music, great music, growing on me with every listen. Even the back and forth going on between is the same with any other Prince release. This music was a gift, and it was so needed today. I was dreading this day for months and here we are discussing his music again. He never released like we thought, so why should we be surprisesd now.

I cannot wait to see what else will trinkle out. I am blessed and today is a day of appreciation because Prince will continue to be a PRESENT part of our lives, and his music will come out just when we need it, and God, I did today.

Carry on with your arguments and I am going to ignore them because I can, I can, I can, I can!!!!

Thank you Prince!!!!!!

Ingela said:

Formally, do you think Deliverance is a Prince ufficial "controversial" release, or a bootleg?

fabriziovenerandi said:

fabriziovenerandi said:

Formally, do you think Deliverance is a Prince ufficial "controversial" release, or a bootleg?

The same as "94 East" by Pepe Willie.

If you look at it as semi-official like me, "Deliverance" falls in the same category.

BoraBora said:

jaypotton said:

BoraBora said:

The same as "94 East" by Pepe Willie.

If you look at it as semi-official like me, "Deliverance" falls in the same category.

Hmmmm not really. The tracks on 94East were not the sole creations of Prince. They were co-written by others and featured other musicians. Therefore those others involved could lay claim to ownership or co-ownership. In this case the tracks are the sole creation of Prince. The engineer who worked with him in the studio (as a hired gun) kept the tapes and "finished" them without permission from Prince or his estate. These are not co-creations. One simple question to ask is...if Prince were alive would he support this release?

Pepe Willie released the 94 East after the Purple Rain success to cash-in.
And as far as I know P was not happy to see that.
But anyway the 94 East (all countless releases) are universally considered semi-official and not strictly bootlegs.

Technically you're right in sayin' that "Deliverance" is a P creation and "94 East" was not, but commercially we are talkin' of the same thing.... with the difference that Pepe Willie did it with P alive and Ian did it now one year after P death.

Anyway, to be honest I don't find that so important. What matters is the music.

I woke up this morning and imediately I thought of how I felt just a year ago.

The very first day after the most uncomprehensive news ever.

So I decided to listen again to the EP in my bed on my iPad.

And, it got me with pure sadness.

You're right. It's 'sweet' to hear new Prince music on this too short EP.

I nearly cried thinking that Prince isn't just more then merely a vase of ashes in his own recording studio.

It's so sad. After 1 year I still can't get it.

And then, all of a sudden, a tiny bit of new music is there.

I suddenly realise that post-Prince era is defineaely there.

It will be difficult.

We were so spoiled over the past decades. Tons and tons of music, always and again.

Offical, and unofficial. Through others, in all kinds of forms, etc.

Of course it's hard to like everything Prince put out.

But a bit of respect is in its place right here.

-

This EP is indeed 'sweet'.

It's made probably with the idea of a next project, ect, like always.

Living the eternal life. Full of ideas and projects. Always looking ahead.

And then, suddenly found dead in an elevator.

Still, it's all about the F.U.N.K. that he is in 'I AM'. And that's all that matters.

Thank you Prince.

BoraBora said:

jaypotton said:

BoraBora said:

Pepe Willie released the 94 East after the Purple Rain success to cash-in.
And as far as I know P was not happy to see that.
But anyway the 94 East (all countless releases) are universally considered semi-official and not strictly bootlegs.

Technically you're right in sayin' that "Deliverance" is a P creation and "94 East" was not, but commercially we are talkin' of the same thing.... with the difference that Pepe Willie did it with P alive and Ian did it now one year after P death.

Anyway, to be honest I don't find that so important. What matters is the music.

Oh I am not saying Pepe Willie wasn't cashing in etc and that Prince wasn't pissed. What I am saying is that Prince could not block the release of 94East because it was a co-creation and he did not own the copyright. If Prince were alive he COULD BLOCK the release of Deliverance because he is the sole copyright owner (ergo the estate).

According to what you are sayin', any P release after his death is not official because if alive he could block the release.

But P is dead. Let's face it. There is a B.P. and a A.P.

BoraBora said:

jaypotton said:

BoraBora said: Oh I am not saying Pepe Willie wasn't cashing in etc and that Prince wasn't pissed. What I am saying is that Prince could not block the release of 94East because it was a co-creation and he did not own the copyright. If Prince were alive he COULD BLOCK the release of Deliverance because he is the sole copyright owner (ergo the estate).

According to what you are sayin', any P release after his death is not official because if alive he could block the release.

But P is dead. Let's face it. There is a B.P. and a A.P.

Yes, there is BP and AP. But in this after Prince world the authority for blocking or authorising releases lies with the estate. So now, whether we like it or not, we have to look to the estate to say what is official or not.

BoraBora said:

jaypotton said:

BoraBora said:

According to what you are sayin', any P release after his death is not official because if alive he could block the release.

But P is dead. Let's face it. There is a B.P. and a A.P.

Sigh... Not at all. Official means authorised by the estate (if Prince were alive it would be Prince authorising but now it is HIS estate that owns the copyright and therefore rights to release or authorise releases). If the estate have not authorised it then it is not official. So (assuming the Univeral deal is not dead) if Universal had released Deliverance we could very safely assume it was an official release. They didn't so it isn't! It is all quite simple and black and white really. Not sure why folks are struggling with this? [Edited 4/22/17 3:03am]

Because even if The Estate now will decide what do release and what to not release, we'll have no chances to be sure that P would agree with them.

So yes, commercially talking "The Estate" mark will give the release "officiality".

But it will never be true to the artist's desire of release "this" or "that".

BoraBora said:

jaypotton said:

BoraBora said:

Because even if The Estate now will decide what do release and what to not release, we'll have no chances to be sure that P would agree with them.

So yes, commercially talking "The Estate" mark will give the release "officiality".

But it will never be true to the artist's desire of release "this" or "that".

That argument is irrelevant in law and copyright. Prince is dead. Prince didn't leave a will. It is therefore impossible to have any idea what Prince would have wanted to happen to his creations (and the vault) after he died. By law Prince's estate now owns the copyright. They also therefore control what is and is not released whether we like that or not. There is no grey area justification.

To be clear, you're right on all.

But the fact that "Deliverance" didn't came out from The Estate doesn't automatically implies that Prince would have never approved the release, as many here are hinting to.

Just that.

BoraBora said:

jaypotton said:

BoraBora said:

ludwig said:

Neversin said:

Prince didn't give a shit about people having unreleased songs or shows, his only grievance were people who sold these and made a profit of of his work...
Neversin.

Not true. In 2014 prince and his lawyers forced a lot of blogs that shared bootleg recordings for free to shut down. And then he lied to the press that he's only taking legal action against those who sell bootlegs.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140126/22483926006/prince-sues-22-fans-1-million-each-linking-to-bootlegs-laughably-confused-complaint.shtml

[Edited 4/21/17 14:49pm]

Big difference from what I posted...
Prince himself gave out tapes to people with unreleased material...
Sharing (free or by selling) and people owning his material are two different things...

Neversin.

BoraBora said:

jaypotton said:

BoraBora said: Hmmmm not really. The tracks on 94East were not the sole creations of Prince. They were co-written by others and featured other musicians. Therefore those others involved could lay claim to ownership or co-ownership. In this case the tracks are the sole creation of Prince. The engineer who worked with him in the studio (as a hired gun) kept the tapes and "finished" them without permission from Prince or his estate. These are not co-creations. One simple question to ask is...if Prince were alive would he support this release?

Pepe Willie released the 94 East after the Purple Rain success to cash-in.
And as far as I know P was not happy to see that.
But anyway the 94 East (all countless releases) are universally considered semi-official and not strictly bootlegs.

Technically you're right in sayin' that "Deliverance" is a P creation and "94 East" was not, but commercially we are talkin' of the same thing.... with the difference that Pepe Willie did it with P alive and Ian did it now one year after P death.

Anyway, to be honest I don't find that so important. What matters is the music.

There's nothing unofficial about the 94 East material. Prince was a hired hand on those recordings, and the owner of them released them in a perfectly legitimate manner. Prince might not have liked it, but the decision was not his to make, at all. I'm sure there's material out there that Eric Leeds or other hired players were paid to work on that they didn't particularly care to have released--but Prince, who owned the recordings, did--so he released them. That's the situation with 94 East. Those are official releases--they just aren't Prince releases. They aren't bootlegs in any sense.

The Deliverance material is a different kettle of fish. It wasn't Boxill's legal choice to release them.

what sucks is he "touched" it.....would rather have it the they way he did it......hope this doesnt start a trend for his vault material!!!!

feeluupp said:

homesquid said:

Interesting because it's Prince but it's not really essential. It's subpar Prince. I listened to it twice and never will again.

Agreed...

I don't understand all the people saying this is a masterpiece... I guess they are just really on high emotions during this time...

But yes it very subpar, some nice guitar playing on the song Deliverance, butnothing special about anything on the EP. Anyone calling this a masterpiece needs to go back and listen to the actual "masterpieces" he created...

This is subpar Prince and recorded at his most subpar time period, during the Planet Earth era.

No, this EP is quite good. Probably the best thing I've heard from Prince in years as far as "releases" go. I dont' know about masterpiece, but this is the kind of music that is signature Prince; music that you aren't gonna just go "wow" on your first listen, but grows on your the more you listen to it. The first listen of SOTT? I was like, wtf, Prince? The way I see it? You're right; PE was sub-par, at least in my eyes. But who knows naybe that's what drove him to record stuff like this during that period? Maybe in releasing something that he knew was not his best stuff, he recorded things like this to get it out and on tape, because, as has been said, he has recorded numerous songs that people "just weren't ready for". And Deliverance? Good lord, the shit would have hit the proverbial fan had he released this back then. Anyway, my vote is that this EP is easily a 8/10.

I agree with the people who say they want the "original" recordings, without Boxill's additions since Prince's death. But what does that mean? Boxill (at least according to his account) already did some arranging and recording on his own BEFORE Prince died with Prince giving his approval for those contributions to the tracks. Yes, Boxill was working in the capacity of an arranger, and almost certainly would never have gotten a producer credit (nor a composer credit) if those versions had been released by Prince. But they were still part of an overall Prince-led and -controlled project. So those versions (with Boxill's arrangements and recordings) would count as "real Prince outtakes" and, like the Eric Leeds on sax version of The Ballad of Dorothy Parker would be something I would want to have and consider actual Prince products. As much so as versions that were exclusively Prince and did not include any Boxill contributions (other than engineering work, obviously).

However, the post-death versions are what we have for now (perhaps the others will sometime be available to us, and that would be nice)--and they probably come close to what the norm for future releases will be. I don't know what the process used for the Purple Rain package was, and whether it was all done before Prince's death or not (I suspect not, based on some of the tracklist), but I'm guessing a lot of vault releases will require "finishing" in some way, at least for general consumption. They might dump material on us as much of Dylan's recent "clearing the decks" type releases have been, but I doubt it--if for no other reason than that collectors already have so much of it. I figure they'll do it in smaller batches, and aim for releasing things that "feel" like completed work--and that's gonna mean completing it, sometimes.

I don't anticipate huge amounts of additions, but I think that we need to get used to the idea that "official" releases from the estate are not going to be "Prince" versions--other people will be shaping them. This is obviously going to be the case as far as any "albums" or "collections" we see--but it's also going to be true for individual tracks. And if it isn't, some of us will complain about the result as many of us did about Moonbeam Levels--"it sounds like an outtake"--"it sounds like an old recording from 1982"--which of course it is, one he abandoned back then, without ever completely finishing, without ever mixing and mastering to a completed state, without ever placing in a definite context. People other than Prince will make what are artistic decisions--and Prince didn't even make the decision about who those people would be. So while there are going to be (I hope) many releases coming from the folks who have the legal authority to release Prince material, none of those releases will be Prince-authorized, or Prince-approved, or (in all likelihood) necessarily Prince-heard, or exclusively Prince-created. Boxill's attempted release obviously wasn't any of those things--but if the estate were to decide to release the same versions a month or a decade from now--which one assumes they could since their blocking of Boxill's release is based on the idea that the estate owns the recordings--they would suddenly become legal "official Prince releases" but they still wouldn't be Prince-authorized, -approved, or even -heard.

The posthumous releases are all compromised--none of them have Prince's authorization. Even those that he may have been working on or approved before his death he might have changed his mind on had he lived, adding, editing, or even cancelling. As far as I'm concerned, the official discography ended with Black Sweat on April 18, 2016. That's the last thing that we know came out with his approval; everything else (official or unofficial) is subject to other people's will.

I know this is long-winded and maybe unnecessary. I guess I'm just thinking aloud. But some people seem to be far more judgmental or certain about this whole issue than I am. So I thought I'd just see what my thinking really was. For what it's worth.