I was just reading a commentary in which a writer said that Prince's self indulgence had its roots in SOTT but was also what led to his downfall. She said that PRince's SOTT was a great album partly because it was at least a little reigned in by WB. She implied that his lack of focus in terms of song selection was the problem later in life because no one was there to reign it in.. NOt a totally invalid point, but I would argue that individual songs should not be ruled out. In other words, Prince may have sucked (post WB, much of the time) at reigning in his musical impulses in such a way that a coherent/consistent album could be created but that doesn't mean that he stopped having creative musical ideas. His output is not like other people's. There is so much of it and it is so varied. Maybe, the way in which the works are rated and analysed should be indicative of how Prince himself was.

I think maybe people should rate his songs rather than his albums in the post WB days. Music critics and writers should stop being lazy about his later work, should dig and peruse and list his best SONGS of that period rather than being thrown off by the inclusion of Jughead next to MOney don't matter tonight in an album with a pretty Diamonds and Pearls cover. Prince stated that albums still matter (for AOA, Rainbow Children and the Truth maybe he was right). But there certainly was a period in which Prince seemed to think single songs mattered more than albums. Songs are complete units in their own right and maybe should be studied and evaluated as such. Its not like Irving Berlin was judged by how well his songs linked together thematically. I like concept albums (which lets face it, most albums have at least loose concepts/vibes stringing the songs together) but they are not everything. Irealize the quality isn't always consistent as well. But Prince's genius period being more consistent shouldn't rule out the brilliance of his later periods just becuase there are duds also apparent.

[Edited 4/2/17 11:42am]

[Edited 4/2/17 11:45am]

With a big fat joint.

Sure if it helps get through some of his songs. But I am serious. Is is fair to ignore diamonds in the rough. They are still diamonds. Its not like there are only a few (IMO there are quite a few). I find it so pretentious for critics to agree that Prince is the mozart of modern music only to basically give little to no thought to his last 30 years and to excuse their laziness by simplying reiterating pro-Warner Brothers narrative. LAZY as hell.

sro100 said:

With a big fat joint.

[Edited 4/2/17 12:14pm]

Thanks Rusty for doing exactly what I disagree with. Giving individual songs the benefit of the doubt as long as they are from the 80's while judging albums in their entirety for the later periods.

No one said he was hitting on all cylinders or that he hadn't lost his way in some ways later in his career, but I would much rather listen to Black Sweat (the electro-funk single he released from 3121 that you hate) than la la he he hee (with its dog barking) or Better stop messing around from the 80's.

I am exposing my kids to Prince music (somewhat carefully because it is dirty). they are very young so their likes/loves are instinctic/pure rather than rooted in narrative or stupid name change/symbols. My daughter loves Black Sweat (she's nine). She can not stand Cream (even though she doesn't get it at all.) Music is subjective obviously but perhaps because we know its subjective, we should acknowledge that 30 years of music should be given some respect and people should at least attempt to give P the benefit of the doubt for each individual song. Even if he lost his way, he was still a musican constantly creating.

BTW, my daughter also loves the song "LOVE". I mean really really loves it. My son can't stand Girls and Boys but loves much of everything else from Prince--especially Delirious. Taste is obviously subjective no matter what period it comes from. Funny that my daughter and I both love Girls and Boys.

By the way, who cares why Prince released Come or Chaos and Disorder. If you like songs like "DarK" or "I like it there" or "Dinner for Delores"..that's what matters. I too dislike New Power Soul but I find strengths in the other two albums.

Imagine if WB let him release every single tidbit of music from the 80's. Would you love him as much? Probably not. His work, in my opinion, has always been like that to some extent. He just lacked an editor later in life and felt like he had to follow trends (hip hop, new jack swing). Does anyone not love the single "Glasscutter". to me that blows away "It' from SOTT.

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

[Edited 4/2/17 12:40pm]

[Edited 4/2/17 12:41pm]

[Edited 4/2/17 12:50pm]

[Edited 4/2/17 12:53pm]

purplerabbithole said:

Nice. I am not a JW fan or really a fan of Rainbow children (especially lyrically), but what a way to oversimplify the man.

rusty1 said:

Oh yea & Prince lost his mind when he got lured Into that JW cult. [Edited 4/2/17 12:53pm]

NO that is not what I am saying. You are the one oversimplifying and leaving out nuance. Responding with knee jerk reaction. Creating a simple narrative of... Prince could do no wrong in the 80's. Prince is shit after the 80's. Prince did miss the mark sometimes in the 80's and Prince didn't do complete shit after the 80's..is all I am saying.

His legend is still being unfolded. He just died and half his music is still hard to get. So, let's not cement his legend until the whole story is told. Yes, his 80's music overall is his best, but he didn't retire in 1988 and talent doesn't just turn off like a tap.

rusty1 said:

purplerabbithole said:

Thanks Rusty for doing exactly what I disagree with. Giving individual songs the benefit of the doubt as long as they are from the 80's while judging albums in their entirety for the later periods.

No one said he was hitting on all cylinders or that he hadn't lost his way in some ways later in his career, but I would much rather listen to Black Sweat (the electro-funk single he released from 3121 that you hate) than la la he he hee (with its dog barking) or Better stop messing around from the 80's.

I am exposing my kids to Prince music (somewhat carefully because it is dirty). they are very young so their likes/loves are instinctic/pure rather than rooted in narrative or stupid name change/symbols. My daughter loves Black Sweat (she's nine). She can stand Cream (even though she doesn't get it at all.) Music is subjective obviously but perhaps because we know its subjective, we should acknowledge that 30 years of music should be given some respect and people should at least attempt to give P the benefit of the doubt for each individual song. Even if he lost his way, he was still a musican constantly creating.

BTW, my daughter also loves the song "LOVE". I mean really really loves it. My son can't stand Girls and Boys but loves most of everything else from Prince--especially Delirious. Taste is obviously subjective no matter what period it comes from.

By the way, who cares why Prince released Come or Chaos and Disorder. If you like songs like "DarK" or "I like it there" or "Dinner for Delores"..that's what matters. I too dislike New Power Soul but I find strengths in the other two albums.

[Edited 4/2/17 12:40pm]

[Edited 4/2/17 12:41pm]

The bottom line is his 80's era is why Prince is a legend. He did nothing great after 1988. He could do no wrong & had no filler albums, During his heyday. The people on this site are unreal. Ok everything Prince did was great

[Edited 4/2/17 13:00pm]

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

I love '80s Prince, and B sides are among my very favorites, but I also absolutely love a LOT of post-80's Prince music. Just my opinion. As Purplerabbithole pointed out, taste is subjective.

purplerabbithole said:

NO that is not what I am saying. You are the one oversimplifying and leaving out nuance. Responding with knee jerk reaction. Creating a simple narrative of... Prince could do no wrong in the 80's. Prince is shit after the 80's. Prince did miss the mark sometimes in the 80's and Prince didn't do complete shit after the 80's..is all I am saying.

His legend is still being unfolded. He just died and half his music is still hard to get. So, let's not cement his legend until the whole story is told. Yes, his 80's music overall is his best, but he didn't retire in 1988 and talent doesn't just turn off like a tap.

rusty1 said:

purplerabbithole said: The bottom line is his 80's era is why Prince is a legend. He did nothing great after 1988. He could do no wrong & had no filler albums, During his heyday. The people on this site are unreal. Ok everything Prince did was great

[Edited 4/2/17 13:00pm]

Yes.

rusty1 said:

Te amo Corazon was an awful first single on 3121. The general public didn't care about Prince, after the early 90's. Except for the nostalgia of the year 2004 with the 20 yr anniversary Of PR. 1995to 2016 ,Prince had no top 10 hits & lived off of The early career legacy. He was still great live but didn't connect with the public at all. An album would debut on the top 10, then leave the top 200 in A matter of weeks. He wasn't revelant at all. Plus he didn't promote his albums at all with singles Coming out a month before an album, Like the old days. How many of his albums sold 1 million especially After 1997? Let's be objective here. Prince is a forever legend because of his 80's period

I agree with some of this, but your earlier comment of "Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016..." was about the quality of the music.

rednblue said:

But see you are not allowed to feel that way because that makes you someone with no musical taste or culture. Remember this is the rule--Prince's 80 music great no matter what. Prince post 80's music pretty much shit with a few random exceptions here and there.

So I am not allowed to say that I like Glasscutter (with its stunning guitar playing and funny lyrics about erect nipples) better than say "Dead On it" because by definition Dead on it is better because of when it was released.

rednblue said:

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

I love '80s Prince, and B sides are among my very favorites, but I also absolutely love a LOT of post-80's Prince music. Just my opinion. As Purplerabbithole pointed out, taste is subjective.

sro100 said:

With a big fat joint.

I second that.

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

rusty1, you have this american tendency to confuse success with artistry.

Your "let's be honest" resonates only on your keyboard, but not in everyone's mind.
It always will be a failed attempt to try to persuade that your point of view should be ZEE point of view.

When you're talking about "window", "trend setter", "commercial comeback", you sound like a Warner Bros marketing intern dork, not as someone who has precise tastes in music and knows how to explain them to people with a different opinion.

Prince wasn't in it for the money. Whatever you're assuming, he simply knew how to pay the bills for PP and its operations. For the rest, he was just writing what he felt like writing.

But I've been there long ago, I get where you're getting at.
Again, art is not business. Prince just happened to exist in the 20th century, that's all. So he dealt with it the best he could.

As for artistic quality, boy oh boy you really don't know your Vault if you think he didn't produce masterpieces at the very same time where he put out albums you find disappointing.
His talent never left him. In the end, the real excitement was to be found in the live performances. Go for it.

With the exception of Te Amo Corazon, your statement has nothing to do with the quality of his music. Its about narrative. His albums didn't register for long becasue the people rushing out to buy them were already fans and because he couldn't promote his work to save his life. He wasn't getting new fans unless they were being dragged to concerts. He had a niche audience and he seemed fine with that. His death however grants him some relevence. I dare you to go on youtube and read comments about much of his later work. There are young people on there discovering it for the first time and many of them are startled by it...and its songs like "Love" and "3121" that are getting comments like those.

Prince becoming an underground artist who didn't know how to break the ceiling of the youth movement and who alienated people with weird previous behavior---those extenunating factors play into it more than probably his music. Do people honestly think that Adele is cooler than Prince..No, she is just younger and media savvy. Musical popularity also has image attached to it. At least in the initial stages. For example, a homophobic racist who dislikes funk and short people isn't going to realize unless they are forced to that Prince could actually play guitar.

rusty1 said:

Te amo Corazon was an awful first single on 3121. The general public didn't care about Prince, after the early 90's. Except for the nostalgia of the year 2004 with the 20 yr anniversary Of PR. 1995to 2016 ,Prince had no top 10 hits & lived off of The early career legacy. He was still great live but didn't connect with the public at all. An album would debut on the top 10, then leave the top 200 in A matter of weeks. He wasn't revelant at all. Plus he didn't promote his albums at all with singles Coming out a month before an album, Like the old days. How many of his albums sold 1 million especially After 1997? Let's be objective here. Prince is a forever legend because of his 80's period

purplerabbithole said:

But see you are not allowed to feel that way because that makes you someone with no musical taste or culture. Remember this is the rule--Prince's 80 music great no matter what. Prince post 80's music pretty much shit with a few random exceptions here and there.

So I am not allowed to say that I like Glasscutter (with its stunning guitar playing and funny lyrics about erect nipples) better than say "Dead On it" because by definition Dead on it is better because of when it was released.

rednblue said:

I love '80s Prince, and B sides are among my very favorites, but I also absolutely love a LOT of post-80's Prince music. Just my opinion. As Purplerabbithole pointed out, taste is subjective.

Not to say that brilliant guitar work is only for guitar-heavy songs, but just for the sake of a focus question, I'd like to ask something. How does this earlier comment...

"Prince's best B-sides such as
"HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City",
"She's always in my hair"..
Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. "

apply to all guitar-heavy songs released over Prince's entire career, including the way the guitar sits in the mix on these songs.

It's an especially extreme position given that "good taste" will vary. : )

rednblue said:

bonatoc said:

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

rusty1, you have this american tendency to confuse success with artistry.

Your "let's be honest" resonates only on your keyboard, but not in everyone's mind.
It always will be a failed attempt to try to persuade that your point of view should be ZEE point of view.

When you're talking about "window", "trend setter", "commercial comeback", you sound like a Warner Bros marketing intern dork, not as someone who has precise tastes in music and knows how to explain them to people with a different opinion.

Prince wasn't in it for the money. Whatever you're assuming, he simply knew how to pay the bills for PP and its operations. For the rest, he was just writing what he felt like writing.

But I've been there long ago, I get where you're getting at.
Again, art is not business. Prince just happened to exist in the 20th century, that's all. So he dealt with it the best he could.

As for artistic quality, boy oh boy you really don't know your Vault if you think he didn't produce masterpieces at the very same time where he put out albums you find disappointing.
His talent never left him. In the end, the real excitement was to be found in the live performances. Go for it.

I'm from North America (U.S.) in particular, and I've never had a cigarette or joint to my lips. I shudder to think where that may put me in your esteem. : )

sro100 said:

With a big fat joint.

rusty1 said:

The general public didn't care about prince After 2004 especially. 3121 was a flop Planet earth a flop Lotus flower/mpls didnt do much 2010 was a flop but wasn't offically released here. A lot of fans on here think Everything he did was great All i'm saying is his creative peak Was from 1982 to 87.. Look into that 85 to 87 window, Dream factory,camille, crystal ball that lead to sign o the times.. Plus had made solid albums for sheila e & The family during that era etc.. He was on fire during that last 2 yr window 85 to 87.. Everything he did was highly creative. 1982 to 87 in a zone

Jaw dropping streak of creativity happening then. Grateful to have been in high school and college at that time--Got to have my mind was blown as it was happening.

Happy, too, that there are many younger Prince fans. Wish they could have seen the '80's like I did. : )

[Edited 4/2/17 13:51pm]

purplerabbithole said:

I was just reading a commentary in which a writer said that Prince's self indulgence had its roots in SOTT but was also what led to his downfall. She said that PRince's SOTT was a great album partly because it was at least a little reigned in by WB. She implied that his lack of focus in terms of song selection was the problem later in life because no one was there to reign it in.. NOt a totally invalid point, but I would argue that individual songs should not be ruled out. In other words, Prince may have sucked (post WB, much of the time) at reigning in his musical impulses in such a way that a coherent/consistent album could be created but that doesn't mean that he stopped having creative musical ideas. His output is not like other people's. There is so much of it and it is so varied. Maybe, the way in which the works are rated and analysed should be indicative of how Prince himself was.

I think maybe people should rate his songs rather than his albums in the post WB days. Music critics and writers should stop being lazy about his later work, should dig and peruse and list his best SONGS of that period rather than being thrown off by the inclusion of Jughead next to MOney don't matter tonight in an album with a pretty Diamonds and Pearls cover. Prince stated that albums still matter (for AOA, Rainbow Children and the Truth maybe he was right). But there certainly was a period in which Prince seemed to think single songs mattered more than albums. Songs are complete units in their own right and maybe should be studied and evaluated as such. Its not like Irving Berlin was judged by how well his songs linked together thematically. I like concept albums (which lets face it, most albums have at least loose concepts/vibes stringing the songs together) but they are not everything. Irealize the quality isn't always consistent as well. But Prince's genius period being more consistent shouldn't rule out the brilliance of his later periods just becuase there are duds also apparent.

[Edited 4/2/17 11:42am]

[Edited 4/2/17 11:45am]

I totally agree about the self-indulgence. Sometimes, LESS is MORE. But then again, Prince didn't really care about how well he did commercially, especially later in his career (post WB).

--

Now to address "Jughead." So Diamonds and Pearls is my second favourite Prince album. I LOVE it, but there are 2 songs that I can do without on that album...Push and Jughead. I don't care 4 Push. It's a below average song. It does nothing 4 me...basically, I consider it filler and 90% of the time I skip it. My biggest issue with Push is its placement...between "Money Don't Matter 2 Night" and Insatiable. What is the point of separating those 2 GEMS with the totally forgettable "Push"?

--

As 4 "Jughead," I almost always skip it, but when I do listen 2 it, I just laugh at how BAD it is. "Jughead" makes NO SENSE; it's totally incoherent. The title is stupid, the words are stupid, the guitar solo is forgettable, the rapping is horrible, and Prince barely sings on it. "Jughead" is quite possibly the WORST song in Prince's entire catalogue of released material. And it is such a low-quality song that it actually DIMINISHES the overall quality of D&P. As much as I love D&P, I could never give it a 10/10 because of "Jughead."

--

There are songs on other albums that I dislike, but I can still acknowledge the artistic value of the songs. Take 4 example "Something in the Water (Does Not Compute)" and "All the Critics Love U in New York." As a matter of personal taste, I don't like those 2 songs. I don't like how they sound, it's as simple as that. But I can still acknowledge that those 2 songs are well-written, creative, and good-quality songs. "Jughead" is a totally different issue. Seriously, you go from listening to that nonsense ("Jughead") to the absolutely stellar "Money Don't Matter 2 Night." I would love 2 know what the rationale was 4 putting "Jughead" on D&P, seriously.

rusty1 said:

Prince's best B-sides such as "HCUDCMA?","17 days", "Erotic City", "She's always in my hair".. Blow away anything he did from 1989 to 2016.. Like Questlove explained.. 78 to 88 was his window where he was building his Own sound.. 1982 to 87 Prince connected with the musical audience On every level.. From 1989 forward, Prince was no longer the trend setter. He started chasing hip -hop(which he put down on "dead on it") & using a rapper who was awful. Prince had more have baked ideas but still had some good albums left in him. Let's be honest, come, chaos & disorder, NPS, Were throw away albums. I will say that the gold experience, Emancipation& TRC were good but but not great albums. 3121 had a very weak first single & people overrated that Album. The RUTJF had some good songs but tried desperately to make a commerical comeback.. With too many guest stars on it. Everybody has that that period where they are in a zone. From 1979 to 88, Prince was growing & created his own sound. It seemed as if he lost his way or didn't have that clear of A vision, after that point. Plus the fact that name change turned a lot of People off as well [Edited 4/2/17 12:17pm]

I agree with your general premise that the 1980s were his peak. But he had some really good material post 1988 that I think is arguably as good as some of the B sides, such as:

Nothing Compares 2 U

The Question of U

Diamonds and Pearls

Money Don't Matter 2 Night

Insatiable

Gett Off

7

Sweet Baby

Dark

The Love We Make

Let's Have a Baby

Future Baby Mama - won a Grammy

Black Sweat - won a Grammy

Now, regarding the "throw away" albums, I've never listened to C&D and NPS...can't get access 2 them. But Come is quite good...Dark, Papa, Race, and Solo are some of my favourite tracks off of that album. Dark is absolutely exquisite.

[Edited 4/2/17 14:40pm]

purplerabbithole said:

NO that is not what I am saying. You are the one oversimplifying and leaving out nuance. Responding with knee jerk reaction. Creating a simple narrative of... Prince could do no wrong in the 80's. Prince is shit after the 80's. Prince did miss the mark sometimes in the 80's and Prince didn't do complete shit after the 80's..is all I am saying.

His legend is still being unfolded. He just died and half his music is still hard to get. So, let's not cement his legend until the whole story is told. Yes, his 80's music overall is his best, but he didn't retire in 1988 and talent doesn't just turn off like a tap.

rusty1 said:

purplerabbithole said: The bottom line is his 80's era is why Prince is a legend. He did nothing great after 1988. He could do no wrong & had no filler albums, During his heyday. The people on this site are unreal. Ok everything Prince did was great

[Edited 4/2/17 13:00pm]

2 purplerabbithole's sentences that I underlined and bolded, .

[Edited 4/2/17 14:30pm]