Black guys having straight hair was not so much about being more feminine.

It really was about being more accepted by the "mainstream".

.

I think we'd need to understand European Standards and how being black in America shapes how people see others as well as themslves.

OldFriends4Sale said:

laurarichardson said:

You are white are just know nothing about the industry back in the day. Plenty of articles and books about this nonsense. Even the Unsung on Ray Parker Jr. Clive Davis talked about it on that program.

I'm not white laurarichardson,

I mean I could assume you are a man, because you have a really aggressive posture about yourself on message boards. But we should not assume, and pigeonhold any person into stereotypical ways of thinking to define anyone by race religion ethnicity gender or sexuality.

Let's just keep this about the topic, not each other.

Then you no nothing about the racial dynamics of the music industry. Like I said plenty of books and articles on this and an addmission by Clive Davis. Being agressive should not only be for men. You cannot make it in this tough world being a pussy willow.

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think having a perm makes a man feminized and make up being an entertainer is expected.

Jimi being a 60s hippie with the ruffled shirts and such, that many other entertainers white & black were wearing doesn't feminize him

Stevie sight or not did not have 'feminized' manners... those braids with the beads though might be, but still not
Many Jazz artists tried to 'cross over' into pop music or mainstream music in the 80s, there was a lot of fusion going on and jazz artists videos were very prominate

Miles Davis Herb Albert George Benson Kenny G George Duke David Benoit many others

so the visuals did matter big time

just saying, male artists of the black persuasion overall did not have to 'feminize' themselves

If a person was a certain way it was because it is what was in them.

I don't think having a perm makes a man feminized and make up being an entertainer is expected.

( Many black people think a dude wearing a perm is fem. Trust me. )

Read some of the books about Jimi's early days when he went back to Harlem in his Hippie garb. His harlem buddies thougt he was gay.

Jazz artist tried to cross over by changing their music not by wearing blouses.

Back in the day male black artist dialed their muscalinty down because white men did not want their women screaming over some black dude. Fem meant safe. Why do you think black men were lynched back in the day. Nine times out of ten it was just the idea that some white women was looking in their directions. Shit was insane but who ran the music industry back in the 50 and 6Os the mob. Not people who are for integration.

Yet a whole bunch of black men had ultra perms and jery curls in the 80s and when 'gansta rap' of the 90s became prominent, many of the top dogs in the game were rocking perms (and they sure did not do it to become acceptable mainstream or crossover)

.

and 70s pimps were ultra flamboyant, but not considered feminized

.

Thanks for helping my point. We are then talking about culture scenes. Many 'black' people were a part of the hippie scene, many white people were not. Jimi just went the way that was in him.

.

Again, which proves people do what is in them Jazz artists did not have to feminize themselves to gain audiences in the 80s (yeah of course we know sometimes people do a little more to get attention or fall into popularity, but you can tell those easily) Prince was doing Prince.

.

the Temptations never dialed it back...
But also if a person jibes with a style, then why can't that be them liking a look or style, why does it have to be them being pressured to be less masculine. And who said they were masculine to begin with.

.

Darker skinned men/men with stronger African ethnic looks generally would be seen as more masculine, mixed/mixed types were not seen that way. Prince had stronger European features so did not have to actually do a lot. But I still believe what we got with Prince was who he was inside. He strongly connected with women beyond sexual.

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I'm not white laurarichardson,

I mean I could assume you are a man, because you have a really aggressive posture about yourself on message boards. But we should not assume, and pigeonhold any person into stereotypical ways of thinking to define anyone by race religion ethnicity gender or sexuality.

Let's just keep this about the topic, not each other.

Then you no nothing about the racial dynamics of the music industry. Like I said plenty of books and articles on this and an addmission by Clive Davis. Being agressive should not only be for men. You cannot make it in this tough world being a pussy willow.

Then you know...'

.

Right, which mean we should not assume anything about the other person. It only limits our interactions.

.

If you cannot make it in this tough world being a pussy willow then why would a man need to feminize himself to make it in this tough world lol just a little play on words.

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

idk, it is interesting looking back over the decades and such.
At what point were male entertainers hypermasculine? Even debonair manly types in the 50s were pretty 'flamboyant' dancing and pretty makeup etc

60s 70s pop culture was really out there

Bruce remained the same 70s - 80s though

Do you see what MJ had to do to be as big as he was? He had to craft an image of an overgrown twelve year old, someone completely unthreatening in terms of sexuality. Now, that may have been a huge part of who he was but he had the image of being asexual, childlike, naive. He also had stellar damage control in the early days, I recall Joseph Jackson saying something about not trusting white people, Michael gave an interview saying it turned his stomach to hear Joseph talk like that when, truth be told, he felt the same way. So, you got a guy who has to lie about his sexuality, lie about his feelings, lie about his opinions and on top of all that, he weighed about 105 in the 80's and was physically waifish and completely non-threatening. Oh yeah, and he also most likely bleached his skin, and had plastic surgery to look white too. Rick James, Prince and Michael all had comparable talent and charisma, Rick was alone in terms of how unapologetically black and hypersexual he was, it was an image that no amount of great songs and albums could get past mtv.

We have to be careful about MJ talk on the board. But he is a complex individual... we can take this over to the MJ Sticky in the NPM forum

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

please don't assume

.

Prince is what Prince is... in the 90s he was even more, in the midst of hyper masculinity
When Prince was wearing all those suites for shows and such there are images of the private Prince wearing laces and more feminine things. It is who Prince is.

the private pics mean nothing, lisa said that prince swore early on to stay dressed like a star from the time some fans saw him in normal clothes and didn't think it was him.

No doubt about the difficulty that black males have had in crossing over. However, Prince can never be fully pigeonholed into anything. If anything, his attempts to be "hypermasculine" and being more aggressive towards women in his words in the 1990s to me is more of a commercial compromise than his 1980s androgyny. That's the way black men were portrayed in all the gangsta rap and hip hop of the era. I don't think it captured who Prince was more than Prince decked out in makeup. Indeed, it was either Wendy or Lisa that was quoted as saying that Prince in the early days of the Revolution was girly behind the scenes. Also, Prince stands in contrast to Little Richard and other feminized black men in how sexual he came across no matter what his get up was. It was a reason why so many of the ignorant masses rejected him as gay, perverted, ....fill in the blank.

Creole in New Orleans is not just French. It's Spanish too. The French founded and colonized the city in 1718. The territory was ceded to Spain 45 years later. Frenchmen St was named because it was where they took the non-complying French military and shot them.

-

The city burned 20 some years later in two fires that destroyed most of the buildings. The exception is the The Old Ursuline Convent, built by the French. The French Quarter was rebuilt in the Spanish syle with beautiful courtyards as it is today.

Of course there was a Second Line for Prince here. At jazz fest too.

[Edited 3/16/17 12:39pm]

OldFriends4Sale said:

laurarichardson said:

Then you no nothing about the racial dynamics of the music industry. Like I said plenty of books and articles on this and an addmission by Clive Davis. Being agressive should not only be for men. You cannot make it in this tough world being a pussy willow.

Then you know...'

.

Right, which mean we should not assume anything about the other person. It only limits our interactions.

.

If you cannot make it in this tough world being a pussy willow then why would a man need to feminize himself to make it in this tough world lol just a little play on words.

Because the music industry was controlled by bigoted white men. They called the shots not the artist. We are also discussing the music world not the everyday world althought in corporate american brothers do have to watch themselves a bit.

NoOneReally said:

Black guys having straight hair was not so much about being more feminine.

It really was about being more accepted by the "mainstream".

.

I think we'd need to understand European Standards and how being black in America shapes how people see others as well as themslves.

you're right, either way, i see it as lessening blackness. They say sam cooke was the very first major black artist to wear natural hair, that in itself was revolutionary.

However, the way many black men wore their hair not only imitated whiteness but also the feminine.

NoOneReally said:

Black guys having straight hair was not so much about being more feminine.

It really was about being more accepted by the "mainstream".

.

I think we'd need to understand European Standards and how being black in America shapes how people see others as well as themslves.

It is fem when you have it piled on your head like Mahailia Jackson (LOL)

PeteSilas said:

NoOneReally said:

Black guys having straight hair was not so much about being more feminine.

It really was about being more accepted by the "mainstream".

.

I think we'd need to understand European Standards and how being black in America shapes how people see others as well as themslves.

you're right, either way, i see it as lessening blackness. They say sam cooke was the very first major black artist to wear natural hair, that in itself was revolutionary.

However, the way many black men wore their hair not only imitated whiteness but also the feminine.

Sam was the first big RnB artist to let go of his perm.

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

please don't assume

.

Prince is what Prince is... in the 90s he was even more, in the midst of hyper masculinity
When Prince was wearing all those suites for shows and such there are images of the private Prince wearing laces and more feminine things. It is who Prince is.

the private pics mean nothing, lisa said that prince swore early on to stay dressed like a star from the time some fans saw him in normal clothes and didn't think it was him.

the private pics mean everything. If a man out in the world is in work boots jeans football jersey or jacket, and then when he goes home he puts on sheer underwear and blousy shirts.... that is probably who he is.

.

Again, I'm looking at images of Prince in the 2000s period with the sweet suites(very far from dressing like he did most of his career) then seeing pictures of him out on the town or at the hotel(shots taken off guard) and he is dresssing with lace wrist accessories and sheer and lace stuff and still in full make up... it is probably who he is.

.

Europe seemed to embrace Lovesexy Prince, America did not. And a lot of bruthas were like 'fuck that shit' when they went to get the Lovesexy album. Prince didn't do that album cover to cross over.

laurarichardson said:

NoOneReally said:

Black guys having straight hair was not so much about being more feminine.

It really was about being more accepted by the "mainstream".

.

I think we'd need to understand European Standards and how being black in America shapes how people see others as well as themslves.

It is fem when you have it piled on your head like Mahailia Jackson (LOL)

well this is true lol

I'm picturing Little Richard with preaching to Prince at the Purple Rain movie premiere with the little bible in his hand.

OldFriends4Sale said:

laurarichardson said:

I don't think having a perm makes a man feminized and make up being an entertainer is expected.

( Many black people think a dude wearing a perm is fem. Trust me. )

Read some of the books about Jimi's early days when he went back to Harlem in his Hippie garb. His harlem buddies thougt he was gay.

Jazz artist tried to cross over by changing their music not by wearing blouses.

Back in the day male black artist dialed their muscalinty down because white men did not want their women screaming over some black dude. Fem meant safe. Why do you think black men were lynched back in the day. Nine times out of ten it was just the idea that some white women was looking in their directions. Shit was insane but who ran the music industry back in the 50 and 6Os the mob. Not people who are for integration.

Yet a whole bunch of black men had ultra perms and jery curls in the 80s and when 'gansta rap' of the 90s became prominent, many of the top dogs in the game were rocking perms (and they sure did not do it to become acceptable mainstream or crossover)

.

and 70s pimps were ultra flamboyant, but not considered feminized

.

Thanks for helping my point. We are then talking about culture scenes. Many 'black' people were a part of the hippie scene, many white people were not. Jimi just went the way that was in him.

.

Again, which proves people do what is in them Jazz artists did not have to feminize themselves to gain audiences in the 80s (yeah of course we know sometimes people do a little more to get attention or fall into popularity, but you can tell those easily) Prince was doing Prince.

.

the Temptations never dialed it back...
But also if a person jives with a style, then why can't that be them liking a look or style, why does it have to be them being pressured to be less masculine. And who said they were masculine to begin with.

.

Darker skinned men/men with stronger African ethnic looks generally would be seen as more masculine, mixed/mixed types were not seen that way. Prince had stronger European features so did not have to actually do a lot. But I still believe what we got with Prince was who he was inside. He strongly connected with women beyond sexual.

Go read some books and come back. People on the east coast clowned Gangster rappers all day for those scary curls by the early 90s that shit was over in rap.

Pimps are very gay acting why do you think they beat the crap out of women.

Jazz is the worst selling genre of music. There is no crossover to anywhere because people are not buying that music and jazz does not relay on image.

The Temps did what Motown told them to do. One of which was no frantizing with white women in the public. Barry had strike rules about how black artist should conduct themselves he even made all artist go to charm school. Motown was about crossing over all day and night.

Everybody that worked with Prince has said a million times eveything he did was calculated and no one knew the real person. Altought I think people who knew him pre fame may have really known the real him but everybody else got a show.

OldFriends4Sale said:

laurarichardson said:

I don't think having a perm makes a man feminized and make up being an entertainer is expected.

( Many black people think a dude wearing a perm is fem. Trust me. )

Read some of the books about Jimi's early days when he went back to Harlem in his Hippie garb. His harlem buddies thougt he was gay.

Jazz artist tried to cross over by changing their music not by wearing blouses.

Back in the day male black artist dialed their muscalinty down because white men did not want their women screaming over some black dude. Fem meant safe. Why do you think black men were lynched back in the day. Nine times out of ten it was just the idea that some white women was looking in their directions. Shit was insane but who ran the music industry back in the 50 and 6Os the mob. Not people who are for integration.

Yet a whole bunch of black men had ultra perms and jery curls in the 80s and when 'gansta rap' of the 90s became prominent, many of the top dogs in the game were rocking perms (and they sure did not do it to become acceptable mainstream or crossover)

.

and 70s pimps were ultra flamboyant, but not considered feminized

.

Thanks for helping my point. We are then talking about culture scenes. Many 'black' people were a part of the hippie scene, many white people were not. Jimi just went the way that was in him.

.

Again, which proves people do what is in them Jazz artists did not have to feminize themselves to gain audiences in the 80s (yeah of course we know sometimes people do a little more to get attention or fall into popularity, but you can tell those easily) Prince was doing Prince.

.

the Temptations never dialed it back...
But also if a person jives with a style, then why can't that be them liking a look or style, why does it have to be them being pressured to be less masculine. And who said they were masculine to begin with.

.

Darker skinned men/men with stronger African ethnic looks generally would be seen as more masculine, mixed/mixed types were not seen that way. Prince had stronger European features so did not have to actually do a lot. But I still believe what we got with Prince was who he was inside. He strongly connected with women beyond sexual.

the pimp thing, ice t broke down as the man "being flyer" than the woman, it's using the womans mystique on them in his opinion. The game of most men/women relationships is the woman being set up as the object to be pursued, desired, covetted, Ice analyzed the pimps game as flipping the script on women. The pimp had to be pretty and flamboyant. Sounds like a mindfuck to me but I think Ice knew what he was talking about.

Prince was light complexioned and he got even lighteer with all the time he spent being nocturnal in the studio. I wouldn't doubt he was strongly feminine, how much? don't really know, the early pics of him he looked like a normal black kid, it wasn't until showbiz got ahold of him that he started to change everything. I always recall what my best friend told me when he asked a woman who grew up with Prince about all the wierdness, she said he wasn't nothing like that and was just a normal guy.

As far as the tempts (and motown) their image was safe, it was pop, it was really toned down in every way. It was great and it was what worked at that time but it wasn't anything threatening.

gandorb said:

PeteSilas said:

the private pics mean nothing, lisa said that prince swore early on to stay dressed like a star from the time some fans saw him in normal clothes and didn't think it was him.

No doubt about the difficulty that black males have had in crossing over. However, Prince can never be fully pigeonholed into anything. If anything, his attempts to be "hypermasculine" and being more aggressive towards women in his words in the 1990s to me is more of a commercial compromise than his 1980s androgyny. That's the way black men were portrayed in all the gangsta rap and hip hop of the era. I don't think it captured who Prince was more than Prince decked out in makeup. Indeed, it was either Wendy or Lisa that was quoted as saying that Prince in the early days of the Revolution was girly behind the scenes. Also, Prince stands in contrast to Little Richard and other feminized black men in how sexual he came across no matter what his get up was. It was a reason why so many of the ignorant masses rejected him as gay, perverted, ....fill in the blank.

Vernon Reid used to say that Prince's idea was to mix the pimp and the ho into one entity. Even in the 80's, he did plenty of macho shit on stage, plenty, he pimp walked, he always did have a deep voice. there was an old Spin article which tried to pin Prince as being a direct precursor to the macho hip hop guys in the late 80's. That's arguable but the over sexuality is usually something we think of as masculine. His 90 rap posturings did escalate what he was already doing but I don't believe anyone confused him with ll cool j or whoever. He tried to do that but most people were not convinced by it.

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yet a whole bunch of black men had ultra perms and jery curls in the 80s and when 'gansta rap' of the 90s became prominent, many of the top dogs in the game were rocking perms (and they sure did not do it to become acceptable mainstream or crossover)

.

and 70s pimps were ultra flamboyant, but not considered feminized

.

Thanks for helping my point. We are then talking about culture scenes. Many 'black' people were a part of the hippie scene, many white people were not. Jimi just went the way that was in him.

.

Again, which proves people do what is in them Jazz artists did not have to feminize themselves to gain audiences in the 80s (yeah of course we know sometimes people do a little more to get attention or fall into popularity, but you can tell those easily) Prince was doing Prince.

.

the Temptations never dialed it back...
But also if a person jives with a style, then why can't that be them liking a look or style, why does it have to be them being pressured to be less masculine. And who said they were masculine to begin with.

.

Darker skinned men/men with stronger African ethnic looks generally would be seen as more masculine, mixed/mixed types were not seen that way. Prince had stronger European features so did not have to actually do a lot. But I still believe what we got with Prince was who he was inside. He strongly connected with women beyond sexual.

Go read some books and come back. People on the east coast clowned Gangster rappers all day for those scary curls by the early 90s that shit was over in rap.

Pimps are very gay acting why do you think they beat the crap out of women.

Jazz is the worst selling genre of music. There is no crossover to anywhere because people are not buying that music and jazz does not relay on image.

The Temps did what Motown told them to do. One of which was no frantizing with white women in the public. Barry had strike rules about how black artist should conduct themselves he even made all artist go to charm school. Motown was about crossing over all day and night.

Everybody that worked with Prince has said a million times eveything he did was calculated and no one knew the real person. Altought I think people who knew him pre fame may have really known the real him but everybody else got a show.

I don't have to read a book on it. People could clown them all day long, and then were probably rocking the look a year or two later.
The point is these guys in an Ultra Masculine scene in the 90s were wearing perms, and it wasn't to cross over or be accepted by (whites) or mainstream culture

lol omg gay acting ... beat women

Jazz isn't worst selling, it is very stable actually. Jazz festivals draw some of the biggest diverse crowds too. But again we're are talking about that 80s period when there was a lot of musical fusions going on ie Herb Albert (jazz trumpeter) ie Diamonds (Janet Jackson)

But did the Temptations dial anything down(what does anyone know of their private life expressions) I mean hell Marvin Gayes father was a pastor who was a cross dresser.

OldFriends4Sale said:

laurarichardson said:

Go read some books and come back. People on the east coast clowned Gangster rappers all day for those scary curls by the early 90s that shit was over in rap.

Pimps are very gay acting why do you think they beat the crap out of women.

Jazz is the worst selling genre of music. There is no crossover to anywhere because people are not buying that music and jazz does not relay on image.

The Temps did what Motown told them to do. One of which was no frantizing with white women in the public. Barry had strike rules about how black artist should conduct themselves he even made all artist go to charm school. Motown was about crossing over all day and night.

Everybody that worked with Prince has said a million times eveything he did was calculated and no one knew the real person. Altought I think people who knew him pre fame may have really known the real him but everybody else got a show.

I don't have to read a book on it. People could clown them all day long, and then were probably rocking the look a year or two later.
The point is these guys in an Ultra Masculine scene in the 90s were wearing perms, and it wasn't to cross over or be accepted by (whites) or mainstream culture

lol omg gay acting ... beat women

Jazz isn't worst selling, it is very stable actually. Jazz festivals draw some of the biggest diverse crowds too. But again we're are talking about that 80s period when there was a lot of musical fusions going on ie Herb Albert (jazz trumpeter) ie Diamonds (Janet Jackson)

But did the Temptations dial anything down(what does anyone know of their private life expressions) I mean hell Marvin Gayes father was a pastor who was a cross dresser.

marvin was a crossdresser too, i heard this before it was public via my best friend who knew one of Marv's old girlfriends. any you are quite correct about their private lives, plenty of domestic violence, drugs, alcoholism and craziness but there was no internet to blare all that to everyone and Barry Gordy only took so much from them.

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yet a whole bunch of black men had ultra perms and jery curls in the 80s and when 'gansta rap' of the 90s became prominent, many of the top dogs in the game were rocking perms (and they sure did not do it to become acceptable mainstream or crossover)

.

and 70s pimps were ultra flamboyant, but not considered feminized

.

Thanks for helping my point. We are then talking about culture scenes. Many 'black' people were a part of the hippie scene, many white people were not. Jimi just went the way that was in him.

.

Again, which proves people do what is in them Jazz artists did not have to feminize themselves to gain audiences in the 80s (yeah of course we know sometimes people do a little more to get attention or fall into popularity, but you can tell those easily) Prince was doing Prince.

.

the Temptations never dialed it back...
But also if a person jives with a style, then why can't that be them liking a look or style, why does it have to be them being pressured to be less masculine. And who said they were masculine to begin with.

.

Darker skinned men/men with stronger African ethnic looks generally would be seen as more masculine, mixed/mixed types were not seen that way. Prince had stronger European features so did not have to actually do a lot. But I still believe what we got with Prince was who he was inside. He strongly connected with women beyond sexual.

the pimp thing, ice t broke down as the man "being flyer" than the woman, it's using the womans mystique on them in his opinion. The game of most men/women relationships is the woman being set up as the object to be pursued, desired, covetted, Ice analyzed the pimps game as flipping the script on women. The pimp had to be pretty and flamboyant. Sounds like a mindfuck to me but I think Ice knew what he was talking about.

Prince was light complexioned and he got even lighteer with all the time he spent being nocturnal in the studio. I wouldn't doubt he was strongly feminine, how much? don't really know, the early pics of him he looked like a normal black kid, it wasn't until showbiz got ahold of him that he started to change everything. I always recall what my best friend told me when he asked a woman who grew up with Prince about all the wierdness, she said he wasn't nothing like that and was just a normal guy.

As far as the tempts (and motown) their image was safe, it was pop, it was really toned down in every way. It was great and it was what worked at that time but it wasn't anything threatening.

Yep, and as a straight man I still bow down and say Prince was 1 pretty muthaF...

well yeah a pimp trying to turn a woman out is a mindfuck.

but we also know growing up in the home he did, conservative father, both parents into some church denomination, most kids while home would not express behaviour that would be assumed to be 'queer' in homes neighborhoods or cultures they know would be adverse to that.

in the early 80s when Prince refuted that he was gay while displaying a porno mag on the table, if he was concerned about that kind of labelling, he would have changed. He didn't have to dress the way he did in 79 80 81 etc

I have a friend who is gay NOW, I knew since the mid 80s, I would not think he was back then, but he always was. Especially when living at home, but definately wasn't going to let it out. When his mother found out by late 89 early 90, as expected he was put out of the house.

We don't know if Prince tried on things at home before he was famous... make up, a lace scarf etc

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't have to read a book on it. People could clown them all day long, and then were probably rocking the look a year or two later.
The point is these guys in an Ultra Masculine scene in the 90s were wearing perms, and it wasn't to cross over or be accepted by (whites) or mainstream culture

lol omg gay acting ... beat women

Jazz isn't worst selling, it is very stable actually. Jazz festivals draw some of the biggest diverse crowds too. But again we're are talking about that 80s period when there was a lot of musical fusions going on ie Herb Albert (jazz trumpeter) ie Diamonds (Janet Jackson)

But did the Temptations dial anything down(what does anyone know of their private life expressions) I mean hell Marvin Gayes father was a pastor who was a cross dresser.

marvin was a crossdresser too, i heard this before it was public via my best friend who knew one of Marv's old girlfriends. any you are quite correct about their private lives, plenty of domestic violence, drugs, alcoholism and craziness but there was no internet to blare all that to everyone and Barry Gordy only took so much from them.

I did not know that about Marvin

I also think of Bruce Jenner... who would have thought, all these years.

Prince had a lot of songs that touched on 'gender bending'

I'm think of Mazarati's song Suzy (Paisley Parks Dude Looks Like a Lady)

OldFriends4Sale said:

PeteSilas said:

the pimp thing, ice t broke down as the man "being flyer" than the woman, it's using the womans mystique on them in his opinion. The game of most men/women relationships is the woman being set up as the object to be pursued, desired, covetted, Ice analyzed the pimps game as flipping the script on women. The pimp had to be pretty and flamboyant. Sounds like a mindfuck to me but I think Ice knew what he was talking about.

Prince was light complexioned and he got even lighteer with all the time he spent being nocturnal in the studio. I wouldn't doubt he was strongly feminine, how much? don't really know, the early pics of him he looked like a normal black kid, it wasn't until showbiz got ahold of him that he started to change everything. I always recall what my best friend told me when he asked a woman who grew up with Prince about all the wierdness, she said he wasn't nothing like that and was just a normal guy.

As far as the tempts (and motown) their image was safe, it was pop, it was really toned down in every way. It was great and it was what worked at that time but it wasn't anything threatening.

Yep, and as a straight man I still bow down and say Prince was 1 pretty muthaF...

well yeah a pimp trying to turn a woman out is a mindfuck.

but we also know growing up in the home he did, conservative father, both parents into some church denomination, most kids while home would not express behaviour that would be assumed to be 'queer' in homes neighborhoods or cultures they know would be adverse to that.

in the early 80s when Prince refuted that he was gay while displaying a porno mag on the table, if he was concerned about that kind of labelling, he would have changed. He didn't have to dress the way he did in 79 80 81 etc

I have a friend who is gay NOW, I knew since the mid 80s, I would not think he was back then, but he always was. Especially when living at home, but definately wasn't going to let it out. When his mother found out by late 89 early 90, as expected he was put out of the house.

We don't know if Prince tried on things at home before he was famous... make up, a lace scarf etc

prince said something interesting back in the 80's for whatever reason, i thought he was building his mystique but all these years later, i think it was true. He described his father as the serious side of himself, the worker and his mother as the loud side of himself. Hell, some of the pics i've seen of mattie, she looks like a transexual herself. And as far as the house rules, by the time prince was a star, he made everyone, including his daddy wear that girly shit.

OldFriends4Sale said:

PeteSilas said:

marvin was a crossdresser too, i heard this before it was public via my best friend who knew one of Marv's old girlfriends. any you are quite correct about their private lives, plenty of domestic violence, drugs, alcoholism and craziness but there was no internet to blare all that to everyone and Barry Gordy only took so much from them.

I did not know that about Marvin

I also think of Bruce Jenner... who would have thought, all these years.

That has come out about Marvin since my best friend revealed it to me but honestly, Marvin always had a very strong feminity about him, you could see it in his movements and you could hear it in his music, i actually think it was genuine with him, Prince and others (was gonna say MJ) it was an act somewhat. Marvin was one of the most feminine straight men I think i've ever seen.

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I did not know that about Marvin

I also think of Bruce Jenner... who would have thought, all these years.

That has come out about Marvin since my best friend revealed it to me but honestly, Marvin always had a very strong feminity about him, you could see it in his movements and you could hear it in his music, i actually think it was genuine with him, Prince and others (was gonna say MJ) it was an act somewhat. Marvin was one of the most feminine straight men I think i've ever seen.

have to look into that about Marvin. I know his movements while performing were really 'free' I never thought about it at the times a feminine. His expression reminded me of a lot of rock artists like Led Zepplins Robert Plant. David Lee Roth and Lenny Kravitz also has that swag

.

I just think 'you cannot be stiff and paranoid about this stuff if you are going to be a rock artist'

.

I think being the gemini he is he just has a comfort with the masculine and feminine and being an artist a rock musician even, gives more leway for it. I guess we all can color up things more or less if we choose.

OldFriends4Sale said:

laurarichardson said:

Go read some books and come back. People on the east coast clowned Gangster rappers all day for those scary curls by the early 90s that shit was over in rap.

Pimps are very gay acting why do you think they beat the crap out of women.

Jazz is the worst selling genre of music. There is no crossover to anywhere because people are not buying that music and jazz does not relay on image.

The Temps did what Motown told them to do. One of which was no frantizing with white women in the public. Barry had strike rules about how black artist should conduct themselves he even made all artist go to charm school. Motown was about crossing over all day and night.

Everybody that worked with Prince has said a million times eveything he did was calculated and no one knew the real person. Altought I think people who knew him pre fame may have really known the real him but everybody else got a show.

I don't have to read a book on it. People could clown them all day long, and then were probably rocking the look a year or two later.
The point is these guys in an Ultra Masculine scene in the 90s were wearing perms, and it wasn't to cross over or be accepted by (whites) or mainstream culture

lol omg gay acting ... beat women

Jazz isn't worst selling, it is very stable actually. Jazz festivals draw some of the biggest diverse crowds too. But again we're are talking about that 80s period when there was a lot of musical fusions going on ie Herb Albert (jazz trumpeter) ie Diamonds (Janet Jackson)

But did the Temptations dial anything down(what does anyone know of their private life expressions) I mean hell Marvin Gayes father was a pastor who was a cross dresser.

Lord help us. I worked in a record store on the east coast. When ganster rap came out everyday I worked people would come in that store and clown those guys in a few years everybody was wearing a high top fade and later dude's went bald. How old are you because you seem lost?

Oh and gangster rap did not start out crossing over. Yes, Jazz is the worst selling genre of music look it up. Diamonds is not jazz by the way that is a pop song with a women singing no one was paying attention to Herb Alpert.

The Temps dialed it down in public becaue Barry would have given them the boot and later in the 70s he pretty much stuck them in RnB land and stopped promoting them as pop group altogeher.

Marvin's dad was not in a singing group and he was an abusive asshole who should have been in a mental instituion.

---- A lot of pimps grew up in the life and lot have been sexually abused and many are known to be gay or child molesters.

[Edited 3/16/17 8:23am]

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yep, and as a straight man I still bow down and say Prince was 1 pretty muthaF...

well yeah a pimp trying to turn a woman out is a mindfuck.

but we also know growing up in the home he did, conservative father, both parents into some church denomination, most kids while home would not express behaviour that would be assumed to be 'queer' in homes neighborhoods or cultures they know would be adverse to that.

in the early 80s when Prince refuted that he was gay while displaying a porno mag on the table, if he was concerned about that kind of labelling, he would have changed. He didn't have to dress the way he did in 79 80 81 etc

I have a friend who is gay NOW, I knew since the mid 80s, I would not think he was back then, but he always was. Especially when living at home, but definately wasn't going to let it out. When his mother found out by late 89 early 90, as expected he was put out of the house.

We don't know if Prince tried on things at home before he was famous... make up, a lace scarf etc

prince said something interesting back in the 80's for whatever reason, i thought he was building his mystique but all these years later, i think it was true. He described his father as the serious side of himself, the worker and his mother as the loud side of himself. Hell, some of the pics i've seen of mattie, she looks like a transexual herself. And as far as the house rules, by the time prince was a star, he made everyone, including his daddy wear that girly shit.

I do not think his mom looked like a tranny I think she was very pretty and she went on to have other children so no tranny issues.

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yep, and as a straight man I still bow down and say Prince was 1 pretty muthaF...

well yeah a pimp trying to turn a woman out is a mindfuck.

but we also know growing up in the home he did, conservative father, both parents into some church denomination, most kids while home would not express behaviour that would be assumed to be 'queer' in homes neighborhoods or cultures they know would be adverse to that.

in the early 80s when Prince refuted that he was gay while displaying a porno mag on the table, if he was concerned about that kind of labelling, he would have changed. He didn't have to dress the way he did in 79 80 81 etc

I have a friend who is gay NOW, I knew since the mid 80s, I would not think he was back then, but he always was. Especially when living at home, but definately wasn't going to let it out. When his mother found out by late 89 early 90, as expected he was put out of the house.

We don't know if Prince tried on things at home before he was famous... make up, a lace scarf etc

prince said something interesting back in the 80's for whatever reason, i thought he was building his mystique but all these years later, i think it was true. He described his father as the serious side of himself, the worker and his mother as the loud side of himself. Hell, some of the pics i've seen of mattie, she looks like a transexual herself. And as far as the house rules, by the time prince was a star, he made everyone, including his daddy wear that girly shit.

Yeah, I think (outside of the abuse) that the parents in Purple Rain he reflected some truth into them. The father wanting a more traditional conservative home, and the mother wanting to be wild and loose and have fun.

Makes me wonder how much truth is in Papa (Come 1994)

I want to see pictures of Mattie when she was younger, she must have been a looker.

lol yes, that is one thing I loved about Prince, especially in the 80s. If you came uptown you had to put on the garb of the purple kingdom

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't have to read a book on it. People could clown them all day long, and then were probably rocking the look a year or two later.
The point is these guys in an Ultra Masculine scene in the 90s were wearing perms, and it wasn't to cross over or be accepted by (whites) or mainstream culture

lol omg gay acting ... beat women

Jazz isn't worst selling, it is very stable actually. Jazz festivals draw some of the biggest diverse crowds too. But again we're are talking about that 80s period when there was a lot of musical fusions going on ie Herb Albert (jazz trumpeter) ie Diamonds (Janet Jackson)

But did the Temptations dial anything down(what does anyone know of their private life expressions) I mean hell Marvin Gayes father was a pastor who was a cross dresser.

marvin was a crossdresser too, i heard this before it was public via my best friend who knew one of Marv's old girlfriends. any you are quite correct about their private lives, plenty of domestic violence, drugs, alcoholism and craziness but there was no internet to blare all that to everyone and Barry Gordy only took so much from them.

I never heard about Marvin being a crossdresser but his dad was and people said that scared him. Michael Eric Dyson wrote a book about Marvin and revelved that Marvin was raped by his uncle who later went to jail for moslesting children. Marvin's dad use to beat all the kids, walked around in a women's house coat and refused to work. A total nut.

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't have to read a book on it. People could clown them all day long, and then were probably rocking the look a year or two later.
The point is these guys in an Ultra Masculine scene in the 90s were wearing perms, and it wasn't to cross over or be accepted by (whites) or mainstream culture

lol omg gay acting ... beat women

Jazz isn't worst selling, it is very stable actually. Jazz festivals draw some of the biggest diverse crowds too. But again we're are talking about that 80s period when there was a lot of musical fusions going on ie Herb Albert (jazz trumpeter) ie Diamonds (Janet Jackson)

But did the Temptations dial anything down(what does anyone know of their private life expressions) I mean hell Marvin Gayes father was a pastor who was a cross dresser.

Lord help us. I worked in a record store on the east coast. When ganster rap came out everyday I worked people would come in that store and clown those guys in a few years everybody was wearing a high top fade and later dude's went bald. How old are you because you seem lost?

Oh and gangster rap did not start out crossing over. Yes, Jazz is the worst selling genre of music look it up. Diamonds is not jazz by the way that is a pop song with a women singing no one was paying attention to Herb Alpert.

The Temps dialed it down in public becaue Barry would have given them the boot and later in the 70s he pretty much stuck them in RnB land and stopped promoting them as pop group altogeher.

Marvin's dad was not in a singing group and he was an abusive asshole who should have been in a mental instituion.

---- A lot of pimps grew up in the life and lot have been sexually abused and many are known to be gay or child molesters.

[Edited 3/16/17 8:23am]

Yeah on the East Coast, but on the West Coast it was a whole different scene. Which again is why those guys from Eazy E Ice Cub etc were ultra permed and soul glo-ed in the 90s when the curl was out of the scene on the east coast in the 90s

.

Of course Ganster rap did not start out crossing over, because they never intended to.
That is why wearing perms and jurey curls wasn't about that

.

I'm not lost, your are just mangling up time zones.

What people were rocking on the east coast and what the east coast rappers were doing was something very different from west coast rap culture

.

when you tell me how the guys in the Temptations were in their private lives, then we can talk about if they dialed it down or not. It's not like Black men were a bunch of wild n loose hypersexual gyrating beings. Many were very straight laced and 'conservative in mannerisms and style

OldFriends4Sale said:

PeteSilas said:

That has come out about Marvin since my best friend revealed it to me but honestly, Marvin always had a very strong feminity about him, you could see it in his movements and you could hear it in his music, i actually think it was genuine with him, Prince and others (was gonna say MJ) it was an act somewhat. Marvin was one of the most feminine straight men I think i've ever seen.

have to look into that about Marvin. I know his movements while performing were really 'free' I never thought about it at the times a feminine. His expression reminded me of a lot of rock artists like Led Zepplins Robert Plant. David Lee Roth and Lenny Kravitz also has that swag

.

I just think 'you cannot be stiff and paranoid about this stuff if you are going to be a rock artist'

.

I think being the gemini he is he just has a comfort with the masculine and feminine and being an artist a rock musician even, gives more leway for it. I guess we all can color up things more or less if we choose.

the best artists,the best athletes and i'm sure the most whole human beings have a healthy mix of masculine and feminine. The best boxers usually have a strong femininity to their style, ali didn't say he was handsome, he said he was pretty and he fought that way too. When you have both to draw from you get the best of both. Marvin was a hysteric, known to have crippling stage fright, he was plagued by doubts and yet at the same time, he also thought he was the greatest singer in the world that's the kind of dichotomy which some people have said that Prince learned from. Miles Davis said it, Jesse Johnson said he introduced Prince to Marvin. Before I was into Marvin, I didn't understand it but Marvin was everything Prince became, the whole religious/profane stuff. Marvin did it first and maybe even more deftly. Prince had the subltety of a trainwreck in the 80's.

laurarichardson said:

PeteSilas said:

marvin was a crossdresser too, i heard this before it was public via my best friend who knew one of Marv's old girlfriends. any you are quite correct about their private lives, plenty of domestic violence, drugs, alcoholism and craziness but there was no internet to blare all that to everyone and Barry Gordy only took so much from them.

I never heard about Marvin being a crossdresser but his dad was and people said that scared him. Michael Eric Dyson wrote a book about Marvin and revelved that Marvin was raped by his uncle who later went to jail for moslesting children. Marvin's dad use to beat all the kids, walked around in a women's house coat and refused to work. A total nut.

ya, marvin's dad was a mess, it's disturbing to watch old interviews with both of them, seeing the old man with curly hair. The crossdressing of both is well documented by this point though. Also, Marvin was fond of playing headgames with women, my best friend's source told him that marvin wanted her to call his other women and tell them he was with her. What really surprised me in the dyson book was that Marvin was physically abusive, I would have thought that he'd have done everything to avoid being like his father but i guess he broke Jan's ribs at some point. In his first marriage he was bullied by Barry's sister for the most part. either way, I think of prince's "strange relationship" when i hear about those marriages. The first wife and he would greet each other warmly even as they were dragging each other through the courts. Marvin was just as nutty as his daddy but he wasn't as abusive. He's hilarious to me, I always smile when I watch his interviews, dude's a character.