PeteSilas said:

LBrent said:

This is why there are some who were saying that President Obama wasn't the first Black president cuz Abraham Lincoln was Melungeon.

there was another president rumored to be black, calvin coolidge I think but it may have been hoover. It's strange but just about everyone I've ever known has had some idea of having a different race in them, everyone. My family, the indian side believe some french blood is in there despite the lack of evidence and I had a close white friend who asked her mom about any black blood because she'd have a kinky hair sprout out of her head. It's a strange phenomena and I think it's just something that often gets rumoured about in families.

Could be.

I was watching some of those DNA reveal videos on YouTube and there were so many folks who had no idea they were mixed with this or that.

laurarichardson said:

LBrent said:

Wait.

Who said it? Elvis or P?

[Edited 3/16/17 3:53am]

--- Prince said it in this interview http://beacon-p.tumblr.co...tales-from

I'm sorta lost in this conversation now.

I never said anything about P beleiving in the "one drop rule".

LBrent said:

I am saying he mentions it in this article and I wondered if it had something to do with his background in Louisiana.

laurarichardson said:

LBrent said:

I'm sorta lost in this conversation now.

I never said anything about P beleiving in the "one drop rule".

I am saying he mentions it in this article and I wondered if it had something to do with his background in Louisiana.

Ohhhhh. Gotcha.

I must need more coffee. Lol

laurarichardson said:

LBrent said:

Wait.

Who said it? Elvis or P?

[Edited 3/16/17 3:53am]

--- Prince said it in this interview http://beacon-p.tumblr.co...tales-from

Prince was in his crossover phase, he went about face later, i'm sure you know that laura. He was proudly black later on and only got more and more so. I often wonder if he regretted all the compromises, the makeup, the feminizing, the choosing lesser white musicians over better black ones for image. It paid off but it's damn near impossible to really shake something like that loose once you do it, to this day people still think of him in terms of being gay, being deviant, wanting to be white when he was most likely just very hungry musician willing to do anything including sacrifice his own racial identity as well as his health for fame.

PeteSilas said:

laurarichardson said:

LBrent said: --- Prince said it in this interview http://beacon-p.tumblr.co...tales-from

Prince was in his crossover phase, he went about face later, i'm sure you know that laura. He was proudly black later on and only got more and more so. I often wonder if he regretted all the compromises, the makeup, the feminizing, the choosing lesser white musicians over better black ones for image. It paid off but it's damn near impossible to really shake something like that loose once you do it, to this day people still think of him in terms of being gay, being deviant, wanting to be white when he was most likely just very hungry musician willing to do anything including sacrifice his own racial identity as well as his health for fame.

I just read the article. It's one of those early ones where the interveiwer says P's Mom is Italian.

Please tell me we're past believing that nonsense. Sheesh

It's like it never goes away.

LBrent said:

laurarichardson said:

LBrent said: I am saying he mentions it in this article and I wondered if it had something to do with his background in Louisiana.

Ohhhhh. Gotcha.

I must need more coffee. Lol

my black stepdad used to tell us kids about that rule all the time, here we are just 7 years old and he's drilling this into us and telling us how it goes for being Indian too so therefore even though mom was white, we're completely indian in america, which somewhat true. My point would be that the racial neurosis of the south and of the usa has a long, long reach, it's not surprising that prince would mention it. I didn't see him mention "one drop" in the interview but he referred to the idea which was cooked up by racist whites who considered any thing other than white as to be completely corrupted. I've read statistics that 21 percent of all white people have black in them, i have no knowledge of how accurate that is.

LBrent said:

PeteSilas said:

Prince was in his crossover phase, he went about face later, i'm sure you know that laura. He was proudly black later on and only got more and more so. I often wonder if he regretted all the compromises, the makeup, the feminizing, the choosing lesser white musicians over better black ones for image. It paid off but it's damn near impossible to really shake something like that loose once you do it, to this day people still think of him in terms of being gay, being deviant, wanting to be white when he was most likely just very hungry musician willing to do anything including sacrifice his own racial identity as well as his health for fame.

I just read the article. It's one of those early ones where the interveiwer says P's Mom is Italian.

Please tell me we're past believing that nonsense. Sheesh

It's like it never goes away.

that interview was even earlier than the one where he claimed his mom was italian, people still think this, sometimes someone will mention it on here and we correct them. Jill Jones was in fact Italian and Black and prince said this right after meeting her so she supposed that she gave him the idea so he could pass more easily.

LBrent said:

PeteSilas said:

interesting, wonder how much of this he knew? Alex Hahn is supposedly doing some geneology for his new book. Prince has said that they knew less about his mothers side. Proud that he's got some Indian in him. Elvis had to lines of cherokee in him, a jewish grandmother with the rest looking to be scottish/irish and german despite persisten rumours that he had some black in his lineage.

Wasn't Elvis supposedly Melungeon like Abraham Lincoln?

I'm digging U LBrent, U R hip 2 the Melungeons

PeteSilas said:

laurarichardson said:

LBrent said: --- Prince said it in this interview http://beacon-p.tumblr.co...tales-from

Prince was in his crossover phase, he went about face later, i'm sure you know that laura. He was proudly black later on and only got more and more so. I often wonder if he regretted all the compromises, the makeup, the feminizing, the choosing lesser white musicians over better black ones for image. It paid off but it's damn near impossible to really shake something like that loose once you do it, to this day people still think of him in terms of being gay, being deviant, wanting to be white when he was most likely just very hungry musician willing to do anything including sacrifice his own racial identity as well as his health for fame.

regret the feminizing?

PeteSilas said:

--I think he was proudly black the whole time as we know he supported black causes the whole of his carreer. I am not sure how old your are but back in the early 80s no one in the industry had any time for promoter brothers as crossover artist plus Prince took a lot of ideas from the new wave groups and glam rock. He knew that if he did not promote himself a certain way he was never going to make it as a crossover artist and I do think he was a hungry musician who was going to make it no matter what.

OldFriends4Sale said:

PeteSilas said:

Prince was in his crossover phase, he went about face later, i'm sure you know that laura. He was proudly black later on and only got more and more so. I often wonder if he regretted all the compromises, the makeup, the feminizing, the choosing lesser white musicians over better black ones for image. It paid off but it's damn near impossible to really shake something like that loose once you do it, to this day people still think of him in terms of being gay, being deviant, wanting to be white when he was most likely just very hungry musician willing to do anything including sacrifice his own racial identity as well as his health for fame.

regret the feminizing?

i mean the lessening of his masculine traits just like many black artists had to do before him, just to be accepted. he seemed at least ambivalent about a lot of things, we all can remember when he had that interview excorciating gay people a few years ago and he has tried to play off the gender stuff by saying it was "rock and roll" even as he continued to wear makeup in some way right to the end. I'm sure he had to be embarrassed by a lot of things he did and regretted it, that's almost a given because everyone does that, what i wonder is how much did he regret things? He hints at how much on AOA, the album.

PeteSilas said:

--He stole that from Jill Jones (Lol)

PeteSilas said:

--I do not think he regretted it because he was still doing it.

laurarichardson said:

PeteSilas said:

Prince was in his crossover phase, he went about face later, i'm sure you know that laura. He was proudly black later on and only got more and more so. I often wonder if he regretted all the compromises, the makeup, the feminizing, the choosing lesser white musicians over better black ones for image. It paid off but it's damn near impossible to really shake something like that loose once you do it, to this day people still think of him in terms of being gay, being deviant, wanting to be white when he was most likely just very hungry musician willing to do anything including sacrifice his own racial identity as well as his health for fame.

--I think he was proudly black the whole time as we know he supported black causes the whole of his carreer. I am not sure how old your are but back in the early 80s no one in the industry had any time for promoter brothers as crossover artist plus Prince took a lot of ideas from the new wave groups and glam rock. He knew that if he did not promote himself a certain way he was never going to make it as a crossover artist and I do think he was a hungry musician who was going to make it no matter what.

i was there with you laura, i remember how it all went down. most of the black artists did things to distance themselves from their roots in those days, it was customary for the new black artist to say something like "i don't want to be a black artist, I want to be an artist who is black" whether it was Prince, Whitney or Michael. All of them had to deny parts of themselves to make it. Prince and Michael were never as soft and girly as their images and whitney had to repress her whole sexuality as well as her roots with the productions she was given. Prince was the only one out of those who really made it all the way back home, I think Michael and whitney made steps towards that but they didn't quite make it and the cracks certainly showed. When people compromise, its very hard to ever undo what's done, the psychic damage, the changes in self-perception that occur rarely undo themselves. Some people still believe Elvis never recovered from being made a chump of out of the army. We all have to compromise, all of us, the stakes are a lot higher for public figures.

OldFriends4Sale said:

LBrent said:

Wasn't Elvis supposedly Melungeon like Abraham Lincoln?

I'm digging U LBrent, U R hip 2 the Melungeons

Aw thanx, darlin.

Yup, I'm a repository for all sorts of random and often obscure information. The side effect of my misspent youth, I suppose.

LBrent said:

FlyOnTheWall said:

I hope the 318 and the 504 don't have to come to blows over Prince!!!

We could always settle things with beans & rice and gumbo...

Yum

That's one fight I want to be a part of. I will bring the crayfish etouffee and the beignets for the spectactors

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

regret the feminizing?

i mean the lessening of his masculine traits just like many black artists had to do before him, just to be accepted. he seemed at least ambivalent about a lot of things, we all can remember when he had that interview excorciating gay people a few years ago and he has tried to play off the gender stuff by saying it was "rock and roll" even as he continued to wear makeup in some way right to the end. I'm sure he had to be embarrassed by a lot of things he did and regretted it, that's almost a given because everyone does that, what i wonder is how much did he regret things? He hints at how much on AOA, the album.

I don't know, I don't think it was a forced thing, pretty natural.

I think if he fought it later it was because of a combination of his Jehovah's Witness indoctrination and being around men who had homophobic tendencies.

.

I don't think 'lessening of masculine traits' was something black male artists had to do.
James Brown didn't Stevie Wonder didn't Jimi Hendrix didn't no jazz artists
Little Richard is just what he was
I mean disco and the 70s had a lot of fluid expressions black white or other... he did gleam from non-black artists as well and women Joni Mitchell & Chaka Khan, not to mention he adored and admired 1940s Starletts (not Stars)

.

and Prince's 'less manly' expression seemed to increase into the period where pop culture all around increased in it's hyper masculine expression.

OldFriends4Sale said:

//James Brown had a perm and cakes of make-up on his face. There are pics of Jimi were what looks to be a blouse and some stories that he was no-sexual at least that is how he got of the army. Stevie can't see so he would not know how to glam himself up. Jazz artist do not have to sell an image and even if it they did it would not make people buy the music.

laurarichardson said:

--If you wanted to crossover in the 80s you dialed your masculinity down a tad. Alright I never thought Prince was putting a gay vibe.

OldFriends4Sale said:

PeteSilas said:

i mean the lessening of his masculine traits just like many black artists had to do before him, just to be accepted. he seemed at least ambivalent about a lot of things, we all can remember when he had that interview excorciating gay people a few years ago and he has tried to play off the gender stuff by saying it was "rock and roll" even as he continued to wear makeup in some way right to the end. I'm sure he had to be embarrassed by a lot of things he did and regretted it, that's almost a given because everyone does that, what i wonder is how much did he regret things? He hints at how much on AOA, the album.

I don't know, I don't think it was a forced thing, pretty natural.

I think if he fought it later it was because of a combination of his Jehovah's Witness indoctrination and being around men who had homophobic tendencies.

.

I don't think 'lessening of masculine traits' was something black male artists had to do.
James Brown didn't Stevie Wonder didn't Jimi Hendrix didn't no jazz artists
Little Richard is just what he was
I mean disco and the 70s had a lot of fluid expressions black white or other... he did gleam from non-black artists as well and women Joni Mitchell & Chaka Khan, not to mention he adored and admired 1940s Starletts (not Stars) well Charlie Chapman was an influence

.

and Prince's 'less manly' expression seemed to increase into the period where pop culture all around increased in it's hyper masculine expression.

it's something that gooes back, billy eckstine once complained that when he started out, most black singers with a voice like his didn't stand a chance and then cited clyde mcphatter as what was the common black voice. Little Richard is actually shocking in how conscious he was about not scaring white adults and crossing over, he knew exactly what he was doing. Although Little richard was already gay and flamboyant. It's something that goes back, is pervasive, I guess James was never truly a crossover artist but even he wore pancake makeup, straightened his hair and encouraged gay rumors in his prime. Jimi never wore makeup and I can't say he ever came across as feminine but he sure did where womens stuff, the boas and clothes. It hasn't changed today, i just heard yesterday some rapper showed up in a dress at the grammy's. America is petrified of black masculinity. It's not always sexual either, a lot of times an image of a fat guy, or a guy like lionel richie, you know, the safe black guy, can get over. Sly Stone got over not by wearing makeup but by singing pop songs about unity, it all came back and haunted him a few short years later as he released the brilliant 'there's a riot goin' on" and questioned his ability to compromise with a line like "dying young is hard to take, selling out is harder". It's a real thing, I can only assume you're white to deny it.

gandorb said:

FlyOnTheWall said:

I hope the 318 and the 504 don't have to come to blows over Prince!!!

LBrent said:

We could always settle things with beans & rice and gumbo...

Yum

That's one fight I want to be a part of. I will bring the crayfish etouffee and the beignets for the spectactors

I'm always down for some chicory coffee and pecan pralines.

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't know, I don't think it was a forced thing, pretty natural.

I think if he fought it later it was because of a combination of his Jehovah's Witness indoctrination and being around men who had homophobic tendencies.

.

I don't think 'lessening of masculine traits' was something black male artists had to do.
James Brown didn't Stevie Wonder didn't Jimi Hendrix didn't no jazz artists
Little Richard is just what he was
I mean disco and the 70s had a lot of fluid expressions black white or other... he did gleam from non-black artists as well and women Joni Mitchell & Chaka Khan, not to mention he adored and admired 1940s Starletts (not Stars) well Charlie Chapman was an influence

.

and Prince's 'less manly' expression seemed to increase into the period where pop culture all around increased in it's hyper masculine expression.

//James Brown had a perm and cakes of make-up on his face. There are pics of Jimi were what looks to be a blouse and some stories that he was no-sexual at least that is how he got of the army. Stevie can't see so he would not know how to glam himself up. Jazz artist do not have to sell an image and even if it they did it would not make people buy the music.

I don't think having a perm makes a man feminized and make up being an entertainer is expected.

Jimi being a 60s hippie with the ruffled shirts and such, that many other entertainers white & black were wearing doesn't feminize him

Stevie sight or not did not have 'feminized' manners... those braids with the beads though might be, but still not
Many Jazz artists tried to 'cross over' into pop music or mainstream music in the 80s, there was a lot of fusion going on and jazz artists videos were very prominate

Miles Davis Herb Albert George Benson Kenny G George Duke David Benoit many others

so the visuals did matter big time

just saying, male artists of the black persuasion overall did not have to 'feminize' themselves

If a person was a certain way it was because it is what was in them.

PeteSilas said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't know, I don't think it was a forced thing, pretty natural.

I think if he fought it later it was because of a combination of his Jehovah's Witness indoctrination and being around men who had homophobic tendencies.

.

I don't think 'lessening of masculine traits' was something black male artists had to do.
James Brown didn't Stevie Wonder didn't Jimi Hendrix didn't no jazz artists
Little Richard is just what he was
I mean disco and the 70s had a lot of fluid expressions black white or other... he did gleam from non-black artists as well and women Joni Mitchell & Chaka Khan, not to mention he adored and admired 1940s Starletts (not Stars) well Charlie Chapman was an influence

.

and Prince's 'less manly' expression seemed to increase into the period where pop culture all around increased in it's hyper masculine expression.

it's something that gooes back, billy eckstine once complained that when he started out, most black singers with a voice like his didn't stand a chance and then cited clyde mcphatter as what was the common black voice. Little Richard is actually shocking in how conscious he was about not scaring white adults and crossing over, he knew exactly what he was doing. Although Little richard was already gay and flamboyant. It's something that goes back, is pervasive, I guess James was never truly a crossover artist but even he wore pancake makeup, straightened his hair and encouraged gay rumors in his prime. Jimi never wore makeup and I can't say he ever came across as feminine but he sure did where womens stuff, the boas and clothes. It hasn't changed today, i just heard yesterday some rapper showed up in a dress at the grammy's. America is petrified of black masculinity. It's not always sexual either, a lot of times an image of a fat guy, or a guy like lionel richie, you know, the safe black guy, can get over. Sly Stone got over not by wearing makeup but by singing pop songs about unity, it all came back and haunted him a few short years later as he released the brilliant 'there's a riot goin' on" and questioned his ability to compromise with a line like "dying young is hard to take, selling out is harder". It's a real thing, I can only assume you're white to deny it.

please don't assume

.

I know people like Nat King Cole had to do things like smile alot, to appear safer, but he also just did what all the other crooners did. Maybe the Italian crooners had to dial back theirs as well since they had a lot of stereotypes about Italian me too. But Nat, he never dailed down his masculinity.

.
But my other point was that we cannot assume that all these men were masculine or ultra macho types to begin with. Many men in the arts are going to be less stagnant when it comes to expression.

Prince is what Prince is... in the 90s he was even more, in the midst of hyper masculinity
When Prince was wearing all those suites for shows and such there are images of the private Prince wearing laces and more feminine things. It is who Prince is.

laurarichardson said:

laurarichardson said:

//James Brown had a perm and cakes of make-up on his face. There are pics of Jimi were what looks to be a blouse and some stories that he was no-sexual at least that is how he got of the army. Stevie can't see so he would not know how to glam himself up. Jazz artist do not have to sell an image and even if it they did it would not make people buy the music.

--If you wanted to crossover in the 80s you dialed your masculinity down a tad. Alright I never thought Prince was putting a gay vibe.

idk, it is interesting looking back over the decades and such.
At what point were male entertainers hypermasculine? Even debonair manly types in the 50s were pretty 'flamboyant' dancing and pretty makeup etc

60s 70s pop culture was really out there

Bruce remained the same 70s - 80s though

OldFriends4Sale said:

PeteSilas said:

it's something that gooes back, billy eckstine once complained that when he started out, most black singers with a voice like his didn't stand a chance and then cited clyde mcphatter as what was the common black voice. Little Richard is actually shocking in how conscious he was about not scaring white adults and crossing over, he knew exactly what he was doing. Although Little richard was already gay and flamboyant. It's something that goes back, is pervasive, I guess James was never truly a crossover artist but even he wore pancake makeup, straightened his hair and encouraged gay rumors in his prime. Jimi never wore makeup and I can't say he ever came across as feminine but he sure did where womens stuff, the boas and clothes. It hasn't changed today, i just heard yesterday some rapper showed up in a dress at the grammy's. America is petrified of black masculinity. It's not always sexual either, a lot of times an image of a fat guy, or a guy like lionel richie, you know, the safe black guy, can get over. Sly Stone got over not by wearing makeup but by singing pop songs about unity, it all came back and haunted him a few short years later as he released the brilliant 'there's a riot goin' on" and questioned his ability to compromise with a line like "dying young is hard to take, selling out is harder". It's a real thing, I can only assume you're white to deny it.

please don't assume

.

Prince is what Prince is... in the 90s he was even more, in the midst of hyper masculinity
When Prince was wearing all those suites for shows and such there are images of the private Prince wearing laces and more feminine things. It is who Prince is.

You are white are just know nothing about the industry back in the day. Plenty of articles and books about this nonsense. Even the Unsung on Ray Parker Jr. Clive Davis talked about it on that program.

OldFriends4Sale said:

PeteSilas said:

it's something that gooes back, billy eckstine once complained that when he started out, most black singers with a voice like his didn't stand a chance and then cited clyde mcphatter as what was the common black voice. Little Richard is actually shocking in how conscious he was about not scaring white adults and crossing over, he knew exactly what he was doing. Although Little richard was already gay and flamboyant. It's something that goes back, is pervasive, I guess James was never truly a crossover artist but even he wore pancake makeup, straightened his hair and encouraged gay rumors in his prime. Jimi never wore makeup and I can't say he ever came across as feminine but he sure did where womens stuff, the boas and clothes. It hasn't changed today, i just heard yesterday some rapper showed up in a dress at the grammy's. America is petrified of black masculinity. It's not always sexual either, a lot of times an image of a fat guy, or a guy like lionel richie, you know, the safe black guy, can get over. Sly Stone got over not by wearing makeup but by singing pop songs about unity, it all came back and haunted him a few short years later as he released the brilliant 'there's a riot goin' on" and questioned his ability to compromise with a line like "dying young is hard to take, selling out is harder". It's a real thing, I can only assume you're white to deny it.

please don't assume

.

Prince is what Prince is... in the 90s he was even more, in the midst of hyper masculinity
When Prince was wearing all those suites for shows and such there are images of the private Prince wearing laces and more feminine things. It is who Prince is.

the private pics mean nothing, lisa said that prince swore early on to stay dressed like a star from the time some fans saw him in normal clothes and didn't think it was him.

OldFriends4Sale said:

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said: //James Brown had a perm and cakes of make-up on his face. There are pics of Jimi were what looks to be a blouse and some stories that he was no-sexual at least that is how he got of the army. Stevie can't see so he would not know how to glam himself up. Jazz artist do not have to sell an image and even if it they did it would not make people buy the music.

I don't think having a perm makes a man feminized and make up being an entertainer is expected.

Jimi being a 60s hippie with the ruffled shirts and such, that many other entertainers white & black were wearing doesn't feminize him

Stevie sight or not did not have 'feminized' manners... those braids with the beads though might be, but still not
Many Jazz artists tried to 'cross over' into pop music or mainstream music in the 80s, there was a lot of fusion going on and jazz artists videos were very prominate

Miles Davis Herb Albert George Benson Kenny G George Duke David Benoit many others

so the visuals did matter big time

just saying, male artists of the black persuasion overall did not have to 'feminize' themselves

If a person was a certain way it was because it is what was in them.

I don't think having a perm makes a man feminized and make up being an entertainer is expected.

( Many black people think a dude wearing a perm is fem. Trust me. )

Read some of the books about Jimi's early days when he went back to Harlem in his Hippie garb. His harlem buddies thougt he was gay.

Jazz artist tried to cross over by changing their music not by wearing blouses.

Back in the day male black artist dialed their muscalinty down because white men did not want their women screaming over some black dude. Fem meant safe. Why do you think black men were lynched back in the day. Nine times out of ten it was just the idea that some white women was looking in their directions. Shit was insane but who ran the music industry back in the 50 and 6Os the mob. Not people who are for integration.

laurarichardson said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

please don't assume

.

Prince is what Prince is... in the 90s he was even more, in the midst of hyper masculinity
When Prince was wearing all those suites for shows and such there are images of the private Prince wearing laces and more feminine things. It is who Prince is.

You are white are just know nothing about the industry back in the day. Plenty of articles and books about this nonsense. Even the Unsung on Ray Parker Jr. Clive Davis talked about it on that program.

I'm not white laurarichardson,

I mean I could assume you are a man, because you have a really aggressive posture about yourself on message boards. But we should not assume, and pigeonhold any person into stereotypical ways of thinking to define anyone by race religion ethnicity gender or sexuality.

Let's just keep this about the topic, not each other.

OldFriends4Sale said:

laurarichardson said:

laurarichardson said: --If you wanted to crossover in the 80s you dialed your masculinity down a tad. Alright I never thought Prince was putting a gay vibe.

idk, it is interesting looking back over the decades and such.
At what point were male entertainers hypermasculine? Even debonair manly types in the 50s were pretty 'flamboyant' dancing and pretty makeup etc

60s 70s pop culture was really out there

Bruce remained the same 70s - 80s though

Do you see what MJ had to do to be as big as he was? He had to craft an image of an overgrown twelve year old, someone completely unthreatening in terms of sexuality. Now, that may have been a huge part of who he was but he had the image of being asexual, childlike, naive. He also had stellar damage control in the early days, I recall Joseph Jackson saying something about not trusting white people, Michael gave an interview saying it turned his stomach to hear Joseph talk like that when, truth be told, he felt the same way. So, you got a guy who has to lie about his sexuality, lie about his feelings, lie about his opinions and on top of all that, he weighed about 105 in the 80's and was physically waifish and completely non-threatening. Oh yeah, and he also most likely bleached his skin, and had plastic surgery to look white too. Rick James, Prince and Michael all had comparable talent and charisma, Rick was alone in terms of how unapologetically black and hypersexual he was, it was an image that no amount of great songs and albums could get past mtv.