I don't see him singing on that song. He offered to play the guitar but they wanted him to sing.

4 the tears in your eyes,

that is a much better song than the title crap song.......

I've gone on record many times that I'm glad that P didn't participate in that Q/MJ attention grab that is known as WATW.

He donated a song, that was plenty.

As we've found out since 4/21, P was plenty generous and supported plenty of chartable situations during his career.

inovio said:

I don't see him singing on that song. He offered to play the guitar but they wanted him to sing.

.

This is partially correct. He had early morning-after druthers, and called Quicy's people up, offering to add a guitar solo that he had mapped out in his head on the basis of the demo cassette provided to him and the participating artists at the AMAs, but was told that the session had already wrapped.

.

(The demo of WATW can be found, for reference, on MJ's 2004 'Ultimate Collection' release; footage of its recording can be readily found on YT; and it is the initial tracking, for all practical purposes, of the final release)

.

Although this story seems spurious in that most of the instrumentation and assembling of the song from the various vocal takes occurred in a 'post-production' setting. As recorded on January 28th, 1985, they were essentially working on reinterpreting the MJ guide vocal for the individual artists' lines, and embellishing the demo with the chorus--in the process capturing iconic footage.

.

I suppose it can be reconciled in that they weren't going to tolerate both the initial half-snub and then allow a part to be recorded independent of all of the other participants, as it wouldn't yield anything interesting to be memorialized in the eventual music video. In this heavily of-its-own-time stylized, indulgent commercial enterprise, they weren't going to permit an aura of mystery 'Like a Prayer' or 'Stand Back' type of thing (or even possibly being upstaged) where he appears credited in the liner notes for the track (if even that), but is otherwise nowhere to be found.

.

('Oh, that's definitely Prince! But where is he in the video? My boyfriend says you can seem him standing next to _.' - hypothetical teenybopper)

.

Also, if I am recalling correctly, there was a period of time, perhaps during the first several hours of the session, where it was announced and then called off, and then back on again. . . that Prince would be showing up. Whether this was his fickleness/indecision being communicated through his own people, or whether just hopeful rumor making its rounds at the gathering, one can't be perfectly certain with such limited facts.

.

His bitterness seems clearly felt, despite the pleadings in 'Hello', etc. Wasn't he paraphrased, on a credible source, as characterizing the whole misadventure as not wanting to be grouped in a room 'filled with so many egos', and as disparagingly comparing the tens of thousands of dollars spent on catering during the WATW A&M Studios session, to his modest cans of Coca-Cola and a ham sandwiches when he recorded 4TTIYE about a week later with the aid of a mobile recording truck outside of the New Orleans Superdome [after his PR Tour date there earlier in the evening]? This isn't to say that those criticisms are entirely without merit, but I believe he's projecting a bit.

.

I do believe that he ought to have appeared, in fulfulling an implied obligation to the expectations of the audiences that rose him to pop superstardom. He did, of course, perform at the AMAs earlier that same night; having made a [necessary] concession there, I can't see how WATW could be such an impossible chore for him to go along with.

.

However, he was acting in accordance with growing self-doubt and entering into a certain unease being [viewed as] 'Mr Purple Rain' by this point. Perhaps he did not want to create another uncomfortable legacy by participating in such a corny, over-the-top affair at just this very moment in his career. This could only have served further to typecast him in his 1999/PR-era mode, perhaps even risking adding a cartoonish element to it if the unrehearsed performance was tensely awkward or overly fey.

.

That, and the possibility of having a larger ego, or at least need for control and need for being viewed in the most positive light, than all of the other participating artists collectively. At this point, he isn't even giving interviews to the press-- is he ultimately going to be able to accept appearing on someone else's production, at this level of anticipated commercial exposure and scale, and not being able to command all of the logistics vital to his own carefully cultivated public image?

.

We know that he has, time and again, demonstrated himself to be legitimately charitable, but this discussion concerns the other aspects of that one night and its immediate context.

.

-->The takeaway here is that he does not appear to have been absolutely resolved on not participating, contrary to what many presume was a bold and firm stance. He waffled a bit before getting to that 'I'll gladly write a song instead' line, and even after that. And the passed-on opportunity exposes personal frailty at least as much as it does artistic integrity.

.

[Edited 1/12/17 23:25pm]

From the bowels of the org http://prince.org/msg/7/219470

http://prince.org/msg/7/411789

http://prince.org/msg/7/401227

imprimis said:

inovio said:

I don't see him singing on that song. He offered to play the guitar but they wanted him to sing.

-->The takeaway here is that he does not appear to have been absolutely resolved on not participating, contrary to what many presume was a bold and firm stance. He waffled a bit before getting to that 'I'll gladly write a song instead' line, and even after that. And the passed-on opportunity exposes personal frailty at least as much as it does artistic integrity.

.

[Edited 1/12/17 23:21pm]

I hear what you're saying, but whenever I think of the WATW performance and P's non-participation, despite the way the evening ended with the brouhaha concerning his bodyguard and the subsequent resentment of some who kinda act as if P should've somehow been grateful to have been asked to attend, all I can muster up is an eyeroll, a smile and a silent thanks that regardless of what anyone might conjecture and interpret as P's underlying reasons...He ain't do it...and it's canon.

Yay!

LBrent said:

imprimis said:

-->The takeaway here is that he does not appear to have been absolutely resolved on not participating, contrary to what many presume was a bold and firm stance. He waffled a bit before getting to that 'I'll gladly write a song instead' line, and even after that. And the passed-on opportunity exposes personal frailty at least as much as it does artistic integrity.

.

[Edited 1/12/17 23:21pm]

I hear what you're saying, but whenever I think of the WATW performance and P's non-participation, despite the way the evening ended with the brouhaha concerning his bodyguard and the subsequent resentment of some who kinda act as if P should've somehow been grateful to have been asked to attend, all I can muster up is an eyeroll, a smile and a silent thanks that regardless of what anyone might conjecture and interpret as P's underlying reasons...He ain't do it...and it's canon.

Yay!

.

To clarify, at least for my part, I am not suggesting that he should have been uncommonly grateful for the invitation; rather, I am advocating the soundness of participating as a sensible exercise of noblesse oblige (to his wide audience who were soon to make him ~$180 million 1984/1985 dollars). His actions at least seemed to lend credence to the control freak allegations, and to corroborate much of the negativity surrounding him, which bad press rumor mill began to swirl approximately with the 'Prince Spaghetti' fiasco, and calmed around the time of the Rolling Stones interview. I don't believe his declining the offer was strongly grounded in principles of maintaining artistic integrity, at the time; although, as you say, his ultimate decision* is canon, and its consequences perhaps can be viewed more positively from our distant vantage point. ATWIAD, UTCM, Parade, SOTT, etc. may not have materialized in the manner we now know them without some of the events and pressures of this particular time. I wouldn't say that this one night was truly an inflexion point, but rather merely happened to capture richly much of what was [perceived to be, at least] symptomatic of this period.

.

.

* his 'ultimate decision' properly being his inability or unwillingness to commit early in the evening, which sealed the fate of the song as we know it today; it would seem the producers actually gave the final 'no', by which time both sides had already waited too long to act or negotiate.

.

[Edited 1/13/17 0:49am]

PurpleTrollster said:

rogifan said:

PurpleTrollster said:

I can't be the only one who thinks he was a badass for that, right?

It's a horrible cheesy song (sorry Lionel). I'm glad he was never associated with it.

.

Well, Jacko and the big American-side record label interests had to get in on this whole 'Do They Know Its Christmas?' thing, right?

.

imprimis said:

rogifan said:

PurpleTrollster said:

I can't be the only one who thinks he was a badass for that, right?

Count me in!

Prince...

...would have been uncomfortable doing it

...wouldn't have sounded right doing it

...would have ruined the whole PR era "don't smile" image he was trying to build (see W&L's comments on Questlove's radio show, about Lisa's dad making a comment about his daughter being in the band that night and P being mad)

...would have been out of place given that he was definitely NOT part of this "pop music for your momma" crawd of superstars, and more on the underground side despite the massive success

...was too god for that shit (even though I kinda like the song, nostalgia thing).

+ I love what Susan Rogers once said about recording 4 The Tears In Your Eyes. Basically they spent a whole night doing it, while on tour and after a show I think, and at dawn Prince and her were starving and they found and ate some junk food, whatever was available. And Susan says all those people they were drinking champaign and eating caviar while recording We Are The World, but Prince recorded his song without food or sleep, in his little mobile studio while on tour, and he's the one getting all the crap about not caring about those poor African kids...

.

I think prince was totally cool NOT doing it and just giving a song. And he was just as cool with his lollipop and declining to sing at the 10th anniversary.

imprimis said:

laurarichardson said:

imprimis said:

.

This is partially correct. He had early morning-after druthers, and called Quicy's people up, offering to add a guitar solo that he had mapped out in his head on the basis of the demo cassette provided to him and the participating artists at the AMAs, but was told that the session had already wrapped.

.

(The demo of WATW can be found, for reference, on MJ's 2004 'Ultimate Collection' release; footage of its recording can be readily found on YT; and it is the initial tracking, for all practical purposes, of the final release)

.

Although this story seems spurious in that most of the instrumentation and assembling of the song from the various vocal takes occurred in a 'post-production' setting. As recorded on January 28th, 1985, they were essentially working on reinterpreting the MJ guide vocal for the individual artists' lines, and embellishing the demo with the chorus--in the process capturing iconic footage.

.

I suppose it can be reconciled in that they weren't going to tolerate both the initial half-snub and then allow a part to be recorded independent of all of the other participants, as it wouldn't yield anything interesting to be memorialized in the eventual music video. In this heavily of-its-own-time stylized, indulgent commercial enterprise, they weren't going to permit an aura of mystery 'Like a Prayer' or 'Stand Back' type of thing (or even possibly being upstaged) where he appears credited in the liner notes for the track (if even that), but is otherwise nowhere to be found.

.

('Oh, that's definitely Prince! But where is he in the video? My boyfriend says you can seem him standing next to _.' - hypothetical teenybopper)

.

Also, if I am recalling correctly, there was a period of time, perhaps during the first several hours of the session, where it was announced and then called off, and then back on again. . . that Prince would be showing up. Whether this was his fickleness/indecision being communicated through his own people, or whether just hopeful rumor making its rounds at the gathering, one can't be perfectly certain with such limited facts.

.

His bitterness seems clearly felt, despite the pleadings in 'Hello', etc. Wasn't he paraphrased, on a credible source, as characterizing the whole misadventure as not wanting to be grouped in a room 'filled with so many egos', and as disparagingly comparing the tens of thousands of dollars spent on catering during the WATW A&M Studios session, to his modest cans of Coca-Cola and a ham sandwiches when he recorded 4TTIYE about a week later with the aid of a mobile recording truck outside of the New Orleans Superdome [after his PR Tour date there earlier in the evening]? This isn't to say that those criticisms are entirely without merit, but I believe he's projecting a bit.

.

I do believe that he ought to have appeared, in fulfulling an implied obligation to the expectations of the audiences that rose him to pop superstardom. He did, of course, perform at the AMAs earlier that same night; having made a [necessary] concession there, I can't see how WATW could be such an impossible chore for him to go along with.

.

However, he was acting in accordance with growing self-doubt and entering into a certain unease being [viewed as] 'Mr Purple Rain' by this point. Perhaps he did not want to create another uncomfortable legacy by participating in such a corny, over-the-top affair at just this very moment in his career. This could only have served further to typecast him in his 1999/PR-era mode, perhaps even risking adding a cartoonish element to it if the unrehearsed performance was tensely awkward or overly fey.

.

That, and the possibility of having a larger ego, or at least need for control and need for being viewed in the most positive light, than all of the other participating artists collectively. At this point, he isn't even giving interviews to the press-- is he ultimately going to be able to accept appearing on someone else's production, at this level of anticipated commercial exposure and scale, and not being able to command all of the logistics vital to his own carefully cultivated public image?

.

We know that he has, time and again, demonstrated himself to be legitimately charitable, but this discussion concerns the other aspects of that one night and its immediate context.

.

-->The takeaway here is that he does not appear to have been absolutely resolved on not participating, contrary to what many presume was a bold and firm stance. He waffled a bit before getting to that 'I'll gladly write a song instead' line, and even after that. And the passed-on opportunity exposes personal frailty at least as much as it does artistic integrity.

.

[Edited 1/12/17 23:25pm]

--According to Wendy he did not like the music and he was not going to fake it. End of story. He was never supposed to be at the session.

According to Alan he offered the guitar solo instead, Quincy said no. Then he said can I send Sheila instead and give a separate track for the album, Quincy said OK. Thing is P was at the AMA thing right before and there everybody was like "see you at the session later tonight" and Quincy maybe still hoped P would change his mind, + Alan knew it would be a PR disaster if they just said he didn't wanna do it and the press got ahold of it. So Alan came-up with this "he's not feeling well" excuse and begged Prince to stay at the hotel the whole night. Which he did... for some hours. Next thing you know he's in a club and his bodyguard kicks some dude's ass here comes the tabloid scandal. It was bad luck really because without the Big Chick incident things would probably have gone under the radar...

The celebrity herd mentality started right about that time - everyone HAS to be on the record. Everyone HAS to wear this ribbon. Everyone HAS to do this or do that. He did what he thought was appropriate.

laurarichardson said:

imprimis said:

.

.

--According to Wendy he did not like the music and he was not going to fake it. End of story. He was never supposed to be at the session.

.

This isn't incorrect, but it should be noted that the invited stars received copies of the demo cassette only that day. Whatever amount of consideration and discussion he would have had on that day with those outside of his management would be necessarily limited for want of time. I have to imagine there were one or more dress rehearsal run-throughs for the show that occupied considerable energies that day. It doesn't seem as though most artists were provided any advance notice of the project. No source has claimed that P was given any early prospectus about the project, although the calibre of his stardom at the time makes that at least a remote possibility. I believe MJ was at the studio adding additional vocals to the demo during the AMAs.

.

[Edited 1/13/17 5:02am]

databank said:

laurarichardson said:

imprimis said: --According to Wendy he did not like the music and he was not going to fake it. End of story. He was never supposed to be at the session.

According to Alan he offered the guitar solo instead, Quincy said no. Then he said can I send Sheila instead and give a separate track for the album, Quincy said OK. Thing is P was at the AMA thing right before and there everybody was like "see you at the session later tonight" and Quincy maybe still hoped P would change his mind, + Alan knew it would be a PR disaster if they just said he didn't wanna do it and the press got ahold of it. So Alan came-up with this "he's not feeling well" excuse and begged Prince to stay at the hotel the whole night. Which he did... for some hours. Next thing you know he's in a club and his bodyguard kicks some dude's ass here comes the tabloid scandal. It was bad luck really because without the Big Chick incident things would probably have gone under the radar...

.

I'm well aware of this accounting, which appeared in a relatively recent Rolling Stones article. I'm not convinced that it is an accurate (non-revisionist) accounting of the debacle. At a minimum, it is very favorably abridged to suit the journalist's presentation. I believe Sheila appeared chiefly (although not exclusively) due to her long-standing relationship with Lionel, and that her own management felt it to be an intelligent move for her career, to take advantage of any networking opportunity to strengthen her standing as a solo artist beyond an that of adjunct to the Purple Rain phenomenon singing Apollonia 6 outtakes.

.

P offering to 'send Sheila' as some form of Purple ambassador sounds mighty bullocksy.

.

[Edited 1/13/17 5:33am]

imprimis said:

laurarichardson said:

imprimis said: --According to Wendy he did not like the music and he was not going to fake it. End of story. He was never supposed to be at the session.

.

This isn't incorrect, but it should be noted that the invited stars received copies of the demo cassette only that day. Whatever amount of consideration and discussion he would have had on that day with persons, outside of his management, would be necessarily limited for want of time. It doesn't seem as though most artists were provided advance notice of the project. No source has claimed that P was given any early prospectus about the project. I believe MJ was at the studio adding additional vocals to the demo during the AMAs.

.

[Edited 1/13/17 4:54am]

What is your point? How much time do you need to decide you do not like the song and (according to Alan Leeds) you want to go out to a night club with Jill Jones instead. In light of the fact that he was already doing charity work back in the 80s. I could see his reasons for skipping it.

laurarichardson said:

imprimis said:

.

This isn't incorrect, but it should be noted that the invited stars received copies of the demo cassette only that day. Whatever amount of consideration and discussion he would have had on that day with persons, outside of his management, would be necessarily limited for want of time. It doesn't seem as though most artists were provided advance notice of the project. No source has claimed that P was given any early prospectus about the project. I believe MJ was at the studio adding additional vocals to the demo during the AMAs.

.

[Edited 1/13/17 4:54am]

What is your point? How much time do you need to decide you do not like the song and (according to Alan Leeds) you want to go out to a night club with Jill Jones instead. In light of the fact that he was already doing charity work back in the 80s. I could see his reasons for skipping it.

.

Arrogance should not be repainted as 'bad ass'. His decision may have been a sound one in the end in terms of preserving a certain standard of artistic reputation, but at the time it was made out of sheer conceit. He doesn't do other people's records. He has too many peculiarities to allow someone else's cameramen the discretion to film him in a potentially compromising environment (not surrounded by his own people, and alongside other powerbrokers of the day).

.

[Edited 1/13/17 5:13am]

imprimis said:

laurarichardson said:

What is your point? How much time do you need to decide you do not like the song and (according to Alan Leeds) you want to go out to a night club with Jill Jones instead. In light of the fact that he was already doing charity work back in the 80s. I could see his reasons for skipping it.

.

Arrogance should not be repainted as 'bad ass'. His decision may have been a sound one in the end in terms of preserving a certain standard of artistic reputation, but at the time it was made out of sheer conceit. He doesn't do other people's records. He has too many peculiarities to allow someone else's cameramen the discretion to film him in a potentially compromising environment (not surrounded by his own people).

.

[Edited 1/13/17 5:10am]

He did not want to do it plain and simple. It is not arrogant to be honest. He also spent years building up an image. Standing around singing that song would have ruined it. He donated a track did can food drives for people in this country with people actually getting the food and donated millions to charity without attention or cameras.

In addtion, no one really cares about any of this years later.

laurarichardson said:

imprimis said:

.

Arrogance should not be repainted as 'bad ass'. His decision may have been a sound one in the end in terms of preserving a certain standard of artistic reputation, but at the time it was made out of sheer conceit. He doesn't do other people's records. He has too many peculiarities to allow someone else's cameramen the discretion to film him in a potentially compromising environment (not surrounded by his own people).

.

[Edited 1/13/17 5:10am]

He did not want to do it plain and simple. It is not arrogant to be honest. He also spent years building up an image. Standing around singing that song would have ruined it. He donated a track did can food drives for people in this country with people actually getting the food and donated millions to charity without attention or cameras.

In addtion, no one really cares about any of this years later.

.

Yes, I believe I already indicated all of the above in my longform reply. Its interest is only as a historical footnote.

.

LBrent said:

imprimis said:

databank said:

According to Alan he offered the guitar solo instead, Quincy said no. Then he said can I send Sheila instead and give a separate track for the album, Quincy said OK. Thing is P was at the AMA thing right before and there everybody was like "see you at the session later tonight" and Quincy maybe still hoped P would change his mind, + Alan knew it would be a PR disaster if they just said he didn't wanna do it and the press got ahold of it. So Alan came-up with this "he's not feeling well" excuse and begged Prince to stay at the hotel the whole night. Which he did... for some hours. Next thing you know he's in a club and his bodyguard kicks some dude's ass here comes the tabloid scandal. It was bad luck really because without the Big Chick incident things would probably have gone under the radar...

.

I'm well aware of this accounting, which appeared in a relatively recent Rolling Stones article. I'm not convinced that it is an accurate (non-revisionist) accounting of the debacle. I believe Sheila appeared chiefly (although not exclusively) due to her long-standing relationship with Lionel, and that her own management felt it to be a sound move for her career.

.

P offering to 'send Sheila' as some form of Purple ambassador sounds mighty bullocksy.

.

.

[Edited 1/13/17 5:00am]

IDK, I'm pretty bluffed at the red Bull Academy lecture she made.

"I" decided we should have this Amadeus look with my band. Er... like Prince And The Revolution having that same look has nothing to do with it?

"I" programmed the linn drum on Erotic City this way and that way. Did she now? Supposedly she wasn't even there when the basic tracks were recorded.

"I" wanted that particular vibe when I composed The Glamorous Life. Did she now too? I thought It had been composed for Apollonia 6 and again she hadn't even joined yet.

"I" recorded Romance 1600 on my own in my mobile bus studio, intensively, every time I had a second during the PR tour. Mmmh... Well, not what Susan said, according to her Sheila was there, contributed to the recordings, but Prince was responsible for the songs 100% (incidentally when Sheila tells about the near 100,000 dollars bill she got at the end of the PR tour, she explains -without wanting to- why Prince was kind enough to give her the royalties for the whole R1600 album: it makes much more sense now).

"I" don't remember how "I" came-up with the beat on Koo Koo. Well, maybe because she didn't?

Add to that that the guy interviewing her had obviously been expressely ordered NOT to even pronounce Prince's name once and had to come up with the most desperate questions about Krush Groove and shooting music videos to try and have her say something...

.

Don't misunderstand me: I don't mean no disrespect to Sheila, she's someone whose work I love, including her work with her dad before Prince, and her albums after and without Prince (Sex Cymbal is my jam!). I've learned a lot in this interview: she did record the percussions on Can't Stop Til I Get Enough OMG!!! I never knew that! And she played with Tito, George, Marvin, had already recorded 2 whole albums as "Pete And Sheila Escovedo"... she HAD a carreer before she met Prince, and an impressive one at that. But the notion that her career was totally in her own hands (or her management's) during that 84-88 run isn't something I buy. When you worked with Prince you worked for Prince. He told you what to sing, how to sing it and what to wear. He probably gave more freedom to Sheila than he did the other side projectsd at that time, I'll give you that, but Sheila was not of the caliber of the megastars on WATW in terms of fame in early 85 and I find Alan's account very believeable.

.

On a side note I can't understand why Sheila will not just admit that she was a Prince side project for those years. I mean I can totally understand that she's totally fed-up being asked about Prince when she's had a 41 year long career (she made it clear in an interview 2 years ago). But on the other hand those years with Prince were only what? 5 years out of 41? She'd done a lot before and she did a lot after, I don't see what she should be ashamed of. Or if Susan Rogers' and other people's accounts are false then Sheila should just say it plainly: those people are lying, I was there, I did this and that. But pretending like this when we all know the other side of the story is just... weird. And banning the name Prince was just weird as well. Telling the dude please don't make it all about Prince, you can ask questions about what we did but make it about my experience with him, OK. That's totally understandable, and anyway I really wanted to hear about her experience. But pretending he wasn't even there? That's just weird and in the end you don't hear about her experience either because the interviewer can't ask the right questions. I apologize to Sheila if she ever happens to read this, I mean no offense, she's one of my heroes, I just wish she would play ball with all that stuff and either admit P's role OR clearly tell us her side of story.

.

You are very literate about this era Imprimis, so until Madhouseman's book comes out and clears this once and for all, I'd love to hear what you think of that whole situation.

1Sasha said:

Besides the control freak issue, remember that Prince sent recording engineers out of the studio when he was recording his vocals so he could be alone. You can read that from the Moonsound days, and Paisley Park is presenting a similar story on tours now.

But I do believe myself that the cheese factor was his primary objextion.

LittleProfessor said:

Besides the control freak issue, remember that Prince sent recording engineers out of the studio when he was recording his vocals so he could be alone. You can read that from the Moonsound days, and Paisley Park is presenting a similar story on tours now.

But I do believe myself that the cheese factor was his primary objextion.

.

Lends the necessary credence to his need to limit exposure to his peculiarities, as a vunerability contributing to his choice not to participate in this iconic yet tacky project. His public image was fastidiously maintained inside a Purple vacuum.

.

[Edited 1/15/17 0:15am]

LBrent said:

laytonian said:

I've never heard Madonna dissed for not being there. It was MJ's and Quincy's show. I don't think either P not Madonna wanted to assist MJ's publicity machine. THE ONLY REASON Prince took shit was because of the limo incident. His managers told him to stay at the hotel and he decided to go out. He would never admit it but I'm sure he regretted going out. The paps had no one else to chase that night. I also don't think he wanted to stand next to those other much-taller people at that stage in his career. Curated image, independence. That's our guy. [Edited 1/15/17 12:50pm]

She gets a bye for being on tour at the time. Always thought Prince was a target for the media. So easy for them to attack Prince which is sad. Maybe he should of stayed at the hotel but we are a so called free society and he had every right to go out and do as he pleased.

[Edited 1/15/17 15:54pm]