Wow. Ok. There's so much in what you've written...

Firstly, P was very androgynous.

Frankly, he was pretty. Add makeup and articles of clothing that, until he had enough resources to have his wadrobe custom made, was directly from the ladies department, and his singing voice being falsetto...Um. Yeah.

The public, especially non-fans, often confused that androgyny with gender. P was quite masculine, to the point of being quite chauvinistic in his world veiw. But...that wasn't what made him heterosexual. There are as many "macho" men who are NOT androgynous, yet are homosexual.

It can be difficult to articulate sometimes because each piece seems to contradict the other.

I mean...If a man wears long permed hair, wears makeup, is pretty, wears heels, wears lace, strikes certain poses and sings in a high voice...For some people that alone would make him gay. The fact that homosexuality is defined by a sexual preference for the same gender is lost on those people.

P has never "read" as gay to me and I have very long and strong ties in the LBGTQ community and very acute "gaydar".

Take Wendy and Lisa...Wendy, even in a dress, reads as very "dykey" to me. Lisa, also a lesbian, also reads as gay to me, but is more feminine. Same book, different page.

P, for all his androgynous outer accoutrements, was a very masculine heterosexual man.

[Edited 11/14/16 22:45pm]

Prince has played with gender roles his entire career. There's no doubt even at the height of his popularity he was cross-dressing and bluring gender stereotypes and continued flying his freak flag righ to the end.

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Androgyny isn't just RuPaul or Lady Gaga with fake stubble - that's straight up drag. Androgyny can be lace gloves, high heels, eye liner and a big ol' moustache. A pink fur coat, spandex pants that hug the shape of your ass, hoop ear rings and an open shirt showing your hairy chest. Bluring and playing with expectations and accepted gender roles. Boy George did that, Bowie, Madonna did that, Prince certainly did that, even Michael Jackson did that.

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.

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LBrent said:

The fact that homosexuality is defined by a sexual preference [1]

I have very long and strong ties in the LBGTQ community and very acute "gaydar". [3]

Take Wendy and Lisa...Wendy, even in a dress, reads as very "dykey" to me. [2] Lisa, also a lesbian, also reads as gay to me, but is more feminine. Same book, different page.

.

1: This is not a fact at all, preference denotes choice - thus your definition is incorrect.

2: "Dyke" is often used a pejorative, whilst I don't think you intended that you might want to choose your words more carefully.

3: I question that given 1 and 2.

rogifan said:

Seems to me Prince is/was whatever anyone wants him to be. I don't care about labels. I was a big fan of hair metal in the 80s (a bit embarrassed by that now). Would these guys be considered androgynous?



Anyway to me it seemed more like an act, more like a stage presence than anything else. And all these guys in hair metal bands with the teased hair and makeup were humping every female groupie they could get their hands on.

Latin said:

rogifan said:

Seems to me Prince is/was whatever anyone wants him to be. I don't care about labels. I was a big fan of hair metal in the 80s (a bit embarrassed by that now). Would these guys be considered androgynous?



Anyway to me it seemed more like an act, more like a stage presence than anything else. And all these guys in hair metal bands with the teased hair and makeup were humping every female groupie they could get their hands on.

It wasn't just the make up and the way he dressed. Prince could be quite effeminate in his mannerism. Especially in interviews. Whether that was an act or not I dont know.

those are my 2 cents: prince didnt want to be categorized - neither 4 his music nor his personality. and he never categorized others or their work or what they were wearing or doing. he always did what he wanted 2. he did it as it came 2 him and he gave a s**t about what the rest of the world was thinking about it. therefore he was genuine in everything he did. he had a strong male AND female side. and he stood 4 it. he had his personal style and went 4 it. did he play with it? sure. cause we reacted. and he wanted 2 be seen. he was always pushing the envelope. he loved 2 provoke. and he was always 2 steps ahead. as he switched the genres of his music he switched his style and kept us guessing. he gave us answers through his music and just when we thought we understood he claimed the opposite or at least questioned his own statement. he bended the lines like his guitar strings and he did that cause nothing ever appeared impossible 2 him or scared him. and this was the only assumption when it came 2 his style as well. that made him so damn sexy btw. I remember in the early nineties every1 - male or female, straight or gay, black or white - wanted 2 sleep with prince. cause he was everybodys type? cause he was andogynous? I dont think so.

at the moment we discuss wether he is androgynous or not we try 2 categorize him. androgyny is a label too.
and the only label I can think of when it comes 2 prince is ... ... cause he was his own category.

just guessing.

I always thought the Oprah interview was very interesting for this segment.

OPRAH: But during our conversation. The Artist shared a very personal discovery he's recently made about himself. This is very interesting.

0{+> : Recent analysis has proved that there's probably two people inside of me. There's a Gemini. And we haven't determined what sex that other person is yet.

OPRAH: did you say, 'I'm not even sure what sex it is -- or he or she or -- is'? Did you say that?

0{+> : Yeah.

OPRAH: I thought I heard that. What I'm getting from you is that you are very much in touch with both sides of yourself, your masculine and feminine side.

0{+> : Mm-hmm.

OPRAH: Uh-huh. And so people grew up thinking that you're weird or that you're gay because of it. And that never bothered you?

0{+> : Hey, whatever floats the boat, you know.

OPRAH: Whatever peanut butter's your jelly.

0{+> : Yeah.

OPRAH: Yeah.

0{+> : There you go.

OPRAH: It's literally like another personality you're talking about?

0{+> : Well, what they seem to find was that it was some -- someone I had created when I was five years old.

OPRAH: Really?

0{+> : Mm-hmm. For whatever reason, I'm not sure yet. But I hope to find out.

OPRAH: 'They,' like psychologists, therapists?

0{+> : Well, actually, I found out...

OPRAH: Uh-huh.

0{+> : ...because I took some -- I took some -- went through therapy.

OPRAH: Uh-huh.

0{+> : So...

OPRAH: And you found out that...

0{+> : Yeah.

OPRAH: ...there is another person...

0{+> : Yeah.

OPRAH: ...living inside you?

0{+> : This is turning into a Sybil interview.

OPRAH: Yeah, really. Does that person have a name that we could call?

0{+> : That -- that -- that's what is so interesting to me, is that I -- that I think that that's why I changed my name. I think that's who I am now.

Well if Beyonce can have Sasha Fierce then Prince can have...hm...The Artist?...I mean when your real name is Prince, where do you go from there?

LBrent said:

Wow. Ok. There's so much in what you've written...

Firstly, P was very androgynous.

Frankly, he was pretty. Add makeup and articles of clothing that, until he had enough resources to have his wadrobe custom made, was directly from the ladies department, and his singing voice being falsetto...Um. Yeah.

The public, especially non-fans, often confused that androgyny with gender. P was quite masculine, to the point of being quite chauvinistic in his world veiw. But...that wasn't what made him heterosexual. There are as many "macho" men who are NOT androgynous, yet are homosexual.

It can be difficult to articulate sometimes because each piece seems to contradict the other.

I mean...If a man wears long permed hair, wears makeup, is pretty, wears heels, wears lace, strikes certain poses and sings in a high voice...For some people that alone would make him gay. The fact that homosexuality is defined by a sexual preference for the same gender is lost on those people.

P has never "read" as gay to me and I have very long and strong ties in the LBGTQ community and very acute "gaydar".

Take Wendy and Lisa...Wendy, even in a dress, reads as very "dykey" to me. Lisa, also a lesbian, also reads as gay to me, but is more feminine. Same book, different page.

P, for all his androgynous outer accoutrements, was a very masculine heterosexual man.

[Edited 11/14/16 22:45pm]

I see. I also think the fact that I'm looking at him through my eyes, a 21 year old who grew up in one of the more liberal parts of the country (Southern California) has affected this. To me, all the things that he did that you explained seems ok when it comes to performing onstage, like makeup and feminine clothes. And I know quite a few short guys that have a little "boost" in their shoes to make their appearance taller! But no doubt that 30 ish years ago, especially in Minnesota of all places, heads would've snapped to get a double take at him. Society's changed. Growing up I would see gay men in media all the time who would be described as feminine by others. I was taught from a young age to be accepting of all sexualities and beliefs, and in the schools that I went to, gay people weren't teased, in fact they were more often than not some of the more popular kids in school who had many friends. So I guess for me, I think of androgyny in a more extreme way, closer to drag rather than little bits of femininity here and there. Interesting stuff!

khill95 said:

LBrent said:

Wow. Ok. There's so much in what you've written...

Firstly, P was very androgynous.

Frankly, he was pretty. Add makeup and articles of clothing that, until he had enough resources to have his wadrobe custom made, was directly from the ladies department, and his singing voice being falsetto...Um. Yeah.

The public, especially non-fans, often confused that androgyny with gender. P was quite masculine, to the point of being quite chauvinistic in his world veiw. But...that wasn't what made him heterosexual. There are as many "macho" men who are NOT androgynous, yet are homosexual.

It can be difficult to articulate sometimes because each piece seems to contradict the other.

I mean...If a man wears long permed hair, wears makeup, is pretty, wears heels, wears lace, strikes certain poses and sings in a high voice...For some people that alone would make him gay. The fact that homosexuality is defined by a sexual preference for the same gender is lost on those people.

P has never "read" as gay to me and I have very long and strong ties in the LBGTQ community and very acute "gaydar".

Take Wendy and Lisa...Wendy, even in a dress, reads as very "dykey" to me. Lisa, also a lesbian, also reads as gay to me, but is more feminine. Same book, different page.

P, for all his androgynous outer accoutrements, was a very masculine heterosexual man.

[Edited 11/14/16 22:45pm]

I see. I also think the fact that I'm looking at him through my eyes, a 21 year old who grew up in one of the more liberal parts of the country (Southern California) has affected this. To me, all the things that he did that you explained seems ok when it comes to performing onstage, like makeup and feminine clothes. And I know quite a few short guys that have a little "boost" in their shoes to make their appearance taller! But no doubt that 30 ish years ago, especially in Minnesota of all places, heads would've snapped to get a double take at him. Society's changed. Growing up I would see gay men in media all the time who would be described as feminine by others. I was taught from a young age to be accepting of all sexualities and beliefs, and in the schools that I went to, gay people weren't teased, in fact they were more often than not some of the more popular kids in school who had many friends. So I guess for me, I think of androgyny in a more extreme way, closer to drag rather than little bits of femininity here and there. Interesting stuff!

I can see how culturally/generationally your experience of P would differ from mine and others.

I've said before that those who immediately said he died of AIDS were feeling validated in thinking he was gay all these years, forgetting that heteros get it too.

When I first heard P in 1976/77 I was around 16 and many of my loved ones were from a very oppressively religious background that was anti-gay. I was learning my own self and sexuality. I'm pansexual, which is less about gender and more about..well...the entire chemistry.

By 1980 I was married and had moved from NY to conservative Texas. Then my gay freinds started dying from a mytsterious disease, AIDS. I lost an entire generation of gay freinds within months, easily nearly 30 people gone without explanation cuz no one knew what AIDS was yet.

Add to that my actual family not understanding P's unusual fashion sense. Lol

Seemed like I was always defending someone that I cared about and trying to explain gayness. Sheesh

Funny thing is, years later when my child "came out" to me, she seemed disappointed that there was no fuss. By that time, several of her gay freinds had been kicked out by thier families and my home was always welcome to them. They all knew to come to me. And I am the mom who, as they drive away to go party, I yell, "I love you! Be careful and safe! Use condoms and dental dams!" They used to get so embarrassed and groan. Lol

I lost all of my gay friends all those years ago to stoopit AIDS, but they're remembered in my embracing the kids whose families tossed them out for being gay. Everyone's grown up now...except me. Lol

The one constant in this journey is my love of P and his art.

P.S. My family still doesn't get it, but that's ok.

khill95 said:

So you'd like some true masculinity, huh?

bonatoc said:

anangellooksdown said:

BillieBalloon said:

bonatoc said:

So you'd like some true masculinity, huh?

And that there is hard rock. One of em got a nice rack hasn't he?

They look unhappy cuz the leather underpants are hot chafe and they didn't apply cornstarch talcum powder to absorb the sweat.

Ew Lol

rogifan said:

anangellooksdown said:

We all have a part to us that is that of the other gender. When we are close to God, that other part expresses itself. Along with all of his feminine expressions, Prince was very macho. [Edited 11/15/16 14:41pm]

Yes. And Prince was just Prince. I don't think he was trying to be anything for anybody but himself.

BillieBalloon said:

About the Oprah segment...I think he was pulling her leg personally.

Exactly! Which is why he sometimes gets accused of being a hypocrite. Because he did whatever whenever then evolved into something else just as people were getting used to the first thing. So when he played rock then switched to blues or jazz people were upended...not realizing that he was always learning, changing and experimenting with everything he recognized about himself.

In a new thread someone posted about P having taken ballet lessons. Makes sense looking back on his performances, but it never crossed my mind that he took organized dance. He embraced so much of who he was throughout his lifetime.

He lived many lifetimes in a mere 57 years.

LBrent said:

LBrent said:

rogifan said:

BillieBalloon said:

About the Oprah segment...I think he was pulling her leg personally.

Do you think so? I think he was trying to frame it in a way that fit his personal mythology but what he was saying was probably true, about going to therapy I mean - why lie?

.

Always trying to be the controller of his own public image, I think he was trying to open up about something he'd gone through, but still wanted to hide behind the mask. I think the Oprah interview is a pivotal moment in his career, I can't even imagine doing what he did there at a time like that - I can never quite work out if it's incredible fortitude or incredibly cruel, but either way I think it was damaging to himself.

Yeah I think Prince was pretty plainly androgynous and it's one of my favourite things about him.

I mean, come on.

He wore it all well. That's for sure.

"what make a man a real man say he's 50/50 girl"