djThunderfunk said:

CAL3 said:

.

Let us not forget... as unfortunate as I believe it was...

.

Prince voiced his own support for censorship in the world of arts and entertainment.

And that says what? Just cause Prince said it doesn't make it right. ANYONE who supports censorship is wrong.

.

Just a point of interest that pertains to this thread.

.

You've got your opinion of censorship, he had his. I think his attitudes about censorship and vulgarity (for lack of a better word) in the arts speaks to the reasons he didn't release some of this stuff.

.

Unlike Prince, I happen to agree with your anti-censorship stance. But I feel that going in and robbing the man's tomb, so to speak, is distasteful. What's the good argument for releasing material he chose to leave unreleased (and therefore unfinished)?

CAL3 said:

djThunderfunk said:

And that says what? Just cause Prince said it doesn't make it right. ANYONE who supports censorship is wrong.

.

Just a point of interest that pertains to this thread.

.

You've got your opinion of censorship, he had his. I think his attitudes about censorship and vulgarity (for lack of a better word) in the arts speaks to the reasons he didn't release some of this stuff.

.

Unlike Prince, I happen to agree with your anti-censorship stance. But I feel that going in and robbing the man's tomb, so to speak, is distasteful. What's the good argument for releasing material he chose to leave unreleased (and therefore unfinished)?

Fair enough.

CAL3 said:

djThunderfunk said:

And that says what? Just cause Prince said it doesn't make it right. ANYONE who supports censorship is wrong.

.

Just a point of interest that pertains to this thread.

.

You've got your opinion of censorship, he had his. I think his attitudes about censorship and vulgarity (for lack of a better word) in the arts speaks to the reasons he didn't release some of this stuff.

.

Unlike Prince, I happen to agree with your anti-censorship stance. But I feel that going in and robbing the man's tomb, so to speak, is distasteful. What's the good argument for releasing material he chose to leave unreleased (and therefore unfinished)?

A fair point - although an alternative perspective could be made...

Did Prince really think he was going to finish 1,000+ songs? Why did he preserve them at all? There is history that he has wiped songs "forever" and they never made it into the vault at all.

So, it could be argued that Prince wanted to preserve this library for some future releases...or in posthumous releases - if he had got round to setting up instructions prior to his premature passing.

We don't know...

But we do know the music is there - and in a commercial world (something Prince was acutely au-fait with), then if there is money to be made...it will.

On the point of taste - same could be said of bootlegs when he was alive and never wished to be circulated - and I "disrespected" his wishes and collected plenty of them!

I believe, if vault music isn't released as is, then alot of "hardcore" fans will eventually lose their present fandom - because we have always been used to new product coming out almost every year since 1979.

3rdeyeboy said:

"A woman every day should be thanked, not disrespected, not raped or spanked"

Release it all as is. It shows a journey of respect and/or enlightenment.

i agree...the journey untouched

CAL3 said:

djThunderfunk said:

And that says what? Just cause Prince said it doesn't make it right. ANYONE who supports censorship is wrong.

.

Just a point of interest that pertains to this thread.

.

You've got your opinion of censorship, he had his. I think his attitudes about censorship and vulgarity (for lack of a better word) in the arts speaks to the reasons he didn't release some of this stuff.

.

Unlike Prince, I happen to agree with your anti-censorship stance. But I feel that going in and robbing the man's tomb, so to speak, is distasteful. What's the good argument for releasing material he chose to leave unreleased (and therefore unfinished)?

When did Prince come out in favor of censorship? As in, the restriction of an artist's work by government or some other outside authority (such as a religious authority) rather than by the artist's own choice--yes, obviously Prince chose not to release (or even create) certain kinds of work, and his restrictions on himself changed considerably from his early years to his late, but that's a different issue than censorship.

EddieC said:

CAL3 said:

.

Just a point of interest that pertains to this thread.

.

You've got your opinion of censorship, he had his. I think his attitudes about censorship and vulgarity (for lack of a better word) in the arts speaks to the reasons he didn't release some of this stuff.

.

Unlike Prince, I happen to agree with your anti-censorship stance. But I feel that going in and robbing the man's tomb, so to speak, is distasteful. What's the good argument for releasing material he chose to leave unreleased (and therefore unfinished)?

When did Prince come out in favor of censorship? As in, the restriction of an artist's work by government or some other outside authority (such as a religious authority) rather than by the artist's own choice--yes, obviously Prince chose not to release (or even create) certain kinds of work, and his restrictions on himself changed considerably from his early years to his late, but that's a different issue than censorship.

.

He specifically expressed a support for censorship in '99 while promoting 'Rave' during an interview with Carson Daly on TLR.

.

I'm not sure off hand if there are other specific examples, maybe others can cite additional instances.

You guys.....I'm feeling some kinda way about this conversation. I'd understand if P was still here. He'd have emotions about releasing material he previously may not have wanted released when he was alive. But he's in a better place, without a care in the world. No guilt, no anger, no contracts. His hands are clear of this now. Why are we basing what should happen to the vault on something he no longer has input?

CAL3 said:

EddieC said:

When did Prince come out in favor of censorship? As in, the restriction of an artist's work by government or some other outside authority (such as a religious authority) rather than by the artist's own choice--yes, obviously Prince chose not to release (or even create) certain kinds of work, and his restrictions on himself changed considerably from his early years to his late, but that's a different issue than censorship.

.

He specifically expressed a support for censorship in '99 while promoting 'Rave' during an interview with Carson Daly on TLR.

.

I'm not sure off hand if there are other specific examples, maybe others can cite additional instances.

What did he say? I'll look for a clip later, but in case I can't find it.

EddieC said:

CAL3 said:

.

He specifically expressed a support for censorship in '99 while promoting 'Rave' during an interview with Carson Daly on TLR.

.

I'm not sure off hand if there are other specific examples, maybe others can cite additional instances.

What did he say? I'll look for a clip later, but in case I can't find it.

.

I just searched for it on YouTube, which I know it was there a few weeks ago - and I'm not finding it.

.

I sincerely don't want to misquote or mischaracterize what he said. But he and Daly were talking about movies - sounded like 'Blair Witch Project,' which was out at the time, but they didn't name a title - and Prince was talking about how those kinds of movies (horror, I guess) become part of your after you see them. Though - notably - it didn't sound like he had seen the movie in question. He said it might be time for censorship - Carson asked him if he thought this extended into the music world. But off hand I don't remember if he said the censorship thing before or after Carson specifically mentioned music, but the gist of what P was getting at seemed clear.

.

Damn, wish I could find that interview.... It is a very fascinating interview. And props to Daly - who a lot of people thought was a numbskull at the time (Fallon on SNL: "I'm Carson Daly, and I'm a total tool!") - for trying hard to make a TRL interview substantive.

[Edited 11/9/16 8:02am]

My hope is that they would be left untouched.

A lot of Prince's more perverse diatribes in the early days were meant more for their shock value than to be taken literally.

CAL3 said:

EddieC said:

What did he say? I'll look for a clip later, but in case I can't find it.

.

I just searched for it on YouTube, which I know it was there a few weeks ago - and I'm not finding it.

.

I sincerely don't want to misquote or mischaracterize what he said. But he and Daly were talking about movies - sounded like 'Blair Witch Project,' which was out at the time, but they didn't name a title - and Prince was talking about how those kinds of movies (horror, I guess) become part of your after you see them. Though - notably - it didn't sound like he had seen the movie in question. He said it might be time for censorship - Carson asked him if he thought this extended into the music world. But off hand I don't remember if he said the censorship thing before or after Carson specifically mentioned music, but the gist of what P was getting at seemed clear.

.

Damn, wish I could find that interview.... It is a very fascinating interview. And props to Daly - who a lot of people thought was a numbskull at the time (Fallon on SNL: "I'm Carson Daly, and I'm a total tool!") - for trying hard to make a TRL interview substantive.

[Edited 11/9/16 8:02am]

Okay--I kind of remember that. He brought up the Blair Witch Project several times during that period, I think.

[Edited 11/9/16 12:21pm]

[Edited 11/9/16 12:22pm]

I have this interview saved on my HD. Just listened to it and Prince said this about horrormovies. He said this before Carson asked him if he thought this extended into the music.

Quote:

"What you watch and what you listen to turns into you and I think it's important that we start to have some sort of censorship. We've turned that word into a bad word but it's really that you know that we're kinda jackin our kids brains up, we need to start to examine this stuff a little bit more closely."

EddieC said:

CAL3 said:

.

I just searched for it on YouTube, which I know it was there a few weeks ago - and I'm not finding it.

.

I sincerely don't want to misquote or mischaracterize what he said. But he and Daly were talking about movies - sounded like 'Blair Witch Project,' which was out at the time, but they didn't name a title - and Prince was talking about how those kinds of movies (horror, I guess) become part of your after you see them. Though - notably - it didn't sound like he had seen the movie in question. He said it might be time for censorship - Carson asked him if he thought this extended into the music world. But off hand I don't remember if he said the censorship thing before or after Carson specifically mentioned music, but the gist of what P was getting at seemed clear.

.

Damn, wish I could find that interview.... It is a very fascinating interview. And props to Daly - who a lot of people thought was a numbskull at the time (Fallon on SNL: "I'm Carson Daly, and I'm a total tool!") - for trying hard to make a TRL interview substantive.

[Edited 11/9/16 8:02am]

Okay--I kind of remember that. He brought up the Blair Witch Project several times during that period, I think.

He says this about the question extended to the music world:

"I am not one to judge but I think we have to look at how things stack up to the truth."

At that moment he was interrupted by the caller...to adress her new question Prince talks again about

movies and having the opportunity to go to a theater after hours and see something that is gonna uplift his spirit.

"There's enough trouble in the world without going to the theater and looking at someone getting their brains hacked out."

lust said:

It's telling that of his entire released and unreleased catalogue, the only three examples we know of are songs he chose not to release (or when he did, that lyric was expunged). No way should they be released today. It would hurt his legend and clearly be against what he thought was appropriate for mass consumption. I think it's a safe bet that he'd be mortified to have those put out.

What utter crap !

luvsexy4all said:

3rdeyeboy said:

"A woman every day should be thanked, not disrespected, not raped or spanked"

Release it all as is. It shows a journey of respect and/or enlightenment.

i agree...the journey untouched

exactly my point !

InwardJim said:

My hope is that they would be left untouched.

A lot of Prince's more perverse diatribes in the early days were meant more for their shock value than to be taken literally.

Totally agree.

luvsexy4all said:

i agree...the journey untouched

Vannormal said:

lust said:

Vannormal said:

What utter crap !

A very well thought out, eloquent and thought provoking reply. I must now go and reconsider my position.

Prince has tens if not hundreds of songs containing even far more explicit content in his vault, I'm sure. That's why we love him so much. The daring part of him playing lyrically with it all.

-

Rape, as prince uses it in his lyrics has nothing to do with unwanted abusive behaviour, but everything with fantasy, lust and yes, love.

Rape as a brutal act itself is of course absolutely totally abusive and discusting - which needs serious attention and hard punishment.

-

Rape the way Prince sings about it, is like this; if for instance my boyfriend and I are in the mood, and I or he feels like, we can have a nice one, like a good wild raunchy pleasing fuck, (a bit) abusive even. Loved by both parties.

There ya go.

And what about all that raunchy wild shit Prince already sang about and released in his lifetime... ?

Before he got all crazy with religion.

Thàt's what made all the $$$ roll for him up until the day he died.

Specially in the days when he decided to leave the explicit content behind, and wasn't all that successful.

The only albums that Prince sell big time in his life, where those that had quite some heavy content, lyrically.

Release Prince's heaviest content right now, and he's the king again that he so badly was longing for, in the charts, on the bank, on the covers of magazines.

Yes they should release all of it.

And let the world (and the American puritists) see where preople will spend money on.

People don't only want soft shit and lovesongs by Prince.

It would do his legend more good than you might think.

Prince is no saint.

He was just a skinny sexy motherfucker with a great high voice, a huge libido, and quite a nasty and horny mind. Why else and for whom would he keep all that explicit stuff in the vault in the first place ?

Of course, if it was up to him right now, he would think and act different.

But then again, he's dead.

paradise000 said:

I have this interview saved on my HD. Just listened to it and Prince said this about horrormovies. He said this before Carson asked him if he thought this extended into the music.

Quote:

"What you watch and what you listen to turns into you and I think it's important that we start to have some sort of censorship. We've turned that word into a bad word but it's really that you know that we're kinda jackin our kids brains up, we need to start to examine this stuff a little bit more closely."

.

Thanks for the specifics on that.

.

I think the notable part of it is that he did say "what you watch" and "listen to" - implying he was talking about arts/entertainment in general.

.

Not that it means they shouldn't release his music untouched, if they're going to release songs containing mature content. I wouldn't ever want anyone to make censorial decisions. But at the same time, it just seems *to me, just my opinion* disrespectful in a way to rush to release songs containing content that we can surmise he no longer approved of.

.

It also seems weird that so many fans seem to want to insulate Prince as a cult figure that only some so-called "fams" truly "get/understand" - and at the same time some of those fans also clamor for widespread acceptance and hope/expect vault releases to sell like hotcakes. It's a weird contradiction some folks have: wanting to keep Prince fandom as a little "secret club" but simultaneously expecting the world at large to embrace his music.

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Honestly who cares how many people buy it. As a few others have pointed out, the eventual vault releases are highly unlikely to be commercially viable. That doesn't mean they won't still roll out releases. The Hendrix family has brought out tons of material over the last 20 years or so and most of it doesn't shift a ton of units. So what? Just because every Hendrix posthumous release doesn't go platinum (or gold) doesn't dim the man's reputation. Nor will it with Prince.

paradise000 said:

I have this interview saved on my HD. Just listened to it and Prince said this about horrormovies. He said this before Carson asked him if he thought this extended into the music.

Quote:

"What you watch and what you listen to turns into you and I think it's important that we start to have some sort of censorship. We've turned that word into a bad word but it's really that you know that we're kinda jackin our kids brains up, we need to start to examine this stuff a little bit more closely."

EddieC said:

Okay--I kind of remember that. He brought up the Blair Witch Project several times during that period, I think.

Prince became some sort of a bigot on certain things at least for some years back in the late 90's early 00's. See what he reportedly told to W&L about their sexual orientation.

Only a few years before, he would play the intro to Sexy MF on MTV (for the Emancipation launch) just because he was pissed to death that MTV told him not to sing any offensive lyrics, and he couldn't stand to be censored. That's the Prince I grew-up with.

Contrarily to some other fans I respected his freedom to embrace a different philosophy at a later stage of his life, and I felt it brought some interesting new conceptual dimensions to his lyrics and music. But I do not have to agree on everything just because he was Prince.

As someone said above, prince is gone and if there's an afterlife, it's highly unlikely that he'd be pissed about what happens to his works now. He had the freedom, in his lifetime, to erase any song he didn't wanted to see released after he passed, and according to an engineer he actually did it. What he left behind belongs to human heritage (well technically it belongs to his siblings, but you see my point).

Kafka made the mistake not to destroy his works in his lifetime and I believe we can be thankful that his friend Max Brod didn't respect his wishes and published the works instead of burning them.

I believe when we die, what is ours isn't anymore, and whatever we left behind is the responsibility of the living. I believe the living are always right. I'm actually a little upset when parents try to pressure their children not to sell their house or belonging after they pass for example: when you're gone you're gone, it's up to the living to choose which way they wish to honour you, if they do wish it at all.

databank said:

I believe when we die, what is ours isn't anymore, and whatever we left behind is the responsibility of the living. I believe the living are always right.

.

Will you still feel that way regardless of what the keepers of his legacy choose to do with his work?

Vannormal said:

And what about all that raunchy wild shit Prince already sang about and released in his lifetime... ?

Before he got all crazy with religion.

Thàt's what made all the $$$ roll for him up until the day he died.

Raunchy and wild he might have been but he was never wild enough to release the rape songs. I am glad he toned it down with age. It didn't disappear completely though but some of his best selling work was his tamest.

(a bit) abusive even. Loved by both parties.

What you and your guy get up to is up to you, and I am glad you both enjoy it - but how does it relate to a pro-rape lyric?

Rape, as prince uses it in his lyrics has nothing to do with unwanted abusive behaviour, but everything with fantasy, lust and yes, love.

Oh yes, the loving rape!!!!! Yeah, right.

Rape is NOT WANTED, otherwise it is not rape. You can't just redifine the word to mean something different.

.

This isn't just some delightful little fantasy that is being played with - this happens all too frequently (usually to women and girls) with sometimes the most dire consequences.

.

As a sample of 1, some of the wierdest, abusive occurances that have occured to me (in date order) are as follows (I know a lot of women will have suffered a lot worse):

1. At six a man tried to coerce me to his car and when I backed away, he grabbed at me. His hand grabbed my arm but he hadn't got a proper hold and I escaped and ran

2. My relative was raped and murdered

3. Four men picked me up (one limb each) and carried me off the beach (to the nearest bar) kicking and screaming and no-one did anything (obviously a joke but I didn't know any of them from Adam - and no-one on a packed beach thought to even question it)

4. A man broke into my home and hid under my bed. He crawled out just as I was falling asleep! (He was a bit of a stalker - I say a bit because it wasn't scary, just freaky)

5. A group of teenage boys (around 16 I guess) surrounded me and I don't know exactly what their plan was because when the first one layed a hand on me I held him over the 3 storey drop behind me and the others ran off

6. I was walking down a street and passed a man holding a toddler. I looked at the toddler, and the man turned and looked at me and he immediately put down the toddler and started following me. I walked faster and so did he. I started to run, and so did he. I ran until my lungs felt like fire, my heart was beating out of my chest and my legs felt like jelly. I was thinking they could give way any second and I would have to fight when I saw a group of people. I ran to them then looked around - and he had gone.

7. A group of 6 men were up to something strange when 3 of them started to talk to my boyfriend at a tourist site abroad we were just passing through. I saw this and went to go over when 3 of them stood in front of me and blocked my way. The men with my boyfriend kept looking at me as they spoke to him. I was trying to get to him but they were making it difficult. My boyfriend then returned and the others drifted back a bit. My boyfriend said "we have to leave now". I wanted to know why but he wouldn't tell me. Later, he explained they were trying to negotiate my purchase. My boyfriend, now husband, puts it down to some wierd joke. I don't know what it was, but it wasn't that.

8. I was kidnapped at knifepoint, threatened with death and rape was attempted. I thought he would kill me and I thought I was fighting for my life.

.

I have daughters of that age now and I don't want them to experience anything like any of the events above. I don't want to live in a society that normalises it either and makes out it is just a bit of fun. I don't want people who have been raped (I never have but even the attempt was bad enough) to be listening to their new P track and come across that shit. If it's fun, call it something else, don't call it rape. If its rape, don't promote it.

CAL3 said:

databank said:

I believe when we die, what is ours isn't anymore, and whatever we left behind is the responsibility of the living. I believe the living are always right.

.

Will you still feel that way regardless of what the keepers of his legacy choose to do with his work?

Prince isn't his work and his work isn't Prince. Curators have a duty to respect the works of arts they are given to take care of. If they do shit such as releasing outtakes remixed by producers, turning an outtake into a duet with a hot female singer, censoring lyrics for political correctness, compiling absolutely incohesive compilations, editing live shows in a poor manner or deciding that some tapes must be destroyed to save storage space (I'm trying to imagine all the insane shit they could do, but feel free to add ideas to that list), they'll deserve all the bashing, but that will be living peaople bashing other living people regarding works of art that the living can enjoy. Nothing to do with respecting Prince's memory or sensibilities.

.

Even those pics that shocked so many fans, of people making selfies on Prince's piano, I'll tell you: those people's behavior, shocking as it was, wasn't offensive towards Prince, who'd dead and couldn't care less, it was reprehensible because it was shocking to the living, i.e. those living people who cared for Prince and would like other people to show some respect for their mourning process.

.

Prince has and will have my respect forever, for all the inspiration he's provided me. And I always supported his freedom to do what he wanted, release what he wanted, and not release what he didn't want to. I think I've been among his most vocal supporters on this website over the years against those fans who said he should bend to the will of his record company or let a producer make artistic decisions for him, or that he owed his fans to do what they wanted him to do. But now he's gone, and the work he's left us isn't his anymore, it belongs to the living.

sunset3121 said:

Vannormal said:

And what about all that raunchy wild shit Prince already sang about and released in his lifetime... ?

Before he got all crazy with religion.

Thàt's what made all the $$$ roll for him up until the day he died.

Raunchy and wild he might have been but he was never wild enough to release the rape songs. I am glad he toned it down with age. It didn't disappear completely though but some of his best selling work was his tamest.

What you and your guy get up to is up to you, and I am glad you both enjoy it - but how does it relate to a pro-rape lyric?

Rape, as prince uses it in his lyrics has nothing to do with unwanted abusive behaviour, but everything with fantasy, lust and yes, love.

Oh yes, the loving rape!!!!! Yeah, right.

Rape is NOT WANTED, otherwise it is not rape. You can't just redifine the word to mean something different.

.

This isn't just some delightful little fantasy that is being played with - this happens all too frequently (usually to women and girls) with sometimes the most dire consequences.

.

As a sample of 1, some of the wierdest, abusive occurances that have occured to me (in date order) are as follows (I know a lot of women will have suffered a lot worse):

1. At six a man tried to coerce me to his car and when I backed away, he grabbed at me. His hand grabbed my arm but he hadn't got a proper hold and I escaped and ran

2. My relative was raped and murdered

3. Four men picked me up (one limb each) and carried me off the beach (to the nearest bar) kicking and screaming and no-one did anything (obviously a joke but I didn't know any of them from Adam - and no-one on a packed beach thought to even question it)

4. A man broke into my home and hid under my bed. He crawled out just as I was falling asleep! (He was a bit of a stalker - I say a bit because it wasn't scary, just freaky)

5. A group of teenage boys (around 16 I guess) surrounded me and I don't know exactly what their plan was because when the first one layed a hand on me I held him over the 3 storey drop behind me and the others ran off

6. I was walking down a street and passed a man holding a toddler. I looked at the toddler, and the man turned and looked at me and he immediately put down the toddler and started following me. I walked faster and so did he. I started to run, and so did he. I ran until my lungs felt like fire, my heart was beating out of my chest and my legs felt like jelly. I was thinking they could give way any second and I would have to fight when I saw a group of people. I ran to them then looked around - and he had gone.

7. A group of 6 men were up to something strange when 3 of them started to talk to my boyfriend at a tourist site abroad we were just passing through. I saw this and went to go over when 3 of them stood in front of me and blocked my way. The men with my boyfriend kept looking at me as they spoke to him. I was trying to get to him but they were making it difficult. My boyfriend then returned and the others drifted back a bit. My boyfriend said "we have to leave now". I wanted to know why but he wouldn't tell me. Later, he explained they were trying to negotiate my purchase. My boyfriend, now husband, puts it down to some wierd joke. I don't know what it was, but it wasn't that.

8. I was kidnapped at knifepoint, threatened with death and rape was attempted. I thought he would kill me and I thought I was fighting for my life.

.

I have daughters of that age now and I don't want them to experience anything like any of the events above. I don't want to live in a society that normalises it either and makes out it is just a bit of fun. I don't want people who have been raped (I never have but even the attempt was bad enough) to be listening to their new P track and come across that shit. If it's fun, call it something else, don't call it rape. If its rape, don't promote it.

I didn't care to reply but I'm 100% with you on the fact that it's utterly absurd to try and sell rape as a harmless fantasy, any discourse that attempts at minimizing the atrocities of it is a shameless excuse by men to maintain what is called the "culture of rape". Unfortunately what you've experienced is something most woman have experienced in their lifetime.

.

Now when it comes to works of art, they don't belong to the realm of rational discourse and must be left alone. If you believe for one second that songs can be the cause for the behavior of those men who harrassed and attacked you, you're being as delusionnal as those people who claim violent TV shows and movies are turning normal people into serial killers. Fiction doesn't turn sane individuals into psychopaths, and putting the blame for criminal or violent action on arts and fiction is the most delisional thing ever (and the best way to find a scape goat for all evils and avoid the more difficult task of solving the real problems we have in our societies). You need to pull yourself together.

.

People who have been raped have no more business asking for allusions to rape being edited off Prince songs than people who've been victims of car accidents asking for (random example #1) car crashes not being depicted in Hollywood movies, or people who suffer from cancer asking a singer to not release (random example #2) a song that would celebrate their worst enemy dying from cancer, or traumatized war veterans to (random example #3) condemn a film that depicts soldiers in a heroic manner because it would seem to promote war.

databank said:

sunset3121 said:

Oh yes, the loving rape!!!!! Yeah, right.

Rape is NOT WANTED, otherwise it is not rape. You can't just redifine the word to mean something different.

.

This isn't just some delightful little fantasy that is being played with - this happens all too frequently (usually to women and girls) with sometimes the most dire consequences.

.

As a sample of 1, some of the wierdest, abusive occurances that have occured to me (in date order) are as follows (I know a lot of women will have suffered a lot worse):

1. At six a man tried to coerce me to his car and when I backed away, he grabbed at me. His hand grabbed my arm but he hadn't got a proper hold and I escaped and ran

2. My relative was raped and murdered

3. Four men picked me up (one limb each) and carried me off the beach (to the nearest bar) kicking and screaming and no-one did anything (obviously a joke but I didn't know any of them from Adam - and no-one on a packed beach thought to even question it)

4. A man broke into my home and hid under my bed. He crawled out just as I was falling asleep! (He was a bit of a stalker - I say a bit because it wasn't scary, just freaky)

5. A group of teenage boys (around 16 I guess) surrounded me and I don't know exactly what their plan was because when the first one layed a hand on me I held him over the 3 storey drop behind me and the others ran off

6. I was walking down a street and passed a man holding a toddler. I looked at the toddler, and the man turned and looked at me and he immediately put down the toddler and started following me. I walked faster and so did he. I started to run, and so did he. I ran until my lungs felt like fire, my heart was beating out of my chest and my legs felt like jelly. I was thinking they could give way any second and I would have to fight when I saw a group of people. I ran to them then looked around - and he had gone.

7. A group of 6 men were up to something strange when 3 of them started to talk to my boyfriend at a tourist site abroad we were just passing through. I saw this and went to go over when 3 of them stood in front of me and blocked my way. The men with my boyfriend kept looking at me as they spoke to him. I was trying to get to him but they were making it difficult. My boyfriend then returned and the others drifted back a bit. My boyfriend said "we have to leave now". I wanted to know why but he wouldn't tell me. Later, he explained they were trying to negotiate my purchase. My boyfriend, now husband, puts it down to some wierd joke. I don't know what it was, but it wasn't that.

8. I was kidnapped at knifepoint, threatened with death and rape was attempted. I thought he would kill me and I thought I was fighting for my life.

.

I have daughters of that age now and I don't want them to experience anything like any of the events above. I don't want to live in a society that normalises it either and makes out it is just a bit of fun. I don't want people who have been raped (I never have but even the attempt was bad enough) to be listening to their new P track and come across that shit. If it's fun, call it something else, don't call it rape. If its rape, don't promote it.

I didn't care to reply but I'm 100% with you on the fact that it's utterly absurd to try and sell rape as a harmless fantasy, any discourse that attempts at minimizing the atrocities of it is a shameless excuse by men to maintain what is called the "culture of rape". Unfortunately what you've experienced is something most woman have experienced in their lifetime.

.

Now when it comes to works of art, they don't belong to the realm of rational discourse and must be left alone. If you believe for one second that songs can be the cause for the behavior of those men who harrassed and attacked you, you're being as delusionnal as those people who claim violent TV shows and movies are turning normal people into serial killers. Fiction doesn't turn sane individuals into psychopaths, and putting the blame for criminal or violent action on arts and fiction is the most delisional thing ever (and the best way to find a scape goat for all evils and avoid the more difficult task of solving the real problems we have in our societies). You need to pull yourself together.

.

People who have been raped have no more business asking for allusions to rape being edited off Prince songs than people who've been victims of car accidents asking for (random example #1) car crashes not being depicted in Hollywood movies, or people who suffer from cancer asking a singer to not release (random example #2) a song that would celebrate their worst enemy dying from cancer, or traumatized war veterans to (random example #3) condemn a film that depicts soldiers in a heroic manner because it would seem to promote war.

I agree. It was his choice to include or not to include. It is not an easy choice to include pro-rape lyrics in a song for pubic release. He chose not to. I am just against his hand being forced differently now that he is dead. Can people not respect the choice that he made?

Also, the examples you chose are not similar at all. I watch lots of films with rape, murder and all sorts of abuse with no problem. The kind of thing you see in Hollywood movies is never a trigger. The culprits are always villified. The kind of stuff that treats rape as a bit of fun with no condemnation is what makes me angry. That is not common in material for mass consumption.

And if you think the attitude of the people around does not affect the liklihood of someone commiting a crime such as rape then think again. There are lots of people who have commited crimes only when in a group that normalised such behaviour and at no other point in their lives.

sunset3121 said:

Vannormal said:

And what about all that raunchy wild shit Prince already sang about and released in his lifetime... ?

Before he got all crazy with religion.

Thàt's what made all the $$$ roll for him up until the day he died.

Raunchy and wild he might have been but he was never wild enough to release the rape songs. I am glad he toned it down with age. It didn't disappear completely though but some of his best selling work was his tamest.

What you and your guy get up to is up to you, and I am glad you both enjoy it - but how does it relate to a pro-rape lyric?

Rape, as prince uses it in his lyrics has nothing to do with unwanted abusive behaviour, but everything with fantasy, lust and yes, love.

Oh yes, the loving rape!!!!! Yeah, right.

Rape is NOT WANTED, otherwise it is not rape. You can't just redifine the word to mean something different.

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This isn't just some delightful little fantasy that is being played with - this happens all too frequently (usually to women and girls) with sometimes the most dire consequences.

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As a sample of 1, some of the wierdest, abusive occurances that have occured to me (in date order) are as follows (I know a lot of women will have suffered a lot worse):

1. At six a man tried to coerce me to his car and when I backed away, he grabbed at me. His hand grabbed my arm but he hadn't got a proper hold and I escaped and ran

2. My relative was raped and murdered

3. Four men picked me up (one limb each) and carried me off the beach (to the nearest bar) kicking and screaming and no-one did anything (obviously a joke but I didn't know any of them from Adam - and no-one on a packed beach thought to even question it)

4. A man broke into my home and hid under my bed. He crawled out just as I was falling asleep! (He was a bit of a stalker - I say a bit because it wasn't scary, just freaky)

5. A group of teenage boys (around 16 I guess) surrounded me and I don't know exactly what their plan was because when the first one layed a hand on me I held him over the 3 storey drop behind me and the others ran off

6. I was walking down a street and passed a man holding a toddler. I looked at the toddler, and the man turned and looked at me and he immediately put down the toddler and started following me. I walked faster and so did he. I started to run, and so did he. I ran until my lungs felt like fire, my heart was beating out of my chest and my legs felt like jelly. I was thinking they could give way any second and I would have to fight when I saw a group of people. I ran to them then looked around - and he had gone.

7. A group of 6 men were up to something strange when 3 of them started to talk to my boyfriend at a tourist site abroad we were just passing through. I saw this and went to go over when 3 of them stood in front of me and blocked my way. The men with my boyfriend kept looking at me as they spoke to him. I was trying to get to him but they were making it difficult. My boyfriend then returned and the others drifted back a bit. My boyfriend said "we have to leave now". I wanted to know why but he wouldn't tell me. Later, he explained they were trying to negotiate my purchase. My boyfriend, now husband, puts it down to some wierd joke. I don't know what it was, but it wasn't that.

8. I was kidnapped at knifepoint, threatened with death and rape was attempted. I thought he would kill me and I thought I was fighting for my life.

.

I have daughters of that age now and I don't want them to experience anything like any of the events above. I don't want to live in a society that normalises it either and makes out it is just a bit of fun. I don't want people who have been raped (I never have but even the attempt was bad enough) to be listening to their new P track and come across that shit. If it's fun, call it something else, don't call it rape. If its rape, don't promote it.

http://www.rad-systems.com/

http://www.thehomesecurit...ent=Tasers

I'm sorry for your experiences, but, censoring Prince's music has nothing to do with that and will not help if it happens again.

[Edited 11/10/16 13:51pm]

sunset3121 said:

databank said:

I didn't care to reply but I'm 100% with you on the fact that it's utterly absurd to try and sell rape as a harmless fantasy, any discourse that attempts at minimizing the atrocities of it is a shameless excuse by men to maintain what is called the "culture of rape". Unfortunately what you've experienced is something most woman have experienced in their lifetime.

.

Now when it comes to works of art, they don't belong to the realm of rational discourse and must be left alone. If you believe for one second that songs can be the cause for the behavior of those men who harrassed and attacked you, you're being as delusionnal as those people who claim violent TV shows and movies are turning normal people into serial killers. Fiction doesn't turn sane individuals into psychopaths, and putting the blame for criminal or violent action on arts and fiction is the most delisional thing ever (and the best way to find a scape goat for all evils and avoid the more difficult task of solving the real problems we have in our societies). You need to pull yourself together.

.

People who have been raped have no more business asking for allusions to rape being edited off Prince songs than people who've been victims of car accidents asking for (random example #1) car crashes not being depicted in Hollywood movies, or people who suffer from cancer asking a singer to not release (random example #2) a song that would celebrate their worst enemy dying from cancer, or traumatized war veterans to (random example #3) condemn a film that depicts soldiers in a heroic manner because it would seem to promote war.

I agree. It was his choice to include or not to include. It is not an easy choice to include pro-rape lyrics in a song for pubic release. He chose not to. I am just against his hand being forced differently now that he is dead. Can people not respect the choice that he made?

While I understand your position, I've expressed my views on this in other replies in this thread, so I won't repeat myself.

.

Also, the examples you chose are not similar at all. I watch lots of films with rape, murder and all sorts of abuse with no problem. The kind of thing you see in Hollywood movies is never a trigger. The culprits are always villified. The kind of stuff that treats rape as a bit of fun with no condemnation is what makes me angry. That is not common in material for mass consumption.

I know a fait amount of books, movies and series where culprits are not entirely vilified, if at all. Either because the story is being told from their perspective; or because the writer choses to be amoral (or even, in some cases, immoral); or because the writer wishes to show the complexities of the human soul, i.e. that even monsters have a human side (forgive the Godwin Point, but they even did this with Hitler in this marvelous German film, Downfall, and it took guts to show Hitler's human side given the crimes he's committed, but I could also name a lot of works showcasing gangsters, murderers, serial killers, rapists, children abusers, criminal wars, you name it...).

Besides, let us note that in none of those three songs does Prince depict a rapist that has raped and gets away with it. He emits the idea, maybe even desire of doing so, but that's not quite the same because one can assume the character did not, in the end, lose control. At the very least we do not know the outcome. Had Prince actually depicted the consumed act of rape in an unapologetic song, I would still take a stand against censorship but my opinion of said song would largely depend on the relevance of the story (i.e. was the work of art strong and complex enough to justify endorsement of a criminal action, or was it just an unnecessary cheap thrill for its author?).

In all cases I also ask myself 'was Prince an idiot", because by assuming that he could write this and think it was OK but simply too controversial for release, we assume that he didn't measure the real violence of his words. I find this interesting because WE are expected to cringe, and most of us did when we first heard those lyrics (I certainly did) but we assume that Prince did not, i.e. that he was personally experiencing a desire for rape instead of depicting a character that was immoral and whose choice of words were, to say the least, of poor taste.

Which leads me to my last point: I believe one thing is seriously compromising any type of discussion about it here: people, and I suspect you too, tend to assume that songs and poems are all, by nature, autobiographic works, and that the opinions and thoughts they describe are necessarily the views of the author. On the other hand, narrative works such as films and books are usually perceived as works of fiction. Therefore a songwriter will more promply be blamed for what "he/she" says. This is totally wrong. While a work of fiction can, in fact, contain a lot of views or experiences from its author thru the characters, a song can be a pure first person narration work of fiction. Prince has undoubtably written a lot of personal lyrics, but even those contained a fair amount of exaggeration or fiction for the sake of lyricism. On the other hand a lot of songs are just ideas he had about a topic that could make a good song. Bob George is an obvious example: no one thinks of saying it's wrong because Prince has, in fact, murdered an unfaithful lover with a machine gun! But there are many others including among songs he wrote for The Time or songs written from a female POV that he gave to female singers. Therefore I am deeply embarrassed at the notion that those three songs necessarily express a personal stand in favor of rape, or even the idea of rape. Those songs aren't pamphlets, they're merely stories. How we perceive the character and his actions/thoughts is left to our moral judgement. Prince may have felt an urge for rape. But he may not. And until this is documented by some past associate, we can assume this is mere fiction given that Prince has a long history of defending feminist values.

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And if you think the attitude of the people around does not affect the liklihood of someone commiting a crime such as rape then think again. There are lots of people who have commited crimes only when in a group that normalised such behaviour and at no other point in their lives.

Absolutely. But we're talking about songs, works of art, fiction that exist outside the realm of rationalization and reality. I would vividly condemn an article or an essay that stands in favor of art, because articles and essays are not works of art. I would vividly condemn anyone who would say in a real life situation any of the 3 sentences quoted at the beginning of this thread. And I still firmly maintain that while you are correct in saying that the behavior of one's peers, in the real world, can encourage one to fall into immoral behaviors (or even insane or criminal ones), works of art are incapable of this. One doesn't turn into a rapist just because of a song.