I've been listening to this for 30 some years and i never noticed the change in sound on the dvd in the song purple rain at about 133;06. i thought it might have been the dvd so, since i have two copies i checked the other, same thing, anyone else ever hear this? It's about 133:06, i don't think it's on the studio version, i'll have to check, can't believe how obvious it is and can't believe how i never noticed it. I know it was edited, of course, just not that it was so obvious.

PeteSilas said:

I've been listening to this for 30 some years and i never noticed the change in sound on the dvd in the song purple rain at about 133;06. i thought it might have been the dvd so, since i have two copies i checked the other, same thing, anyone else ever hear this? It's about 133:06, i don't think it's on the studio version, i'll have to check, can't believe how obvious it is and can't believe how i never noticed it. I know it was edited, of course, just not that it was so obvious.

Um...there is no studio version. The version in the movie is from the August 1983 gig.

However, while I'm not queuing up my DVD right now, I have always noticed what sounds like an edit on the song itself. It's at about the 6:13 mark. It sounds like they tried to edit it on a snare hit, and got a double snare. You can almost feel the song take another breath in that moment, and it's now a bit longer and out of sync with any metronome that could be set with it.

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TrivialPursuit said:

Um...there is no studio version. The version in the movie is from the August 1983 gig.

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Well, that isn't strictly correct. Of course, the August 3rd 1983 recording was heavily finessed at Sunset Sound in August and September of 1983 (mixing/editing, processing-digital delay & reverb), and overdubbed (or re-recorded) in a number of places to dress up the roughness around the edges (aside from the string arrangement, including overdubbed and/or re-recorded vocals, a few guitar overdubs, a few Linn overdubs, and possibly some of the bassline was re-recorded). Some small elements were worked out of the mix (a little of Fink's Yamaha piano), or so low in the mix as to be almost indiscernable (Lisa's OB-XA synth strings). The 11+ minute demo of the studio-enhanced recording has some guitar (and matching string) overdubs cut from the omitted verse.

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There is also the studio-recorded instrumental, briefly excerpted in the film on the 'cassette tape' provided by W&L's characters, and also the earlier studio demo he shared with Stevie Nicks.

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I can't decide whether or not the album version's guitar opening (followed by white noise to cover the omitted segments of the recording), has been cleanly re-recorded in the studio. I cross-compared intensively the live recording and demo, and it seemed to me to be isolated from a part of the extended beginning of the song (although not the actual opening bars), and repurposed as the opening to the album edit.

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I also noticed that he uses the original proper opening (taken directly from the recording from the 08/03/1983 live performance, and most likely the 11+ minute unedited studio-enhanced version, more specifically) as tape playback/sample to open many of his 1990s-era Purple Rain performances, from 1991 onwards (noteably, on the Arsenio Hall Show perf. from that year, and at least as late as the Rave un2 the Year 2000 one). It is very identifiably Wendy's handiwork there from that very moment on that very recording.

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Would using the album version's opening be too obviously pre-recorded, and did his other guitarists have difficulty, or lack the gear on stage, in matching exactly that classic chorused sound, to the satisfaction of his crowds?

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[Edited 10/27/16 1:04am]

TrivialPursuit said:

PeteSilas said:

I've been listening to this for 30 some years and i never noticed the change in sound on the dvd in the song purple rain at about 133;06. i thought it might have been the dvd so, since i have two copies i checked the other, same thing, anyone else ever hear this? It's about 133:06, i don't think it's on the studio version, i'll have to check, can't believe how obvious it is and can't believe how i never noticed it. I know it was edited, of course, just not that it was so obvious.

Um...there is no studio version. The version in the movie is from the August 1983 gig.

However, while I'm not queuing up my DVD right now, I have always noticed what sounds like an edit on the song itself. It's at about the 6:13 mark. It sounds like they tried to edit it on a snare hit, and got a double snare. You can almost feel the song take another breath in that moment, and it's now a bit longer and out of sync with any metronome that could be set with it.

that's probably the edit i'm speaking of, i'll have to listen to the studio version in awhile. I do know that lots of the first avenue version did make it to the final version but lots of the vocals at the end were done in the studio, most people know that a verse was cut out of it which was a smart revision. By and large, considering a lot of it is live, it was a great vocal performance. I think though, that like Let's Go Crazy, the version we know of had lots of work done in the studio. Indeed, I'd never heard him quite play the LGC solo anywhere near as precise as he did in the studio. I think it's true for Purple Rain too, i just think it's odd that I never heard a cut like that in all the years I've heard the song, admittedly, it wasn't ever a fave of mine but I'm learning to play it so i'm listening closer.

imprimis said:

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TrivialPursuit said:

Um...there is no studio version. The version in the movie is from the August 1983 gig.

___________________________________________________________________________

.

Well, that isn't strictly correct. Of course, the August 3rd 1983 recording was heavily finessed at Sunset Sound in August and September of 1983 (mixing/editing, processing-digital delay & reverb), and overdubbed (or re-recorded) in a number of places to dress up the roughness around the edges (aside from the string arrangement, including overdubbed and/or re-recorded vocals, a few guitar overdubs, a few Linn overdubs, and possibly some of the bassline was re-recorded). Some small elements were worked out of the mix (a little of Fink's Yamaha piano), or so low in the mix as to be almost indiscernable (Lisa's OB-XA synth strings). The 11+ minute demo of the studio-enhanced recording has some guitar (and matching string) overdubs cut from the omitted verse.

.

There is also the studio-recorded instrumental, briefly excerpted in the film on the 'cassette tape' provided by W&L's characters, and also the earlier studio demo he shared with Stevie Nicks.

.

I can't decide whether or not the album version's guitar opening (followed by white noise to cover the omitted segments of the recording), has been cleanly re-recorded in the studio. I cross-compared intensively the live recording and demo, and it seemed to me to be isolated from a part of the extended beginning of the song (although not the actual opening bars), and repurposed as the opening to the album edit.

.

I also noticed that he uses the original proper opening (taken directly from the recording from the 08/03/1983 live performance, and most likely the 11+ minute unedited studio-enhanced version, more specifically) as tape playback/sample to open many of his 1990s-era Purple Rain performances, from 1991 onwards (noteably, on the Arsenio Hall Show perf. from that year, and at least as late as the Rave un2 the Year 2000 one). It is very identifiably Wendy's handiwork there from that very moment on that very recording.

.

Would using the album version's opening be too obviously pre-recorded, and did his other guitarists have difficulty, or lack the gear on stage, in matching exactly that classic chorused sound, to the satisfaction of his crowds?

.

[Edited 10/27/16 1:04am]

I don't know about the opening, i wouldn't be surprised if it was cut in the studio, i always thought the "white noise" was just a snare sound, not something used to hide an edit, but it's a great point. W&L say that they did invent the opening of Purple Rain but that Prince did something to change the chords, I forgot their exact words (it's on the 2004 20 year re-release of dvd bonus materials) then they played both versions to demonstrate, of course the final version was better. I'll check the arsenio show, i never noticed it was prerecorded. somethings prince did that you'd never think prince would do, sometimes he lipsynched, sometimes he played studio tracks for some of his songs as he sang live. One things for sure, he didn't have to like so many of the artists of the last few years have.

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[Edited 10/27/16 2:38am]

PeteSilas said

I don't know about the opening, i wouldn't be surprised if it was cut in the studio, i always thought the "white noise" was just a snare sound, not something used to hide an edit, but it's a great point. W&L say that they did invent the opening of Purple Rain but that Prince did something to change the chords, I forgot their exact words (it's on the 2004 20 year re-release of dvd bonus materials) then they played both versions to demonstrate, of course the final version was better. I'll check the arsenio show, i never noticed it was prerecorded. somethings prince did that you'd never think prince would do, sometimes he lipsynched, sometimes he played studio tracks for some of his songs as he sang live. One things for sure, he didn't have to like so many of the artists of the last few years have.

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I believe the 'white noise' sound is played on an OB-8 or OB-XA, and is the same patch as used circa 1982 and 1983 in the live concert performances of such songs as 'Automatic' (also during the 'Hit and Run' 1986 medley performance of this) and 'International Lover'. It also appears on 'Modernaire'. Andre uses it on 'Kelly's Eyes'.

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[Edited 10/27/16 12:22pm]

PeteSilas said:

. Indeed, I'd never heard him quite play the LGC solo anywhere near as precise as he did in the studio. I think it's true for Purple Rain too, i just think it's odd that I never heard a cut like that in all the years I've heard the song, admittedly, it wasn't ever a fave of mine but I'm learning to play it so i'm listening closer.

It's funny you mentioned LGC. As a sidenote, I've noticed (again?) in recent months, with watching videos on YT etc,. that the solo and ending of LGC is really an idea he had at least a few years before. I believe he was using a loose version of it on the Controversy tour and probably did on the 1999 tour. We often associate lingering ideas popping up in once place then being used again on record soon after, but the ending of LGC was really one of the first things we can see like that.

As far as "Purple Rain", the edit I was referring to has always bugged me. It's so obvious. And while I've never compared it to the First Avenue gig, I assume it was possibly edited for the sheer sake of time. So much on that album was, which makes me anticipatory of the expanded set next year. Man, if that has "Computer Blue" on it alone, it's worth the cost. Or even "Father's Song".

imprimis said:

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TrivialPursuit said:

Um...there is no studio version. The version in the movie is from the August 1983 gig.

___________________________________________________________________________

.

.

.

I also noticed that he uses the original proper opening (taken directly from the recording from the 08/03/1983 live performance, and most likely the 11+ minute unedited studio-enhanced version, more specifically) as tape playback/sample to open many of his 1990s-era Purple Rain performances, from 1991 onwards (noteably, on the Arsenio Hall Show perf. from that year, and at least as late as the Rave un2 the Year 2000 one). It is very identifiably Wendy's handiwork there from that very moment on that very recording.

.

[Edited 10/27/16 1:04am]

are you sure that the intro is a recording? i just watched arsenio, it sounded pretty live. I'll check the first ave performance.

PeteSilas said:

W&L say that they did invent the opening of Purple Rain but that Prince did something to change the chords, I forgot their exact words (it's on the 2004 20 year re-release of dvd bonus materials) then they played both versions to demonstrate, of course the final version was better.

If memory serves, I think Wendy talked about how Prince's original chords were pretty basic. Bb - Gm - F - Eb. But Wendy added things like a sustained 4th, a 6th, or a 7th or whatever note to some of those chords, and gave it a warmer feeling.

The final chords Wendy enhanced were more colorful: Bbsus2 - Gm7(add C) - F - Eb (add F).

PeteSilas said:

imprimis said:

___________________________________________________________________________

TrivialPursuit said:

Um...there is no studio version. The version in the movie is from the August 1983 gig.

___________________________________________________________________________

.

.

.

I also noticed that he uses the original proper opening (taken directly from the recording from the 08/03/1983 live performance, and most likely the 11+ minute unedited studio-enhanced version, more specifically) as tape playback/sample to open many of his 1990s-era Purple Rain performances, from 1991 onwards (noteably, on the Arsenio Hall Show perf. from that year, and at least as late as the Rave un2 the Year 2000 one). It is very identifiably Wendy's handiwork there from that very moment on that very recording.

.

[Edited 10/27/16 1:04am]

are you sure that the intro is a recording? i just watched arsenio, it sounded pretty live. I'll check the first ave performance.

.

Yes, it is pre-recorded. It is the exact same pre-recorded opening he used on numerous live PR performances between circa Late 1991 - 1999. I believe it is from drawn from the unedited, 10+ minute Sunset-enhanced 'Purple Rain', and is the actual opening (as played by W. Melvoin) to the 08/03/1983 First Avenue performance.

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The Arsenio performance to which I am referring is the 1991 one with Patti Labelle present, and is far from being 'pretty live'. The rest of the performance of the song is actual live playing and singing, however.

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Getting that distinct sound seems quite implausible for a live opening. Even the PR Tour didn't reproduce it faithfully (not even the cleaned up, slightly processed P&TR Live Syracuse telecast). Something peculiar to the feel of the gear and mood used by P's camp Summer/Fall 1983.

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I presume he used the original opening as playback, because it would be too overt to use the 'cleanroom' one that appeared on the album (Paula Abdul, M/V, etc. lipsyncing/playback controversies were very fresh at this time), and to make it unmistakable to audiences and cater to their expectations he chose to use an authentic 'vintage' one nonetheless, and this was the next best specimen on hand.

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The rest of this rhythm section is played on a Korg or Roland piano voice for the remainder of the performance.

[Edited 10/30/16 15:22pm]

You know I never even noticed the vocals had been overdubbed before. I suppose he must have, I don't doubt your research imprimis, but he pretty much just recreated the gig vocals right down to every intonation didn't he? Even the backing vocals are fully intact at the gig, and the Revolution did some pretty dodgy backing vocals in their time

[Edited 10/30/16 15:36pm]

jaawwnn said:

You know I never even noticed the vocals had been overdubbed before. I suppose he must have, I don't doubt your research imprimis, but he pretty much just recreated the gig vocals right down to every intonation didn't he? Even the backing vocals are fully intact at the gig, and the Revolution did some pretty dodgy backing vocals in their time

[Edited 10/30/16 15:36pm]

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Virtually all of the background vocals from the August 1983 Benefit First Avenue performance are 'in tact' on the album version, but they have been carefully finessed, reverbed, mixed appropriately, and overdubbed in some areas with additional ones. Of course, it was all recorded on a 24-track from the mobile recording RV.

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The Betamax 'pro shot' recording is pretty muddled quality-wise.

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A very minor example, but the 'Whoo!' during the 'Honey, I know time's are changing' has been added.

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If you listen to the 1983 'demo' from Blast from the Past 2.0, how much work has been done in the area of [backing] vocals and processing generally on the completed album version becomes apparent.

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[Edited 10/30/16 16:00pm]

PeteSilas said:

Wait, writing credit? No one said anything about that. Wendy just said she changed the chords a bit from what Prince presented her with, she wasn't complaining or anything. PeteSilas just got it a bit backward on who wrote it first and who changed it, no biggie.

[Edited 10/30/16 19:21pm]

imprimis said:

PeteSilas said:

are you sure that the intro is a recording? i just watched arsenio, it sounded pretty live. I'll check the first ave performance.

.

Yes, it is pre-recorded. It is the exact same pre-recorded opening he used on numerous live PR performances between circa Late 1991 - 1999. I believe it is from drawn from the unedited, 10+ minute Sunset-enhanced 'Purple Rain', and is the actual opening (as played by W. Melvoin) to the 08/03/1983 First Avenue performance.

.

The Arsenio performance to which I am referring is the 1991 one with Patti Labelle present, and is far from being 'pretty live'. The rest of the performance of the song is actual live playing and singing, however.

.

Getting that distinct sound seems quite implausible for a live opening. Even the PR Tour didn't reproduce it faithfully (not even the cleaned up, slightly processed P&TR Live Syracuse telecast). Something peculiar to the feel of the gear and mood used by P's camp Summer/Fall 1983.

.

I presume he used the original opening as playback, because it would be too overt to use the 'cleanroom' one that appeared on the album (Paula Abdul, M/V, etc. lipsyncing/playback controversies were very fresh at this time), and to make it unmistakable to audiences and cater to their expectations he chose to use an authentic 'vintage' one nonetheless, and this was the next best specimen on hand.

.

The rest of this rhythm section is played on a Korg or Roland piano voice for the remainder of the performance.

[Edited 10/30/16 15:22pm]

i tried listening/watching both last night, i'll listen again later, i couldn't really tell. I do know that Miko was quite capable so he wouldn't need a recording but they also had him wailing the chords in the dark on arsenio.

PeteSilas said:

i tried listening/watching both last night, i'll listen again later, i couldn't really tell. I do know that Miko was quite capable so he wouldn't need a recording but they also had him wailing the chords in the dark on arsenio.

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I believe it is Levi on [air] guitar, as the band is now in its Diamond and Pearls Tour-era NPG configuration. Although Miko and Levi are superb musicians, and Miko excels in particular at convincingly emulating the playing style of other guitarists, it is clearly a pre-recorded opening with a distinct sound peculiar to Wendy's 1983 rig. This same recording is used on the D&P Tour, and I believe on Act I and Act II, and also appears on the Rave un2 the Year 2000 televised concert. After the Nude Tour, the opening wasn't played live again for quite some number of years.

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[Edited 10/30/16 21:09pm]

imprimis said:

PeteSilas said:

i tried listening/watching both last night, i'll listen again later, i couldn't really tell. I do know that Miko was quite capable so he wouldn't need a recording but they also had him wailing the chords in the dark on arsenio.

.

I believe it is Levi on [air] guitar, as the band is now in its Diamond and Pearls Tour-era NPG configuration. Although Miko and Levi are superb musicians, and Miko excels in particular at convincingly emulating the playing style of other guitarists, it is clearly a pre-recorded opening with a distinct sound peculiar to Wendy's 1983 rig. This same recording is used on the D&P Tour, and I believe on Act I and Act II, and also appears on the Rave un2 the Year 2000 televised concert. After the Nude Tour, the opening wasn't played live again for quite some number of years.

.

[Edited 10/30/16 21:09pm]

i believe you, i'm just trying to find a good enough sound where I can tell. I'm watching covers of it too, there is a kid who did a fantastic job of it on april 29.

jaawwnn said:

DollyDagger said:

jaawwnn said:

Wait, writing credit? No one said anything about that. Wendy just said she changed the chords a bit from what Prince presented her with, she wasn't complaining or anything. PeteSilas just got it a bit backward on who wrote it first and who changed it, no biggie.

[Edited 10/30/16 19:21pm]

Thank you for mentioning JB's skills on When The Levee Breaks. ❤️❤️ Heaven!! This whole conversation makes me so happy and I don't even play. JMO, Wendy's chords on that song are so beautiful and complex sounding within the framework of that part, I could cry. Those songs were once in a lifetime to my ears. Earlier and later Prince is something I can't live without, but some of that PR music still moves me to another level. It was really meaty (for lack of a better word).

ya, it's an epic song, something pretty different from anything Prince had done before. As I listen to it and here all the layers, jesus, what a song! I never liked it at the time because a girl from highschool died right when it was being played all the time and it made me think of her sad life. Even now, when I practice it, my mind drifts to the hard life of my mother and it get choked up. It is a pretty sad song.

PeteSilas said:

PeteSilas said:

imprimis said:

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I believe it is Levi on [air] guitar, as the band is now in its Diamond and Pearls Tour-era NPG configuration. Although Miko and Levi are superb musicians, and Miko excels in particular at convincingly emulating the playing style of other guitarists, it is clearly a pre-recorded opening with a distinct sound peculiar to Wendy's 1983 rig. This same recording is used on the D&P Tour, and I believe on Act I and Act II, and also appears on the Rave un2 the Year 2000 televised concert. After the Nude Tour, the opening wasn't played live again for quite some number of years.

.

[Edited 10/30/16 21:09pm]

i believe you, i'm just trying to find a good enough sound where I can tell. I'm watching covers of it too, there is a kid who did a fantastic job of it on april 29.

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Also used in the 'Rock in Rio' Early '91 performance.