Eight is amazing. But Sixteen is really quite innovative for it's time. It takes what was done on Eight, but the production approach is more typical of late 90s hip-hop.

In response to some comments above, I'd say 16 is one of the most daring, out of the box things Prince has ever done. It's true that it's dark, it's almost an instrumental extension of The Black Album. It hasn't aged that much by comparison to most of those jazz-fusion records from the 80's, or even the more experimental stuff, that relied mostly on synthesizers. I think the strength in both 8 and 16 is precisely that, as with most of Prince's music at that time, they belong in the Prince bubble and have a sound palette that's so typical of him that you tend to forget when the music is from.

8 has definitely gained a well deserved cult status today. For some reason 16 hasn't, and I can't understand why. Both are amazing and I love the chilled out intimacy of 8, but 16 is incredible funk, super agressive, totally unlike anything else.

So maybe 16 is a little underrated. As mentioned above, BTW, it makes no sense to try and evaluate them as "jazz" records, whatever a "jazz record" is anyway given how diverse the genre is, and how many subgenres it comprises. They're definitely "Prince" records, admitting that Prince had become a subgenre by himself when he moved away from the Minneapolis sound he had created. I do not know any "jazz" record nor any intrumental jazz-funk project that even remotely sounds like Madhouse, which makes the whole thing pretty impressive IMHO.

I hope in the future the "hidden" part of Prince's canon, i.e. the side projects, will be rediscovered and receive some praise by the music press. I loved the Wax Poetics article on Madhouse (even though, as usual, it focused almost only on 8 and quickly mentioned 16 in passing).

I think Prince was quite fond of those records, since he was planning to rerelease them thru Edel in the 90's.

Both incarnations of 24 have their merits, too, IMHO, though each for very different reasons. I hope those get released one day. I'd also be curious to hear the 1995 nreconfiguration of 1993's 24, too, because from what I can tell the tracklist makes no sense at all by comparison to the original (the 2 additional tracks have a sound palette that's violently different from the rest), but maybe hearing it as it was would make me change my mind.

databank said:

In response to some comments above, I'd say 16 is one of the most daring, out of the box things Prince has ever done. It's true that it's dark, it's almost an instrumental extension of The Black Album. It hasn't aged that much by comparison to most of those jazz-fusion records from the 80's, or even the more experimental stuff, that relied mostly on synthesizers. I think the strength in both 8 and 16 is precisely that, as with most of Prince's music at that time, they belong in the Prince bubble and have a sound palette that's so typical of him that you tend to forget when the music is from.

8 has definitely gained a well deserved cult status today. For some reason 16 hasn't, and I can't understand why. Both are amazing and I love the chilled out intimacy of 8, but 16 is incredible funk, super agressive, totally unlike anything else.

So maybe 16 is a little underrated. As mentioned above, BTW, it makes no sense to try and evaluate them as "jazz" records, whatever a "jazz record" is anyway given how diverse the genre is, and how many subgenres it comprises. They're definitely "Prince" records, admitting that Prince had become a subgenre by himself when he moved away from the Minneapolis sound he had created. I do not know any "jazz" record nor any intrumental jazz-funk project that even remotely sounds like Madhouse, which makes the whole thing pretty impressive IMHO.

I hope in the future the "hidden" part of Prince's canon, i.e. the side projects, will be rediscovered and receive some praise by the music press. I loved the Wax Poetics article on Madhouse (even though, as usual, it focused almost only on 8 and quickly mentioned 16 in passing).

I think Prince was quite fond of those records, since he was planning to rerelease them thru Edel in the 90's.

Both incarnations of 24 have their merits, too, IMHO, though each for very different reasons. I hope those get released one day. I'd also be curious to hear the 1995 nreconfiguration of 1993's 24, too, because from what I can tell the tracklist makes no sense at all by comparison to the original (the 2 additional tracks have a sound palette that's violently different from the rest), but maybe hearing it as it was would make me change my mind.

You're right about 24.

The 1988 version is pretty great. But I do feel it falls better into Leed's discography, rather than Madhouse.

The 1994 version is good, but it sounds like a plastic version of Madhouse. And Madhouse isn't Madhouse without Eric Leeds.

databank said:

bluegangsta said:

databank said:

In response to some comments above, I'd say 16 is one of the most daring, out of the box things Prince has ever done. It's true that it's dark, it's almost an instrumental extension of The Black Album. It hasn't aged that much by comparison to most of those jazz-fusion records from the 80's, or even the more experimental stuff, that relied mostly on synthesizers. I think the strength in both 8 and 16 is precisely that, as with most of Prince's music at that time, they belong in the Prince bubble and have a sound palette that's so typical of him that you tend to forget when the music is from.

8 has definitely gained a well deserved cult status today. For some reason 16 hasn't, and I can't understand why. Both are amazing and I love the chilled out intimacy of 8, but 16 is incredible funk, super agressive, totally unlike anything else.

So maybe 16 is a little underrated. As mentioned above, BTW, it makes no sense to try and evaluate them as "jazz" records, whatever a "jazz record" is anyway given how diverse the genre is, and how many subgenres it comprises. They're definitely "Prince" records, admitting that Prince had become a subgenre by himself when he moved away from the Minneapolis sound he had created. I do not know any "jazz" record nor any intrumental jazz-funk project that even remotely sounds like Madhouse, which makes the whole thing pretty impressive IMHO.

I hope in the future the "hidden" part of Prince's canon, i.e. the side projects, will be rediscovered and receive some praise by the music press. I loved the Wax Poetics article on Madhouse (even though, as usual, it focused almost only on 8 and quickly mentioned 16 in passing).

I think Prince was quite fond of those records, since he was planning to rerelease them thru Edel in the 90's.

Both incarnations of 24 have their merits, too, IMHO, though each for very different reasons. I hope those get released one day. I'd also be curious to hear the 1995 nreconfiguration of 1993's 24, too, because from what I can tell the tracklist makes no sense at all by comparison to the original (the 2 additional tracks have a sound palette that's violently different from the rest), but maybe hearing it as it was would make me change my mind.

You're right about 24.

The 1988 version is pretty great. But I do feel it falls better into Leed's discography, rather than Madhouse.

I think Leeds would disagree completely, he wasn't very fond of it. And I fail to see how its cold electronic sound it fits with the warm, organic sound of his 3 solo albums.

The 1994 version is good, but it sounds like a plastic version of Madhouse. And Madhouse isn't Madhouse without Eric Leeds.

It sounds like Prince in 1993, so yeah it's something else, but Come doesn't sound like SOTT either. And... er... Eric Leeds is on it

[Edited 10/28/16 5:27am]

I think that albums aside, there are a couple of pretty cool b-sides too. Take the non album track Six And 1/2 (the b-side to 6), it's a great wee track and the only Madhouse track to ever feature Atlanta Bliss on trumpet.

As for 24, I've always preferred the '88 one over the '93 version. I like the more electronic sound to it and the use of drum machine.

Doozer said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I always felt Levi shined brightest with Madhouse

Really? To me, Madhouse has always been the Eric Leeds Show.

TheDigitalGardener said:

I think that albums aside, there are a couple of pretty cool b-sides too. Take the non album track Six And 1/2 (the b-side to 6), it's a great wee track and the only Madhouse track to ever feature Atlanta Bliss on trumpet.

As for 24, I've always preferred the '88 one over the '93 version. I like the more electronic sound to it and the use of drum machine.

The 12" singles are fantastic, love the Extended Versions & the B-Sides!!

bluegangsta said:

bluegangsta said:

Eight is amazing. But Sixteen is really quite innovative for it's time. It takes what was done on Eight, but the production approach is more typical of late 90s hip-hop.

I call that one Babydoll House, this vibe is wonderfully Purple

steakfinger said:

For an album that took 3 days to make this is a masterpiece. I listen to it regularly. Prince's drum work is astounding on this album.

leadline said:

It's a bit repetitive for jazz but that's really the worst I can say about it. The first album was also recorded in '86 what I consider the best year of recorded music in prince's entire oeuvre.

jdcxc said:

NorthC said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

jdcxc said:

NorthC said:

jdcxc said:

Both important to rock history, but not the kind of musical invention that I was thinking of.

Think (and listen) again...

i never heard it more than once, so i can't say, i can say that some critics didn't respect Prince's jazz trips, some fans didn't either, for every fan who raves over the rainbow children, there are plenty who hate it. as far as Prince's jazz credentials, he picked up a lot harmonically but no, i don't think he was really a jazz musician, he was a pop musician who had his fingers in a lot of different paints.

jcurley said:

bluegangsta said:

Discuss.

Completely. In the sense no body truly knows it. The track Madhouse 8 is simply beautiful. It needs a broader audience beyond us geeks

"Eight" is a Brian Wilson's dream come true.
I mean what the hell is this slow-downed sample?
Who does shit like this?

Madhouse's "8", over-rated? You don't get it.
It's a session album. It takes a jazz element (the saxophone), takes a jazz approach in the recording ("Eric, just play what you want over this beat"), it's just a jam.

Except it's elegant pop ("One"), it's porno-sax ("Six"), it sounds like Charlie Chaplin meets Graham Bell ("Five"), and I feel like saying looks like a calm snapshot of the Holy Ghost ("Eight").

It's a pop album. The public would love it.
It has that kind of accessiblity of the "Köln Concert", but it doesn't pretend to be a Jazz album, it's too full of humour and fun to be taken seriously. It reminds me of Eric's quote on the Lovesexy Tour program.

I can't tell you how many times I've put on "8" during dinners and at some point someone asks me what is this great music we're hearing. That's what instrumental albums are for: music tapestry while you're eating or drinking.

To me, "8" has a humble quality, if you see what I mean. "Three" isn't supposed to be "Slow Love" pt. II, or a piece worth of "Kind Of Blue".
That's what makes it so great.

N.E.W.S., well... It sounds like Prince thought it was a good idea to listen to too much Pat Metheny.
I think Jazz-Rock sucks, that's probably why I have a problem with "16", like Prince thinking going after "Tutu" is a good idea.

"16" has a great, scary sound. No question, the production is fantastic.
But take the samples away, put away the big garage doors reverbs, well...
Not much left to eat for me.

i saw a video i think, for a song on the album, it was pretty wierd as only prince could be.

stop raving about it you guys, I already have a shitload of stuff I'm trying to listen to from the most prolific artist in pop history.

leadline said:

PeteSilas said:

jdcxc said:

PeteSilas said:

stop raving about it you guys, I already have a shitload of stuff I'm trying to listen to from the most prolific artist in pop history.

Ur a lucky man. I've been listening to P for 37 years and there is still tons of stuff I have not heard.

ya, just kidding, i just downloaded stuff from the vault, nice to hear things that you really haven't been influenced by how good or bad something is, it's completely new to me.

bonatoc said:

jcurley said:

bluegangsta said: Completely. In the sense no body truly knows it. The track Madhouse 8 is simply beautiful. It needs a broader audience beyond us geeks

"Eight" is a Brian Wilson's dream come true.
I mean what the hell is this slow-downed sample?
Who does shit like this?

Madhouse's "8", over-rated? You don't get it.
It's a session album. It takes a jazz element (the saxophone), takes a jazz approach in the recording ("Eric, just play what you want over this beat"), it's just a jam.

Except it's elegant pop ("One"), it's porno-sax ("Six"), it sounds like Charlie Chaplin meets Graham Bell ("Five"), and I feel like saying looks like a calm snapshot of the Holy Ghost ("Eight").

It's a pop album. The public would love it.
It has that kind of accessiblity of the "Köln Concert", but it doesn't pretend to be a Jazz album, it's too full of humour and fun to be taken seriously. It reminds me of Eric's quote on the Lovesexy Tour program.

I can't tell you how many times I've put on "8" during dinners and at some point someone asks me what is this great music we're hearing. That's what instrumental albums are for: music tapestry while you're eating or drinking.

To me, "8" has a humble quality, if you see what I mean. "Three" isn't supposed to be "Slow Love" pt. II, or a piece worth of "Kind Of Blue".
That's what makes it so great.

N.E.W.S., well... It sounds like Prince thought it was a good idea to listen to too much Pat Metheny.
I think Jazz-Rock sucks, that's probably why I have a problem with "16", like Prince thinking going after "Tutu" is a good idea.

"16" has a great, scary sound. No question, the production is fantastic.
But take the samples away, put away the big garage doors reverbs, well...
Not much left to eat for me.

Great remarks However I fail to see anything in 16 that would relate it to Tutu. I think we need to pay attention to the subtilte 'new directions in garage music". I don't think this could possibly be garage rock, and UK garage didn't exist yet, so what we're left with is garage house, which was popular in the 80's. If you analyse the musical structure of most of the album's track, they indeed are built like repetitive pieces of techno music (electronic music was still pretty barebone back then). If my interpretation is correct, that approach was pretty innovative at the time (trying to emulate electronica with traditional instruments and a jazz-funk sound). The album also reminds me of some of Akira Sakata's and Toshinori Kondo's 80's work, which consisted mostly of making jazz over agressive electronic music (sort of in the vein of what Laswell and Hancock were doing, mut much more efficiently), but I doubt Prince had been exposed to those confidential Japanese artists back then.

In the end 16 is just jamming brought back to its most minimalist roots: little no no melody, agressive beats, joy in repetition with no interest for variations. I think it's definitely a challenging record, one that's hard to enjoy, and that may be why I like it so much.

As for NEWS it's another dabate entirely; for another thread. I am not familiar enough to Metheny's works to see the influence: any albums I should listen to?

rob1965 said:

leadline said:

For an album that took 3 days to make this is a masterpiece. I listen to it regularly. Prince's drum work is astounding on this album.

Very true! I listen to it quite a lot as well.

I find "One" to be especially incredible about precisely Prince's performance as an instrumentist.
The drums and the bass are insane.
To think it's necessarily either the drums or the bass that was recorded first (Prince ain't no octopus)...
And what about keyboards, the piano on "One" especially, the incredible synths line on "Eight"...

Let us all praise Eric's melodic sense.
Oh, and what a fantastic flute player.
Has it been asserted who is responsible for the melodies
of "8"? I would like to think it's part Prince "dictating" to Eric, part Eric's own ideas.

Please confirm if someone else hears Atlanta Bliss in the last part of "Eight".
There's a trumpet, right?

Prince, for all the commonly bad rap he deserves about being too much of an autarcic, was feeling very free and let inspiration flow through him particularly when he was on full connection with his band membes, whatever the era.
"Exodus" wouldn't be as fantastic without the connection of the NPG Power Trio,
heck count Tommy Barbarella and Mayte in.
Exodus is a record by a group of friends, before being by a band.
It exsudes that, hence the hilarious segues and the fantastic good mood throughout.


Like with Wendy and Lisa, I think his best work is tied to his audible happiness being to do music with a band.
"Purple Rain" is a Revolution album, even if he presumably recorded "17 Days" all by himself,
one cannot underestimate the impact the Warehouse rehearsals with The Revolution
forged the entire album's spirit. And "17 Days" wouldn't be the same without the Girls Brothers.

Again, for someone hastily judged as being egotistic, he fully blossomed when he put "and Friends" next to his name. He thought it was cooler. Or better, that he had become good enough to associate his name with a band.
Maybe he was thinking he had become as good as Sly. Hence his own self-attributed " and The Family Stone".
Which is excellent, and humble me thinks.
Like, up until 1999 if the record's bad, he's the only culprit.
But with a band, you're the captain. You're the skipper.
You can't disappoint your crew, they're counting on you.
Yeah, I'm being idealistically naive...

I know I sound kinda stoopid on this one, there are plenty of incredible one-man pieces all over Prince's records. But something like "Girl O' My Dreams"? Come on! I'm so glad that an insanely great moment like that is the product of Prince loving his musicians and his musicians loving him back.

I'm glad "All My Dreams" is a "Revolution song" (again, no matter how many tracks performed by Prince himself).
Or at least with an indispensable input from its members. Prince decided so.
Same goes for "Wonderful Ass", "Crystal Ball"...
Sometimes they're small inputs, but nonetheless.
Prince considered them an indispensable spice or color, and he was spot on.
What a great taste he had, at precise moments in his life.
I mean he always kinda did, but the acmes... Vertigo.

So back on the subject, if it was just an album entirely made by Prince with The Revolution's saxophonist in three days it would already be Guinness Book material.
This album is more than that.
Maybe some of the readers will discover "Eight" post 04/21 and cry.

This is 72 hours of trance laid on tape. As if on dictation.
OK, it's not "In A Silent Way", sure.
But it's, with "Steve McQueen" by Prefab Sprout, "Mingus" by Joni, one of the best Pop/Jazz cross-overs ever to be found in Pop-capital-P music.

I love "The Dream Of The Blue Turtles", but it looks incredibly pretentious and overdone
next to the gem that is "8".
"— And WITHOUT singing a single note, Sting!", I'd like him ro hear yelping from the Afterworld†™©®.
Of course, a frightened Sting at Wembley Arena 1986 is further proof The Revolution was the "baddest band in the universe", even if just for one year.
"Yeah, fuck The Stones, what was their 1986 album again?" (Wendy — or Bobby)

I don't know if any of you are musicians and experienced studio sessions, but after six hours you have to take break, you can't hear shit clearly, that's just how the brain works. Even the top-of-the-notch engineers/session musicians need to breathe to perform at their very best.

Prince is Our Prince for a reason.
God, thank you for such a Childhood Hero/Spiritual Big Brother.
And thank U, SKipper: Paisley Park is in my heart.

[Edited 10/29/16 6:10am]