sro100 said:

If Prince was a white woman? If Prince was an ostrich? If Prince was a dolphin?

Nonsensical.

Exactely!

purplethunder3121 said:

Guitarhero said:

Freddie Mercury anybody. And to your question most none fans thought he was gay anyway.

No doubt... I've told this story before but when I first heard Prince singing "I Wanna Be Your Lover" on the radio and had no idea who he was, I thought he was Sylvester--a popular gay disco singer at the time. By the way, I loved the song, just like I did the best of Sylvester's songs.

[Edited 10/19/16 19:40pm]

[Edited 10/19/16 20:23pm]

I think the real question here is would it have affected YOUR view of Prince in a way that perhaps you would have not followed him all these years. And there is a lot to consider here. It's a blanket statement to say it wouldn't have mattered.

For a lot of us guys, Prince taught us how to treat a lady. Would that have came out the same?

And what about the female fans who thought he would be the sexiest lay ever??? Would that have been the same?

I adore Freddy Mercury, always will. But I had a completely different relationship with Prince's music.

Adorecream already said it all...

.

But, just to pile onto the discussion with some anecdotal evidence from my experience...

.

Unequivocally no, P would not have become the mainstream superstar he was had he been gay.

.

Prince could've been an even bigger commercial success if he had not been so overtly sexual in his music, performances, and over all image. Not to suggest by any means that he should've compromised his style, vision and artistry. But in truth he could've scaled even greater commercial heights if he had been willing to 'sell out' by toning down his approach (thankfully he didn't).

.

The fact is, throughout the '80s gigantic numbers of people (I'm thinking U.S.-centric, by the way) were simply disinterested in Prince for a few primary reasons: 1) he was black, 2) he was sexually provocative, 3) he was about the furthest thing from 'media friendly,' presenting a very unapproachable public persona that rubbed many the wrong way, 4) they assumed he was gay.

.

When considering all those factors, which stacked the odds astronomically against Prince becoming a mainstream star, is it monunmentally staggering that he rose to the level he did.

.

Even into the aughts I have encountered people, upon discovering I'm a Prince fan, whose first reaction was a puzzled "But you're not gay..."

.

The amount of people even today - but especially in the '80s - who simply did not have Prince on their radar because of these reasons absolutley beggars belief. It's truly a shame.

.

So if he actually had been gay, it would have had an exponentially negative impact on his overall popularity.

onefilmchic said:

It wouldn't have mattered. His music stood on it's own. His talent stood on it's own. And his genius was identifiable early on, way before he became a huge star/icon. He was also all over the place creatively that you couldn't pigeonhole him any one way. He gave the masses something to enjoy, even if they couldn't embrace every album. Even if you side eyed his choices and views, there was always something you could connect to. Don't like songs about sex? Well you can pick this song with rock, dance, spirituality, jazz, funk, experimental etc..... When you are that diverse.... that talented.... you are in your own league and criticisms just fall on deaf ears.

*

There is also the fact that Prince was in your face about everything he did. He owned everything he did without apology. You really can't criticize, shame, or shut someone down for long when he is standing in front of you going "What? Yes, my ass is hanging out in lace and I'm thrusting my guitar as if it were my penis. You don't like me simulating sex onstage? Tomorrow, I'll wear some mascara and a onesie and everyone will scream like crazy for more. And in a few decades I'll be wearing a potato sack preaching to you as I rock out." That confidence and audacity backed by genius talent is something to reckon. And he very much enjoyed pushing boundaries as he discovered himself over the years. It was cool to see him accept and embrace however he changed over the years. (even if I didn't always agree with his views)

*

I'm pansexual. I think that's the current and popular term for my sexuality and I too don't feel accepted by the LGBTQ community (apparently it's a teen fad even though I haven't been a teen in 15 years). Finding out Prince was one way or another wouldn't matter. He was one of the few people who made me realize, as a teen, that I didn't need to be accepted by anyone but myself. He could never be claimed as one of any community because he created his own and his community was a mix of so many that currently exist and only existed to him. And I think that, along with his talent, is what made him so special and somewhat impenetrable and otherworldly. He was just Prince.

Great post!

CAL3 said:

Adorecream already said it all...

.

But, just to pile onto the discussion with some anecdotal evidence from my experience...

.

Unequivocally no, P would not have become the mainstream superstar he was had he been gay.

.

Prince could've been an even bigger commercial success if he had not been so overtly sexual in his music, performances, and over all image. Not to suggest by any means that he should've compromised his style, vision and artistry. But in truth he could've scaled even greater commercial heights if he had been willing to 'sell out' by toning down his approach (thankfully he didn't).

.

The fact is, throughout the '80s gigantic numbers of people (I'm thinking U.S.-centric, by the way) were simply disinterested in Prince for a few primary reasons: 1) he was black, 2) he was sexually provocative, 3) he was about the furthest thing from 'media friendly,' presenting a very unapproachable public persona that rubbed many the wrong way, 4) they assumed he was gay.

.

When considering all those factors, which stacked the odds astronomically against Prince becoming a mainstream star, is it monunmentally staggering that he rose to the level he did.

.

Even into the aughts I have encountered people, upon discovering I'm a Prince fan, whose first reaction was a puzzled "But you're not gay..."

.

The amount of people even today - but especially in the '80s - who simply did not have Prince on their radar because of these reasons absolutley beggars belief. It's truly a shame.

.

So if he actually had been gay, it would have had an exponentially negative impact on his overall popularity.

Co- sign to this post. Yeah some people think it is easy (especially straight allies) for celebrities coming out and it won't have an impact in their careers. If it was so easy why so many celebrites are still in the closet. And also keep in mind some of these celebrities want to be global superstar and international fans a lot of them are homophobia. While in the USA they are reaching on the right track when it comes to LGBTQ issues, in other countries, gays still can get stoned or even murder for even suspecting being gay. So if Prince was gay, he wouldn't have the global success he enjoyed.

And even right here in this site, I have been reading some homophobic posts from people so I am wondering if someone from P's camp revealed he was bisexual, will they still invest in him?

You also made a good point that Prince would have been a bigger star if his music wasn't so sexual. That what I have been thinking lately of the estate might have a challenge making money because Prince wasn't easy to market because he did a lot of genres and even mixed genres in one song! His music and image especially his early and prime years were very sexual. And not marketing himself better to younger fans.

onefilmchic said:

It wouldn't have mattered. His music stood on it's own. His talent stood on it's own. And his genius was identifiable early on, way before he became a huge star/icon. He was also all over the place creatively that you couldn't pigeonhole him any one way. He gave the masses something to enjoy, even if they couldn't embrace every album. Even if you side eyed his choices and views, there was always something you could connect to. Don't like songs about sex? Well you can pick this song with rock, dance, spirituality, jazz, funk, experimental etc..... When you are that diverse.... that talented.... you are in your own league and criticisms just fall on deaf ears.

*

There is also the fact that Prince was in your face about everything he did. He owned everything he did without apology. You really can't criticize, shame, or shut someone down for long when he is standing in front of you going "What? Yes, my ass is hanging out in lace and I'm thrusting my guitar as if it were my penis. You don't like me simulating sex onstage? Tomorrow, I'll wear some mascara and a onesie and everyone will scream like crazy for more. And in a few decades I'll be wearing a potato sack preaching to you as I rock out." That confidence and audacity backed by genius talent is something to reckon. And he very much enjoyed pushing boundaries as he discovered himself over the years. It was cool to see him accept and embrace however he changed over the years. (even if I didn't always agree with his views)

*

I'm pansexual. I think that's the current and popular term for my sexuality and I too don't feel accepted by the LGBTQ community (apparently it's a teen fad even though I haven't been a teen in 15 years). Finding out Prince was one way or another wouldn't matter. He was one of the few people who made me realize, as a teen, that I didn't need to be accepted by anyone but myself. He could never be claimed as one of any community because he created his own and his community was a mix of so many that currently exist and only existed to him. And I think that, along with his talent, is what made him so special and somewhat impenetrable and otherworldly. He was just Prince.

That is why I missed Prince so much. He was the non-binary and outcast voice for us who connected to him without even trying. You are eright too that Prince made his own community and his own bubble. That how he fit in despite it could be lonely at times. He also made a song on Way Back Home that he felt like he doesn't belong here.

hollywooddove said:

I think the real question here is would it have affected YOUR view of Prince in a way that perhaps you would have not followed him all these years. And there is a lot to consider here. It's a blanket statement to say it wouldn't have mattered.

For a lot of us guys, Prince taught us how to treat a lady. Would that have came out the same?

And what about the female fans who thought he would be the sexiest lay ever??? Would that have been the same?

I adore Freddy Mercury, always will. But I had a completely different relationship with Prince's music.

Exactly. Freddy Mercury, Elton John, George Michael. I enjoy all of their music. But, not in the same way. Prince was more to me. He had a passion and his music could turn on a "gay pastor", like he sings in Peach. I don't think it would have been quite the same for me if he was gay.

Adorecream said:

Now that's on the verge of homophobic.
Or rather, thinking the audience as homophobic.

I'm sorry, but when the music is this good, it beats anyone. Purple Rain is proof: here's a short guy with a pompadour, bleeding mascara and wearing satin. When you strike with such precision the androgyny concept, it just works.

Look at MJ's success with Thriller. Now that isn't exactly Garth Brooks.
I mean he sounds AND moves totally gay to me, since day one.
That was never a problem, it was never mentioned.
I mean he can do it with whomever, it's the art that counts,
at such levels it just screams in your face (in the case of both Prince and Michael, litterally).

Prince was aiming for the same ambiguity, while being overtly sexual and racial
wheras Good Ol' Michael was going for the absolute status quo of the androgenous state.
But if you ask me, the one who got the ladies backstage was Prince,
no matter how much mascara he wore. Elvis wore a ton too.

George Michael sales didn't change after his (late) public coming out.
The Smiths heterosexual males fans still dug Morrissey.
Queen sales went up the roof, yet everyone knew what Freddie had died from.

Rock Hudson is maybe the first proof that society didn't care anymore.

I don't see any raise of homophobic shit, actually there's been a recent wave of gay marriage adoptions throughout the world.

For the record, the few albums by Grace Jones are considered classics and have been massively influential in pop. She's not a "gay themed act".

Your last options are a little on the verge of being sexually condescendent towards the LGBT.

UH HELLO!

.

I am gay, dumbass, how the fuck can I be homophobic if I am militantly and proudly gay myself. Are you gay? Probably not, so stop it.

.

And asswipe, you are on the verge of being offensive with me. Also your ideas suggesting that artists can only be gay by wearing make up and swishing around is highly offensive against gay people as well. I also love Grace Jones's music and are usually commenting on any Grace Jones thread here, I merely said that she has not really had any huge hits on the mainstream charts like Hot 100 and R and B, even in liberal Britain, she only hit #12 with Pull Up to the Bumper and Slave to the Rhythm. They got to #3 in our gay paradise - New Zealand.

[Edited 10/19/16 19:22pm]

Wow. Take it easy. I specifically said "thinking the audience is homophobic". Not you.
Don't insult me, or your intelligence.

You were the one suggesting Prince would have a success similar to Dead or Alive if he was gay. I was just reacting on that. It sounds also like Dead Or Alive had a limited success not because of their sexual orientations — I prefer to think Dead Or Alive were a one-hit wonder because they were a product of cocaine and Stock, Aitken and Waterman.

[Edited 10/21/16 13:08pm]

hollywooddove said:

I think the real question here is would it have affected YOUR view of Prince in a way that perhaps you would have not followed him all these years. And there is a lot to consider here. It's a blanket statement to say it wouldn't have mattered.

For a lot of us guys, Prince taught us how to treat a lady. Would that have came out the same?

And what about the female fans who thought he would be the sexiest lay ever??? Would that have been the same?

I adore Freddy Mercury, always will. But I had a completely different relationship with Prince's music.

Spot on.

CAL3 said:

Adorecream already said it all...

.

But, just to pile onto the discussion with some anecdotal evidence from my experience...

.

Unequivocally no, P would not have become the mainstream superstar he was had he been gay.

.

Prince could've been an even bigger commercial success if he had not been so overtly sexual in his music, performances, and over all image. Not to suggest by any means that he should've compromised his style, vision and artistry. But in truth he could've scaled even greater commercial heights if he had been willing to 'sell out' by toning down his approach (thankfully he didn't).

.

The fact is, throughout the '80s gigantic numbers of people (I'm thinking U.S.-centric, by the way) were simply disinterested in Prince for a few primary reasons: 1) he was black, 2) he was sexually provocative, 3) he was about the furthest thing from 'media friendly,' presenting a very unapproachable public persona that rubbed many the wrong way, 4) they assumed he was gay.

.

When considering all those factors, which stacked the odds astronomically against Prince becoming a mainstream star, is it monunmentally staggering that he rose to the level he did.

.

Even into the aughts I have encountered people, upon discovering I'm a Prince fan, whose first reaction was a puzzled "But you're not gay..."

.

The amount of people even today - but especially in the '80s - who simply did not have Prince on their radar because of these reasons absolutley beggars belief. It's truly a shame.

.

So if he actually had been gay, it would have had an exponentially negative impact on his overall popularity.

You're contradicting yourself: the fact is, he sold these millions of albums.
But you just said everyone assumed he was gay.
If he made the #1 single, #1 album, #1 movie whilst everyone was assuming he was gay, that's further proof that id did'nt matter at least for the east coast/west coast intelligentsias.

It may seem like a small victory, but sadly they are the people that count, the one who will later legislate, etc. Prince is in part responsible for making mainstream the idea that genders are not so easily determined.
Depeche Mode, Culture Club, Alphaville and many others played probably their part into educating rich kids to sexual differencies. They made sure they could express themselves without the society seeing it as a threat. But then came AIDS.

"Karma Chameleon" spent three weeks on the top of the Billboard. I mean, come on, Boy George for crying out loud. The kids didn't care. Those kids have become adults and most of them still don't care. Or they do, in a positive way.

If Prince had been gay, he would have become the flagship for all queer/bi/trans and other colors all over the world.

I think the fact that Madonna rallies more gays is further proof that the gay community sensed Prince wasn't really on their side. In "Uptown", he says he has no particular problem with gays, he just isn't. He says the same in "Controversy".

As someone said, Prince was speaking his mind and writing a real journal with his songs. If he had loved a man the way he loved Susannah or Vanity, we would have known. It just isn't a simple question of intercourse.

bonatoc said:

CAL3 said:

Adorecream already said it all...

.

But, just to pile onto the discussion with some anecdotal evidence from my experience...

.

Unequivocally no, P would not have become the mainstream superstar he was had he been gay.

.

Prince could've been an even bigger commercial success if he had not been so overtly sexual in his music, performances, and over all image. Not to suggest by any means that he should've compromised his style, vision and artistry. But in truth he could've scaled even greater commercial heights if he had been willing to 'sell out' by toning down his approach (thankfully he didn't).

.

The fact is, throughout the '80s gigantic numbers of people (I'm thinking U.S.-centric, by the way) were simply disinterested in Prince for a few primary reasons: 1) he was black, 2) he was sexually provocative, 3) he was about the furthest thing from 'media friendly,' presenting a very unapproachable public persona that rubbed many the wrong way, 4) they assumed he was gay.

.

When considering all those factors, which stacked the odds astronomically against Prince becoming a mainstream star, is it monunmentally staggering that he rose to the level he did.

.

Even into the aughts I have encountered people, upon discovering I'm a Prince fan, whose first reaction was a puzzled "But you're not gay..."

.

The amount of people even today - but especially in the '80s - who simply did not have Prince on their radar because of these reasons absolutley beggars belief. It's truly a shame.

.

So if he actually had been gay, it would have had an exponentially negative impact on his overall popularity.

You're contradicting yourself: the fact is, he sold these millions of albums.
But you just said everyone assumed he was gay.
If he made the #1 single, #1 album, #1 movie whilst everyone was assuming he was gay, that's further proof that id did'nt matter at least for the east coast/west coast intelligentsias.

It may seem like a small victory, but sadly they are the people that count, the one who will later legislate, etc. Prince is in part responsible for making mainstream the idea that genders are not so easily determined.
Depeche Mode, Culture Club, Alphaville and many others played probably their part into educating rich kids to sexual differencies. They made sure they could express themselves without the society seeing it as a threat. But then came AIDS.

"Karma Chameleon" spent three weeks on the top of the Billboard. I mean, come on, Boy George for crying out loud. The kids didn't care. Those kids have become adults and most of them still don't care. Or they do, in a positive way.

If Prince had been gay, he would have become the flagship for all queer/bi/trans and other colors all over the world.

I think the fact that Madonna rallies more gays is further proof that the gay community sensed Prince wasn't really on their side. In "Uptown", he says he has no particular problem with gays, he just isn't. He says the same in "Controversy".

As someone said, Prince was speaking his mind and writing a real journal with his songs. If he had loved a man the way he loved Susannah or Vanity, we would have known. It just isn't a simple question of intercourse.

.

You're contradicting yourself: the fact is, he sold these millions of albums.

.

No contradiction. Not denying record sales figures.

.

But you just said everyone assumed he was gay.

.

Read it again. I didn't say that. ("Gigantic numbers" doesn't mean everyone.)

.

Can't comment on anything else you say, because you misunderstood the basic points I made. Read it again. There were a number of factors in my reasoning. The four things I listed are in order of importance.

.

You listed a bunch of white bands - yes, it mattered to mainstream white America in those days that Prince was black and sometimes perceived as gay. Matters to many now, too, if we're being honest - but to a lesser degree. Yes, Culture Club had hits - but Boy George did not present a terribly sexually provocative image. He didn't scare parents.

.

Your approach to the topic is quite far off base. Not saying you aren't making any valid points, but they are unrelated to the post of mine you're responding to. Maybe a hypothetical "gay Prince" would've eventually become "the flagship," as you suggest, for the LGBTQ community. But it wouldn't have helped his path to superstardom.

[Edited 10/21/16 16:27pm]

[Edited 10/21/16 16:30pm]

Exactly CAL3 and Annastesia91 are right, we speak of this through hindsight that Prince was hugely successful and despite the fact a few cretins and mainstream America throught he was gay, Prince's success is sdue to his heterosexuality in many ways. The fact Prince was daring to test sexual taboos and norms with some of his more provocative songs - I mean let us not get it twisted, not everything was sex based, many of his songs dealt with other topics and his musical ability also made up for him moving beyond the one dimensional mandingo sex stereotype that so many r and b and rap performers have been cast into (R Kelly, Usher, shit hoppers etc).

.

You see there is a huge distance between being accused of being gay/homosexual and actually proving it. People back then like now will call everything gay, either meaning a like a effeminate homosexual (I make that distinction as most gays are NOT effeminate and swishy and before you all get my shit twisted, it is not a problem if you are - Pride comes in all shapes, sizes and expressions - so be gay and be proud!), or gay as in being lame. Prince was accused of being gay because of his makeup, frilly clothes and weird clothes, his small and delicate stature and his use of falsetto.

.

But in reality I don't think these people really thought he was physically gay, some did, but most would say he only looked gay and knew most of his songs in the pre 1985 period were about having sex with women and women's anatomy, so he must know his way around a woman and given another stereotype about gay men, especially effeminate gay men, was that vagina repulsed them and their knowledge of female sexuality and anatomy was minimal to none (Another wrong stereotype as most gay men in 1984 were first generation open gays and most would have been previously straight, closeted or bisexual rather than natural gays who had only ever been gay, unlike now where most gays like me have been only gay and never straight).

.

Had Prince come out and confessed he was gay, yet still singing songs about fucking the taste out of a womans mouth and jacking her off, people would not have believed it, also some right wing Christian bigots would want to "lynch that dem thur fag nixxer" and the rest of it. I mean a good example is Little Richard who hid behind sexually provocative songs about women and de Lawd to hide his own unescapable flamboyance and homosexuality. Had Richard been born in a more tolerant time and perhaps in better circumstances (And to be truthful, of white skin) he could have been an openly gay performer like Rufus Wainwright or Melissa Etheridge.

.

The other elephant we miss in the room, was Prince's obsession with dogmatic and intolerant Christian cults like 7 day adventists and jahova nonsense. These brain washing hate cults ban any form of gayness and even established churches like Catholic only condone Paedophiliac gays and closeted gayness. Even had Prince been gay, he would have prayed it away with the "luff of de lawd". Also Black contemporaries like Rick James thought that his delicate appearance and show suggested he must be gay and a gay punk (Submissive gay boy in the negro and hobo culture). I honestly think too, had Prince been gay, given the bleakness of black church culture and hyper masculinity of Black working class culture, Prince probably would have topped himself. (I would love to look further into Alfred Nelson who died in suspicious circumstances and at least showed some signs of possibly being a repressed gay man).

.

So had Prince said I am gay - His career would have died and he would have been Sylvester level success at beast, or he could have remained in the background as a session player on other peoples records, but a pop superstar never.

.

People called cats like Prince and Michael Jackson gay as they did not measure up to their own fucked up and misogynistic standards of perceived masculinity which suggested you needed a deep voice and 6 foot high stature and a 12 inch long matabombe jones to be seen as a real man, not some guy in knickers, squeaking along to a drum kit I guess. Sad, most of us would not care, but mainstream America did. Also Prince retreated from Purple Rain stardom afterwards enjoying success until the mid 1990s, but never Purple Rain levels again, MJ at least enjoyed 1st tier status until the Jordy Chandler era and gained it back afterwards until the trial. Prince after 1996 really was more a cult artist who was known more his legacy and the fact he was always touring and making more music. Album sales mostly were in the 5 and 6 figures (Except for Musicology and 3121), but Prince's fan base was loyal and mostly open minded with the God squad retreating into the background. Of course there were a few like Daphne loves Prince who told us gays we were all sinners here and the rest.

.

Bonatoc, I have to agree with you over Dead or Alive, they also had minimal talent like many artists signed on the mid 80s gay bandwagon, which signed up artists like Flock of Seagulls, Kajagoogoo and Limahl which were clear Boy George soundalikes and rip offs. Of course there were better ones like Frankie and Bronski Beat/Jimmy Somerville, but others like Belouis Sans and Sigue Sigue Sputnik were tosh and we all knew it.

Some of you are secretly hoping he was gay.

@CAL3 and @Adorecream: thanks, food for thought.

There is certainly a huge gap between the world as I would like it to be and what it truly is.

jhon00 said:

Thoughts?

.

Are you currently under medical supervision?

.

Surely you would need to be more concerned with that if Prince was a horse would he have been able to play the guitar?

.

No one cares nor will ever care!

.

Try to find something more constructive in your life to be bothered about.

.

LOCK!

Personal problem with the topic?

Adorecream said:

Exactly CAL3 and Annastesia91 are right, we speak of this through hindsight that Prince was hugely successful and despite the fact a few cretins and mainstream America throught he was gay, Prince's success is sdue to his heterosexuality in many ways. The fact Prince was daring to test sexual taboos and norms with some of his more provocative songs - I mean let us not get it twisted, not everything was sex based, many of his songs dealt with other topics and his musical ability also made up for him moving beyond the one dimensional mandingo sex stereotype that so many r and b and rap performers have been cast into (R Kelly, Usher, shit hoppers etc).

.

You see there is a huge distance between being accused of being gay/homosexual and actually proving it. People back then like now will call everything gay, either meaning a like a effeminate homosexual (I make that distinction as most gays are NOT effeminate and swishy and before you all get my shit twisted, it is not a problem if you are - Pride comes in all shapes, sizes and expressions - so be gay and be proud!), or gay as in being lame. Prince was accused of being gay because of his makeup, frilly clothes and weird clothes, his small and delicate stature and his use of falsetto.

.

But in reality I don't think these people really thought he was physically gay, some did, but most would say he only looked gay and knew most of his songs in the pre 1985 period were about having sex with women and women's anatomy, so he must know his way around a woman and given another stereotype about gay men, especially effeminate gay men, was that vagina repulsed them and their knowledge of female sexuality and anatomy was minimal to none (Another wrong stereotype as most gay men in 1984 were first generation open gays and most would have been previously straight, closeted or bisexual rather than natural gays who had only ever been gay, unlike now where most gays like me have been only gay and never straight).

.

Had Prince come out and confessed he was gay, yet still singing songs about fucking the taste out of a womans mouth and jacking her off, people would not have believed it, also some right wing Christian bigots would want to "lynch that dem thur fag nixxer" and the rest of it. I mean a good example is Little Richard who hid behind sexually provocative songs about women and de Lawd to hide his own unescapable flamboyance and homosexuality. Had Richard been born in a more tolerant time and perhaps in better circumstances (And to be truthful, of white skin) he could have been an openly gay performer like Rufus Wainwright or Melissa Etheridge.

.

The other elephant we miss in the room, was Prince's obsession with dogmatic and intolerant Christian cults like 7 day adventists and jahova nonsense. These brain washing hate cults ban any form of gayness and even established churches like Catholic only condone Paedophiliac gays and closeted gayness. Even had Prince been gay, he would have prayed it away with the "luff of de lawd". Also Black contemporaries like Rick James thought that his delicate appearance and show suggested he must be gay and a gay punk (Submissive gay boy in the negro and hobo culture). I honestly think too, had Prince been gay, given the bleakness of black church culture and hyper masculinity of Black working class culture, Prince probably would have topped himself. (I would love to look further into Alfred Nelson who died in suspicious circumstances and at least showed some signs of possibly being a repressed gay man).

.

So had Prince said I am gay - His career would have died and he would have been Sylvester level success at beast, or he could have remained in the background as a session player on other peoples records, but a pop superstar never.

.

People called cats like Prince and Michael Jackson gay as they did not measure up to their own fucked up and misogynistic standards of perceived masculinity which suggested you needed a deep voice and 6 foot high stature and a 12 inch long matabombe jones to be seen as a real man, not some guy in knickers, squeaking along to a drum kit I guess. Sad, most of us would not care, but mainstream America did. Also Prince retreated from Purple Rain stardom afterwards enjoying success until the mid 1990s, but never Purple Rain levels again, MJ at least enjoyed 1st tier status until the Jordy Chandler era and gained it back afterwards until the trial. Prince after 1996 really was more a cult artist who was known more his legacy and the fact he was always touring and making more music. Album sales mostly were in the 5 and 6 figures (Except for Musicology and 3121), but Prince's fan base was loyal and mostly open minded with the God squad retreating into the background. Of course there were a few like Daphne loves Prince who told us gays we were all sinners here and the rest.

.

Bonatoc, I have to agree with you over Dead or Alive, they also had minimal talent like many artists signed on the mid 80s gay bandwagon, which signed up artists like Flock of Seagulls, Kajagoogoo and Limahl which were clear Boy George soundalikes and rip offs. Of course there were better ones like Frankie and Bronski Beat/Jimmy Somerville, but others like Belouis Sans and Sigue Sigue Sputnik were tosh and we all knew it.

Beautifully said, Adore. And yet tragically sad.

Adorecream said:

Exactly CAL3 and Annastesia91 are right, we speak of this through hindsight that Prince was hugely successful and despite the fact a few cretins and mainstream America throught he was gay, Prince's success is sdue to his heterosexuality in many ways. The fact Prince was daring to test sexual taboos and norms with some of his more provocative songs - I mean let us not get it twisted, not everything was sex based, many of his songs dealt with other topics and his musical ability also made up for him moving beyond the one dimensional mandingo sex stereotype that so many r and b and rap performers have been cast into (R Kelly, Usher, shit hoppers etc).

.

You see there is a huge distance between being accused of being gay/homosexual and actually proving it. People back then like now will call everything gay, either meaning a like a effeminate homosexual (I make that distinction as most gays are NOT effeminate and swishy and before you all get my shit twisted, it is not a problem if you are - Pride comes in all shapes, sizes and expressions - so be gay and be proud!), or gay as in being lame. Prince was accused of being gay because of his makeup, frilly clothes and weird clothes, his small and delicate stature and his use of falsetto.

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But in reality I don't think these people really thought he was physically gay, some did, but most would say he only looked gay and knew most of his songs in the pre 1985 period were about having sex with women and women's anatomy, so he must know his way around a woman and given another stereotype about gay men, especially effeminate gay men, was that vagina repulsed them and their knowledge of female sexuality and anatomy was minimal to none (Another wrong stereotype as most gay men in 1984 were first generation open gays and most would have been previously straight, closeted or bisexual rather than natural gays who had only ever been gay, unlike now where most gays like me have been only gay and never straight).

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Had Prince come out and confessed he was gay, yet still singing songs about fucking the taste out of a womans mouth and jacking her off, people would not have believed it, also some right wing Christian bigots would want to "lynch that dem thur fag nixxer" and the rest of it. I mean a good example is Little Richard who hid behind sexually provocative songs about women and de Lawd to hide his own unescapable flamboyance and homosexuality. Had Richard been born in a more tolerant time and perhaps in better circumstances (And to be truthful, of white skin) he could have been an openly gay performer like Rufus Wainwright or Melissa Etheridge.

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The other elephant we miss in the room, was Prince's obsession with dogmatic and intolerant Christian cults like 7 day adventists and jahova nonsense. These brain washing hate cults ban any form of gayness and even established churches like Catholic only condone Paedophiliac gays and closeted gayness. Even had Prince been gay, he would have prayed it away with the "luff of de lawd". Also Black contemporaries like Rick James thought that his delicate appearance and show suggested he must be gay and a gay punk (Submissive gay boy in the negro and hobo culture). I honestly think too, had Prince been gay, given the bleakness of black church culture and hyper masculinity of Black working class culture, Prince probably would have topped himself. (I would love to look further into Alfred Nelson who died in suspicious circumstances and at least showed some signs of possibly being a repressed gay man).

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So had Prince said I am gay - His career would have died and he would have been Sylvester level success at beast, or he could have remained in the background as a session player on other peoples records, but a pop superstar never.

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People called cats like Prince and Michael Jackson gay as they did not measure up to their own fucked up and misogynistic standards of perceived masculinity which suggested you needed a deep voice and 6 foot high stature and a 12 inch long matabombe jones to be seen as a real man, not some guy in knickers, squeaking along to a drum kit I guess. Sad, most of us would not care, but mainstream America did. Also Prince retreated from Purple Rain stardom afterwards enjoying success until the mid 1990s, but never Purple Rain levels again, MJ at least enjoyed 1st tier status until the Jordy Chandler era and gained it back afterwards until the trial. Prince after 1996 really was more a cult artist who was known more his legacy and the fact he was always touring and making more music. Album sales mostly were in the 5 and 6 figures (Except for Musicology and 3121), but Prince's fan base was loyal and mostly open minded with the God squad retreating into the background. Of course there were a few like Daphne loves Prince who told us gays we were all sinners here and the rest.

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Bonatoc, I have to agree with you over Dead or Alive, they also had minimal talent like many artists signed on the mid 80s gay bandwagon, which signed up artists like Flock of Seagulls, Kajagoogoo and Limahl which were clear Boy George soundalikes and rip offs. Of course there were better ones like Frankie and Bronski Beat/Jimmy Somerville, but others like Belouis Sans and Sigue Sigue Sputnik were tosh and we all knew it.

Beautifully said, Adore. And yet tragically sad. There is "the way things are" and "the way we wish things were". You have eloquently described the former (especially for the US). It is food for deep personal thought and enlightenment.

FWIW, i was starting jr high school when PR broke big. a white middle-class suburban area in the midwest. all the parents thought prince was a hetero pervert. most of my class mates the girls and the guys, thought prince was "a total fag" or "sooo gay" and bought his records anyway. all of the high schoolers were pissed off that the closest dates for the PR tour were a 6hr drive away.

=== so i would have to say that YES he would have been just as successful had he actually been gay.

paisleyparkgirl said:

Yes. He would be just as famous. Many people assumed he was gay based on his at times flamboyant appearance/behaviour, and that didn't stop them from buying all the albums and attending the shows. Sexual preferences didn't hinder Elton John's success, nor George Michael's for that matter, and it wouldn't have for Prince either. Some people are worried about the lyric content changing. The entire Faith album from George Michael - was a huge hit - AFTER he came out. And the lyrics are ambiguous. Prince - if he were gay - might have had more ambiguous lyrics too.

If he made the same music that I loved.....yes.

ForeverPaisley said:

AnnaStesia91 said:

ForeverPaisley said:

Yes. He would be just as famous. Many people assumed he was gay based on his at times flamboyant appearance/behaviour, and that didn't stop them from buying all the albums and attending the shows. Sexual preferences didn't hinder Elton John's success, nor George Michael's for that matter, and it wouldn't have for Prince either. Some people are worried about the lyric content changing. The entire Faith album from George Michael - was a huge hit - AFTER he came out. And the lyrics are ambiguous. Prince - if he were gay - might have had more ambiguous lyrics too.

George Michael and Elton John are also white. People act like race isn't apart of the conversation when it comes to Prince but it's important. White homosexuality and Black homosexuality are two separate conversations because the two experiences are very culturally different. And I don't think the black community would've given him the same amount of support if he were gay. At one point black media were the only ones backing Prince and I don't feel that would've been the case if he were gay.

I'm not acting like race isn't part of the conversation when it comes to Prince. I've been brought up in a different country than you, or he. Not that our history is flawless when it comes to race, because it's not, but at no point growing up was there an emphasis on one's race and how it impacted someone's success etc, the way it still seems to be a topic of discussion with the United States. Prince, and Michael, for that matter, were simply top selling artists. Never titled 'top selling black artists' the way MTV did in the early 80s when they were both skyrocketing to success. Thus, to me, it would make no difference if HE was or wasn't gay - he would still be the most talented, the most prolific, and the sexiest M.F. to have graced us with their presence.

If Prince was gay he would have been just as famous, and more understood and especially more accepted in the gay community. But being the way he was, he just confused a lot of people because he didn't even try to fit into the stereotypes of society - the lingering stupid ignorant old sterotypes of "hetero guys all dress and look macho butch", and sterotypes of "gay guys all dress and look flamboyant androgynous" - but who sang "Macho Man"? A gay group. Freddie Mercury was macho butch as well, for example. Jimi Hendrix and hippie counterculture guys and films like Easy Rider challanged those old stereotypes in the '60s, '70s Parliament and glam rock guys did as well, and pimps also dressed flamboyantly, that's where Prince was coming from in his style influences.

[Edited 10/23/16 2:09am]

ForeverPaisley said:

Yes. He would be just as famous. Many people assumed he was gay based on his at times flamboyant appearance/behaviour, and that didn't stop them from buying all the albums and attending the shows. Sexual preferences didn't hinder Elton John's success, nor George Michael's for that matter, and it wouldn't have for Prince either. Some people are worried about the lyric content changing. The entire Faith album from George Michael - was a huge hit - AFTER he came out. And the lyrics are ambiguous. Prince - if he were gay - might have had more ambiguous lyrics too.

I think George Michael came out long after Faith. It was when he was set up by the cops in that Park (entrapment). It is sad because his success dwindled afterwards and he went through some personal tragedy with his partner. His record selling career never recovered, but artisticly he maintained a high level of respect. I think there is a lot of hidden in the "closet" homophobia in society and I am not sure the world has moved on as much as we would like. I think the younger generation now actually get it, but back in the 90's the world had not reached this place.

Really?

Answer is No.

He wasn't the best actor, remember?

So it wouldn't have flown quite as well, particularly given the time.

Same with pushing him into a blacker race niche or whatever. No.