sro100 said:

If Prince's drug use was initiated by physical pain, or if his drug use was initiated by anything other than physical pain?

Not at all. In my opinion, it does not damage his legacy.

How many of you think Prince never tried any drug ? He was a rockstar after all.

That does not change my opinion of him.

[Edited 9/3/16 19:16pm]

Kara said:

disch said:

No, makes no difference to me. What matters to me -- or rather, what haunts me -- is where his drug/medication/whatever-your-preferred-word-is use ended: with his death. At the end of his life, he was self-medicating to try to overcome some significant challenge, and was hiding his behavior, along with his underlying struggles, from those close to him (and the public), which speaks to shame and a fear of judgment. That, to me, is heart-wrenching and just tragic, no matter the specifics of his struggles.

I agree. Thinking of this just tears me up.

By forgiveness, I mean my capacity to forgive him for not seeking for help in time.
Everyone would have been supportive, I mean it's 2016, and almost all of us have experienced an addiction or dependance of some kind.
Drugs, sex, a toxic relationship, whatever the trauma, we all are fragile at some point.
These are crazy times. It's quite normal.

Prince was humbled by his talents, but maybe ended thinking God was protecting him from every harm.
I think that maybe, keeping on being Prince, day after day after day after day,
required on his behalf the self-persuasion/delusion of being kind of invincible.
Or at least out of the regular norm.

Maybe he was stubborn on not to be weak. He knew he had become some kind of Superhero.
He was humble, but also fiercely convinced that he couldn't stop.
That it was his mission, to be great 24/7. Maybe charities were mostly on his mind.
But the mirror's reflection, the physical pain, Denise leaving, here comes another pill,
all of a sudden Spooky Electric is back, more terrifying than ever.

Maybe he feared of being considered a fraud, just because he refused to admit he got trapped, as it can happen in every man's life.
Maybe he fought with his faith, persuaded that the spirit would ultimately triumph over the physical addiction, the unstoppable magnet.
Opiods, the worst thing there is, disguised as a medical pill.
He probably never suspected he was slowly becoming an addict. Just like MJ.
And probably lots of denial. As all addicts do at one point, no big deal Skipper, just talk about it.
Ask for help, Christopher, you dumbass.

Shame on all the U.S. citizens who let this happen (I'm talking about the whole country's opiod addictions and premature deaths),
and may the whole pharmaceutical mafia rot in hell.
Peace to the medical personnel of Moline. I wish they could have tied him to the bed,
and have a no-bullshit, long, eye-opening conversation.

I hope that we didn't lose Prince only because of its beautiful pride.
Because of the role (model) he thought he couldn't quit, not even for a while.

Well, Not really.

And here is why...all the scenarios are tragic because he suffered alone and because his possible reasons for taking drugs are sad as well.

There are three scenarios that have been proposed (with varying degrees of believability)

One--that Prince around 2010 experienced pain and possible surgery for hip problems...leading to drug usage so he could carry on performing with the same veracity. that is a great deal of pressure to put on oneself.. He may have been hard on his NPG 90's crew, but obviously he was much harder on himself. However, this theory can be challenged by the notion that he didn't look like he was ever in pain...but then again, of course if he was on pain pills, he is less likely to look like he is pain. Dangerous way of dealing with pain to say the least.

Two--less likely..he had a long term, well-regimented, well-hidden drug addiction bought on by massive social anxiety issues (shyness) and stage fright. Physiologically, this story makes no sense. But if it was an off-and-on again addiction, it may help account for his private and secretive ways even around those who worked with him. It may also explain how he was able to be so free on stage.. The argument that some have made that he had too many after shows for someone with stage fright...well, as fair as I know he wasn't nearly naked in those shows.

Three--that he took percocet and cocaine to keep his energy up for working and to keep from feeling low/empty when the show ended. That is just tragic.

All three scenarios do not indicate "recreational" use in the way that say Lindsay Lohan does it. He wasn't partying; he was coping with his issues in a very dangerous way.

no.

bonatoc said:

Not my reasoning at all. I am adamantly anti-recreational use. It has ruined the lives of several people in my family. But, my admiration of all P accomplished in his short life, and the joy it brought, and continues to bring me will not change no matter what information is leaked or officially released. I don't personally think this has anything to do with recreational use.

laurarichardson said:

sro100 said:

If Prince's drug use was initiated by physical pain, or if his drug use was initiated by anything other than physical pain?

-- Here come the pro drug people again with there narrative.

Vox, sounds like various distinctions ARE meaningful to you. I'm curious about this generally and would love to understand it better.

For example

- How would you define recreational use?

- How do you feel that physiological addiction (aka someone develops debilitating physical withdrawal symptoms if they stop taking the drug) relates to recreational use (or non-recreational use)?

- Do you feel that non-recreational drug use (perhaps use that starts as a prescription to treat physical pain) also has the potential to lead to ruined lives? Given that Prince's life was most definitely ruined, how might his story fit into these categories?

I'm really asking these questions honestly; I have my views but I appreciate the range of POVs

Vox said:

Not my reasoning at all. I am adamantly anti-recreational use. It has ruined the lives of several people in my family. But, my admiration of all P accomplished in his short life, and the joy it brought, and continues to bring me will not change no matter what information is leaked or officially released. I don't personally think this has anything to do with recreational use.

laurarichardson said:

sro100 said: -- Here come the pro drug people again with there narrative.

Nearly every month I get a letter from my medical insurance carrier asking me to change from one drug to another for some foolish reason. The real reason is money: I know that, they know I know that. So my doctor has tomake the decision to either go up against the insurance carrier or change the medication for me. He has done both. I am a "regular" citizen. It won't make the papers. Could you imagine being someone known the world over - someone with a questionable medication issue - who wants to keep the information out of the "papers?" What doctor can you go to? Add that fear/concern to running an international business in league with industry vipers (usually) , you're getting older, maybe there are constraints in terms of physical motion and writing new material ... and where is the money to run all of this coming from? You haven't been on a BIG moneymaker tour for years, and you are responsible financially for so many people ... I think the pressure on Prince was enormous from all directions. But no way do I think he was using to get high. Maybe more to control his reaction to his life.

sro100 said:

If Prince's drug use was initiated by physical pain, or if his drug use was initiated by anything other than physical pain?

No. What gets me more angry and bothers me the most are the heels.

thedance said:

pain killers are ok, lots of elder people take this....... my mother did when she was alive.. most of her life she was in deep pain... had to take medicine against it, pain..


On the other hand:

drugs are not ok with me, it leads to the road to hell, lots of bad things happens "socially" and with your health.....

So your answer is "yes" it does matter to you.

No. Not in the slightest. But it seems to matter to a lot of people, and I'm beginning to find that really disturbing, and to understand why P might have been so damned worried about people finding out.

jayseajay said:

No would have made no difference to the way I felt about him.

In my heart, I truly believe that Prince was anti-drugs. A lot of what he has said and written in his songs reflect that. This is what Prince was really about and I'm sure a lot of people who are deeply interested in him and his message will recognise that.

From the start, Prince had set high moral, spiritual and professional standards for himself and I don't think he was one to easily let people or even himself down. From what he consistently repeated I understand that Prince abhored lies, lyers, hypocrites and anything fake. Drugs to him probably represented deception, something artificial and not natural. A lie.

For that reason, I don't think Prince would have deliberately taken anything to just enter a fake or artificial state of mind. Prince's high was a spiritual one. But it is very possible that in order to maintain that high level of professionalism, and to be able to perform on stage he might have required a strong painrelief treatment that could have gradually led him to become addicted.

The possibility of him taking drugs for a recreational purpose is highly unlikely for anyone who followed him from the start as it would then go against a lot of the things he has worked so hard towards in the first place (his "message" to the world). So in this respect, yes if it was found that Prince had been using drugs consistantly all his life - which I don't think happened at all - would certainly make a big difference to me. It would mean that I have been listening to a deceiver all my life. But I really don't think this was the case here.

However, if Prince did start using drugs for recreational use at the end of his life - for whatever reason - it is different though because if he did, it would meant that he would have been in a completely different (and perhaps additional) form of pain altogether, whatever the reason: and much deeper than the physical one. A pain that would have been so strong that it would have made him abandon his own long-term cherished principles, spiritual and moral standards. The thought of this happening - a suffering so great - would be heartbreaking news for all who cared about him including myself.

I think at one point they merge.

"Recreational" is not the exact term, but suddenly it's not a painkiller anymore.
It becomes something that is required in order to smile.
Opiods, for Bob's sake. Not à la Snoop TV, something way more bleak when you miss it.

Poor Prince.

Fuck all of this. He was not just in pain.
I'm sure he hung out on a love thought despite the fear of leaving the body.
He was strong enough.

Talking about difference, I know we mentioned it before,
but the "Let's Go Crazy" lyrics are very different to me now.
They've become something magical, almost mystical.

"Dearly Beloved", and it's him from... the afterworld.
Whenever I'll listen to it.

sro100 said:

If Prince's drug use was initiated by physical pain, or if his drug use was initiated by anything other than physical pain?

No.

No, it makes no difference to me. The guy was human, just like the the rest of us; who am I to judge.

sro100 said:

-

No, it would make zero difference to me. Either way, he's gone. Either way it was probably preventable. Either way the world grieved.

-

How he died doesn't diminish his life's work one iota nor should it. I will continue to celebrate this amazing man's work and legacy because for me dwelling on his death isn't going to change anything.

Knowing what was going on would matter to me--I don't like the uncertainty.

But beyond that issue, yes, it would make a difference. Because I would need to adjust my view of Prince and my understanding of where the music was coming from (since, while it's obviously not an autobiography or journal, his music is a product of his lived experience as well as his craftsmanship and genius). No scenario is a good one, since he's dead at the end of all of them. But if there was a marked disconnect between public persona and private possibly recreational drug use going back to the 80s--yeah, you know what, that would bother me. Not because I care that muchl about the drug use itself (I think it's stupid and risky, but certainly not unusual and it doesn't keep me from loving the work of and respecting as artists and people a whole lot of folks who've used a whole lot of substances), but because of the inherent dishonesty. We didn't have a lot of "true facts" that circulated about Prince back then--an anti-drug stance was one of the few things it seemed we could connect to the private man separate from the performances. It's not like telling me he didn't actually record most of his music himself, but it does change the story. And complicates it, no matter when or how the opioids came into his life.

I tend to believe it came from something like pain, and happened as he got older. Was he an addict? Almost certainly--if you're getting illicit pills (as those obviously were), you've clearly gone beyond the normal painkilling regimen, and you've got some serious dependence issues. Was he a different kind of addict than someone who started for recreational purposes? Not in anyway that matters, in the end. But it did matter earlier, and how I'll evaluate those times and that art will be affected by that knowledge, just as my understanding of other people's art is affected by their personal lives and habits during the times of their creating it. I mean, let's consider the way that many of us have incorporated reports of the "ecstasy story" into our narratives and understanding of the what happened in late 1987 into 1988. What the Lovesexy album means is influenced by whether you accept that story, and how you interpret it. And if we ever have a clear narrative of Prince's opioid use, then that will affect my interpretation of some of the music.

But regardless of when, how, and why Prince was taking the pills, I'm probably going to remain angry about it, in contrast to the opioid use of several other artists whose work fills large amounts of my music collection. Those people pulled through and came out the other side still making music for years afterward. Nick Cave, for example, has an album coming this week. Prince, however, is dead, and there's no good reason for it, no matter why he started taking the pills. And there's no good reason he didn't stop before the night of April 20th (oh, there are lots of reasons he didn't stop, and lots of factors and people we can point to, and all those those might be true to varying degrees--but none of them are good reasons). So in that sense, the only sense that really matters, why he started doesn't make any damned difference to me at all.

CherryMoon57 said:

In my heart, I truly believe that Prince was anti-drugs. A lot of what he has said and written in his songs reflect that. This is what Prince was really about and I'm sure a lot of people who are deeply interested in him and his message will recognise that.

From the start, Prince had set high moral, spiritual and professional standards for himself and I don't think he was one to easily let people or even himself down. From what he consistently repeated I understand that Prince abhored lies, lyers, hypocrites and anything fake. Drugs to him probably represented deception, something artificial and not natural. A lie.

For that reason, I don't think Prince would have deliberately taken anything to just enter a fake or artificial state of mind. Prince's high was a spiritual one. But it is very possible that in order to maintain that high level of professionalism, and to be able to perform on stage he might have required a strong painrelief treatment that could have gradually led him to become addicted.

The possibility of him taking drugs for a recreational purpose is highly unlikely for anyone who followed him from the start as it would then go against a lot of the things he has worked so hard towards in the first place (his "message" to the world). So in this respect, yes if it was found that Prince had been using drugs consistantly all his life - which I don't think happened at all - would certainly make a big difference to me. It would mean that I have been listening to a deceiver all my life. But I really don't think this was the case here.

However, if Prince did start using drugs for recreational use at the end of his life - for whatever reason - it is different though because if he did, it would meant that he would have been in a completely different (and perhaps additional) form of pain altogether, whatever the reason: and much deeper than the physical one. A pain that would have been so strong that it would have made him abandon his own long-term cherished principles, spiritual and moral standards. The thought of this happening - a suffering so great - would be heartbreaking news for all who cared about him including myself.

I am in agreement with all of what CherryMoon57 said here.

[Edited 9/4/16 21:03pm]

Mumio said:

CherryMoon57 said:

In my heart, I truly believe that Prince was anti-drugs. A lot of what he has said and written in his songs reflect that. This is what Prince was really about and I'm sure a lot of people who are deeply interested in him and his message will recognise that.

From the start, Prince had set high moral, spiritual and professional standards for himself and I don't think he was one to easily let people or even himself down. From what he consistently repeated I understand that Prince abhored lies, lyers, hypocrites and anything fake. Drugs to him probably represented deception, something artificial and not natural. A lie.

For that reason, I don't think Prince would have deliberately taken anything to just enter a fake or artificial state of mind. Prince's high was a spiritual one. But it is very possible that in order to maintain that high level of professionalism, and to be able to perform on stage he might have required a strong painrelief treatment that could have gradually led him to become addicted.

The possibility of him taking drugs for a recreational purpose is highly unlikely for anyone who followed him from the start as it would then go against a lot of the things he has worked so hard towards in the first place (his "message" to the world). So in this respect, yes if it was found that Prince had been using drugs consistantly all his life - which I don't think happened at all - would certainly make a big difference to me. It would mean that I have been listening to a deceiver all my life. But I really don't think this was the case here.

However, if Prince did start using drugs for recreational use at the end of his life - for whatever reason - it is different though because if he did, it would meant that he would have been in a completely different (and perhaps additional) form of pain altogether, whatever the reason: and much deeper than the physical one. A pain that would have been so strong that it would have made him abandon his own long-term cherished principles, spiritual and moral standards. The thought of this happening - a suffering so great - would be heartbreaking news for all who cared about him including myself.

I am in agreement with all of what CherryMoon57 said here.

[Edited 9/4/16 21:03pm]

GimmeThat said:

jayseajay said:

No. Not in the slightest. But it seems to matter to a lot of people, and I'm beginning to find that really disturbing, and to understand why P might have been so damned worried about people finding out.

Exactly!

I agree. It's eye-opening to me that some people see drug use as such a moral issue, and that they set up all kind of black-and-white categories to justify or condemn it (e.g., physical pain-killing vs. emotional pain-killing; doctor prescribed vs. self-medicating, etc.).

We are all human, including Prince. Someone can be "anti-drug," however that's defined, and still take drugs, even illegal ones (hell, I'm "anti-junk-food," and still find myself eating the stuff almost every day). Or they can believe/do something at one time, and 30 years later, believe/do something entirely different. Life and people are confounding like that.

disch said:

GimmeThat said:

jayseajay said: Exactly!

I agree. It's eye-opening to me that some people see drug use as such a moral issue, and that they set up all kind of black-and-white categories to justify or condemn it (e.g., physical pain-killing vs. emotional pain-killing; doctor prescribed vs. self-medicating, etc.).

We are all human, including Prince. Someone can be "anti-drug," however that's defined, and still take drugs, even illegal ones (hell, I'm "anti-junk-food," and still find myself eating the stuff almost every day). Or they can believe/do something at one time, and 30 years later, believe/do something entirely different. Life and people are confounding like that.

Yeah, I've also found it really eye-opening (and not in a good way)...I don't know if it's an American vs. Non-American/European thing...but I don't come from a place where the people around me are so set on doing exactly what you say, setting up all kinds of distinctions to try and separate the 'good' from the 'bad.' I don't think recreational drug use is morally bad per se. I do think becoming addicted to drugs is bad, but not from a moral perspective, from the perspective that it often ends up wrecking your life and the lives of people aorund you...but it's not a moral failing, it's self-medication, and that deserves compassion, whatever the source. I have no problem with the fact that Prince was 'anti-drugs'...his sister was a drug-addict, and so were several people he really cared about, and it killed Denise in the end, so he had every reason to want to stay away from it (and as I wrote elsewhere, going by his relationship to music, Prince had a propensity to develop addictive behaviour, so it was very wise of him to stay away from addictive substances most of his life)....but it's not necessarily clear that that was a moral judgment, rather than just a judgment about harm. Maybe he bought the bullshit Big Pharma was peddling that you couldn't get addicted if opiates were prescribed for legitimate pain. I cannot for the life of me understand how that ever washed with anyone....but maybe it makes sense within the moral distinctions which seem to have been set up in the US. In Europe that never happened, we never had a 'war on drugs,' and no-one would ever had beleived that only 'bad' people could get addicted if they took opiates for the 'wrong' reasons. It just makes me really sad. It makes me so sad that the US is now in the grip of this epidemic, and that at the same time it has the most moralistic attitudes, and that is a terrible lethal combination of addiction and shame, and it killed our beloved boy

[Edited 9/5/16 12:13pm]

Yes, but the crucial point is : has he been lying?

Because if that's the case, it would matter to some of us.
Not in a crucial way, but I would be disappointed.

"...Abhorred liars..."?
Come on, as much as I love Prince, he was no Mother Teresa.
He set himself very high professional standards.

Moral? Well, ask Tipper Gore...
Spiritual? A consequence of the journey, the first albums are mostly
concerned with carnal desire...

I would feel like he won a world record while doped.
But that's the good thing with music, it's not a competition.
I would be concened only with his anti-drug positions.

Also, I don't think you can have two positions.
Either you're anti-drugs, and that means however strong your pain or discomfort is,
or you admit it and I would have no problems with that.

Really, if all of this could have been prevented through hip surgery,
and he didn't because of JW...

[Edited 9/5/16 15:11pm]

It would't make a difference to me. People have their issues and deal with it the best they can. I am still heartbroken over his death. Whaever his reason were why he was taking the pills, he never to the best of my knowlege promoted drug use like some other people in the industry who sing about dancing with molly and cooking crack on the stove in the kitcen with their trap queen.

I've been reading that Europe is catching up, or possibly just now being properly studied, to the U.S. in terms of prescription drug abuse. And there is most definitely a hypocritical attitude among prescription drug users. I see it from online posters who reside across the world - Me? Nope, I don't do drugs, baby and don't tolerate those who do! Drug free here...O wait, lemme get this refill on my coffee, thanks, I have to go to the local drug store to fill this prescription and I am just wiped out. What were we talking about? Oh, yes, drugs. I don't do them.

Huh? The self-awareness of some people can be a dim bulb, no question. But to answer the question, no I don't care why or how long Prince was doing drugs. It only matters because it killed him. I wish that wouldn't have happend