He was too self protective I think...pushing away people who cared about him but here is how i responded to someone who was (IMO) describing Prince a bit too harshly...

[Edited 8/27/16 8:18am]

purplerabbithole said:

Morningstarlet said:

purplerabbithole said:

He was too self protective I think...pushing away people who cared about him but here is how i responded to someone who was (IMO) describing Prince a bit too harshly...

Damn, that's harsh. I would not say his life was "empty". I would say it was troubled.

Have you ever considered that Prince died alone because he spent too much time attempting to be the perfect musican and rock star everyone (including himself) wanted him to be. The musical world seems to have no place of relevancy for musicans over 40, it seems. So of course he surrounded himself with younger people and musicans. Also, do you really think those comments from Prince to Jill were intended as a marriage proposal or something . He is talking like a mentor. The dude liked pretty women around him--obviously (and the pretty assistant is kind of an annoying concept--I'll give you that). But he seemed to be much more paternal than anything else. I think he enjoyed young people's company, but I don't think bedding them was necessarily what he had in mind.

Also, there are lots of beautiful aspiring so and so's in that world, but the women Prince surrounded himself with were often talented (Andy, Tamar) , charismatic, or had at least half a brain on their shoulders. Are there smarter more mature woman in the world?..Sure. But most of them don't keep Prince's hours and have careers and families to attend to? Young women don't have those attachments yet.

You guys also forget women like Liv, Shelby, Chaka, that one middle-aged white background singer (whose name escapes me), Candy Dulfer, Mavis, Rhonda ...Women he hired (or worked with) and seemed to like and respect. I am sorry--LIv and Shelby seem really really cool but neither one of them are eye candy.

As for Mayte and Manuela, I think it was more complicated than Prince just being a svengali thinking with his dick. BOth women probably had their own charms and were willing to fit into that lifestyle. In other words, environment is as much of a factor in his choices of mates as anything else. Did he mold them-- probably to keep them close and because he had some control issues, sure.. but we can not presume to know what their intimate conversations were like and how much influence they may have had on him. Mayte said he became a vegetarian because of her. I once saw Mayte do a massive crowd dive off the stage (and she was not caught). She got up, seemed a bit pissed and was shouting something to security. I don't think she was a weak-willed as some make her out to be.

Another thing to consider is that although I do believe Prince was a lonely man, he did have people who allowed him to call them at 4:30 in the morning (Tamron Hall, Neal whatshis name, etc) and he did have some intelligent male friends (Tavis, Van Jones). His loneliness was partly his own fault but I do think people did like the man for more than just his fame and money.

And I do believe that people could easily be duped by prince into believing he was not a drug addict....up to about a year ago, that is.. (with the exception of his inner inner circle). Prince compartimentalized his life. He was eccentric, at times aloof, coy, always on the run, fast working, mysteries, and jokingly mischievous...some odd behavior (that might have been a result of pain pill usage) might have been mistakingly attributed to that. Looking at the last moments and performances of his, one could easily convince themselves that prince had an eating disorder and was working too hard. And I bet you a billion dollars, people told him to eat more and get more sleep. I am not talking about his inner circle/assistants when I say this of course. They knew he was popping pills--how could they have not. the rest I am not so sure.

[Edited 8/27/16 8:18am]

That is quite a profound reflection. It is not judgmental and validates different views. Thank you for sharing this.

I think he was compassionate in his last article about Prince after he died. He said he loved him. You probably are referring to the crap he said before Prince died (which was not hateful but not exactly compassionate either) . that was dumb and distasteful but he didn't mean anything by it and probably wanted C.J. to not think he was a synchophant or something.

anangellooksdown said:

Morningstarlet said:

I loved the article that Neal wrote after Prince passed away. Apparently Prince would call him in the middle of the night occasionally. I was struck by Neal's comment that Prince would call sometimes so lonely and depressed he could barely speak. I've always thought that deep down Prince was a very lonely man. [Edited 8/27/16 8:26am]

That Neal guy wasn't very nice to Prince from what I remember reading. I didn't even get the sense he was nice about Prince after Prince passed. There just didn't seem to be a lot of compassion there. Some guilt and regret, but not much compassion.

[Edited 8/27/16 8:56am]

purplerabbithole said:

anangellooksdown said:

Last night I was thinking about the magnimity - the enormous totality of all that Prince built and owned (this ONE person, from scratch, all by himself) - and had to run and manage and be responsible for. It was a lot to protect. And anyone who's a human on this earth (especially in recent years) knows, that some of the nicest people in the world will take advantage of you if you don't have good boundaries. I don't blame him one bit for being as private and self-protective - and protective of his empire and music - as he was. He was a smart man to do so. Being protective gave him freedom to have peace, grow, and invite good people into his life who were trustworthy. Damaris Lewis comes to mind. She was a true friend to him and has remained so. There were others too. Even some of the young 'uns were wise and solid. This is one of the best example I've taken from Prince's life. No doubt as has been the trend since the latest news, there will be opposing opinions. No, he wasn't perfect. But i doubt this fact about him can be refuted. It must've been a lot of pressure for him sometimes.

I've thought a lot about this too. What he accomplished is nothing short of amazing. To be so sure of himself at such a young age is sooo rare, as well as his self esteem and determination.

.

I wouldn't have wanted his life. I can not fathom what it must be like for famous ppl to have to fear for their safety, being mauled by a crowd, or assassinated like John L. Or to have to wonder what everyone's intentions are. To not be able to really trust someone. For the most part - us Minnesotans left him alone, but could he really just be out and about and go boating, to the zoo, shop at MOA, play black jack at a casino, etc? No.

.

Could he just take a break, not perform or create new music? No.

I don't think he could quit if he wanted to. It came so easy to him. Plus he probably worried he'd be a "has been", or like other older bands that just perform their hits and don't create new music, and eventually play only at state fairs and casinos. (I know that wouldn't be the case with P though)

.

I wonder if he were asked/given the choice knowing the outcome if he could do it all over again, if he would have preferred not being a mega star, just staying in the background, writing for other artists, etc.

.

He wouldn't have all the enormous pressures, that had to weigh on him non stop.

.

He could have stayed under the radar and lived a somewhat normal life.

.

What helps me though...my gut says he wouldn't have had it any other way.

.

I think he loved the limelight, the fame, and for the most part; fulfilled his goal.

.

He fit A LOT into his 57 years. We should all be so lucky.

Morningstarlet said:

I never said you didnt mean what you said. I just don't understand how the post-death article from this guy was anything less than compassionate. I found it very moving.

anangellooksdown said:

purplerabbithole said:

I think he was compassionate in his last article about Prince after he died. He said he loved him. You probably are referring to the crap he said before Prince died (which was not hateful but not exactly compassionate either) . that was dumb and distasteful but he didn't mean anything by it and probably wanted C.J. to not think he was a synchophant or something.

[Edited 8/27/16 8:56am]

I always thought his swagger/self confidence was an act of defiance fueled by musical talent. He was a short (and he wasn't in denial about this) attractive but slightly unusual looking man from a place not known as a musical mecca (until Prince, that is) and from a broken home with little parental encouragement. He also didn't seem particularly popular or noticed in school (maybe by girls who liked cute little artistic boys). He wasn't supposed to be a star, so he had no other choice but to strive to succeed. What was the alternative? He said in that Arseno show episode that he looked through the classifieds as a kid and couldn't find one thing he wanted to do. And being told at very young age that you are musically gifted, well, what else was he going to do? He was different and special. Not better or worse as a human being--just special. Music was Prince's salvation and his cross to bear.

bigtimefan said:

anangellooksdown said:

Last night I was thinking about the magnimity - the enormous totality of all that Prince built and owned (this ONE person, from scratch, all by himself) - and had to run and manage and be responsible for. It was a lot to protect. And anyone who's a human on this earth (especially in recent years) knows, that some of the nicest people in the world will take advantage of you if you don't have good boundaries. I don't blame him one bit for being as private and self-protective - and protective of his empire and music - as he was. He was a smart man to do so. Being protective gave him freedom to have peace, grow, and invite good people into his life who were trustworthy. Damaris Lewis comes to mind. She was a true friend to him and has remained so. There were others too. Even some of the young 'uns were wise and solid. This is one of the best example I've taken from Prince's life. No doubt as has been the trend since the latest news, there will be opposing opinions. No, he wasn't perfect. But i doubt this fact about him can be refuted. It must've been a lot of pressure for him sometimes.

I've thought a lot about this too. What he accomplished is nothing short of amazing. To be so sure of himself at such a young age is sooo rare, as well as his self esteem and determination.

.

I wouldn't have wanted his life. I can not fathom what it must be like for famous ppl to have to fear for their safety, being mauled by a crowd, or assassinated like John L. Or to have to wonder what everyone's intentions are. To not be able to really trust someone. For the most part - us Minnesotans left him alone, but could he really just be out and about and go boating, to the zoo, shop at MOA, play black jack at a casino, etc? No.

.

Could he just take a break, not perform or create new music? No.

I don't think he could quit if he wanted to. It came so easy to him. Plus he probably worried he'd be a "has been", or like other older bands that just perform their hits and don't create new music, and eventually play only at state fairs and casinos. (I know that wouldn't be the case with P though)

.

I wonder if he were asked/given the choice knowing the outcome if he could do it all over again, if he would have preferred not being a mega star, just staying in the background, writing for other artists, etc.

.

He wouldn't have all the enormous pressures, that had to weigh on him non stop.

.

He could have stayed under the radar and lived a somewhat normal life.

.

What helps me though...my gut says he wouldn't have had it any other way.

.

I think he loved the limelight, the fame, and for the most part; fulfilled his goal.

.

He fit A LOT into his 57 years. We should all be so lucky.

[Edited 8/27/16 13:46pm]

Morningstarlet said:

I've thought a lot about this too. What he accomplished is nothing short of amazing. To be so sure of himself at such a young age is sooo rare, as well as his self esteem and determination.

This part about him amazes me too. Many of us that grew up in unstable homes struggle with low self esteem, yet he really had an enormous amount of self confidence.

He was fortunate to have a supportive place to go (Andre's) where he lived with people who had similar interests, encouraged him and believed in him. He always had an exceptional work ethic and he must have known he was good - but it sounds as though he was a little shy initially, especially about singing in public. There were a lot of people who saw how great he was and helped him forward his career but it must have been crazy when it all took off.

I don't understand the people who critisize his poor business sense. With a product of himself and all the ups and downs in the music business he still managed to keep the show on the road for nearly 40 years and build his empire despite being a musician not a business man. There are not many people who do that well.

His personal relationships were different. With his family background and all the complications of having so much fame and wealth it is not suprising he never did have lasting relationships. Most of them still love him though despite his behaviour. I remember an interview from the 80's where he seemed proud of his dad having 'lots of girlfriends'. That gave me a good idea of his values and how his personal life would play out in the future - and so it was. He did say something along the lines of he loved his life though and I am sure it was a fantastic life for him to lead.

Morningstarlet said:

He was fortunate to have a supportive place to go (Andre's) where he lived with people who had similar interests, encouraged him and believed in him. He always had an exceptional work ethic and he must have known he was good - but it sounds as though he was a little shy initially, especially about singing in public. There were a lot of people who saw how great he was and helped him forward his career but it must have been crazy when it all took off.

That's true, but his confidence seemed to go beyond musical talent too. Here's a short, small kid playing on a basketball team ... and he's being taunted. Yet he apparently did well. That took balls of brass in my opinion.

Yes, he was good at that too - and table tennis. He did say he was very competative. I think he did believe in himself but also worked damned hard until he knew he was rocking it. I wonder if he was so hard on himself because he was a little insecure and needed things to go perfectly.

Morningstarlet said:

I've thought a lot about this too. What he accomplished is nothing short of amazing. To be so sure of himself at such a young age is sooo rare, as well as his self esteem and determination.

This part about him amazes me too. Many of us that grew up in unstable homes struggle with low self esteem, yet he really had an enormous amount of self confidence.

I don't think he had a lot of self-confidence in the beginning, but he did have determination. He was determined that he was going to make it and make it his own way. You don't always have to have self-confidence to do that. Also, I think in some instances, if you have a talent or something you are passionate about, you can have confidence in that area but be very self-conscious and have low self-esteem in other areas. Put me in front of a crowd talking about social work or case management and I'm right there, knowing my stuff and speaking out, otherwise I'm withdrawn, quiet, and socially awkward. My life was much more unstable, but I've gone on to get a Master's degree and hold a high position at work. I've achieved more than anyone else in my family, yet I went through the most. For some of us, I think, you give us adversity and it wakes us up, makes us stronger in some ways, and causes us to be determined to overcome it.

[Edited 8/27/16 14:38pm]

purplerabbithole said:

I never said you didnt mean what you said. I just don't understand how the post-death article from this guy was anything less than compassionate. I found it very moving.

anangellooksdown said:

purplerabbithole said:

Yup. Everything Neal has every written about Prince has been extremely perceptive and respectful (and Prince acknowledged this himself.) The one exception is the extremely crass, and given the timing, unbelievably unfortunate joke he made the week before P passed. In Neal's defense, I will say, it was a joke he made because in the context it was an totally obvious joke to make ('I am holding onto these things from Prince b/c they wll be worth more when he is dead')...he modified immediately at the time, realizing it was crass, ('I wish you a long life Prince') and following P's passing a few days later, he was fucking mortified. Neal is okay. He said something because it was the obvious and yet crass thing to say, and I do not think for a second he has anything but love and respect for Prince. The two profiles he wrote are still among the best profiles ever written on P, and P trusted him, and P wasn't a fool about who was an ass and who wasn't.

malbena said:

purplerabbithole said:

anangellooksdown said:

Last night I was thinking about the magnimity - the enormous totality of all that Prince built and owned (this ONE person, from scratch, all by himself) - and had to run and manage and be responsible for. It was a lot to protect. And anyone who's a human on this earth (especially in recent years) knows, that some of the nicest people in the world will take advantage of you if you don't have good boundaries. I don't blame him one bit for being as private and self-protective - and protective of his empire and music - as he was. He was a smart man to do so. Being protective gave him freedom to have peace, grow, and invite good people into his life who were trustworthy. Damaris Lewis comes to mind. She was a true friend to him and has remained so. There were others too. Even some of the young 'uns were wise and solid. This is one of the best example I've taken from Prince's life. No doubt as has been the trend since the latest news, there will be opposing opinions. No, he wasn't perfect. But i doubt this fact about him can be refuted. It must've been a lot of pressure for him sometimes.

He didn't do it ALL by himself.

Morningstarlet said:

purplerabbithole said:

He was too self protective I think...pushing away people who cared about him but here is how i responded to someone who was (IMO) describing Prince a bit too harshly...

[Edited 8/27/16 8:18am]

I loved the article that Neal wrote after Prince passed away. Apparently Prince would call him in the middle of the night occasionally. I was struck by Neal's comment that Prince would call sometimes so lonely and depressed he could barely speak. I've always thought that deep down Prince was a very lonely man. [Edited 8/27/16 8:26am]

Morningstarlet, I agree with you. Based on the fact that he was married twice, did not want the divorce from Mani, as well as the content of his music throughout his career expressing a desire for a long-term relationship (as well as fear of losing the one whom he loves), e.g. My Love Is Forever, Forever in My Life, Adore, Diamonds and Pearls, Sister/Lover/Friend/Mother/Wife, Soul Sanctuary, The One, She Loves Me 4 Me, Future Baby Mama, Te Amo Corazon, Call My Name, I think that Prince really did desire to have a long-term relationship with one woman. Earlier in his his 20s and early 30s, being monogamous seems to have been a challenge for him. But as he matured, he appeared to settle down. In the 1996 interview with Oprah, he clearly expressed a desire to stay married and have a family with Mayte. In other words, he desired to have the stable family life as an adult that he did not have as a child.

--

I think it is fair to ask if Prince was also dealing with a lot of emotional pain related to trauma in his life as well as the fact that his dreams for a long-term marriage and family never materialized.

* He dealt with abandonment issues in childhood.

* His son died as an infant, he and Mayte suffered a miscarriage, and Prince never had any other children.

* He went through the divorce with Mani in 2006 that he did not want.

* His parents died in the early 2000s.

* A couple of his siblings died, I think in the last 10 years.

* His contemporaries MJ and Whitney died in the last 7 years.

* Denise (Vanity) died in 2016.

I hesitate to bring up this subject because it is so touchy, but I think that it did have an impact on him even later in life. Prince clearly wanted children, and I think that if a person wants children, that desire doesn't go away until it is satisfied. Prince was SO looking forward to having a family in his late 30s, but because he and Mayte lost 2 babies, and he and Mani never had children, here he was in his 50s, having this huge musical legacy and millions of fans, but no children. I think people don't want to talk about this because it is such a sad subject, but it just makes so much sense that the pain of losing a child still had an impact on him into his late 50s.

--

I know a couple of people who lost infants. A good family friend lost her infant son about 20-25 years ago to SIDS. It is still painful for her to talk about to this day. However, she has 4 other children (2 who are older than the son who died and 2 who are younger).

--

My grandmother (God rest her soul) lost her only biological child, Margaret, when Margaret was a newborn. My gma was born in the early 20s and her daughter Margaret was born in the late 1930s/early 1940s. I believe that she was born premature and in those days, being a premie was often a death sentence. My gma died in 2006, when she was 83. Till the end of her life, she still carried her daughter's social security card in her wallet. My grandma and grandpa adopted my mother and my sister and I, her two grandchildren, brought her great joy. But she never forgot her daughter Margaret.

--

I share these stories because I don't think that the pain of losing a child just goes away. Even with grief counseling, it stays with the person. There is even a scientific research study called Long-Term Effects of the Death of a Child on Parents’ Adjustment in Midlife (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841012/). The study's abstract says the following: "The death of a child is a traumatic event that can have long-term effects on the lives of parents. This study examined bereaved parents of deceased children (infancy to age 34) and comparison parents with similar backgrounds (n = 428 per group) identified in the Wisconsin Longitudinal Study. An average of 18.05 years following the death, when parents were age 53, bereaved parents reported more depressive symptoms, poorer well-being, and more health problems and were more likely to have experienced a depressive episode and marital disruption than were comparison parents. Recovery from grief was associated with having a sense of life purpose and having additional children but was unrelated to the cause of death or the amount of time since the death."

--

Prince accomplished so much in his life in terms of his career. He touched the lives of millions of fans, won 7 Grammy awards, earned lifetime achievement awards including an induction into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, made tens of millions of dollars, and travelled the world. After being ridiculed in the 1990s for taking on the music industry, this man performed arguably the greatest Super Bowl halftime show ever. By the late 2000s and 2010s, Prince had had the widespread respect of those in the music industry and the public in general for his body of work and musical accomplishments.

--

Prince was also able to donate hundreds of thousands of dollars to causes that were important to him. He mentored many younger artists.

--

The one area of his life where his dreams never materialized was the family domain. I think that just like the physical pain caught up with Prince, so did the emotional pain from all of the traumas he experienced, especially the loss of Ahmir. And he very well may have been experiencing the emotional pain of loneliness because he was not able to remain married/in a long-term stable romantic relationship.

sunset3121 said:

Morningstarlet said:

This part about him amazes me too. Many of us that grew up in unstable homes struggle with low self esteem, yet he really had an enormous amount of self confidence.

He was fortunate to have a supportive place to go (Andre's) where he lived with people who had similar interests, encouraged him and believed in him. He always had an exceptional work ethic and he must have known he was good - but it sounds as though he was a little shy initially, especially about singing in public. There were a lot of people who saw how great he was and helped him forward his career but it must have been crazy when it all took off.

I don't understand the people who critisize his poor business sense. With a product of himself and all the ups and downs in the music business he still managed to keep the show on the road for nearly 40 years and build his empire despite being a musician not a business man. There are not many people who do that well.

His personal relationships were different. With his family background and all the complications of having so much fame and wealth it is not suprising he never did have lasting relationships. Most of them still love him though despite his behaviour. I remember an interview from the 80's where he seemed proud of his dad having 'lots of girlfriends'. That gave me a good idea of his values and how his personal life would play out in the future - and so it was. He did say something along the lines of he loved his life though and I am sure it was a fantastic life for him to lead.

Prince clearly expressed that he desired a long-term marriage and a family (1996 interview with Oprah, Emancipation album). However, the marriages and his own family were short-lived. It's the one area of his life in which he really struggled. I believe that if someone wants a family, namely children, this desire does not go away unless it is satisfied. It was never satisfied for Prince. So it would not surprise me if the lack of "success" in the family domain caused him emotional pain.

Not only being famous made Prince cautious and stand-offish but we often forget how he grew up and came from a broken home.

Morningstarlet said:

I've thought a lot about this too. What he accomplished is nothing short of amazing. To be so sure of himself at such a young age is sooo rare, as well as his self esteem and determination.

This part about him amazes me too. Many of us that grew up in unstable homes struggle with low self esteem, yet he really had an enormous amount of self confidence.

How do we know for sure he had an enormous amount of confidence? We never knew what was going on inside his head.. I'd bet he had problems with self-confidence but the music and talent hid it very well.

Prince was self sabatoging.

rap said:

anangellooksdown said:

Last night I was thinking about the magnimity - the enormous totality of all that Prince built and owned (this ONE person, from scratch, all by himself) - and had to run and manage and be responsible for. It was a lot to protect. And anyone who's a human on this earth (especially in recent years) knows, that some of the nicest people in the world will take advantage of you if you don't have good boundaries. I don't blame him one bit for being as private and self-protective - and protective of his empire and music - as he was. He was a smart man to do so. Being protective gave him freedom to have peace, grow, and invite good people into his life who were trustworthy. Damaris Lewis comes to mind. She was a true friend to him and has remained so. There were others too. Even some of the young 'uns were wise and solid. This is one of the best example I've taken from Prince's life. No doubt as has been the trend since the latest news, there will be opposing opinions. No, he wasn't perfect. But i doubt this fact about him can be refuted. It must've been a lot of pressure for him sometimes.

He didn't do it ALL by himself.

I was going to say precisely that.

Another delusional thread, confusing the man with the public persona.

As far as I know, he wasn't a one-man-band on stage.




The only times he sounded truly happy, witty and playful
on tape ("When Doves Scream", the pizza-hamburgers-root beer-pussy "D.M.S.R" rehearsal, "Data Bank", etc.)
was when he was playing with his band (in other words, surrounded by friends).

If it wasn't for Chris Moon or Owen Husney, we wouldn't know his very existence.
Let's keep things real.

[Edited 8/27/16 21:33pm]

purplerabbithole said:

benni said:

Morningstarlet said:

This part about him amazes me too. Many of us that grew up in unstable homes struggle with low self esteem, yet he really had an enormous amount of self confidence.

I don't think he had a lot of self-confidence in the beginning, but he did have determination. He was determined that he was going to make it and make it his own way. You don't always have to have self-confidence to do that. Also, I think in some instances, if you have a talent or something you are passionate about, you can have confidence in that area but be very self-conscious and have low self-esteem in other areas. Put me in front of a crowd talking about social work or case management and I'm right there, knowing my stuff and speaking out, otherwise I'm withdrawn, quiet, and socially awkward. My life was much more unstable, but I've gone on to get a Master's degree and hold a high position at work. I've achieved more than anyone else in my family, yet I went through the most. For some of us, I think, you give us adversity and it wakes us up, makes us stronger in some ways, and causes us to be determined to overcome it.

[Edited 8/27/16 14:38pm]

Beautifuly said.