BartVanHemelen said:

PeteSilas said:

Prince was young when he was signed, so damned young and so talented so he never got trapped in the kinds of contracts which end musicians career, it used to be, an act was signed to a three record deal, if the first record flopped, the second album would never be financed and they would never get out of the contract, therefore they would be done in the businness, just horrible and dirty. Prince avoided that fate because he was brilliant

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Utter BS. Prince used the budget for THREE albums on his first, and Warners just let it slide. Yeah, those evil bastards. And then P made a more commercial record for a "normal" budget, and then he got them to release a bunch of demos as a record that would be mostly unplayable on radio. Gosh, such evil slavemasters.

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Oh, and then there was the time when he wanted to release music through side projects like The Time and Sheila E etc. and WBR happily obliged -- those evil slave masters. And then they financed his movie. And later on they allowed him to shop a concert movie around.

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WBR treated Prince like royalty.

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Oh, and WBR administiring Prince's publishing, something Prince bitched about in the 1990s? That was something PRINCE DEMANDED back when he signed his first deal with WBR.

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but the true colors of the business eventually showed itself to him.

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Yeah, let's pretend Prince wasn't keeping artists hostage himself back in the early-/mid-1990s. And 25+ years later Prince never managed to come up with a viable alternative, and was selling records through rinky-dink fan operated online record stores because nobody was willing to sign a distribution deal with him.

no, they didn't "let it slide" are you kidding? they wouldn't just let that slide. Prince has said before that he intentionally tried to make a pop record on his second album to get out of the hole. The second album sold just short of a mill at the time and went a long ways to earning back some money and some faith. Then, he turns around and puts out dirty mind, Dez says that WB actually offerered him his contract back after that. Prince, in those days was right even when he was wrong (something he used to tell new hires) the dirty mind gamble was something that didn't pay off immediately but it did free him up to be the Prince the world came to know and it won over the critics who would measure every following album by DM.

Yes, you are quite right about how he treated artists under him, my theory for that, and it's no excuse, is that we do what was done to us. You ever see a guy get promoted to supervisor at a job? he used to be one of the guys but as soon as he gets a step up, he starts treating everyone else how he was treated all along. Just the way it is, some of it, I don't even think we can help.

BartVanHemelen said:

PeteSilas said:

everyone thought he'd lost his mind at the time. I remember a nationally known critic/author who said "he's so far gone he's never coming back" that was the sentiment. The deal warner brothers conned him into, yes conned

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Oh please. Prince was a grown-up, and acted against the advice of his entourage. Dude wanted "the biggest record deal ever", and he was still obsessing about that shit in the late 2000s.

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Oh great, more made-up nonsense.

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I'd never heard that for any artist, as bad as Little Richard and all the rest have been getting fucked since the beginning of rock and roll, live performance was the one sure way they could make a living without the shenanigans of the record company.

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Utter nonsense. Who do you think funds those major tours?

is that made up nonsense? I don't know if it is or not, you probably know a lot more about the ins and outs of the deal Prince made than I do. My stance is as an artist and a fighter who saw lots of other fighters especially, and artists just get shanghaied by the weak men who run things. My personal reaction was to just not even take the bait, not get anywhere and not accomplish anything. That was really the only way I knew how to deal with it but all I can tell you, and this goes way beyond a Prince, it goes down to the way our society is rung, is that there is always some mystical someone "up there" who has the power of life and death over each and every one of us, whether it's a teacher, a boss, a bank, I'm just saying it's oppressive by it's very nature and it makes us miserable. Why do you think there are so many angry people running the streets in this country? Why do you think we lead the world in all kinds of drug use? We ain't happy and in my opinion, we ain't happy because we think that by selling out our souls for all this material shit is the only choice and the best thing to do. Society is brainwashed. Personally, I opted out, I've lost friends because they think i'm a bum but I don't really give a fuck because I know me a lot better than they do, and I know that sometimes people hate me because I refuse to live like that, yes, hate. So, in many respects I understand Prince and could see how he evolved, he really needed better people around him who would help shit not get so bungled because one man is only one man no matter how hard working, you can't hire you're homies to take on responsibility just because they are your homies. That was his big mistake, I do not think a lot of his unpaid bills and disorganization was just sheer irresponsibility, I think he just was so obsessed with music that he couldn't keep up with the other crap, hence, he did need better people on his team.

Trying to argue with Bart is pointless, but I do think you have some good things to say, Pete.

BartVanHemelen said:

Do you really think the record company was paying for all that shit out of their kindheartedness? It's the music BUSINESS.

PeteSilas said:

That was his big mistake, I do not think a lot of his unpaid bills and disorganization was just sheer irresponsibility, I think he just was so obsessed with music that he couldn't keep up with the other crap, hence, he did need better people on his team.

prince had,at one time or another, many competant, knowledgable people in keys posistions on his team and beginning in 89/90 he fired all but a few. the ones that were left were canned by duane circa 94/95.

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prince deliberatley hired or promoted "homies" as you call them so that he could be in complete control in spite of the fact that he was clearly not capable of calling all those shots. he needed a good team - yes. but he would not tolerate people telling him what was good or better for him.

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naturally chaos ensued and continues now, even in his death. he had a nack for perpetual self-undoing that many control-freak types have. they cannot trust situations that have balance and flow for too long, so they fuck-it up,one way or another. random firings,wastful spending habits, dead-end investment schemes. sound familiar? some people get self-destructive with chemical dependacies. it always ends sadness and great frustration over how things could've been. very much the james brown model of business.

wavesofbliss said:

PeteSilas said:

prince had,at one time or another, many competant, knowledgable people in keys posistions on his team and beginning in 89/90 he fired all but a few. the ones that were left were canned by duane circa 94/95.

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prince deliberatley hired or promoted "homies" as you call them so that he could be in complete control in spite of the fact that he was clearly not capable of calling all those shots. he needed a good team - yes. but he would not tolerate people telling him what was good or better for him.

---

naturally chaos ensued and continues now, even in his death. he had a nack for perpetual self-undoing that many control-freak types have. they cannot trust situations that have balance and flow for too long, so they fuck-it up,one way or another. random firings,wastful spending habits, dead-end investment schemes. sound familiar? some people get self-destructive with chemical dependacies. it always ends sadness and great frustration over how things could've been. very much the james brown model of business.

you could be right, but I really can't understand how unpaid bills is part of cheapness or nefariousness. To me, it sounds like ME, I don't give a shit about money and just want people to leave me alone so college loans have to wait, it's not that i am evil and vindictive or anything else, i'm not going to kill myself over a million things I can't control. Now, Prince could have at least hired better people to make sure people didn't report him to the better business bureau and could have paid bills without having him oversee every step AND leaving him free to do his work. Worrying about money is the biggest distraction for any of us artists, Prince managed to be the most prolific inspite of it, when I barely get practice time and my life is simple, i keep people at bay, don't mess with women because i've seen too many of my artist friends get their whole lives ruined because they had to support a family, not that that's bad, it just ain't for me. Now, Prince's case, I'm trying to look at it how I would see it, and I would not want to spend any time worrying about a lot of that crap, I'd rather practice and be left alone, but in this world we live in, everything has to bee overcomplex.

BartVanHemelen said:

PeteSilas said:

Prince was young when he was signed, so damned young and so talented so he never got trapped in the kinds of contracts which end musicians career, it used to be, an act was signed to a three record deal, if the first record flopped, the second album would never be financed and they would never get out of the contract, therefore they would be done in the businness, just horrible and dirty. Prince avoided that fate because he was brilliant

.

Utter BS. Prince used the budget for THREE albums on his first, and Warners just let it slide. Yeah, those evil bastards. And then P made a more commercial record for a "normal" budget, and then he got them to release a bunch of demos as a record that would be mostly unplayable on radio. Gosh, such evil slavemasters.

.

Oh, and then there was the time when he wanted to release music through side projects like The Time and Sheila E etc. and WBR happily obliged -- those evil slave masters. And then they financed his movie. And later on they allowed him to shop a concert movie around.

.

WBR treated Prince like royalty.

.

Oh, and WBR administiring Prince's publishing, something Prince bitched about in the 1990s? That was something PRINCE DEMANDED back when he signed his first deal with WBR.

.

but the true colors of the business eventually showed itself to him.

.

Yeah, let's pretend Prince wasn't keeping artists hostage himself back in the early-/mid-1990s. And 25+ years later Prince never managed to come up with a viable alternative, and was selling records through rinky-dink fan operated online record stores because nobody was willing to sign a distribution deal with him.

*

Can you provide an actual account of how much money WB lost on Prince? I'm asking because I don't actually know. What I do know is that the sales of Prince more than balanced the cost of For You. Dirty Mind actually didn't lose money and eventually became hailed by all responsible people as a Prince classic. Isn't that the job of WB to recognize greatness when they see it? Despite its limited ability to get “airplay,” the WB executives realized that they had a jewel on their hands with Dirty Mind. Controversy is another gold record. So, it seems that before 1999, Prince wss actually making WB more money than he's costing them. As for those side projects, yes, there were a few lame ones, but WB made more money off The Time, Vanity 6, and Shelia E than they lost. I think that's correct, but I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, Prince was treated like royalty until he realized that even being treated like royalty in the music business doesn't give one nearly the money or power as the WB executives. Prince realized that if WB could give him a $100 million then how much more was WB earning off his work? And, let's be clear what Prince's real issues were: the ability to release music that WB refused to release, the ability to own his masters, and the ability to earn more off his talent than someone else. Yes, those are really unreasonable desires, especially when he stated that these were is desires. You act like Prince was lying about his motives. As for his latter releases, Prince was inflexible and did not want to change with the new model of not giving artists large sums of upfront money for "possible" sales. Yet, I applaud his ability to demand his own terms even if it meant not getting what he ultimately wanted. However, you are omitting one important aspect. Prince DID continue to release music on his own terms. You can call it "rinky-dink," but just about every album he wanted to release was released. Seems to me that Prince was able to have his cake and eat it while you are still serving the same ole sad sour grapes. And, yes, Prince could be dick and he was batshit crazy, but that doesn’t mean that he wasn’t right about an artist having the legal right to shop work (album or single) to another company or outlet if the current company refuses to release it. He was also right that artists should own their own art and that artists should get the lion’s share of the profits for their own art. Of course, it is the responsibility of the artists to learn as much as they can about the business; yet, if that is so, then why is it a bad thing for Prince to be willing to discuss and make more public this issue so that others (artists and fans who might not know this information) can be more informed? yes, Prince was concerned with his own issue, but most people who become involved in causes do so because that cause impacts them. As a Afro-Mississippian I’ve dedicated my life’s work to fighting against the racial, class, and gender injustices in my state. Two of those issues directly impact me, which is what propelled me into this work. As such, Prince was more right than he was wrong on this issue. What I find funny is that when the millionaire artists and athletes complain about being treated unfairly by their billionaire executives/owners why is it that the average Joe seems to always take the side of the billionaire owner as if it is acceptable to mistreat someone if they are worth a certain amount of money.