...

[Edited 7/14/16 13:17pm]

NouveauDance said:

It's the perspective from Prince's own unique view of feminism yes. Where female empowerment comes from being told what to wear by your boyfriend slash producer, and what he wants you to wear is a bra and panties in front of ten thousand people while you grind up and down his leg.

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I have had lots of jobs, and every one of them had a dress code.

Prince didn't ask the women to wear any less than what he would strip down to himself.

And David Bowie was the one who came up with the giving the guitarist a simulated blowjob while they are performing on stage.

Was it sexism then when it was a dude on a dude?

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[Edited 7/16/16 22:25pm]

QueenofCardboard said:

NouveauDance said:

It's the perspective from Prince's own unique view of feminism yes. Where female empowerment comes from being told what to wear by your boyfriend slash producer, and what he wants you to wear is a bra and panties in front of ten thousand people while you grind up and down his leg.

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I have had lots of jobs, and everyone of them had a dress code. Prince didn't ask the women to wear any less than he would strip down too. And David Bowie was the one who came up with the giving the guitarist a simulated blowjob while they are performing on stage.

The way he presented Gayle's options left a lot to be desired though. There were nicer ways of explaining that that vision was important to him and seeing if she would be prepared to do it. The clothes themselves I don't see as the issue. I have worn less on stage without a second thought.

[Edited 7/15/16 3:11am]

sunset3121 said:

QueenofCardboard said:

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I have had lots of jobs, and everyone of them had a dress code. Prince didn't ask the women to wear any less than he would strip down too. And David Bowie was the one who came up with the giving the guitarist a simulated blowjob while they are performing on stage.

The way he presented Gayle's options left a lot to be desired though. There were nicer ways of explaining that that vision was important to him and seeing if she would be prepared to do it.

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Well, I am going to leave it up to her be mad at him for that.

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I didn't see Wendy or Lisa wearing anything too revealing.

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And I think that Prince might have taken it all off if it was legal.

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People call me rude,

I wish we all were nude
I wish there was no black and white,

I wish there were no rules
(repeat 3 times)
Controversy Controversy

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LyricWiki

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If you want to think that Prince was a sexist go ahead.

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It doesn't change the fact that "P Control" is a great song, and YES, a Feminist Anthem.

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[Edited 7/16/16 22:31pm]

QueenofCardboard said:

I have had lots of jobs, and every one of them had a dress code. Prince didn't ask the women to wear any less than he would strip down too. And David Bowie was the one who came up with the giving the guitarist a simulated blowjob while they are performing on stage.

I like you!

sunset3121 said:

PeteSilas said:

maybe you live in a whole different universe than I do. Maybe you are a wonderful person, I wouldn't know really. People who tend to say those kinds of things don't have that great of a track record. Humans, being the way the are, tend to project, rationalize, minimize or repress things they've done wrong. Not admit them openly. I can only go on my life and what I've experienced but I've known so many "wonderful" "successful" people who once you get to know them, you see them for what they are an it's not what they show to the world. In fact, alot of what people show publicly is nothing like who they are. Just look at Prince, the control freak who abstained from drugs, ending up just like the rest of the rockstars. I do believe that he did that to Jill, I wasn't there, so I don't know. But let's just say, given all the nasty things he's done to people, and also, his high strung and stressful lifestyle, I could see him snapping. Now, the issue of human evil, what is it? well, according to Joseph Campbell, "Everything we do is evil to someone". That's a wide net to cast so I'll just say that were are both good and evil, capable of terrible things and great things. The same Prince who broke Jill's arm is the guy who gave out checks and money to people he didn't even know.

Your so sure he did it. I would not like you on a jury. Where is the evidence? I don't know him. I wasn't there - but so far, all there is is a rumour.

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The exceptionally 'successful' people are usually far from wonderful. They are often very selfish, self promoting and narcissistic (although sometimes wonderful things are created that way). It is the ones that quietly get on with things that are usually wonderful (but never perfect).

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You certainly cast a wide net with evil. I cast a very, very narrow one. I see very few people as evil - and even those (like the murderer of my relative) I don't have any hate for. I think they are very sad, damaged people and just wish that kind of mental damage didn't exist in the world.

you seem like you plain don't want to believe it. Neither of us were there so neither of us knows but I said it's on here if you want to read up on it. Jill Jones never spoke publicly about it so until she does so we'll never know for sure.

as far as human evil, i'll let you go on by yourself there.

NouveauDance said:

QueenofCardboard said:

I have had lots of jobs, and every one of them had a dress code. Prince didn't ask the women to wear any less than he would strip down too. And David Bowie was the one who came up with the giving the guitarist a simulated blowjob while they are performing on stage.

I like you!

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Thanks

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you seem like you plain don't want to believe it. Neither of us were there so neither of us knows but I said it's on here if you want to read up on it. Jill Jones never spoke publicly about it so until she does so we'll never know for sure.

as far as human evil, i'll let you go on by yourself there.

It's not whether I want to believe it or not. It is when there is enough evidence to make a reliable judgement. Until that point I would not talk about belief.

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I don't know enough to guess what he did or did not do and I could only make judgements based on my perception of reality not his. Lots of people said he was supportive of them, lots said he could be very controlling and sometimes just had black moods. There is sufficient evidence so I believe them. Not one person that knows him has said he broke arms so I'd have to see more evidence before I would pin it on him.

sunset3121 said:

you seem like you plain don't want to believe it. Neither of us were there so neither of us knows but I said it's on here if you want to read up on it. Jill Jones never spoke publicly about it so until she does so we'll never know for sure.

as far as human evil, i'll let you go on by yourself there.

It's not whether I want to believe it or not. It is when there is enough evidence to make a reliable judgement. Until that point I would not talk about belief.

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I don't know enough to guess what he did or did not do and I could only make judgements based on my perception of reality not his. Lots of people said he was supportive of them, lots said he could be very controlling and sometimes just had black moods. There is sufficient evidence so I believe them. Not one person that knows him has said he broke arms so I'd have to see more evidence before I would pin it on him.

sounds like we live in different worlds, which is understandable. You're in a world where your experience has been that people are wonderful. My experience has been that I don't put anything past anyone at any moment.

icequeen78 said:

Men telling women to take charge of their sexuality and use it for their own gains is nothing new... In the Jamaican dancehall world artists usually sing songs like that .. Shabba ranks has a song "pay down pon it (basically make a down-payment on it) where he sings- if a man want it make him pay down pon ut.. nothing for nothing baby ..basically urging women that if a man wants to bed them he'd better be helping them out in some financial way.. paying a bill or buying a house or something Buju banton also had a song like this where the lyrics in some way advocate that the women get their money first "cash up front " and without it.. nothing should happen. Basically don't give away pussy for nothing. Make sure it is profitable to you in some way...

.

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Oh no, don't U think about callin' her a ho
U juvenile delinquent
Best sit your ass down
Talkin' about Pussy Control

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LyricWiki

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That is not what the message of this song is.

He is singing the praises of career women.

And he is making the point that because they support themselves they don't need a man.

Thus they can afford to be chooseier about who they go out with.

They may even decide that they don't want a man at all.

Either way, they are in control of their lives because they are financially independent.

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[Edited 7/16/16 1:55am]

MendesCity said:

Angelsoncrack said:

Honestly, I know this is more P&R but with the track record modern day feminism has, you'd be suprised just how many women themselves are against 2016-brand-feminism these days. Myself included.

Feminism means equal rights for women. Not sure how's there any justifiable argument against that. What do you mean by "modern track record"?

[Edited 7/13/16 4:54am]

Feminism has a thousand permutations and grab me anyone saying they are X type of feminist and I'll find you someone saying "that person is not a feminist because of X stance"
people use it as a synonym of sorts for egalatarianism with a caveat that women have it worse by a mile and others use it to say men face no issues worth a mention and actually have an overt system by which they control the world and all its subsystems.

someone else mentioned mansplaining - the word is "patronising" (well, there is a meta reference and pun there , it works so I'll keep it) but with the pretence that men do lots more patronising than anybody else and that it occurs when discussing womens issues

icequeen78 said:

Men telling women to take charge of their sexuality and use it for their own gains is nothing new... In the Jamaican dancehall world artists usually sing songs like that .. Shabba ranks has a song "pay down pon it (basically make a down-payment on it) where he sings- if a man want it make him pay down pon ut.. nothing for nothing baby ..basically urging women that if a man wants to bed them he'd better be helping them out in some financial way.. paying a bill or buying a house or something Buju banton also had a song like this where the lyrics in some way advocate that the women get their money first "cash up front " and without it.. nothing should happen. Basically don't give away pussy for nothing. Make sure it is profitable to you in some way...

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You got it all wrong so I think I'll spell it out for you. Sometimes it helps to read the lyrics instead of just listening to them. Look them up on LyricWiki

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Pussy got bank in her pockets
Before she got dick in her drawers
If brother didn't have good 'n' plenty of his own
In love Pussy never did fall

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LyricWiki

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I think that you may be misunderstanding the meaning of these lyrics.

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"Bank in per pockets" refers to earning a paycheck, not to being paid upfront for sex.

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"before she got dick in her drawers" refers to her being more focused on her career than on finding a man.

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"If brother didn't have good 'n' plenty of his own In love Pussy never did fall" refers to her holding the men that she dates to the same high standards and work ethics that she requires of herself.

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i.e. she can take care of herself and she wants a man who can take care of himself.

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It is telling women, that men will rise to the level of expectation, so expect a lot and don't accept any less.

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And this fool named Trick wanna stick her
Uh, talkin' more shit than a bitch
'Bout how he gonna make Pussy a star
If she come and sing a lick on his hit

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Pussy said "Nigga, U crazy if U don't know
Every woman in the world ain't a freak (Pussy)
U can go platinum 4 times
Still couldn't make what I make in a week (Pussy)

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LyricWiki

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If you read these lyrics carefully you'll see that Prince is describing a situation in which some dude is offering do something for her if she has sex with him, and she refuses him because she isn't a whore.

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Why isn't she a whore?

Because she doesn't have to be.

She made sure of that by becoming financially independent.

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So push up on somebody that wanna hear that
Cuz this somebody here don't wanna know (Pussy)
Boy, U better act like U understand
When U roll with Pussy Control

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LyricWiki

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In these lyrics he is actually making the point that she finds his offer insulting, and implies that the guy must be clueless if he thinks that that is what she is about.

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Can I tell U what I'm thinkin' that U already know?
U need a motherfucker that respects your name"
Now say it, Pussy Control

CHORUS

And the moral of this motherfucker is
Ladies, make'em act like they know
U are, was, and always will be Pussy Control

Aaah, Pussy Control, oh
(Pussy, Pussy, Pussy, Pussy Control)

Peace and be wild
Say what, huh?
Oh no, don't U think about callin' her a ho
U juvenile delinquent
Best sit your ass down
Talkin' about Pussy Control
(Pussy, Pussy, Pussy, Pussy Control)
Huh, can U dig it?

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LyricWiki

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In these last lyrics Prince even spells it out and appearantly people still don't get it. He is telling women to insist on being treated with respect. And don't associate with men who think that your sex is for sale and that your choosiness is simply just your way of negotiating for a higher price.

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I love this song. and Yes it is a Feminist Anthem

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[Edited 7/16/16 13:49pm]

PeteSilas said:

sunset3121 said:

It's not whether I want to believe it or not. It is when there is enough evidence to make a reliable judgement. Until that point I would not talk about belief.

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I don't know enough to guess what he did or did not do and I could only make judgements based on my perception of reality not his. Lots of people said he was supportive of them, lots said he could be very controlling and sometimes just had black moods. There is sufficient evidence so I believe them. Not one person that knows him has said he broke arms so I'd have to see more evidence before I would pin it on him.

sounds like we live in different worlds, which is understandable. You're in a world where your experience has been that people are wonderful. My experience has been that I don't put anything past anyone at any moment.

It sounds like you have been let down badly by people around you recently. I hope it all improves soon or that you find better people to fill your life.

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Terrible things have happened in my life and I was fortunate to have good people around me to work through my black moods with me when I was low or simply restore my faith in people when it had been dented. These are the people I judge to be wonderful. I hope you find the same.

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Best wishes to you Pete.

sunset3121 said:

PeteSilas said:

sounds like we live in different worlds, which is understandable. You're in a world where your experience has been that people are wonderful. My experience has been that I don't put anything past anyone at any moment.

It sounds like you have been let down badly by people around you recently. I hope it all improves soon or that you find better people to fill your life.

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Terrible things have happened in my life and I was fortunate to have good people around me to work through my black moods with me when I was low or simply restore my faith in people when it had been dented. These are the people I judge to be wonderful. I hope you find the same.

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Best wishes to you Pete.

that's the thing, who needs people, life itself is wonderful, just wonderful. you shouldn't put your faith in anyone but god and yourself anyway. do not get me wrong, i love life and the more i can stay away from toxic issues and the people who have them, the better.

QueenofCardboard said:

icequeen78 said:

QueenofCardboard said:

.

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Oh no, don't U think about callin' her a ho
U juvenile delinquent
Best sit your ass down
Talkin' about Pussy Control

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LyricWiki

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That is not what the message of this song is.

He is singing the praises of career women.

And he is making the point that because they support themselves they don't need a man.

Thus they can afford to be chooseier about who they go out with.

They may even decide that they don't want a man at all.

Either way, they are in control of their lives because they are financially independent.

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[Edited 7/16/16 1:55am]

Nobody said anything about being a ho. If you don't understand then say so but don't put words to my screen name. The Jamaican concept as well as prince is about giving women financial agency and them using their bodies to achieve this. Rather than being a silly bimbo that a man can use and toss away with nothing to show... smh..

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That may be the Jamaican concept, but that is not the idea that Prince is putting forward in "P Control".

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His idea is that women should use their minds to get ahead, and focus on a careers, so they won't have to use their bodies to get ahead.

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And that women who do this should be respected for it.

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I didn't put any words to your screen name, I put them to my screen name, and I am allowed to do that.

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I think that you got the message of "P Control" backwards.

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Perhaps you are so distracted by the word "Pussy" that you are not listening close enough to the rest of the lyrics.

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ETHERSPIN said:

MendesCity said:

Feminism means equal rights for women. Not sure how's there any justifiable argument against that. What do you mean by "modern track record"?

[Edited 7/13/16 4:54am]

Feminism has a thousand permutations and grab me anyone saying they are X type of feminist and I'll find you someone saying "that person is not a feminist because of X stance"
people use it as a synonym of sorts for egalatarianism with a caveat that women have it worse by a mile and others use it to say men face no issues worth a mention and actually have an overt system by which they control the world and all its subsystems.

someone else mentioned mansplaining - the word is "patronising" (well, there is a meta reference and pun there , it works so I'll keep it) but with the pretence that men do lots more patronising than anybody else and that it occurs when discussing womens issues

I didn't want to continue this debate as it was getting a little too P&R and didn't want to keep going off topic, but you hit the nail on the head Etherspin. MendesCity did exactly what you just mentioned on the last page of this thread:

MendesCity said:

To me, what you're reacting to is more the prevalence of PC/academic culture (which I agree can be really oppressive) rather than what feminism actually means. That said, calling out misrepresentations of the core concept (like the ones you cited) is defintely important.

That's the thing though. What does Feminism actually mean?

>Inb4 the dictionary definition of Feminism is brought into this discussion. Actions speak louder than words.

What needs to be understood is that the very prevalance of PC/Academic culture is what created and upholds the very structure of the Feminism you see today. It started in the early 90's as described many times by Christina Hoff Sommers if you are interested.

The bottom line is this. What is the most popular form(s) of Feminism today? And what are the main structures of these sub-catogories of Feminism? The answer is mostly the types of Feminism that follow the Marxist-esque idea of 'oppressor' as man (The Bourgeois) and the 'oppressed' as women (The working class).

Thus you end up with hundreds and thousands of women believing that some force is out to get them and hold them down. This, combined with the generation of 'I want this but don't want to work for it or face any repurcussions of my actions' produces a tidal wave of self-entitled 17-30 odd yr olds who have been through university and believe they are entitled to special treatment because of what lies between their legs.

I do not doubt that there are issues facing women. I also don't doubt that there are issues facing men. But I do know that the way to face these issues is not through cry-baby whining politics of third-wave feminism, that believes because a man needs space for his legs on a train he should be fined.

Like I say, sorry if this got a little too P&R for this section of the forum. I respect everyones opinions and don't think less of anyone who wants to identify as a feminist, I just have my reasons for not wanting to myself personally.