[Edited 5/31/16 12:25pm]

[Edited 5/31/16 19:55pm]

SunnyGirl8 said:

.

.

The ‘How depressed was he about Vanity?’ thread was started by and large because of the dedication made by Prince to Vanity/Denise Matthews in Melbourne when she died. Amongst the other things he stated at the time, he dedicated the following songs to her - Little Red Corvette, Dirty Mind, The Ladder, The Beautiful Ones and Adore. This raised suspicions as to her role in his life as many of these songs are over 30 years old and Adore, in particular, is a ‘declaration of love’ song.

Many things have been discussed on this thread.

What has been uncovered is her significance to his creative work, she would appear to be his muse. That does not necessarily imply that there was a traditional relationship happening. That also does not detract from many other significant themes he may discuss in his work like religion or for that matter, any of his publicly expressed private beliefs to do with spirituality.

For anyone who’s been trying to understand how Prince was communicating to/about Vanity/Denise through his art, it would appear whenever you see a mirror or hear him talk about a mirror he is talking about/to her.

This aligns with the widely circulated story in the press that the mirror theme also ties to Vanity’s name:
“At the suggestion of Prince, she changed her name to Vanity, she says, because she was a mirror in which he saw reflections of himself.” Ebony, November 1987
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u8wDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA168&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

The “mirror” appears repeatedly through his work and the examples we’ve uncovered here are:

1984 - When Doves Cry - He sings while directly looking into the mirror “How could you just leave me standing, alone in a world that’s so cold?” then “Why do we scream at other? This is what it sounds like when doves cry”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFxI61jTYJY

1991 - Cream, Diamonds & Pearls - In 2004 during an MTV special called Prince:The Art of Musicology taped at New York’s Webster Hall, he performs Cream and playfully stops at one point to comment “You know I wrote this while I was looking in the mirror right”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGUlGFTLoOs

1991 - Diamonds & Pearls, Diamonds & Pearls - There is a female dancer in the mirror that looks like Vanity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VKJIdmL1VU

Late 1994/March 1995 - Empty Room, (No studio version of track released) - In the video, Prince will not look into the mirror. This was aired during the UK tour in March 1995, which coincides with Denise’s marriage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3DlEmXkIss

1999 - Hot With U (Nasty Girl Remix) - There’s no mirror in this video but Vanity’s image is used throughout which is unsurprising as it’s using the Nasty Girl remix. There are references to Pretty Mess Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aIq1zxXqU

2007 - Somewhere Here On Earth, Planet Earth - Woman in Mirror who is dressed in clothing similar to Vanity’s Skin On Skin album cover appears throughout the video. This is probably the most striking alignment to Vanity/Denise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAluL631Ygk

2009 - Dance 4 Me, MPLSound - Interview with French press, Hotel Costes Press Conference, Oct 12 2009, Paris: He’s asked whether he was thinking about someone special when he wrote the song Dance 4 Me on MPLSound album and he says "I was looking in the mirror when I wrote it." (6:45)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BizpQz9L1

Prince’s work is multi-dimensional and very complex. There are many other cross references musically, visually and lyrically to be explored.

As mentioned previously, the more I look at this whole thread and differing opinions on here it leads to one clear conclusion, if you really you want to get to the bottom of what he felt and thought, look at what he's writing and singing about. He's telling you what he thinks. And he's telling you in a really clever way with all these layered nuances of symbolism and language. He totally exploits every art form he touches to give you a full multi-dimensional story. And he was a master at conveying his emotions and feelings through music. Why do you think that all of you feel so much for him? It's not just about how he looked.

Thanks to all of you on the thread for helping to uncover this! No offence intended.

.

ASIDE: An analysis of the timeframe surrounding the release of the song Adore and Vanity, Prince and Nikki Sixx's relationships in 1986/87 - can be found at (prince.org Thread: How depressed was he about Vanity? Reply#1107 Pg37, SunnyGirl8 ).

.
Source: This is a copy of the original thread posted on prince.org Thread: How depressed was he about Vanity? Reply #2001, SunnyGirl8

[Edited 5/30/16 18:22pm]

[Edited 5/30/16 18:23pm]

I'm apologizing now in case I'm late, but did you all see this article: http://www.margenachristi...d-upon-him

I didn't know Vanity died on the same day his mother died 14 years earlier

roxy831 said:

SunnyGirl8 said:

.

.

The ‘How depressed was he about Vanity?’ thread was started by and large because of the dedication made by Prince to Vanity/Denise Matthews in Melbourne when she died. Amongst the other things he stated at the time, he dedicated the following songs to her - Little Red Corvette, Dirty Mind, The Ladder, The Beautiful Ones and Adore. This raised suspicions as to her role in his life as many of these songs are over 30 years old and Adore, in particular, is a ‘declaration of love’ song.

Many things have been discussed on this thread.

What has been uncovered is her significance to his creative work, she would appear to be his muse. That does not necessarily imply that there was a traditional relationship happening. That also does not detract from many other significant themes he may discuss in his work like religion or for that matter, any of his publicly expressed private beliefs to do with spirituality.

For anyone who’s been trying to understand how Prince was communicating to/about Vanity/Denise through his art, it would appear whenever you see a mirror or hear him talk about a mirror he is talking about/to her.

This aligns with the widely circulated story in the press that the mirror theme also ties to Vanity’s name:
“At the suggestion of Prince, she changed her name to Vanity, she says, because she was a mirror in which he saw reflections of himself.” Ebony, November 1987
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u8wDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA168&redir_esc=y&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

The “mirror” appears repeatedly through his work and the examples we’ve uncovered here are:

1984 - When Doves Cry - He sings while directly looking into the mirror “How could you just leave me standing, alone in a world that’s so cold?” then “Why do we scream at other? This is what it sounds like when doves cry”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFxI61jTYJY

1991 - Cream, Diamonds & Pearls - In 2004 during an MTV special called Prince:The Art of Musicology taped at New York’s Webster Hall, he performs Cream and playfully stops at one point to comment “You know I wrote this while I was looking in the mirror right”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGUlGFTLoOs

1991 - Diamonds & Pearls, Diamonds & Pearls - There is a female dancer in the mirror that looks like Vanity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VKJIdmL1VU

Late 1994/March 1995 - Empty Room, (No studio version of track released) - In the video, Prince will not look into the mirror. This was aired during the UK tour in March 1995, which coincides with Denise’s marriage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3DlEmXkIss

1999 - Hot With U (Nasty Girl Remix) - There’s no mirror in this video but Vanity’s image is used throughout which is unsurprising as it’s using the Nasty Girl remix. There are references to Pretty Mess Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aIq1zxXqU

2007 - Somewhere Here On Earth, Planet Earth - Woman in Mirror who is dressed in clothing similar to Vanity’s Skin On Skin album cover appears throughout the video. This is probably the most striking alignment to Vanity/Denise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAluL631Ygk

2009 - Dance 4 Me, MPLSound - Interview with French press, Hotel Costes Press Conference, Oct 12 2009, Paris: He’s asked whether he was thinking about someone special when he wrote the song Dance 4 Me on MPLSound album and he says "I was looking in the mirror when I wrote it." (6:45)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BizpQz9L1

Prince’s work is multi-dimensional and very complex. There are many other cross references musically, visually and lyrically to be explored.

As mentioned previously, the more I look at this whole thread and differing opinions on here it leads to one clear conclusion, if you really you want to get to the bottom of what he felt and thought, look at what he's writing and singing about. He's telling you what he thinks. And he's telling you in a really clever way with all these layered nuances of symbolism and language. He totally exploits every art form he touches to give you a full multi-dimensional story. And he was a master at conveying his emotions and feelings through music. Why do you think that all of you feel so much for him? It's not just about how he looked.

Thanks to all of you on the thread for helping to uncover this! No offence intended.

.

ASIDE: An analysis of the timeframe surrounding the release of the song Adore and Vanity, Prince and Nikki Sixx's relationships in 1986/87 - can be found at (prince.org Thread: How depressed was he about Vanity? Reply#1107 Pg37, SunnyGirl8 ).

.
Source: This is a copy of the original thread posted on prince.org Thread: How depressed was he about Vanity? Reply #2001, SunnyGirl8

[Edited 5/30/16 18:22pm]

[Edited 5/30/16 18:23pm]

I'm apologizing now in case I'm late, but did you all see this article: http://www.margenachristi...d-upon-him

I didn't know Vanity died on the same day his mother died 14 years earlier

No I didn't but thanks for sharing.

In this Johnny Carson show Vanity talks about mirrors and her love of them: https://youtu.be/UtAqERyPDkw

bigtimefan said:

In this Johnny Carson show Vanity talks about mirrors and her love of them: https://youtu.be/UtAqERyPDkw

Wow I didn't realise that! Thanks

[Edited 5/30/16 19:58pm]

purplegirl00 said:

Just watched the video for "A Million Days" and I was trying to understand what's going on but the lady in the video is putting lipstick while looking in the mirror (2:31) and then the mirror does a kaleidoscope motion with the girl's face in the mirror. There are also clips of a couple showering throughout the video. I'm trying to figure out what the little girl represents- the child version of the girl? I don't know but it is interesting. Thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFUmqIoCvTA

Popped response on other thread

kenkamken said:

[img:$uid]http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/21303846/sn/967035031/name/660969270_l.jpg[/img:$uid][/img]

kenkamken said:

His writing would sometimes need to be held up to a mirror to read, and backmasking on recordings as well [Edited 5/30/16 19:49pm]

Gosh I'm learning so much I had no idea! Thanks

avajane said:

This is simply a suggestion but you could simply add a Part 2 to that gigantic Prince and Vanity thread and include this thread in it. You could ask the moderators to do it that way things can be kept together in a neat way and easier to find.

Thanks for your help!

spastic78 said:

Empty room was written not about Vanity, but about his true muse Susannah Melvoin. In fact, it was written and recorded immediately following a spat in which she broke up with him and walked out. Prince started working on the song that same day.

Prince had several muses back in the day Anna, Sherilyn, Troy, Sheila E, Devin DeVasquez along with Susannah

[Edited 5/30/16 23:28pm]

rlj1965 said:

Entirely too much is being made of Prince's relationship with Vanity simply because they die within a short time period.

spastic78 said:

Prince's mom did not die on April 21st....a friend of Mattie (his mom) died on gat day... Baker - Mattie Della, age 68, of Golden Valley, passed away peacefully Feb. 15, 2002 at Fairview Southdale Hospital after a long illness. She was a retired social worker with the Mpls. Public School System. She was highly regarded by family and friends and will forever be missed by all. Survived by husband Hayward Baker; children, Alfred Jackson, Prince Roger Nelson, Tyka Nelson, Omarr Baker; twin sister, Edna Mae Collier; grandsons, Sir Nelson, President Nelson; and many loving nieces, nephews, cousins and friends. Memorial Service 11am Friday Feb. 22, 2002 ZION BAPTIST CHURCH, 621 Elwood Ave. N., Mpls. Interment Fort Snelling National Cemetery. Washburn-McReavy 612-377-2203. - See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obi...aoZi6.dpuf

Nobody said Prince's mom died on April 21. Who are you quoting?

FUNKYNESS said:

Entirely too much is being made of Prince's relationship with Vanity simply because they die within a short time period.

too

Hogwash

Though it seems many of us may not put too much stock in spirituality and mysticism, Prince did. I believe we can agree on that much. That said, we don't know how heavily or how close to the heart Prince took all these "signs." The mind is a complex thing. Let's be respectful.

you know she gave up the Vanity thing for God, she said. So I think people shouldn' t call her Vanity and should call her Denise out of respect.

BillieBalloon said:

Why would he need to talk to her through mirrors when he could have talked to her in person? There's no doubt he wrote some songs about her but I think you're putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5. Also the ref about cream and writing it whilst looking in the mirror was meant to be a funny comment as the lyrics are "you are the best' etc. And him singing these to himself was a tongue in cheek comment. Also there is no girl that looks like vanity in the mirror in the D&P video If so..screenshot please.

Thanks for your interest and looking at the video.

The dancer is obviously in the room with him throughout the video.

Between 1:13 -1:22 on this link you'll see her in the mirror. He's sitting in a chair with his back to the mirror.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VKJIdmL1VU

PurpleMusic07 said:

rlj1965 said:

Empty room was written not about Vanity, but about his true muse Susannah Melvoin. In fact, it was written and recorded immediately following a spat in which she broke up with him and walked out. Prince started working on the song that same day.

Yeah THAT. All of the Vanity theories are interesting, especially the mirror thing. BUT there is the blaring issue of Susannah (and later Mayte). The idea that whoever Prince and Vanity dated, between the mid80s and Vanity's marriage in 95, were covers seems pretty out there. I can accept that perhaps he always had love for her and perhaps even wished they would havev worked, but he also gave off similar vibes about Susannah and Mayte. The other thing I'll say is that perhaps the songs he performed @ the Melbourne show were directly about Denise, but another way of lookking at it is that he was in shock and clear mourning. All the songs he did are about deep intense love. It's not out of the realm of possibility that those songs just happened to fit his feelings at that time. All of those songs could be about any one or multiple people all at once.

Thanks for your interest in the thread, your comments are appreciated. We had quite a discussion about Empty Rooms too.

.

Empty Rooms has a unique history.
It was initially recorded on 4 Aug 1985 as a Studio recording that wasn’t released.
Prince then revisited the song mid-late March 1992 Studio re-recording again for movie ‘I’ll do Anything’ but it wasn’t used in the film and it wasn’t released.
Then in late 1994 a Video version was made (using 1985 recording)
The 1994 Video version was then shown over March 1995 on the UK tour only (3-30 Mar 1995) which coincides with Vanity getting married 26 March 1995.
.
The video hasn't been shown since March 1995.
No studio version of the track has been issued.
This seems odd as he's very fond of this song and it’s a great track.
.
He has performed it occasionally in live shows (2002, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2014) and he has recorded it in live performances (2002, 2011, 2014).
.
During one of his live performances, I believe during the ONA tour in the early 2000's, he was talking to the audience and he asked the crowd had they ever had their hearts broken. He talked about how the person has been long gone and you still reminisce about that love.
.
That comment is actually on prince.org where he states:
"Have you ever come in the bathroom where your significant other was and found a strand of hair on the sink?
She long gone... been gone two months you take the hair out you just look at it and you just reminisce...
you just reminisce
you so upset you take the hair and tape it on the bathroom window
to remind you of the love
have you all had your heart broke talk to me TONIGHT!"-Prince proceeds to sing ER again
.
I don’t know anything about Susannah’s timeframe or relationship with Prince. Was she with Prince when this song was written? Perhaps you can tell me whether this comment applies and then if you think the song still relates to her?

[Edited 5/31/16 12:58pm]

SunnyGirl8 said:

PurpleMusic07 said:

rlj1965 said: Yeah THAT. All of the Vanity theories are interesting, especially the mirror thing. BUT there is the blaring issue of Susannah (and later Mayte). The idea that whoever Prince and Vanity dated, between the mid80s and Vanity's marriage in 95, were covers seems pretty out there. I can accept that perhaps he always had love for her and perhaps even wished they would havev worked, but he also gave off similar vibes about Susannah and Mayte. The other thing I'll say is that perhaps the songs he performed @ the Melbourne show were directly about Denise, but another way of lookking at it is that he was in shock and clear mourning. All the songs he did are about deep intense love. It's not out of the realm of possibility that those songs just happened to fit his feelings at that time. All of those songs could be about any one or multiple people all at once.

Thanks for you interest in the thread, your comments are appreciated. We had quite a discussion about Empty Rooms too.

.

Empty Rooms has a unique history.
It was initially recorded on 4 Aug 1985 as a Studio recording that wasn’t released.
Prince then revisited the song mid-late March 1992 Studio re-recording again for movie ‘I’ll do Anything’ but it wasn’t used in the film and it wasn’t released.
Then in late 1994 a Video version was made (using 1985 recording)
The 1994 Video version was then shown over March 1995 on the UK tour only (3-30 Mar 1995) which coincides with Vanity getting married 26 March 1995.
.
The video hasn't been shown since March 1995.
No studio version of the track that’s been issued.
This seems odd as he's very fond of this song and it’s a great track.
.
He has performed it occasionally in live shows in 2002, 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2014 and he has recorded it in live performances (2002, 2011, 2014).
.
During one of his live performances, I believe during the ONA tour in the early 2000's where he was talking to the audience and he asked the crowd had they ever had their hearts broke. He talked about how the person has been long gone and you still reminisce about that love.
.
That comment is actually on prince.org where he states:
"Have you ever come in the bathroom where your significant other was and found a strand of hair on the sink?
She long gone... been gone two months you take the hair out you just look at it and you just reminisce...
you just reminisce
you so upset you take the hair and tape it on the bathroom window
to remind you of the love
have you all had your heart broke talk to me TONIGHT!"-Prince proceeds to sing ER again
.
I don’t know anything about Susannah’s timeframe or relationship with Prince. Was she with Prince when this song was written? Perhaps you can tell me whether this comment applies and then if you think the song still relates to her?

[Edited 5/31/16 12:48pm]

Yes, he was with Susannah when he recorded Empty Room. It is one of those classic Susannah songs - much like The Beautiful Ones, Strange Relationship, Adore, Big Tall Wall, Crystal Ball, and countless others have been known to be.

-

I think it is perfectly understandable for a musician to apply certain feelings to a wide spectrum of people. Just because he wrote Empty Room about Susannah doesn't mean he never found some of Mani's hair in the bathroom, etc. Prince wrote about specific topics, but rarely wrote so specifically that a song was absolutely, very clearly about one specific person - save for things like Crystal Ball where he actually refers to something that happened in real life (Susannah painting the walls in Paisley Park).

Who has time in their life to think of all this?