Good morning Orgers,

I'm trying to complete my Prince collection, and I believe that everything I need is on Tidal and available for download. However, they have 2 options: FLAC or MP3. Yes, I realize that I may not be able to tell the difference, but I am anal about these things. That being said, the FLAC versions of the albums are $17.99, and the MP3 versions are $9.99, so I want to be sure I'm getting something for my money.

I realize that the original NPGMC releases were just MP3s. Has anyone actually converted the MP3s and Tidal FLACs into WAVs and compared the two? I would like to know if the FLACs are merely FLACed MP3s or if they were created from the original uncompressed source!!!

Toadlips said:

Good morning Orgers,

I'm trying to complete my Prince collection, and I believe that everything I need is on Tidal and available for download. However, they have 2 options: FLAC or MP3. Yes, I realize that I may not be able to tell the difference, but I am anal about these things. That being said, the FLAC versions of the albums are $17.99, and the MP3 versions are $9.99, so I want to be sure I'm getting something for my money.

I realize that the original NPGMC releases were just MP3s. Has anyone actually converted the MP3s and Tidal FLACs into WAVs and compared the two? I would like to know if the FLACs are merely FLACed MP3s or if they were created from the original uncompressed source!!!

I don't know about wave comparing them but I can't tell the difference. But I can't tell the difference between CD and a rip I've done myself at 320k mp3. I know that technically the CD is better, but I really can't hear it.

TrevorAyer said:

The flacs are better ... U will regret every penny spent on mp3 one day ... Once you have a good stereo and can hear the difference u will never listen to mp3 again

Nope, my ears are too old. Even on my decent gear at home, just can't hear it.

Thanks, guys. I'm not really debating the merits of the 2 formats. I understand that the FLAC file retains all of the details in the original music (whether I can hear them or not).

What I want to be sure of is that some fool at Tidal got the FLAC files from the source rather than just taking the NPGMC MP3s and converting them to FLAC. If that's the case, then the FLAC files would be no better than the MP3 files, if you see what I mean.

I just want to be sure that I'm getting what I'm paying for -- the original, lossless version of the songs on albums like The Chocolate Invasion and Welcome to the Slaughterhouse.

Toadlips said:

Thanks, guys. I'm not really debating the merits of the 2 formats. I understand that the FLAC file retains all of the details in the original music (whether I can hear them or not).

What I want to be sure of is that some fool at Tidal got the FLAC files from the source rather than just taking the NPGMC MP3s and converting them to FLAC. If that's the case, then the FLAC files would be no better than the MP3 files, if you see what I mean.

I just want to be sure that I'm getting what I'm paying for -- the original, lossless version of the songs on albums like The Chocolate Invasion and Welcome to the Slaughterhouse.

While I can't guarantee they came from the source they definitely sound better than the old NPGMC MP3's

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

I think The Chocolate Invasion is true lossless but the others are converted from lossy sources

oh no really?? Funnilly enough the Chocolate Invasion is the only one i've listened to in great detail on Tidal.

I think they sound much better. I've listened to the high quality Tidal versions of Chocolate Invasion and Slaughterhouse in headphones quite a few times and I'm amazed at the details that seemed to have emerged in the mixes that I never noticed before.

thetimefan said:

Dependent on the compression method, FLAC is much higher quality than MP3. Think of it as being more representative of a digital CD. That is its FLAC created from a lossy source as FLACs are lossless and you can make mp3 and AAC files from those. Creating a FLAC from mp3 is almost pointless since there will be a loss in quality.

Technically, there is no loss in quality going from MP3 to FLAC, as FLAC itself is lossless. Keep in mind that by doing that though, there is also no gain in quality. You're just making a larger file for nothing. It's a pointless exercise.

But, the first time someone makes another MP3 from that "low-quality" FLAC, now you're losing quality again.

To an earlier post, I doubt TIDAL would source their FLAC files from 15-year old MP3 files. I imagine that Prince provided the correct digital files (probably WAV files) that a TIDAL tech ripped into both FLAC and MP3.

I recently bought The Chocolate Invasion, The Slaughterhouse, C-NOTE, Xpecation and The War from TIDAL as FLAC files, but I also downloaded their MP3 versions as well (you get up to 3 downloads per purchase).

A quick comparison of C-NOTE for example:
- TIDAL's MP3 is 256 kbps, LAME 3.99

- NPGMC's MP3 is 128 kpbs, encoded with either "unknown" or "NPG"

So already the new MP3s are better even if you just go that route. I decided that these particular items probably would never be released as official CDs, so I opted for FLAC. I trust that TIDAL's sources are legit.

TheBoneRanger said:

I think they sound much better. I've listened to the high quality Tidal versions of Chocolate Invasion and Slaughterhouse in headphones quite a few times and I'm amazed at the details that seemed to have emerged in the mixes that I never noticed before.

I did that too, then went and listened to the MP3's and heard the same details.

I just sent an email to TIDAL with these questions - I will post here if/when I hear back.

Hello -

I am part of a Prince fansite, and there is a question about the quality -- and more specifically the source -- of the following Prince titles: The Chocolate Invasion, The Slaughterhouse, Xpectation, C-NOTE and The War. There is a fear that your FLAC files might be sourced from lossy original files. Can you confirm that the FLAC files are created using lossless original files?

If you can send me back your findings, I can share with the group. Thanks in advance!

Se7en said:

thetimefan said:

Dependent on the compression method, FLAC is much higher quality than MP3. Think of it as being more representative of a digital CD. That is its FLAC created from a lossy source as FLACs are lossless and you can make mp3 and AAC files from those. Creating a FLAC from mp3 is almost pointless since there will be a loss in quality.

Technically, there is no loss in quality going from MP3 to FLAC

.

Yes there is, since you don't know what the MP3 decoder will do. Conver the same MP3 to a WAV two times, and I doubt you'll get the exact same file each time.

BartVanHemelen said:

Se7en said:

Technically, there is no loss in quality going from MP3 to FLAC

.

Yes there is, since you don't know what the MP3 decoder will do. Conver the same MP3 to a WAV two times, and I doubt you'll get the exact same file each time.

The Mp3 decoder will do exactly what it does in order for you to listen to it, so if I make a FLAC on my computer and play it on my computer it should sound exactly the same as if I listen to the MP3 on my computer.

I believe Tidal claims to check all FLAC files they receive to check they are truly lossless. I doubt they would be legally able to stick to the claims they make about sound quality if they didn't. Hifi is basically their marketing platform.

I've bought all the stuff I didn't have on disc as FLAC from there and don't regret it. I was a little bummed at the replacement for the original version of "The Dance" though.

I have a fairly good sound system and they sound great. I've also made mp3 copies of them all for my phone. You can only convert one way without losing quality!

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

I think The Chocolate Invasion is true lossless but the others are converted from lossy sources

It'd make sense since that particular cut of TCI was unreleased.

GirlBrother said:

Can you buy downloads from there without subscribing? I have MP3s I'd like to replace. I bought the FLAC of the extended La La La He He Hee from Qobuz and it was needle drop. I could hear vinyl noise halfway through.

Yup. I don't subscribe, just shop.

databank said:

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

I think The Chocolate Invasion is true lossless but the others are converted from lossy sources

It'd make sense since that particular cut of TCI was unreleased.

If there's a suspicion that any of them aren't sourced from lossless, then wouldn't all of Prince's FLAC files on TIDAL be suspect?

I don't think TIDAL would open themselves up for that kind of trouble. I think they would just say "FLAC not available for this selection" or "the artist has chosen to not make FLAC available at this time".

TheEnglishGent said:

TheBoneRanger said:

I think they sound much better. I've listened to the high quality Tidal versions of Chocolate Invasion and Slaughterhouse in headphones quite a few times and I'm amazed at the details that seemed to have emerged in the mixes that I never noticed before.

I did that too, then went and listened to the MP3's and heard the same details.

-

Well, maybe it's the headphones I'm using now, which are recently acquired Logitech. I had a different, cheaper pair before hearing these Tidal versions. Perhaps if I went back and listened to the original MP3s in these new headphones they would sound exactly the same.......D'oh!

An example, take it for what it's worth:

On the TIDAL version of Y Should I Do That, When I Can Do This?, at the 1:09 point, there's a musical censorship keyboard sound over the variation of the "N" word.

In the NPGMC version, there is no censorship over the word.

I don't know whether that censorship sound was in the 2004 Musicology Store version, as I can't play those tracks anymore.

If it's not, then that would speak to these being "newly-supplied" versions and not upsamples from previous versions. At least in this case.

jaawwnn said:

While I can't guarantee they came from the source they definitely sound better than the old NPGMC MP3's

Se7en said:

An example, take it for what it's worth:

On the TIDAL version of Y Should I Do That, When I Can Do This?, at the 1:09 point, there's a musical censorship keyboard sound over the variation of the "N" word.

In the NPGMC version, there is no censorship over the word.

I don't know whether that censorship sound was in the 2004 Musicology Store version, as I can't play those tracks anymore.

If it's not, then that would speak to these being "newly-supplied" versions and not upsamples from previous versions. At least in this case.

Very good info! Thanks for that! That definitely points to a new source, which would imply that the FLACs are the real deal. Somebody else mentioned that you can download the album more than once, and I didn't realize that I could download the FLAC and MP3 versions. I think I will do that and convert them to WAVs just for the heck of it and compare. I already know they're ripping me off at $17.99, so the least I can do is keep them honest!

Se7en said:

An example, take it for what it's worth:

On the TIDAL version of Y Should I Do That, When I Can Do This?, at the 1:09 point, there's a musical censorship keyboard sound over the variation of the "N" word.

In the NPGMC version, there is no censorship over the word.

I don't know whether that censorship sound was in the 2004 Musicology Store version, as I can't play those tracks anymore.

If it's not, then that would speak to these being "newly-supplied" versions and not upsamples from previous versions. At least in this case.

Have you tried looking at the spectrograms? The person whom I talked to about it said that they showed that TCI was true lossless while The Slaughterhouse and C-NOTE were not (he didn't look at the others) but idk maybe it's worth checking again just in case. Could also try an automated programme like this, idk how reliable they are but might be worth a look: http://losslessaudiochecker.com/

Toadlips said:

jaawwnn said:

While I can't guarantee they came from the source they definitely sound better than the old NPGMC MP3's

Se7en said:

An example, take it for what it's worth:

On the TIDAL version of Y Should I Do That, When I Can Do This?, at the 1:09 point, there's a musical censorship keyboard sound over the variation of the "N" word.

In the NPGMC version, there is no censorship over the word.

I don't know whether that censorship sound was in the 2004 Musicology Store version, as I can't play those tracks anymore.

If it's not, then that would speak to these being "newly-supplied" versions and not upsamples from previous versions. At least in this case.

Very good info! Thanks for that! That definitely points to a new source, which would imply that the FLACs are the real deal. Somebody else mentioned that you can download the album more than once, and I didn't realize that I could download the FLAC and MP3 versions. I think I will do that and convert them to WAVs just for the heck of it and compare. I already know they're ripping me off at $17.99, so the least I can do is keep them honest!

Just to be clear, when you buy the FLAC you also get the MP3. The same is not true in reverse - if you buy the MP3, you will not have access to the FLAC.

Se7en said:

databank said:

It'd make sense since that particular cut of TCI was unreleased.

If there's a suspicion that any of them aren't sourced from lossless, then wouldn't all of Prince's FLAC files on TIDAL be suspect?

I don't think TIDAL would open themselves up for that kind of trouble. I think they would just say "FLAC not available for this selection" or "the artist has chosen to not make FLAC available at this time".

That is if they know about it. Prince delivered copies of his albums and they uploaded them as such. If there is no improvement on NPGMC albums (which seems to be contested though, as I've read several times they're better on Tidal), it's because Prince or someone in his team made a mistake. Let us not forget that we're talking about someone who sold... TV recordings of his own official videos at some point

I suspect anyway that P just asked his crew to undig such and such albums and that the reason why TCI is the original, unreleased version is because whomever dug it from the vault had no clue. Therefore it is possible that the "wrong" masters were selected by that same person for the other NPGMC albums.

The FLAC files to me sound great! They are certainly from the original source.

.

I do think the flac format is confusing people unnecessarily.

.

These days there are very few issues with bandwidth and storage, so the files could be left as WAV.

.

On the issue of compression, I wish people would stop converting files unneccesarily. For example BEFORE Xpectation was on Tidal, the original release was only ever MP3 256kbps - so WHY do I see people sharing various bit rates from 128 to 320 and even FLAC! NEVER CHANGE THE ORIGINAL FORMAT OR BIT RATE! AND NEVER POLUTE THE INTERNET WITH SUCH FILES. If you have ever historically downloaded Xpectation in other than 256kbps then you have a Screwed up file!!!!

.

databank said:

Se7en said:

If there's a suspicion that any of them aren't sourced from lossless, then wouldn't all of Prince's FLAC files on TIDAL be suspect?

I don't think TIDAL would open themselves up for that kind of trouble. I think they would just say "FLAC not available for this selection" or "the artist has chosen to not make FLAC available at this time".

That is if they know about it. Prince delivered copies of his albums and they uploaded them as such. If there is no improvement on NPGMC albums (which seems to be contested though, as I've read several times they're better on Tidal), it's because Prince or someone in his team made a mistake. Let us not forget that we're talking about someone who sold... TV recordings of his own official videos at some point

I suspect anyway that P just asked his crew to undig such and such albums and that the reason why TCI is the original, unreleased version is because whomever dug it from the vault had no clue. Therefore it is possible that the "wrong" masters were selected by that same person for the other NPGMC albums.

Yeah, I remember the horrible video - wasn't it from Japanese TV? Part of me wanted to make myself believe that Prince was going for a "bootleg" quality, but really I was just disappointed.

BartVanHemelen said:

Se7en said:

An example, take it for what it's worth:

On the TIDAL version of Y Should I Do That, When I Can Do This?, at the 1:09 point, there's a musical censorship keyboard sound over the variation of the "N" word.

In the NPGMC version, there is no censorship over the word.

I don't know whether that censorship sound was in the 2004 Musicology Store version, as I can't play those tracks anymore.

If it's not, then that would speak to these being "newly-supplied" versions and not upsamples from previous versions. At least in this case.

-

It was. I can't even begin to describe how much that pissed me off. I was far more offended by the jarring keyboard stab than I could ever possibly be from hearing the N word.