PeteSilas said:

wierdly, Peter Guralnick, whose books are the Elvis Bibles, doesn't say a bad thing about the colonel.

.

It's been a long while since I've read the Guralnick books, but I do remember the depiction of the Colonel was not a very glowing one. Maybe the books didn't attack him on a personal level like the Goldman book did, but Guralnick's telling did make it clear that the Colonel's strategies later in Elvis' career were extremely damaging to that career (the movie contracts, for instance).

Cloreen said:

PeteSilas said:

wierdly, Peter Guralnick, whose books are the Elvis Bibles, doesn't say a bad thing about the colonel.

.

It's been a long while since I've read the Guralnick books, but I do remember the depiction of the Colonel was not a very glowing one. Maybe the books didn't attack him on a personal level like the Goldman book did, but Guralnick's telling did make it clear that the Colonel's strategies later in Elvis' career were extremely damaging to that career (the movie contracts, for instance).

naw, he's on youtube defending the colonel too, saying that it was the right thing to do to tell elvis no overseas touring because of the pills (when it was really because colonel didn't want his cover blown) and he says elvis owed the colonel money, that's some bullshit right there.

only thing i can think of is that guralnick was loyal to the colonel for access to him or elvis at one point. other than that, can't think of any other reason. In fact, at the book signing, I wanted to ask him about that.

[Edited 6/1/16 11:56am]

Prince and Elvis were both amazing and influential recording artists and enertainers.

But I would say comparing the two of them, even their personal lives, is just a case of apples and oranges.

No one is perfect - I love both and I am going to choose to cherish what they left behind for us to enjoy.

[Edited 6/1/16 12:35pm]

Still feeling the loss of Prince deeply but I'm not surprised the original thread spawned a follow up thread.

Sorry in advance, this is going to be a long one...

There are some great (and often heated) old threads talking about Prince and Elvis, from the Elvis songs Prince covered (most surprising "Let me be your Teddy bear", which is awesome if you ever get a chance to hear it), the race issue, musical style issue, well damn there is a thread for just about every possible angle to discuss these two monumental artists at the same time.

I keep seeing the "apple and oranges" type comments and I think that Prince and Elvis, at their respective peaks, had more in common than a lot of modern audience members realize. These similarites are strongest in three important areas, gender/sexuality, race and religion.

One that often goes unexplored is how they played around with gender identity/sexuality. I think in most people's minds, 50's Elvis is seen in black and white. When, I think "in color" just how challenging he was to the norm becomes far more evident. He was wearing pink pants, lace shirts and blue eye shadow in the 50's for Christ's sake. How shocking that must have been for the audiences in the 50's. Probably given how conservative the world was at that time (you couldn't say pregnant on TV and married couples were depicted as sleeping in separate beds...) I think it would be safe to say that he was as or even more shocking to the 50's audience that Prince was to the 80's. Add his suggestive stage performances where he would often end shows saying "Ladies, I'll meet you back stage" it is not hard to imagine what a shock to the "sexual system" he really was dressed as a gay man, performing like a stripper and inviting young ladies backstage...No wonder the press and politicians of the day attacked Presley so savagely. Also no wonder K.D Lang called 50's Elvis "the true androgynous beauty."

Whe stylistically there are clear differences between Prince and Elvis' appearance there are definite similarities and more importantly similar impact on their audience.

The issue of Race is probably the most explored in the other threads but it is important to note that they were both seen as artists who ignored the social expectations of what race meant in music. People often bring up the dubious Sam Philips quote about finding a white man with the black feel to his music, but what is important to note is that when he was auditioning Elvis with back up from Scotty Moore and Bill Black, he didn't lead him in any particular direction. The song he presented to Elvis to record was a ballad, and it didn't work. They worked for hours on other ballads and while the group started working well together there was no magic. Elvis spontaneously broke into "That's All Right, Mama" during a break. According to Phillips himself he told Elvis "why have you been holding out on me all this time [...] and that first song was handed to me on a silver platter." Everyone involved knew that what they were doing was going to be controversial especially since they were in the deep south, was especially subversive.

Prince and Elvis both, in my opinion very actively challenged the notion of musical genre. In the 85 MTV interview Prince very clearly addressed that he thought music should be color blind. Perhaps no other two artists achieved that colorblindness than Prince and Elvis.

The final area of similarity is the issue of religion in the public image of both artists. Both very openly expressed their spirituality through their music. What makes it most significant is they did that while subverting gender and sexuality expectations in their appearance and performances. If TV audiences were repulsed by Elvis' vulgar performances on Milton Berle and Ed Sullivan, what did it mean when he also performed "Peace in the Valley"? on national TV and released gospel music. It is one thing to be a "pervert" but to be a pervert and religious at the same time? Their heads must have been exploding. Kind of like Tipper Gore and co when they heard "Darling Nicki" which ends with the backmasking "Hello, how are you, I'm fine because I know the Lord is coming soon...."

I'm not writing to say that Elvis or Prince were the only two artists to ever to challenge these issues but just to point out that as artists they had more in common than many people might think. And I'm certainly not trying to give undue credit to Elvis for his role in music, I'm just trying to place him in context of his time.

Damn....this is a long post. Sorry.

[Edited 6/1/16 17:12pm]

hey kal, i knew you'd stop lurking on this one. I been through a couple different screenames since i last saw you. good post.

muleFunk said:

I will never disrespect Elvis and he wrote more songs than he was given credit for because he didn't know the bidness.

.

That's simply not true. Elvis did not write a song in his life. If you don't believe me, ask Elvis, who said that he wrote one line in 'Love Me Tender', which was his career's songwriting.

PeteSilas said:

Elvis was special for a lot of reasons going way past anything musical. His imagery, his stage act all revolutionized the music world and affected everyone including our guy Prince. He was good enough for Prince but not for you guys.

.

Okay, did you actually read my post?

ThePanther said:

PeteSilas said:

Elvis was special for a lot of reasons going way past anything musical. His imagery, his stage act all revolutionized the music world and affected everyone including our guy Prince. He was good enough for Prince but not for you guys.

.

Okay, did you actually read my post?

uh, i don't know, probably wasn't responding to you.

.

kalelvisj, fantastic post.

Cloreen said:

I love Elvis. I know his work back to front. I've read 20+ books on him, I listen to obscure Follow That Dream releases all the time... I made the trek to Graceland. From Australia. He means a lot to me. With all that in mind: He is nothing compared to Prince. He was a savant who had a beautiful way with performing, he understood music instinctively and everyone could relate to him. He made music relatable, brought different styles together. He wasn't a genius; not in the same way.

Elvis was a product of his time and even though he had some good songs, I feel like folks go overboard when it comes to his talents.

kalelvisj said:

Still feeling the loss of Prince deeply but I'm not surprised the original thread spawned a follow up thread.

Sorry in advance, this is going to be a long one...

There are some great (and often heated) old threads talking about Prince and Elvis, from the Elvis songs Prince covered (most surprising "Let me be your Teddy bear", which is awesome if you ever get a chance to hear it), the race issue, musical style issue, well damn there is a thread for just about every possible angle to discuss these two monumental artists at the same time.

I keep seeing the "apple and oranges" type comments and I think that Prince and Elvis, at their respective peaks, had more in common than a lot of modern audience members realize. These similarites are strongest in three important areas, gender/sexuality, race and religion.

One that often goes unexplored is how they played around with gender identity/sexuality. I think in most people's minds, 50's Elvis is seen in black and white. When, I think "in color" just how challenging he was to the norm becomes far more evident. He was wearing pink pants, lace shirts and blue eye shadow in the 50's for Christ's sake. How shocking that must have been for the audiences in the 50's. Probably given how conservative the world was at that time (you couldn't say pregnant on TV and married couples were depicted as sleeping in separate beds...) I think it would be safe to say that he was as or even more shocking to the 50's audience that Prince was to the 80's. Add his suggestive stage performances where he would often end shows saying "Ladies, I'll meet you back stage" it is not hard to imagine what a shock to the "sexual system" he really was dressed as a gay man, performing like a stripper and inviting young ladies backstage...No wonder the press and politicians of the day attacked Presley so savagely. Also no wonder K.D Lang called 50's Elvis "the true androgynous beauty."

Whe stylistically there are clear differences between Prince and Elvis' appearance there are definite similarities and more importantly similar impact on their audience.

The issue of Race is probably the most explored in the other threads but it is important to note that they were both seen as artists who ignored the social expectations of what race meant in music. People often bring up the dubious Sam Philips quote about finding a white man with the black feel to his music, but what is important to note is that when he was auditioning Elvis with back up from Scotty Moore and Bill Black, he didn't lead him in any particular direction. The song he presented to Elvis to record was a ballad, and it didn't work. They worked for hours on other ballads and while the group started working well together there was no magic. Elvis spontaneously broke into "That's All Right, Mama" during a break. According to Phillips himself he told Elvis "why have you been holding out on me all this time [...] and that first song was handed to me on a silver platter." Everyone involved knew that what they were doing was going to be controversial especially since they were in the deep south, was especially subversive.

Prince and Elvis both, in my opinion very actively challenged the notion of musical genre. In the 85 MTV interview Prince very clearly addressed that he thought music should be color blind. Perhaps no other two artists achieved that colorblindness than Prince and Elvis.

The final area of similarity is the issue of religion in the public image of both artists. Both very openly expressed their spirituality through their music. What makes it most significant is they did that while subverting gender and sexuality expectations in their appearance and performances. If TV audiences were repulsed by Elvis' vulgar performances on Milton Berle and Ed Sullivan, what did it mean when he also performed "Peace in the Valley"? on national TV and released gospel music. It is one thing to be a "pervert" but to be a pervert and religious at the same time? Their heads must have been exploding. Kind of like Tipper Gore and co when they heard "Darling Nicki" which ends with the backmasking "Hello, how are you, I'm fine because I know the Lord is coming soon...."

I'm not writing to say that Elvis or Prince were the only two artists to ever to challenge these issues but just to point out that as artists they had more in common than many people might think. And I'm certainly not trying to give undue credit to Elvis for his role in music, I'm just trying to place him in context of his time.

Damn....this is a long post. Sorry.

[Edited 6/1/16 17:12pm]

I feel like this notion of "colorblindness" is silly. I feel like comparing Elvis to Prince is strange since they come from completely different backgrounds and their music are on the opposite ends of the scale.

well both played fast and loose with the color line, there is no denying that. People forget but there were and still are rumours that elvis was black or "redbone" in the southern terminology. Prince used to play the same games with music and with his biography.

PeteSilas said:

well both played fast and loose with the color line, there is no denying that. People forget but there were and still are rumours that elvis was black or "redbone" in the southern terminology. Prince used to play the same games with music and with his biography.

Really?

And as far Prince pretending to be mixed, I think he has to do with being more commerically appealing and also struggling to come to terms with his blackness.

[Edited 6/2/16 17:42pm]

[Edited 6/2/16 17:55pm]

AbstractPoetic91 said:

PeteSilas said:

well both played fast and loose with the color line, there is no denying that. People forget but there were and still are rumours that elvis was black or "redbone" in the southern terminology. Prince used to play the same games with music and with his biography.

Really?

And as far Prince pretending to be mixed, I think he has to with being more commerically appealing and also struggling to come to terms with his blackness.

[Edited 6/2/16 17:42pm]

ya, i agree with that but that still goes with my premise that he was playing with the race line doesn't it? especially when it was so easy for the media to dispel of his mythmaking.

PeteSilas said:

AbstractPoetic91 said:

Really?

And as far Prince pretending to be mixed, I think he has to with being more commerically appealing and also struggling to come to terms with his blackness.

[Edited 6/2/16 17:42pm]

ya, i agree with that but that still goes with my premise that he was playing with the race line doesn't it? especially when it was so easy for the media to dispel of his mythmaking.

Yeah but that tapdancing around his race BS died by the time the 90s came around. And he also been called out on misleading the media about it.

When you really get down to it, that's pretty fucked up having to racially compromise yourself that way.

[Edited 6/2/16 17:56pm]

none of that has nothing to do with my point, both men were similar in how they crossed racial boundaries at whim. what you're saying is a different arguement and i hear you, but it's not the same arguement. Prince had racial ambivalence for a good part of his life, fortunately, unlike MJ he came back home.

PeteSilas said:

none of that has nothing to do with my point, both men were similar in how they crossed racial boundaries at whim. what you're saying is a different arguement and i hear you, but it's not the same arguement. Prince had racial ambivalence for a good part of his life, fortunately, unlike MJ he came back home.

Before I move on, I want to make something clear that Prince claiming to be mixed was literally some mess he did in the 80s, no other time, that ended once the 90s rolled in. As I said before, I don't believe either of them crossed racial lines, especially Elvis.

move on then.

PeteSilas said:

move on then.

I did. Bye.

kalelvisj said:

As far as the issue of being "colorblind" that is the word I believe Prince used in the interview in 85, so if he found it appropriate I will have to side with him. The crossing/fusing of genres is something both artists were known for during their life times and especially during the peak years of their success. I'm not trying to say that their music is alike but that they both performed music that authentically crossed the racial lines of their respective times. Yet, there are definitely times that Prince has showed his appreciation of Elvis in his vocals and stage mannerisms, costumes and even his stage design. And other than Sly, Elvis may be the performer that Prince covered the most songs by after he was an established star. Prince was pretty particular about what songs he would cover outside of snippets during improvisational sets and that he covered at least three songs by Elvis, to me, speaks volumes. I guess I could post a bunch of pics to make my case but I'm far too tired (lazy?) for that so I will just recommend people who are interested to the movie "jailhouse rock" and they can see for themselves. To be clear, I'm not trying to overstate Elvis' influence on Prince or music in general, but you don't have to dig too deep to find the connections.

I thought James Brown and Stevie Wonder were his influences.

AbstractPoetic91 said:

kalelvisj said:

AbstractPoetic91 said:

I thought James Brown and Stevie Wonder were his influences.

And Joni Mitchell, fleetwood Mac, Sam Cooke, led Zeppelin, MJ, and many others. Prince in an early interview said that one of the wonderful things about growing in Minneapolis was the variety of music that the radio played.

He did like Joni Mitchell, I forgot about that.