porkpie said:

yes the whole album uses live horns he was developing a new style where he would play guitar throughout the song and the horns would play over his guitar, then he would decide what parts would come through in the final mix. There is an interview somewhere with the horns dude (sorry forget his name) which explains more about it.

Dandroppedadime said:

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

Dandroppedadime said:

yes the whole album uses live horns he was developing a new style where he would play guitar throughout the song and the horns would play over his guitar, then he would decide what parts would come through in the final mix. There is an interview somewhere with the horns dude (sorry forget his name) which explains more about it.

Here's a link to that interview and article if you're interested porkpie: http://www.rollingstone.c...h-20160429

-

This process only refers to the orchestration on Baltimore and a number of unreleased songs we did in late 2015 and early 2016 and not how the horn tracks for HitnRun II were created with the Hornheads (2Y2D, Xtraloveable, Groovey Potential, When She Comes, Black Muse) which were mostly recorded in 2011-12

Wow! thanks for the info mrmoops!

Will those songs ever see the light of day?

Moops! Big props on the work on HNR2. I was just admiring the brilliance and the crispness of the arrangements and the horn sound on those tracks. The horns on Billy Jack Bitch and Come (title track), and all the stuff on New Power Soul and the Vault have always been my favorite horns on Prince albums, but the Big City horns is probably in my top 3 horn arrangements for P.

I gotta post quick I am working on a work project but I have my headphones I had seen the thread this morning and I made it a point to put HitnRun 2 in. This is a good album. I am starting to like this. I first that this was stuff from the vault and was really listening. Thanks to whoever started this. I'm going to pay more attention. Its jazzy, funky, horny, got organs, guitar solos-

Thanks for this thread

That's Ledisi on BIG CITY!!@@

Dandroppedadime said:

yes the whole album uses live horns he was developing a new style where he would play guitar throughout the song and the horns would play over his guitar, then he would decide what parts would come through in the final mix. There is an interview somewhere with the horns dude (sorry forget his name) which explains more about it.

Nowadays, when recording with digital audio software, basically every recorded audio is a sample. From the interview with the horn player you mention, I remember that Prince deliberately shifted the whole horn part several beats from the initial recorded position... that's sample editing!

If you like the horns, I recommend the Hornheads CDs.

.

https://www.discogs.com/a...-Hornheads

Dandroppedadime said:

yes the whole album uses live horns he was developing a new style where he would play guitar throughout the song and the horns would play over his guitar, then he would decide what parts would come through in the final mix. There is an interview somewhere with the horns dude (sorry forget his name) which explains more about it.

That ain't a new style for Prince. Recall some years ago when Mike B Nelson did an interview about the recording process with Prince (I think it specifically referenced "Billy Jack Bitch"). Prince made sure to respond via L41A that there was always a guide track in place for the Hornheadz to follow and MBN clarified his statement after.

Dandroppedadime said:

Wow! thanks for the info mrmoops!

Will those songs ever see the light of day?

-

who knows, it's out of my hands. I believe one of the coolest ones was for eryn Allen Kane, so maybe that has a chance.

lezama said:

Moops! Big props on the work on HNR2. I was just admiring the brilliance and the crispness of the arrangements and the horn sound on those tracks. The horns on Billy Jack Bitch and Come (title track), and all the stuff on New Power Soul and the Vault have always been my favorite horns on Prince albums, but the Big City horns is probably in my top 3 horn arrangements for P.

-

Thank you!

and for clarification I had a hand in everything you listed except Big City, which is an arrangement by Phil Lassiter. (and I agree it's killin', he's a very talented guy)

DiscoBallz said:

Dandroppedadime said:

yes the whole album uses live horns he was developing a new style where he would play guitar throughout the song and the horns would play over his guitar, then he would decide what parts would come through in the final mix. There is an interview somewhere with the horns dude (sorry forget his name) which explains more about it.

That ain't a new style for Prince. Recall some years ago when Mike B Nelson did an interview about the recording process with Prince (I think it specifically referenced "Billy Jack Bitch"). Prince made sure to respond via L41A that there was always a guide track in place for the Hornheadz to follow and MBN clarified his statement after.

Okay, there seems to be multiple topics regarding the horns getting conflated in this thread.

And it probably requires a fairly long answer, but I will try to clear some things up a little.

-

The idea of orchestrating a guitar solo is something that started with “Baltimore” and continued on 3 more tracks, each of which got much more adventurous. While the orchestrations were based on his guitar solos, he still gave me complete freedom on the producing and arranging of the orchestra sessions. To my knowledge, fully orchestrating his guitar solos (strings, woodwinds, brass) has never been done before. (yes, I've worked off synth guide tracks before, but this was very different)

-

I composed the horns on the outro of Billy Jack Bitch without any input from Prince. It is why I have a co-writing credit on that track, not just arranging. I wrote it for the Hornheads before BJB was recorded and he decided to have us record it on that track sometime after we had played it for him.

-

DiscoBallz refers to a disagreement about the term “arranging” that came up at one point (which had nothing to do with BJB), where P thought I meant I had come up with all the lines, but in fact I was only referring to having a hand in all the horn work on a particular project. And while that was true, I think it requires a more nuanced explanation.

-

The process of working on horn tracks with P varied greatly, changing over time as we got more familiar with each other. Early on, sessions were primarily done with him and the horn section sitting in the studio working out stuff with minor assists from me. “Symbol” album and “Come” are the best example of that process. After those 2 albums, he started trusting me much more, and would either give me a track with some guide horns to arrange, in which case I would give him different options of his parts along any ideas I had, or he’d give me a track with no guides and the freedom to do what I wanted. He would then use them as he saw fit in production.

-

regarding mine and the Hornheads work on HitnRun2 specifically...

-

Baltimore - I arranged horns and woodwinds, worked with Adi Yeshaya on the string arrangement and produced the horn and string sessions.

2Y2D - primarily arranged from his guide tracks and in the studio with him.

Xtraloveable - I followed the original synth horns, threw in a few extra licks along the way and at the end, and wrote the horn feature break (He asked me to write something like “Intermission”, another song I composed for the Hornheads, for that soli)

Groovy Potential - mine

When She Comes - mine

Black Muse - I did an arrangement, then when we were in the studio, he came in and added and changed things.

-

Please understand that whether there were guide tracks or not, there was always something uniquely Prince on every track that inspired me to create. I do recognize the enormous gift he gave me by allowing me to work on his music.

-MBN

[Edited 5/18/16 20:54pm]

[Edited 5/19/16 7:23am]

MrMoops said:

DiscoBallz said:

That ain't a new style for Prince. Recall some years ago when Mike B Nelson did an interview about the recording process with Prince (I think it specifically referenced "Billy Jack Bitch"). Prince made sure to respond via L41A that there was always a guide track in place for the Hornheadz to follow and MBN clarified his statement after.

Okay, there seems to be multiple topics regarding the horns getting conflated in this thread.

And it probably requires a fairly long answer, but I will try to clear some things up a little.

-

The idea of orchestrating a guitar solo is something that started with “Baltimore” and continued on 3 more tracks, each of which got much more adventurous. While the orchestrations were based on his guitar solos, he still gave me complete freedom on the producing and arranging of the orchestra sessions. To my knowledge, fully orchestrating his guitar solos (strings, woodwinds, brass) has never been done before. (yes, I've worked off synth guide tracks before, but this was very different)

-

I composed the horns on the outro of Billy Jack Bitch without any input from Prince. It is why I have a co-writing credit on that track, not just arranging. I wrote it for the Hornheads before BJB was recorded and he decided to have us record it on that track sometime after we had played it for him.

-

DiscoBallz refers to a disagreement about the term “arranging” that came up at one point (which had nothing to do with BJB), where P thought I meant I had come up with all the lines, but in fact I was only referring to having a hand in all the horn work on a particular project. And while that was true, I think it requires a more nuanced explanation.

-

The process of working on horn tracks with P varied greatly, changing over time as we got more familiar with each other. Early on, sessions were primarily done with him and the horn section sitting in the studio working out stuff with minor assists from me. “Symbol” album and “Come” are the best example of that process. After those 2 albums, he started trusting me much more, and would either give me a track with some guide horns to arrange, in which case I would give him different options of his parts along any ideas I had, or he’d give me a track with no guides and the freedom to do what I wanted. He would then use them as he saw fit in production.

-

regarding mine and the Hornheads work on HitnRun2 specifically...

-

Baltimore - I arranged horns and woodwinds, worked with Adi Yeshaya on the string arrangement and produced the horn and string sessions.

2Y2D - primarily arranged from his guide tracks and in the studio with him.

Xtraloveable - I followed the original synth horns, threw in a few extra licks along the way and at the end, and wrote the horn feature break (He asked me to write something like “Intermission”, another song I composed for the Hornheads, for that soli)

Groovy Potential - mine

When She Comes - mine

Black Muse - I did an arrangement, then when we were in the studio, he came in and added and changed things.

-

Please understand that whether there were guide tracks or not, there was always something uniquely Prince on ever track that inspired me to create. I do recognize the enormous gift he gave me by allowing me to work on his music.

-MBN

[Edited 5/18/16 20:54pm]

Thank you, very insightful. Did you always get a writing credit where you did more than the arrangement? You say "mine" for Groovey Potential and When She Comes, does that mean those songs are really a collaboration effort and you are actually a co-writer? I mean the horns on Groovey Potential are a huge part of what makes that song what it is.

MrMoops said:

MrMoops said:

DiscoBallz said:

That ain't a new style for Prince. Recall some years ago when Mike B Nelson did an interview about the recording process with Prince (I think it specifically referenced "Billy Jack Bitch"). Prince made sure to respond via L41A that there was always a guide track in place for the Hornheadz to follow and MBN clarified his statement after.

Okay, there seems to be multiple topics regarding the horns getting conflated in this thread.

And it probably requires a fairly long answer, but I will try to clear some things up a little.

-

The idea of orchestrating a guitar solo is something that started with “Baltimore” and continued on 3 more tracks, each of which got much more adventurous. While the orchestrations were based on his guitar solos, he still gave me complete freedom on the producing and arranging of the orchestra sessions. To my knowledge, fully orchestrating his guitar solos (strings, woodwinds, brass) has never been done before. (yes, I've worked off synth guide tracks before, but this was very different)

-

I composed the horns on the outro of Billy Jack Bitch without any input from Prince. It is why I have a co-writing credit on that track, not just arranging. I wrote it for the Hornheads before BJB was recorded and he decided to have us record it on that track sometime after we had played it for him.

-

DiscoBallz refers to a disagreement about the term “arranging” that came up at one point (which had nothing to do with BJB), where P thought I meant I had come up with all the lines, but in fact I was only referring to having a hand in all the horn work on a particular project. And while that was true, I think it requires a more nuanced explanation.

-

The process of working on horn tracks with P varied greatly, changing over time as we got more familiar with each other. Early on, sessions were primarily done with him and the horn section sitting in the studio working out stuff with minor assists from me. “Symbol” album and “Come” are the best example of that process. After those 2 albums, he started trusting me much more, and would either give me a track with some guide horns to arrange, in which case I would give him different options of his parts along any ideas I had, or he’d give me a track with no guides and the freedom to do what I wanted. He would then use them as he saw fit in production.

-

regarding mine and the Hornheads work on HitnRun2 specifically...

-

Baltimore - I arranged horns and woodwinds, worked with Adi Yeshaya on the string arrangement and produced the horn and string sessions.

2Y2D - primarily arranged from his guide tracks and in the studio with him.

Xtraloveable - I followed the original synth horns, threw in a few extra licks along the way and at the end, and wrote the horn feature break (He asked me to write something like “Intermission”, another song I composed for the Hornheads, for that soli)

Groovy Potential - mine

When She Comes - mine

Black Muse - I did an arrangement, then when we were in the studio, he came in and added and changed things.

-

Please understand that whether there were guide tracks or not, there was always something uniquely Prince on ever track that inspired me to create. I do recognize the enormous gift he gave me by allowing me to work on his music.

-MBN

[Edited 5/18/16 20:54pm]

Hi Michael, always loved the info you've shared here, thank you. I'm wondering if you can share something else? Do you have any idea how many tracks you worked on with Prince which have yet to see the light of day?

MrMoops said:

I composed the horns on the outro of Billy Jack Bitch without any input from Prince.

I remember the first time I heard it, I was expecting BJB to fade out or something and that outro caught me completely off guard. I was blown away, still love it today. Mad props.

Michael, I have had this curiosity in my head since 2012, maybe you could answer it with a simple yes/no. Prince started playing The Dance Electric back in 2012, with horns (like the version he did on Kimmy Kimmel on TV).

Did you work on any arrangements for a new studio version of that track? I always thought he re-recorded it in 2011/2012, just like what happened with Xtralovable...

Thanks a lot for any info

Marco81 said:

Michael, I have had this curiosity in my head since 2012, maybe you could answer it with a simple yes/no. Prince started playing The Dance Electric back in 2012, with horns (like the version he did on Kimmy Kimmel on TV).

Did you work on any arrangements for a new studio version of that track? I always thought he re-recorded it in 2011/2012, just like what happened with Xtralovable...

Thanks a lot for any info

-

no, I never work on that track in any way

TheEnglishGent said:

Hi Michael, always loved the info you've shared here, thank you. I'm wondering if you can share something else? Do you have any idea how many tracks you worked on with Prince which have yet to see the light of day?

-

I honestly don't know, but it's not a very large number because the Hornheads were only full time employees for a few years in the 90s, and that was spent mostly touring. After that, we would typically get called in when projects were more near completion. In the 90s, maybe 10-20 tracks, and in these last 5 years there are maybe another dozen.

calypsocrazy said:

MrMoops said:

I composed the horns on the outro of Billy Jack Bitch without any input from Prince.

I remember the first time I heard it, I was expecting BJB to fade out or something and that outro caught me completely off guard. I was blown away, still love it today. Mad props.

-

Thanks! If you've ever heard the bootleg, you know that the original recording went on a lot longer than that, and got pretty convoluted.

MrMoops said:

Marco81 said:

Michael, I have had this curiosity in my head since 2012, maybe you could answer it with a simple yes/no. Prince started playing The Dance Electric back in 2012, with horns (like the version he did on Kimmy Kimmel on TV).

Did you work on any arrangements for a new studio version of that track? I always thought he re-recorded it in 2011/2012, just like what happened with Xtralovable...

Thanks a lot for any info

-

no, I never work on that track in any way

Thanks as always Michael!

MrMoops said:

calypsocrazy said:

I remember the first time I heard it, I was expecting BJB to fade out or something and that outro caught me completely off guard. I was blown away, still love it today. Mad props.

-

Thanks! If you've ever heard the bootleg, you know that the original recording went on a lot longer than that, and got pretty convoluted.

You're welcome. Never heard the boot version, will try to track it down as soon as possible.

MrMoops said:

DiscoBallz said:

That ain't a new style for Prince. Recall some years ago when Mike B Nelson did an interview about the recording process with Prince (I think it specifically referenced "Billy Jack Bitch"). Prince made sure to respond via L41A that there was always a guide track in place for the Hornheadz to follow and MBN clarified his statement after.

Okay, there seems to be multiple topics regarding the horns getting conflated in this thread.

And it probably requires a fairly long answer, but I will try to clear some things up a little.

-

The idea of orchestrating a guitar solo is something that started with “Baltimore” and continued on 3 more tracks, each of which got much more adventurous. While the orchestrations were based on his guitar solos, he still gave me complete freedom on the producing and arranging of the orchestra sessions. To my knowledge, fully orchestrating his guitar solos (strings, woodwinds, brass) has never been done before. (yes, I've worked off synth guide tracks before, but this was very different)

-

I composed the horns on the outro of Billy Jack Bitch without any input from Prince. It is why I have a co-writing credit on that track, not just arranging. I wrote it for the Hornheads before BJB was recorded and he decided to have us record it on that track sometime after we had played it for him.

-

DiscoBallz refers to a disagreement about the term “arranging” that came up at one point (which had nothing to do with BJB), where P thought I meant I had come up with all the lines, but in fact I was only referring to having a hand in all the horn work on a particular project. And while that was true, I think it requires a more nuanced explanation.

-

The process of working on horn tracks with P varied greatly, changing over time as we got more familiar with each other. Early on, sessions were primarily done with him and the horn section sitting in the studio working out stuff with minor assists from me. “Symbol” album and “Come” are the best example of that process. After those 2 albums, he started trusting me much more, and would either give me a track with some guide horns to arrange, in which case I would give him different options of his parts along any ideas I had, or he’d give me a track with no guides and the freedom to do what I wanted. He would then use them as he saw fit in production.

-

regarding mine and the Hornheads work on HitnRun2 specifically...

-

Baltimore - I arranged horns and woodwinds, worked with Adi Yeshaya on the string arrangement and produced the horn and string sessions.

2Y2D - primarily arranged from his guide tracks and in the studio with him.

Xtraloveable - I followed the original synth horns, threw in a few extra licks along the way and at the end, and wrote the horn feature break (He asked me to write something like “Intermission”, another song I composed for the Hornheads, for that soli)

Groovy Potential - mine

When She Comes - mine

Black Muse - I did an arrangement, then when we were in the studio, he came in and added and changed things.

-

Please understand that whether there were guide tracks or not, there was always something uniquely Prince on ever track that inspired me to create. I do recognize the enormous gift he gave me by allowing me to work on his music.

-MBN

[Edited 5/18/16 20:54pm]

Thanks for all the informtion Moops! Your posts are always interesting.

I wasn't entirely sold on 'Baltimore' but loved the interplay between the guitar and the orchestration. I remember when I first heard the song, relasing that it was slipping between the two and really enjoying. It would have been great to hear more songs with this experimentation - and it sounds like Prince knew he was on to something with it!

Michael, could you please describe Pangea and Shades of Umber?

paulludvig said:

Michael, could you please describe Pangea and Shades of Umber?

If you track down the Montreux 2013 bootlegs you can have a listen to Shades of Umber.

[Edited 5/19/16 7:01am]

TheEnglishGent said:

paulludvig said:

Michael, could you please describe Pangea and Shades of Umber?

If you track down the Montreux 2013 bootlegs you can have a listen to Shades of Umber.

[Edited 5/19/16 7:01am]

Thanks! I like the version from Montreux (although the playing is a bit sloppy). I wonder if the studio version has the same arrangement.