So these re-issues that are out (For You), and coming out soon (Prince): My questions are these:

1. Are they only 180 gram vinyl (and your opinion on 180 gram vs anything else)
2. are they remastered as well?
3. Anything else distinctive about them?

The collector in me wants to get them, and keep them sealed, since I have all the vinyl already. The thrifty one in me says "Eh, skip it", and the cross examiner in me says "Find out more".

.

Thoughts? Amazon doesn't seem to offer much in the way of information with all this. Thanks.

TrivialPursuit said:

So these re-issues that are out (For You), and coming out soon (Prince): My questions are these:

1. Are they only 180 gram vinyl (and your opinion on 180 gram vs anything else)
2. are they remastered as well?
3. Anything else distinctive about them?

The collector in me wants to get them, and keep them sealed, since I have all the vinyl already. The thrifty one in me says "Eh, skip it", and the cross examiner in me says "Find out more".

.

Thoughts? Amazon doesn't seem to offer much in the way of information with all this. Thanks.

I can only speak as to the 180 gram question... 180 gram is considered "audiophile quality" in many circles. However, the weight of the vinyl has very little to do with the sound quality of the record. The mastering etc is more important. My understanding is that the association between the 180 gram weight and high sound quality comes from the tie to the blue note re-releases as well as Mobile fidelity sound labs "original master recording" releases. These two "series" of releases are well known to have paid close attention to all of the details from beginning to end. Thus leading to a very high sound quality. If I were you, I'd look into the remastering process before re-buying them even if you are keeping them sealed, they may not end up being that collectible if the process behind producing them is sub par. Here is a (I hope) helpful article.

http://www.vnylst.com/stories/2015/11/8/180-gram-vinyl-is-it-worth-the-weight

I got both, both are standard 140g, I've no idea whether they are remastered or not. There is no indication on the covers to suggest they are/not. The only distinction between these new ones and old is the NPG/WB on the spine.

As for the 180g debate, I care not a jot, since I can find no solid info on whether they are better than standard or not. To me they feel better, thats it.

TheDigitalGardener said:

I got both, both are standard 140g, I've no idea whether they are remastered or not. There is no indication on the covers to suggest they are/not. The only distinction between these new ones and old is the NPG/WB on the spine.

As for the 180g debate, I care not a jot, since I can find no solid info on whether they are better than standard or not. To me they feel better, thats it.

You're right. Most of the time, it's just a sales gimmick now. They do feel better to handle, but it's rarely worth it.

Don't think they remastered according to this chap who already got his hands on a copy

http://blog.vinylgourmet....d.html?m=1

180 Gram Vinyl... What are the benefits? Heavyweight Vinyl Records Explained




The words "180 Gram Vinyl" have been the cause for many misunderstandings and debate among the audiophile and vinyl records community. Unnecessarily so, I would say, there is nothing magical about heavyweight vinyl, and certainly some myths float over those shiny 180g stickers on the record covers, but that doesn't mean there are no benefits from pressing 180g or even 200g vinyl LP's.

Vinyl record weight has very little to do with the sound quality of the music engraved in the grooves. The technical standard by which grooves are modulated and cut on the record surface is exactly the same on all vinyl records regardless of weight grade, the dimensions of the grooves can only be cut within the scope of that standard, and we are talking about extremely small dimensions at the micro-metric scale with such tiny variations that any vinyl weight above 100 Gram (probably even less) provides the necessary physical support for pressing sound grooves according to the standard industry specifications.

In fact, the mastering (or cut) to vinyl doesn't change or vary in any way depending on the weight or thickness of the vinyl discs that will be pressed, and there is no specific mastering for 140g, 160g, 180g or 200g vinyl... Because of the way the vinyl grooves are formed, the relative depth that exceeds the technical standard, has limited relevance since the point of contact of the stylus tip in the groove (basically a triangle shape with one of the vertices pointing down) does not allow the needle to read any deeper, anything below that point is ignored as if it didn't exist... the relative vertical position of the groove in the disc profile depth is also something that has no impact on the stylus performance. In order to make groove depth beyond the current standard make a difference, or to make the vertical position of the groove in relation to disc thickness have some kind of impact, it would require a complete change of groove geometry, such as the standard angles and other characteristics, that is, it would require a new different vinyl cutting standard and different cartridge design, and so on...

Sound quality on vinyl, as well as any other audio format, depends mostly on the type and quality of the source that was used for mastering, and ultimately on the quality of the mastering process itself as well as equipment used to execute the mastering / cut of the lacquer.




That being said, why are heavyweight vinyl records, above 140 Gram weight grade, usually considered better? What are the real benefits of heavyweight vinyl? Why is it so well regarded by the industry and by most consumers? Here are a few possible answers to those questions:

- The disc, the object itself, is more robust and durable. A 180 Gram LP is not only more satisfying to handle and place on the turntable, but it also offers more resistance to a more aggressive manipulation, adverse storage conditions and other possible abuses that can be inflicted over the years or decades. I'm not referring to groove wear from being in contact with the stylus, that is just the same for any vinyl weight grade, but still there is an obvious advantage to the robustness and durability of the vinyl disc as a physical object, offering more resistance to breaking or to becoming warped, and other potential damage.

- There are mechanical advantages from using heavier vinyl on your turntable, basically it provides a more stable platform for your stylus and cantilever suspension, and probably better isolation from unwanted vibration that can actually cause some sound degradation at this micro-level where the pickup is working. This effect is not much different, from a technical standpoint, from changing the platter material or increasing the platter mass on your turntable, or using a different platter mat... you can see the heavier vinyl record as a type of physical upgrade to your turntable, that will make a difference similar to other upgrades.

- Thicker (taller) vinyl profile might change the sound characteristics of your cartridge, for the better or worse, by changing the VTA (Vertical Tracking Alignment) of the tonearm in relation to the record surface, this can be audible or not, and it can change sound to the better or worse depending on how your turntable is setup.

- Historically, there is an implied quality standard associated with 180 Gram vinyl, or 200 Gram vinyl. When these heavyweight pressings first appeared, they represented a higher quality standard being applied to the entire mastering and manufacturing process, so in the end it usually resulted in much better sound but not only because of the heavier vinyl, it was just like today a matter of using better sources (Original Master Tapes) and improved mastering techniques.

- Some labels, namely Classic Records with their Quiex SVP (Super Vinyl Profile), and Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab with their UHQR (Ultra High Quality Record) that was manufactured in Japan by JVC, have developed pressing techniques using 180g and 200g heavyweight vinyl where the dies used for pressing were designed in a way to make the record surface more flat than regular record pressings. The uneven surface effect where the disc thickness varies from outer edge to center point is a well known issue studied by many engineers and entities related to audio mastering and vinyl manufacturing, the benefits of a more perfectly flat surface for the reading of the grooves are real and undeniable, however the relation of this factor with total vinyl weight and thickness is dependent of the use of dies created with such design, and that might vary from label to label and between different pressing plants.




For these reasons, heavyweight 180 Gram and 200 Gram vinyl pressings are usually better quality products associated with limited editions, audiophile editions, and better releases in general. Unfortunately this is not always the reality of all heavyweight pressings, in fact some of the worst record labels making terrible vinyl today are pressing 180 Gram LP's from poor mastering jobs using low quality (mostly digital) sources. Pressing bad records on 180 Gram vinyl doesn't make them good records, even less so does it make them audiophile records... not at all! So what is happening with all these lower quality 180 Gram pressings flooding the market today? These are some of the possible answers for that:

- As part of the vinyl market resurgence that has been going on since 2005 (and growing steady), most labels felt the need to make the vinyl record more attractive for consumers, as if they were justifying the vinyl release (or reissue) with the heavyweight grade and that Quality Standard perception that I mentioned before. There's nothing wrong with this, on the contrary it shows a genuine effort to push forward the vinyl comeback by offering higher quality standard that consumers value and enjoy.

- The somewhat unexpected growth of vinyl sales, and that effort to make vinyl releases more appealing by making 180 Gram pressings, resulted in many pressing plants being much more specialized in pressing heavyweight vinyl records for the last 10 years or so, actually the 180 Gram pressing has now become the standard pressing for most factories, meaning that cost is no longer a determining factor when a label chooses to press on 180 Gram vinyl. It is more expensive because it uses more raw material, but the perceived added value by consumers more than compensates the marginally higher investment.

- Since cost, and technical expertise, are no longer determining factors, this has opened the door for almost any label, good or bad, big or small, to press heavyweight vinyl records. With the added bonus that "180 Gram Vinyl" is usually perceived by consumers as higher quality, specifically higher sound quality.




So, where does that leave us? Well, right at where we started... 180 Gram Vinyl is not magic, and it's really not a solution to any major problem. It's additional value, and can represent higher quality production standards, just as well as it can be used by labels with extremely poor quality standards. It is very important to focus your attention on what really counts: Who mastered the record? Where was it mastered? What sources were used for the mastering process? Where was it pressed? And only then, secondary factors such as Vinyl Weight Grade become additional value and a good reason to buy a vinyl LP.


Don't let the 180 Gram sticker alone put you off buying a great LP... but also, don't let it alone be the major deciding factor when buying a record. It's not magic, but it's not to be dismissed as "gimmick" because there are in fact many benefits to heavyweight vinyl pressings when that is part of a bigger picture of quality production that includes quality mastering from the best sources to achieve a result that is a better product in all areas.

Great post.... I always ignore whether or not a new record is 180gm.... it doesn't make a single bit of difference to me... I have bought 180gm records that sound great and ones that sound like shit... just as I have bought standard weight records that both sound great and like shit..... it really is all in the mastering and the source....

I bought Aretha Franklin's Soul 69 LP new, the Four Men With Beards 180gm pressing, with a huge sticker about going 'back to black' and all that crap.... I couldn't understand why I wasn't enjoying it.... the brass on it drove me crazy, it was annoying, I would never listen to it the whole way through.

Then I found a second hand mid-70s copy for about £10..... it was not 180gm.... it sounded wonderful, rich, warm, soulful... like the record it was supposed to be!

The Four Men with Beards edition was unfortunately a victim of the loudness wars, it had had all of the richness and subtletly bashed out of it, leaving it sounding brittle, tinny and soulless.... criminal that this has happened to so many great records in their new pressings....

I'm still wary about buying 'new' records.... they often sound like crap... but it is getting better slowly.

Mostly I only buy new vinyl if it's a new album, otherwise I'll always buy an older/original pressing of an album, and they're almost always much cheaper, somtimes half the price, for something that is infinitely more listenable....

Incidentally, I bought the new issue of For You on vinyl, and the recent issue of Controversy... on both the cover art is reduced in quality to the originals/early pressings I have... and the sound, when compared is no better, and possibly worse/very slightly muddier to my ears than on the originals.

I don't believe they have been remastered, simply repressed. The vinyl masters were pretty good in the first place, unlike the CD masters of these records, so I believe they have just gone back to them and repressed them.....

I won't be buying any more unless they do something crazy like issuing albums that never made it to vinyl the first time round.... how I would love to have Newpower Soul (yes, I like that album), Emancipation, News, Musicology, Chaos And Disorder etc on vinyl! Unlikely but we'll see.... they're reissuing all kinds of obscure crap these days in the new vinyl boom, so you never know!

I've been thinking about buying the vinyl reissues of For You and Prince,but it's disappointing to hear that these haven't been remastered.Might as well stick with the original vinyl copies that I have.

I have it. It is remastered. Original 1978 vinyl mastering by Bernie Grundman at A&M, reissue 2016 vinyl mastering by Kevin Gray at Cohearant Audio.

This information from https://www.discogs.com/Prince-For-You/release/8433126 also matches my physical vinyl:

• Barcode: 0 93624 92209 4
• Matrix / Runout (Side A): 14943 1A [Stamped] 1-553364-A KG@CA [Etched]
• Matrix / Runout (Side B): 14943 1B [Stamped] 1-553364-B KG@CA [Etched]

Mystery solved.

steakfinger said:

I have it. It is remastered. Original 1978 vinyl mastering by Bernie Grundman at A&M, reissue 2016 vinyl mastering by Kevin Gray at Cohearant Audio.

This information from https://www.discogs.com/Prince-For-You/release/8433126 also matches my physical vinyl:

• Barcode: 0 93624 92209 4
• Matrix / Runout (Side A): 14943 1A [Stamped] 1-553364-A KG@CA [Etched]
• Matrix / Runout (Side B): 14943 1B [Stamped] 1-553364-B KG@CA [Etched]

Mystery solved.

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I kind of feel the same way about 180gram. It seems more gimicky than anything else - but some of those notes from an article above are good ones.

.

As far as remastered, I did finally find on Discogs (why I never looked there to begin with is a brain fart moment) that they are noted as remastered, and the differenced in the packaging to indicate as such. I ordered For You from Discogs Saturday night.

.

To Steakfinger: How is the quality of the recordings in general? Rimshottbob says he sees no big difference, and thinks the newer one is muddier. Your thoughts?

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To RimShottbob: Funny you mentioned 4 Men With Beards: I was debating on getting the Maggot Brain purple vinyl they put out. But with your assesment of the Aretha Franklin story, I might just opt for an original pressing.

TrivialPursuit said:

steakfinger said:

I have it. It is remastered. Original 1978 vinyl mastering by Bernie Grundman at A&M, reissue 2016 vinyl mastering by Kevin Gray at Cohearant Audio.

This information from https://www.discogs.com/Prince-For-You/release/8433126 also matches my physical vinyl:

• Barcode: 0 93624 92209 4
• Matrix / Runout (Side A): 14943 1A [Stamped] 1-553364-A KG@CA [Etched]
• Matrix / Runout (Side B): 14943 1B [Stamped] 1-553364-B KG@CA [Etched]

Mystery solved.

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I kind of feel the same way about 180gram. It seems more gimicky than anything else - but some of those notes from an article above are good ones.

.

As far as remastered, I did finally find on Discogs (why I never looked there to begin with is a brain fart moment) that they are noted as remastered, and the differenced in the packaging to indicate as such. I ordered For You from Discogs Saturday night.

.

To Steakfinger: How is the quality of the recordings in general? Rimshottbob says he sees no big difference, and thinks the newer one is muddier. Your thoughts?

.

To RimShottbob: Funny you mentioned 4 Men With Beards: I was debating on getting the Maggot Brain purple vinyl they put out. But with your assesment of the Aretha Franklin story, I might just opt for an original pressing.

It's hard for me to say because I've never heard the original on vinyl. Out of all the used records shops I've seen throughout my life, I don't ever think I've seen an original for sale.

In my opinion it sounds pretty good. I notice that in headphones I can FAINTLY hear a guitar (an electric, I think) playing chords behind all the voices in the song For You. It sounds to me like headphone bleed as he was recording his vocals. That was a big surprise to me which I've never heard on the CD before. I don't know about muddier since I don't know what the original vinyl sounds like, but it's 100% better-sounding than the CD. I bought and downloaded the hi res audio version from HDTracks some time ago (no longer available), and it sounds much better than the CD, though I didn't notice the faint guitar behind the acapella For You track.