-

Over on the "Joint 2 Joint" thread there was something Bonatoc said that struck a nerve with me:

bonatoc said:

One of its qualities is of course preceding "The Holy River".
Salvation after sin, Prince's obsessive theme.

-

THIS.....this is the main reason I find Prince so compelling: the inner conflict of the sinful vs. the spiritual, the profane vs. the profound. No one else encapsulates and expresses this theme to the degree that Prince does. And when he censors himself, bans songs from his repertoire and removes albums from his catalog, it only serves to dilute the impact of the salvation. In fact, it feels as though there's no reason for salvation at all and therefore no reason to experience the totality of his music.....or more precisely, his legacy seems rather pointless without the sinful side and temptation. In this case, “Holy River” without “Joint 2 Joint” would come across like bland, run of the mill Christian rock. But instead, coming after J2J, it has a cleansing effect that provides a welcome counterbalance and is far more interesting in this context.

-

This is also why it’s important to not only include “The Black Album” in the catalog (I’m still waiting, Tidal), but to also include it chronologically before “Lovesexy,” rather than after “Come.” Lovesexy serves to purify the murky, filthy stain of sin left behind from the brutal assault of TBA and is therefore far more rewarding when heard in that context.

-

Frank Zappa use to say that there are no bad words, only bad intent. Does Prince really believe that God doesn’t know his intent when he sings “what the duck” (what the fuck) or going HAM (Hard as a Motherfucker)? I would guess that an omnipotent master and creator of the universe would most certainly know. The only real difference between the censored and uncensored approach is that the censored version sounds utterly ridiculous and diminishes the impact of his art while simultaneously damaging his legacy. A lyricist or poet censoring words is like a painter removing colors from the palette....it limits the ability to explore their gift and render potent, breathtaking, timeless art. As an example, tracks like "Head" and "Erotic City" are two of his most potent, effective songs and, with regard to eternal consumption, they are two of his most timeless.

-

I’m not particularly religious, but I would say that God has endowed Prince with the unparalleled ability to lyrically and musically express the nature of sin and salvation through his art. Let’s hope that he doesn’t continue to squander this precious gift and undermine his legacy through unnecessary, cringe-inducing self-censorship.

-

TheBoneRanger said:

-

Over on the "Joint 2 Joint" thread there was something Bonatoc said that struck a nerve with me:

bonatoc said:

One of its qualities is of course preceding "The Holy River".
Salvation after sin, Prince's obsessive theme.

-

THIS.....this is the main reason I find Prince so compelling: the inner conflict of the sinful vs. the spiritual, the profane vs. the profound. No one else encapsulates and expresses this theme to the degree that Prince does.

You're forgetting Marvin Gaye.

BoraBora said:

TheBoneRanger said:

-

THIS.....this is the main reason I find Prince so compelling: the inner conflict of the sinful vs. the spiritual, the profane vs. the profound. No one else encapsulates and expresses this theme to the degree that Prince does.

You're forgetting Marvin Gaye.

-

Well.......same goes for him too then.

-

TheBoneRanger said:

-

Over on the "Joint 2 Joint" thread there was something Bonatoc said that struck a nerve with me:

bonatoc said:

One of its qualities is of course preceding "The Holy River".
Salvation after sin, Prince's obsessive theme.

-

THIS.....this is the main reason I find Prince so compelling: the inner conflict of the sinful vs. the spiritual, the profane vs. the profound. No one else encapsulates and expresses this theme to the degree that Prince does. And when he censors himself, bans songs from his repertoire and removes albums from his catalog, it only serves to dilute the impact of the salvation. In fact, it feels as though there's no reason for salvation at all and therefore no reason to experience the totality of his music.....or more precisely, his legacy seems rather pointless without the sinful side and temptation. In this case, “Holy River” without “Joint 2 Joint” would come across like bland, run of the mill Christian rock. But instead, coming after J2J, it has a cleansing effect that provides a welcome counterbalance and is far more interesting in this context.

-

This is also why it’s important to not only include “The Black Album” in the catalog (I’m still waiting, Tidal), but to also include it chronologically before “Lovesexy,” rather than after “Come.” Lovesexy serves to purify the murky, filthy stain of sin left behind from the brutal assault of TBA and is therefore far more rewarding when heard in that context.

-

Frank Zappa use to say that there are no bad words, only bad intent. Does Prince really believe that God doesn’t know his intent when he sings “what the duck” (what the fuck) or going HAM (Hard as a Motherfucker)? I would guess that an omnipotent master and creator of the universe would most certainly know. The only real difference between the censored and uncensored approach is that the censored version sounds utterly ridiculous and diminishes the impact of his art while simultaneously damaging his legacy. A lyricist or poet censoring words is like a painter removing colors from the palette....it limits the ability to explore their gift and render potent, breathtaking, timeless art. As an example, tracks like "Head" and "Erotic City" are two of his most potent, effective songs and, with regard to eternal consumption, they are two of his most timeless.

-

I’m not particularly religious, but I would say that God has endowed Prince with the unparalleled ability to lyrically and musically express the nature of sin and salvation through his art. Let’s hope that he doesn’t continue to squander this precious gift and undermine his legacy through unnecessary, cringe-inducing self-censorship.

-

Well said!

TheBoneRanger said:

-

Well.......same goes for him too then.

-

Yes and no.


I can agree with you that in P musical work there is some kind of "inner conflict" (TBA/Lovesexy story is an obvious demonstration of it), but I think it is more controlled (and sometime calculated) than for Marvin.


Marvin was somewhat victim himself of the "inner conflict" you're talking about, and he canalized all of his interior battle in his music. You can smell the conflict inside, you can feel the struggle.


With P I can't fully feel it. I can think of it, but not "live" it.


Anyway, just my opinion.

I don't think it was a huge conflict in the 80s. I think that was more designed.

I think since Larry he has had real conflict. And I think it affects a lot of his life and career.

BoraBora said:

TheBoneRanger said:

-

Well.......same goes for him too then.

-

Yes and no.


I can agree with you that in P musical work there is some kind of "inner conflict" (TBA/Lovesexy story is an obvious demonstration of it), but I think it is more controlled (and sometime calculated) than for Marvin.


Marvin was somewhat victim himself of the "inner conflict" you're talking about, and he canalized all of his interior battle in his music. You can smell the conflict inside, you can feel the struggle.


With P I can't fully feel it. I can think of it, but not "live" it.


Anyway, just my opinion.

Hold it…..you mean you couldn’t feel P’s inner conflict with all that sweat and pubic hair oozing out of his bikini bottoms?

blacknote said:

Hold it…..you mean you couldn’t feel P’s inner conflict with all that sweat and pubic hair oozing out of his bikini bottoms?

djThunderfunk said:

Well said!

-

Thanks!

blacknote said:

Hold it…..you mean you couldn’t feel P’s inner conflict with all that sweat and pubic hair oozing out of his bikini bottoms?

-

Oh man, that's foul!!!

BoraBora said:

Yes and no.


I can agree with you that in P musical work there is some kind of "inner conflict" (TBA/Lovesexy story is an obvious demonstration of it), but I think it is more controlled (and sometime calculated) than for Marvin.


Marvin was somewhat victim himself of the "inner conflict" you're talking about, and he canalized all of his interior battle in his music. You can smell the conflict inside, you can feel the struggle.


With P I can't fully feel it. I can think of it, but not "live" it.


Anyway, just my opinion.

-

Well, the inner conflict with Prince is mostly internalized and the struggle itself is rarely written about except in cases like possibly "Temptation" from ATWIAD. It's more like the Gemini effect where one side momentarily seizes control and that's the direction a song takes....the song becomes either sinful or spiritual in nature, even though he might not be directly singing about either.

-

I don't know why TGE and TRC aren't on Tidal and hadn't noticed TBA absence, but don't mind as one listen of the latter was enough.

-

I disagree completely that not using old lyrics 'limits the ability to explore art'. Firstly, if the original first version is out there, the art exists. I don't know 'Head and EC' but I doubt they came out recently. However, if you're still talking about them, then they must be timeless right? Secondly, how on earth could a handful of lyrics diminish a lifetime of music? A faded Renoir, Van Gogh, Salvador Dali, Gaudi or Rembrandt wouldn't degenerate any of their ideas into anything any less beautiful, just as a few filtered words in no way damages a legacy. There is also by the way (as far as I hear it) nothing censored when Prince explores the sexuality theme in his music.

-

I don't hear the inner conflict of the 'sinful vs. the spiritual' either at all. To use the word 'sinful' to describe any Prince music is almost profane. Unveiled curiosity, spiritual indecision, yearning for experience of the higher self, and/or collective consciousness, yes have been part of a progressive theme throughout the years. But not in conflict with the sexuality theme, (whereas in life one theme generally impose judgment on the other). It's exactly the dualism in these two unlikely sister themes of life that he fuses into one that is the essence of Prince, (as you said encapsulates). But they are not in a spectrum of conflict and why should they be? If white represents spirituality, and black sexuality, the former is a complete reflection of light, the latter, complete absorption. Neither black or white are in conflict with each other , they only exist because of light or its absence. Why is there a need for 'salvation' when both exist, mutually as strong as each other, and are both just part of the same thing anyway? I honestly don't see how a few words of a a few songs could affect this meaningful ambiguity of these two themes. This underlying harmony is what the music is about conceptually, not just some words from an old song or two.

-

I don't really know Joint to Joint (as I don't like it) and yes I can agree that the follow up track The Holy River is like red and blue on opposite sides of the rainbow, musically and lyrically. In Temptation, yes he definitely sounds like he is undergoing some kind of salvation but maybe it was more for dramatic effect than out of sadism, because it's a pretty tough song to end strongly. Good track I think. I am almost certain that if he considered sexuality sinful or profane we would never have received 'Revelation' and many others beforehand.

-Apologies for my disagreeable post!

BoraBora said:

TheBoneRanger said:

-

Well.......same goes for him too then.

-

Yes and no.


I can agree with you that in P musical work there is some kind of "inner conflict" (TBA/Lovesexy story is an obvious demonstration of it), but I think it is more controlled (and sometime calculated) than for Marvin.


Marvin was somewhat victim himself of the "inner conflict" you're talking about, and he canalized all of his interior battle in his music. You can smell the conflict inside, you can feel the struggle.


With P I can't fully feel it. I can think of it, but not "live" it.


Anyway, just my opinion.

Thank you so much, very interesting thread. And i agree completely with you about the differences between Marvin and Prince, there's so little i know about Marvin but as far as i know, his conflict was a very heavy burden for him; as for Prince it seems that he has handled that conflict very well, so far. His duality between his sexual side and the spiritual one is quite interesting.

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think it was a huge conflict in the 80s. I think that was more designed.

I think since Larry he has had real conflict. And I think it affects a lot of his life and career.

Disagree. Prince has had inner conflict long before he even met LG. I don't think this is yet another thing we can blame him for. His early life was challenging, filled with conflicting messages and little guidance according to his own words as well as what his sister has written.

Prince also has his Sun in Gemini, Moon in Pisces, Asc. in Scorpio, Mars in Aries in house five plus Pluto conjunct his midheaven. One of the most powerful configurations I've ever seen in one chart but a bunch of conflict as well.

Hell, it's a wonder he doesn't spontaneously combust.

blacknote said:

BoraBora said:

Yes and no.


I can agree with you that in P musical work there is some kind of "inner conflict" (TBA/Lovesexy story is an obvious demonstration of it), but I think it is more controlled (and sometime calculated) than for Marvin.


Marvin was somewhat victim himself of the "inner conflict" you're talking about, and he canalized all of his interior battle in his music. You can smell the conflict inside, you can feel the struggle.


With P I can't fully feel it. I can think of it, but not "live" it.


Anyway, just my opinion.

Hold it…..you mean you couldn’t feel P’s inner conflict with all that sweat and pubic hair oozing out of his bikini bottoms?

Ewww.....

214 said:

BoraBora said:

Yes and no.


I can agree with you that in P musical work there is some kind of "inner conflict" (TBA/Lovesexy story is an obvious demonstration of it), but I think it is more controlled (and sometime calculated) than for Marvin.


Marvin was somewhat victim himself of the "inner conflict" you're talking about, and he canalized all of his interior battle in his music. You can smell the conflict inside, you can feel the struggle.


With P I can't fully feel it. I can think of it, but not "live" it.


Anyway, just my opinion.

Thank you so much, very interesting thread. And i agree completely with you about the differences between Marvin and Prince, there's so little i know about Marvin but as far as i know, his conflict was a very heavy burden for him; as for Prince it seems that he has handled that conflict very well, so far. His duality between his sexual side and the spiritual one is quite interesting.

I agree.


I believe that Marvin was not nearly as disciplined as Prince for one thing, so he dealt with his conflicting enegeries very differently. Prince is also more mindful of who and what he surrounds himself with.

babynoz said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think it was a huge conflict in the 80s. I think that was more designed.

I think since Larry he has had real conflict. And I think it affects a lot of his life and career.

Disagree. Prince has had inner conflict long before he even met LG. I don't think this is yet another thing we can blame him for. His early life was challenging, filled with conflicting messages and little guidance according to his own words as well as what his sister has written.

Prince also has his Sun in Gemini, Moon in Pisces, Asc. in Scorpio, Mars in Aries in house five plus Pluto conjunct his midheaven. One of the most powerful configurations I've ever seen in one chart but a bunch of conflict as well.

Hell, it's a wonder he doesn't spontaneously combust.

Well yes everyone has conflict.

But I think what we saw in the 1980s was by design/promotion.
I've read interviews where Prince is pretty comfortable with God and Sex/Sinful.

We really only saw some kind of 'conflict' lived out in the music on the PR tour with the God/Temptation dialogue. Then he put it on the end of Temptation. Parade was almost devoid of it. Maybe that is why so many feel it is so wonderfully breezy and fresh.

I don't hear/read any real conflict/struggle in Prince's music mostly until possibly Lovesexy.

I'm not blaming Larry specifically, but what he represents. Which defiinately enhanced a conflict. to the point it's more visible in his relations, performances etc

Bohemian67 said:

I don't know why TGE and TRC aren't on Tidal and hadn't noticed TBA absence, but don't mind as one listen of the latter was enough.

-

I disagree completely that not using old lyrics 'limits the ability to explore art'. Firstly, if the original first version is out there, the art exists. I don't know 'Head and EC' but I doubt they came out recently. However, if you're still talking about them, then they must be timeless right? Secondly, how on earth could a handful of lyrics diminish a lifetime of music? A faded Renoir, Van Gogh, Salvador Dali, Gaudi or Rembrandt wouldn't degenerate any of their ideas into anything any less beautiful, just as a few filtered words in no way damages a legacy. There is also by the way (as far as I hear it) nothing censored when Prince explores the sexuality theme in his music.

-

I don't hear the inner conflict of the 'sinful vs. the spiritual' either at all. To use the word 'sinful' to describe any Prince music is almost profane. Unveiled curiosity, spiritual indecision, yearning for experience of the higher self, and/or collective consciousness, yes have been part of a progressive theme throughout the years. But not in conflict with the sexuality theme, (whereas in life one theme generally impose judgment on the other). It's exactly the dualism in these two unlikely sister themes of life that he fuses into one that is the essence of Prince, (as you said encapsulates). But they are not in a spectrum of conflict and why should they be? If white represents spirituality, and black sexuality, the former is a complete reflection of light, the latter, complete absorption. Neither black or white are in conflict with each other , they only exist because of light or its absence. Why is there a need for 'salvation' when both exist, mutually as strong as each other, and are both just part of the same thing anyway? I honestly don't see how a few words of a a few songs could affect this meaningful ambiguity of these two themes. This underlying harmony is what the music is about conceptually, not just some words from an old song or two.

-

I don't really know Joint to Joint (as I don't like it) and yes I can agree that the follow up track The Holy River is like red and blue on opposite sides of the rainbow, musically and lyrically. In Temptation, yes he definitely sounds like he is undergoing some kind of salvation but maybe it was more for dramatic effect than out of sadism, because it's a pretty tough song to end strongly. Good track I think. I am almost certain that if he considered sexuality sinful or profane we would never have received 'Revelation' and many others beforehand.

-Apologies for my disagreeable post!

Good post.

I too don't believe he had much conflict outside of the regular conflict that comes from being human and putting our lives together. In the 70s/80s.

He said that he does not use curse words because curse words call up anger. Which is only minimally true. And even Jesus said 'Be angry and sin not' . He said he doesn't like to write from an angry place anymore. And recently at an aftershow he told the dj not to play Head. So there is obviously struggle and conflict there.

The only time throughout the night that Walker received anything but positive feedback from Prince's camp came when he dropped one of the man-of-the-moment's own hits, Head, which Walker was quickly asked to turn off.

"He gave a requirement that he didn’t want any tracks played with any profanity in it, so I knew that before the gig started and then I was thinking, which track of his do I want to play and that was one of my favourite tracks of his," he says.

"...And then he sent his minder up who said, ‘Take it off’."

His choices of music he will perform. He won't play Head but he will play Cream. He won't play Darling Nikki but he will play Little Red Corvette (which is basically the same subject)
and to name a few more Let's Work,

Also in the 2009/2010 interview where he 'praised' Muslim culture:
"It's fun being in Islamic countries, to know there's only one religion. There's order. You wear a burqa. There's no choice,” he told British newspaper, The Guardian, “People are happy with that.”

Life back home depresses me, just another form of slavery
The cost of freedom is anything but free

There ain't nobody got no chains on me

Lavaux
Lavaux

this says a lot to me that Prince of now, is conflicted. He wants/needs things to be black in white.

I even remember how liberated he seemed when he started the Welcome 2 Europe tour, showing skin, tearing open his shirts, wearing lace clothing. When he got back to America he was covered up again.

There's something on the tip of my tongue
Got a taste for sin -Cause & Effect(Prince)

OldFriends4Sale said:

babynoz said:

Disagree. Prince has had inner conflict long before he even met LG. I don't think this is yet another thing we can blame him for. His early life was challenging, filled with conflicting messages and little guidance according to his own words as well as what his sister has written.

Prince also has his Sun in Gemini, Moon in Pisces, Asc. in Scorpio, Mars in Aries in house five plus Pluto conjunct his midheaven. One of the most powerful configurations I've ever seen in one chart but a bunch of conflict as well.

Hell, it's a wonder he doesn't spontaneously combust.

Well yes everyone has conflict.

But I think what we saw in the 1980s was by design/promotion.
I've read interviews where Prince is pretty comfortable with God and Sex/Sinful.

We really only saw some kind of 'conflict' lived out in the music on the PR tour with the God/Temptation dialogue. Then he put it on the end of Temptation. Parade was almost devoid of it. Maybe that is why so many feel it is so wonderfully breezy and fresh.

I don't hear/read any real conflict/struggle in Prince's music mostly until possibly Lovesexy.

I'm not blaming Larry specifically, but what he represents. Which defiinately enhanced a conflict. to the point it's more visible in his relations, performances etc

Everyone does not have the same level of conflict though and not everybody handles it the same. I don't know but I suspect that P has dealt with higher than average conflict both internal and external and he has done very well with his challenges IMO.

We can't define Prince solely through his 80's persona though. There was Prince before the 80s also. We also can't go only by what is obvious and in plain sight such as the God/Temptation performance. That's the easy way but sometimes what is not said can be just as telling.

It's all in knowing how to read the more subtle clues.

LG represents a particular influence that P felt was needed in his life to fill a certain void.

I don't believe that his so called "self censorship" is a problem because many people change over time and I think it's wrong to try to deny Prince the right to transform himself as he sees fit.

Whoever he becomes in the process is either interesting to people or not but nobody has the right to make him into what they want him to be as though they own him. He's a free man.

babynoz said:

I don't believe that his so called "self censorship" is a problem because many people change over time and I think it's wrong to try to deny Prince the right to transform himself as he sees fit.

Whoever he becomes in the process is either interesting to people or not but nobody has the right to make him into what they want him to be as though they own him. He's a free man.

Like it or not, yes he has changed.

Right Babynoz,

7 vs 6

It is said we have to answer to the Lord in the Afterworld, not sure how The Lord would feel about bad lyrics to single folks and out in public. But I assume one could sing Head and Erotic City to his w ife with no problem?

I like the music in both songs, I can jam just to the music and I don't mind pg versions, like change fu_k in Erotic City to funk or whatever, heehee

listen to speech at hypno paradise geramany 98 show

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think it was a huge conflict in the 80s. I think that was more designed.

I think since Larry he has had real conflict. And I think it affects a lot of his life and career.

I agree.

Astasheiks said:

Right Babynoz,

7 vs 6

It is said we have to answer to the Lord in the Afterworld, not sure how The Lord would feel about bad lyrics to single folks and out in public. But I assume one could sing Head and Erotic City to his w ife with no problem?

I like the music in both songs, I can jam just to the music and I don't mind pg versions, like change fu_k in Erotic City to funk or whatever, heehee

yep. doesn't bother me one bit.

Ever heard of Saturday Night and Sunday Morning?

The theme is ultra-common, that's why we have Little Richards, Al Green, Marvin Gaye, plenty of others and country singers too, who have songs about enjoying the "sinful" (Saturday night sexy boozy indulgences) and redemption (the next morning, the Day of the Lord).

So it's very common, but it's all about how you well express it.

RobotDevil said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't think it was a huge conflict in the 80s. I think that was more designed.

I think since Larry he has had real conflict. And I think it affects a lot of his life and career.

I agree.

I do too--and I think it's an interesting insight. Not that I don't think there was conflict in the 80's--but he was able to write about it. His worldview allowed him the freedom to depict things more fully. He felt there was a way to bring the carnal and spiritual together and to discuss the apparent conflict between them, sometimes denying it, sometimes (as in the Lovesexy shows) largely accepting its validity in order to tell a story about rebirth and finding salvation. Now, though, he's unable to fully discuss the conflict because he can't honestly represent those things that his current worldview sees as sinful. He can't show someone being saved, because he can't really let himself depict what they need to be saved from. He's lost that storyline, which he did so many times back in the day. At least, he's lost the way he used to tell it, and he hasn't really come up with a substitute that's compelling.

On the issue of substituting innocuous words for profanity. He can, of course, create valid art without the old "profane" words--but he can't do it with this sort of substitution. He can't do it by writing "we don't give a duck what you got on" or saying HAM or the ridiculousness that's been Days of Wild the last several years--not only does God (if there is one) know what he means, but everyone else does too. It's dishonest and laughable, and undermines the idea that he'll say the truth when it matters. If he thinks there's something wrong with the intent, then skip the song (as he often does) or the sentiment entirely. If the expression of the idea is still based on the profanity lying underneath the word "flippin'", then you might as well say the real word, because that's what everyone hears. Or, find a different structure and a different means of expression. But be honest. If you're cussing, cuss. If you're not, then don't.

Aerogram said:

Ever heard of Saturday Night and Sunday Morning?

The theme is ultra-common, that's why we have Little Richards, Al Green, Marvin Gaye, plenty of others and country singers too, who have songs about enjoying the "sinful" (Saturday night sexy boozy indulgences) and redemption (the next morning, the Day of the Lord).

So it's very common, but it's all about how you well express it.

Good observation. We should not pretend that this is something unique to Prince. Now that you reminded us I recall how common it actually is.

I think that country singers express it quite well due to the tendency toward story telling in country music.

Folk music too.

babynoz said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Well yes everyone has conflict.

But I think what we saw in the 1980s was by design/promotion.
I've read interviews where Prince is pretty comfortable with God and Sex/Sinful.

We really only saw some kind of 'conflict' lived out in the music on the PR tour with the God/Temptation dialogue. Then he put it on the end of Temptation. Parade was almost devoid of it. Maybe that is why so many feel it is so wonderfully breezy and fresh.

I don't hear/read any real conflict/struggle in Prince's music mostly until possibly Lovesexy.

I'm not blaming Larry specifically, but what he represents. Which defiinately enhanced a conflict. to the point it's more visible in his relations, performances etc

Everyone does not have the same level of conflict though and not everybody handles it the same. I don't know but I suspect that P has dealt with higher than average conflict both internal and external and he has done very well with his challenges IMO.

We can't define Prince solely through his 80's persona though. There was Prince before the 80s also. We also can't go only by what is obvious and in plain sight such as the God/Temptation performance. That's the easy way but sometimes what is not said can be just as telling.

It's all in knowing how to read the more subtle clues.

LG represents a particular influence that P felt was needed in his life to fill a certain void.

of course every has conflict on different levels. BUT every has conflict. Or they are socialpaths.

Higher than average conflict in what way?

I wasn't defining him solely through the 80s. I said that Prince of the 80s the Sex vs God complex everyone always tried to highlight, I believe was a design of art, not an actual conflict. He's given some cool 85 interviews that showed he had it leveled out pretty well his beliefs. I think after the breakup of his 'community he wrestled with a lot more artistically about God & ____ and expressed it in that 88 period. The whole Lovesexy period and rebirth and such. New Powers, We Got the Power, Dance with the Devil etc

In another post I showed other areas in the 2000s that showed what I think is more outward expressions of an inner conflict.

EddieC said:

I do too--and I think it's an interesting insight. Not that I don't think there was conflict in the 80's--but he was able to write about it. His worldview allowed him the freedom to depict things more fully. He felt there was a way to bring the carnal and spiritual together and to discuss the apparent conflict between them, sometimes denying it, sometimes (as in the Lovesexy shows) largely accepting its validity in order to tell a story about rebirth and finding salvation. Now, though, he's unable to fully discuss the conflict because he can't honestly represent those things that his current worldview sees as sinful. He can't show someone being saved, because he can't really let himself depict what they need to be saved from. He's lost that storyline, which he did so many times back in the day. At least, he's lost the way he used to tell it, and he hasn't really come up with a substitute that's compelling.

On the issue of substituting innocuous words for profanity. He can, of course, create valid art without the old "profane" words--but he can't do it with this sort of substitution. He can't do it by writing "we don't give a duck what you got on" or saying HAM or the ridiculousness that's been Days of Wild the last several years--not only does God (if there is one) know what he means, but everyone else does too. It's dishonest and laughable, and undermines the idea that he'll say the truth when it matters. If he thinks there's something wrong with the intent, then skip the song (as he often does) or the sentiment entirely. If the expression of the idea is still based on the profanity lying underneath the word "flippin'", then you might as well say the real word, because that's what everyone hears. Or, find a different structure and a different means of expression. But be honest. If you're cussing, cuss. If you're not, then don't.

-

Agreed.