Claims that band member cowrote songs sometimes come from the band members themselves. Lisa for example claims to have cowritten The Stick. But look what she bases that claim on: She came up with a verbal frase that "sparked" an idea. It's basically nothing!

oh give it up. She came up witha the idea that sparked the song and then cowrote it

paulludvig said:

Claims that band member cowrote songs sometimes come from the band members themselves. Lisa for example claims to have cowritten The Stick. But look what she bases that claim on: She came up with a verbal frase that "sparked" an idea. It's basically nothing!

paulludvig said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I've never read anyone suggest Screams of Passion is an example of Prince & the Revolution writing a song together...
But they are a part of the creative flow and results...

They were in the room with Prince, if that's what you mean.

Riiiighhht they were just watching him

People on both sides are losing their minds....lol

It's well known that Lisa and Fink helped out with some of the synth phrasing on "...Stick..."From time to time Prince utilized grooves from jam sessions and built songs around them....

But more often than not, Prince's rep as a lone wolf producer/songwriter was well earned....

Yep. A song like "Computer Blue" came about from jam sessions....So that part shouldn't be taken away from the few times Prince turned into an open collaborator....

But that other 90 percent or so that made Prince a legend during that crazy '80s run? It's all true....

The same dude that utilized a musical phrasing from Lisa or Jesse Johnson to make a song is also the same guy that routinely walked into a studio alone or with a musician he would conduct (think Dez on Little Red Corvette) and delivered some mind numbing shit....

I think the reason some people are so steadfastly going hard at any notion of Prince having to depend on collaborators for some of his best work is because this site has become littered with PRINCE AIN'T SHIT talk...lol

I don't blame 'em....

[Edited 11/20/15 10:28am]

TrevorAyer said:

How bout a list of tunes we know p had help on Note these are often stand out tracks In a large room Power fantastic The stick Computer blue Do me baby Dirty mind Head Softnwet Dance electric Jungle love Kiss Scandelous 17 days Mountains Money dont matter Diamondsnpearls What else???

Around the World in a Day America the Ladder Let's Go Crazy Take Me With U Purple Rain Sometimes It Snows In April Girls & Boys Head Next Time Wipe the Lipstick Off Your Collar Strange Relationships Jack U Off Starfish & Coffee

I don't think anyone from The Revolution would say that the band was a 'collective'. They were a great band, and they left their mark on Prince, musically... I think Wendy and Lisa did a lot of work finishing arrangements for Prince in the studio, and there were long form jams thet Prince lifted and made into songs. They were a band that collaborated. They deserve credit for their collaborations. Period.

I think it's obvious that Prince's relationship with the band it was probably the last time Prince had people in his band whom he didn't require to be complete yes-men.

OldFriends4Sale said:

TrevorAyer said:

funksterr said:

Aerogram said:

Prince helped a lot of people and they contributed too -- after being chosen, drilled and inspired.

That's all you to say. I don't get why some Prince fans can't give credit where it's due to others along the way.

What you don't get is that people get what Prince was trying to do with credit -- he gave false credit for his own work to build his protégé acts and took it for his own act. Morris Day got to front a band for giving up Party Up, that kind of thing. Sheila El is another example of someone getting the credit -- credit was used as a marketing tool to boost the act's credentials.

More importantly, without Prince's drive few of those musicians would have achieved a career of their own. Everyone has/had a respectable career but besides Flytetime production, the protégés didn't fare that well on their own. Wendy and Lisa did some good work but were not commercially successful. Jessy Johnson almost pulled it off but it's obvious he was riding on the Minnie Sound so it ended when that sound got old while Prince kept moving.

I do wish Prince had been squarer in terms of copyrights but then again the matter amounts to crumbs. Let's say Do Me Baby is given to Andre Cymone, what now? Party Up to Morris? The few instances confirm the rule that whatever anyone contributed, Prince contributed many times more and they were out there saying those tracks were theirs when it was mostly Prince -- so it went both ways.

paulludvig said:

Aerogram said:

funksterr said:

That's all you to say. I don't get why some Prince fans can't give credit where it's due to others along the way.

What you don't get is that people get what Prince was trying to do with credit -- he gave false credit for his own work to build his protégé acts and took it for his own act. Morris Day got to front a band for giving up Party Up, that kind of thing. Sheila El is another example of someone getting the credit -- credit was used as a marketing tool to boost the act's credentials.

More importantly, without Prince's drive few of those musicians would have achieved a career of their own. Everyone has/had a respectable career but besides Flytetime production, the protégés didn't fare that well on their own. Wendy and Lisa did some good work but were not commercially successful. Jessy Johnson almost pulled it off but it's obvious he was riding on the Minnie Sound so it ended when that sound got old while Prince kept moving.

I do wish Prince had been squarer in terms of copyrights but then again the matter amounts to crumbs. Let's say Do Me Baby is given to Andre Cymone, what now? Party Up to Morris? The few instances confirm the rule that whatever anyone contributed, Prince contributed many times more and they were out there saying those tracks were theirs when it was mostly Prince -- so it went both ways.

I have never heard of Prince saying he gave anyone 'false' credit. I think Sheila, Pete and Wendy and Lisa have said they don't know why they are credited the way they are some things and not on others. But I think the whole false crediting notion really only applies to some Sheila E albums.

If Prince were to be 'fair' with copyrights then Morris and/or Jesse share almost all of The Time songs with him to some degree, along with some Vanity 6, and 1999 material.

TrevorAyer said:

paulludvig said:

What help? Please specify.

Cowriting

Paulludvig doesn't like the revolution much and dislikes Wendy n Lisa even more

TrevorAyer said:

funksterr said:

Aerogram said:

What you don't get is that people get what Prince was trying to do with credit -- he gave false credit for his own work to build his protégé acts and took it for his own act. Morris Day got to front a band for giving up Party Up, that kind of thing. Sheila El is another example of someone getting the credit -- credit was used as a marketing tool to boost the act's credentials.

More importantly, without Prince's drive few of those musicians would have achieved a career of their own. Everyone has/had a respectable career but besides Flytetime production, the protégés didn't fare that well on their own. Wendy and Lisa did some good work but were not commercially successful. Jessy Johnson almost pulled it off but it's obvious he was riding on the Minnie Sound so it ended when that sound got old while Prince kept moving.

I do wish Prince had been squarer in terms of copyrights but then again the matter amounts to crumbs. Let's say Do Me Baby is given to Andre Cymone, what now? Party Up to Morris? The few instances confirm the rule that whatever anyone contributed, Prince contributed many times more and they were out there saying those tracks were theirs when it was mostly Prince -- so it went both ways.

I have never heard of Prince saying he gave anyone 'false' credit. I think Sheila, Pete and Wendy and Lisa have said they don't know why they are credited the way they are some things and not on others. But I think the whole false crediting notion really only applies to some Sheila E albums.

If Prince were to be 'fair' with copyrights then Morris and/or Jesse share almost all of The Time songs with him to some degree, along with some Vanity 6, and 1999 material.

This ^^^^ is that good trolling....

murph said:

funksterr said:

I have never heard of Prince saying he gave anyone 'false' credit. I think Sheila, Pete and Wendy and Lisa have said they don't know why they are credited the way they are some things and not on others. But I think the whole false crediting notion really only applies to some Sheila E albums.

If Prince were to be 'fair' with copyrights then Morris and/or Jesse share almost all of The Time songs with him to some degree, along with some Vanity 6, and 1999 material.

This ^^^^ is that good trolling....

Everytime someone reads something that doesn't jibe with a Prince biography they read, they break out the trolling label.

TrevorAyer said:

So it boosts a proteges cred if prince gives them songwriting credit when its undeserved ... And that is all fair in "marketing" but u don't think they marketed prince by promoting him undeservedly as a one man band doing it all himself? And prince would never be as successful without the huge label machine and band behind him all the way .. For you minus softnwet is what p solo had to offer

This is the usual reductive revisionism that goes on with some Orgers, along the lines of "the Revolution is the only thing that made Prince great and without them, he wasn't that good."

It's demonstrably bonkers to dismiss the fact he was working like a madman to create those records, not just his, but others who got to shine routinely through his own work, credited to them. Yeah, he did incorporate ideas and hand over whole songs, but this is standard bandleading -- a musician working with you extensively is likely to come up with some great ideas, and Prince incorporated it into his act, but he also gave many of these people acts of their own, albeit with his music and often with him doing everything except singing lead.

So I too celebrate the contributions of so many great musicians over the years but you have to understand Prince associates did get something out of letting him take credit for some songs to maintain his (largerly accurate) one man band reputation. In exchange to got to bask in one of the greatest media events of the last century. Some of them also got to star in a classic rock movie that is so relevant to what we're discussing it's eeric.

Obviously, "Uptown" was a marketing idea. In pop music, it's all about selling yourself, and yeah they had a plan. It may not even be Prince that did not want to give credit, there was a mighty "machine" behind him you think WB wanted their one man band to give credit left and right? I doubt it.

Prince was himself an up and coming artist, and upon hitting the big time with 1999, he conceived of a movie where some of his collaborators got to shine. That's on top of all the music he did for them. So they contributed ideas and sometimes whole songs, and we are all grateful for them, but they did not get a bad deal considering the premum exposure they received.

exactly what i say all the time. people give the revolution WAY TOO MUCH credit. even the released stuff is mostly Prince with contributions here and there. let that nostalgia go.

Aerogram said:

TrevorAyer said:

So it boosts a proteges cred if prince gives them songwriting credit when its undeserved ... And that is all fair in "marketing" but u don't think they marketed prince by promoting him undeservedly as a one man band doing it all himself? And prince would never be as successful without the huge label machine and band behind him all the way .. For you minus softnwet is what p solo had to offer

This is the usual reductive revisionism that goes on with some Orgers, along the lines of "the Revolution is the only thing that made Prince great and without them, he wasn't that good."

It's demonstrably bonkers to dismiss the fact he was working like a madman to create those records, not just his, but others who got to shine routinely through his own work, credited to them. Yeah, he did incorporate ideas and hand over whole songs, but this is standard bandleading -- a musician working with you extensively is likely to come up with some great ideas, and Prince incorporated it into his act, but he also gave many of these people acts of their own, albeit with his music and often with him doing everything except singing lead.

So I too celebrate the contributions of so many great musicians over the years but you have to understand Prince associates did get something out of letting him take credit for some songs to maintain his (largerly accurate) one man band reputation. In exchange to got to bask in one of the greatest media events of the last century. Some of them also got to star in a classic rock movie that is so relevant to what we're discussing it's eeric.

Obviously, "Uptown" was a marketing idea. In pop music, it's all about selling yourself, and yeah they had a plan. It may not even be Prince that did not want to give credit, there was a mighty "machine" behind him you think WB wanted their one man band to give credit left and right? I doubt it.

Prince was himself an up and coming artist, and upon hitting the big time with 1999, he conceived of a movie where some of his collaborators got to shine. That's on top of all the music he did for them. So they contributed ideas and sometimes whole songs, and we are all grateful for them, but they did not get a bad deal considering the premum exposure they received.

Actually the image, spotlighting the band and such was from 1978 when they all went into characters of sorts. Before he had an idea of a movie what was happening on stage was a story in itself. Once the Time Vanity 6 Sheila E etc came uptown the story was able to expand. Which is why he built a foundation during the 1980-1988 years that is a legacy.

.
I've said it many times before that Prince was like the sun and the band/proteges etc were like planets/moons reflecting his vision. I remember Bobby Z saying after he first met Prince and they go to know each other, he said this was an artist he could devote his whole career to.
.
With a little tweeking on Prince's part, we could have gotten much more out of those years. Vanity Jimmy Jam Terry Lewis & MOnte would have been in Purple Rain, and the PR tour would have been even so much bigger. As Prince said at the 2008 Coachella festival when on stage with Morris Jerome & Sheila E "this is how the Purple Rain tour was supposed to be"

SoulAlive said:

"Wonderful Ass" is such a cool song! I love it

It is. I think the closest song I can connect the feel to is 17 Days... but the rhymning and color playfullness of the lyrics reveal so much.

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

A common misunderstanding is that Dream Factory would have had a band-oriented sound but the (not final) last known config contained lots of solo Prince tracks, that ended-up on SOTT in the end. There were also a lot of solo Prince songs on the 3 Revolution albums. I think W&L's background vocals, with their unique harmonies, give this impression: because people hear W&L they feel it's a Revolution track but it wasn't always the case, they would add vocals and that's it. Not to say Dream Factory would have been SOTT: Prince would have kept more tracks with the girls and there may have been a couple of band recordings. Not to say either that the band, and particularly the girls, had zero influence: they had a certain influence and W&L added a certain trademark sound to P's tracks, but P's music was always mostly P's music. All My dreams and Wonderful Ass, though containing a certain level of involvement by W&L, were -as far as we know- Prince compositions and -again as far as we know- primarily feature Prince alone with the girls adding vocals and (at least for sure on WA) guitar and keys, and even though W&L reworked WA (and made it a much better track) in 86, they mostly re-edited it more than changing it significantly.

In the end The Revolution rarely worked, as u say, "as a collective". In most cases Prince would compose a song, record most of it, and ask certain bandmembers to add overdubs or rearrange/remix it a bit. Another case is songs that were born/developped during rehearsals and occasionaly contained strong input by a bandmember or another, but Prince wasd still the leading force as both a composer and arranger. This is not the same as a band composing songs together and working on its arrangement on a democratic level. Prince And The Revolution was never a democratic unit, they were people hired by Prince to do what he told them to do and he would unltimately decide which of their contributions and ideas to keep or not.

Now I know lots of people will come with conterexamples and say The Revolution was responsible for the glory of the 83-86 era, but this is not the impression I got from the books I've read and past bandmembers interviews.

from my understanding of things read from the people in the recording studio etc A lot of music was worked out with Prince and the band like the Screams of Passion rehearsal. And then Prince took stuff and made it into a song. So think that 'rehearsal all night long' session working out sounds and songs was very important to the glory of the 83-86 yrs
.
And of course he had the songs he did all on his own.

.

I mean up until recently we all thought Prince played everything on the Time albums. But to find out that Morris played drums on a lot of the tracks, Jesse played guitar on some songs and drums on If the Kid Can't Make You Come

After Miko left he repeatedly mentioned in interviews how he noticed how licks and ideas he came up with during rehearsald and jams ended up on songs, yet he received no credit. He complained but Prince dismissed him, and thus Miko stopped adding his own touches.

And there's similar stories from others just like that. Candy Dulfer told about how Prince recorded her warming up, tunign her instrument and how sometimes those things ended up on songs without her knowledge. Lianne La Havas said in interviews how she discovered that Prince taped conversations and that they ended up on songs.

I can already hear the staunch Prince defenders dismiss these things as minor embellishments to songs, but I disagree: those are the kind of things that might spark the idea for an improvement, or a radically different take.

Just listen to his output when Revolution and original NPG-members were around, and compare that with his post '96 output.

That should you tell you a lot.

funksterr said:

murph said:

This ^^^^ is that good trolling....

Everytime someone reads something that doesn't jibe with a Prince biography they read, they break out the trolling label.

No u glib troll....I'm labeling u that because I've interviewed many of the people that u r talking about....And let's just say u have no idea what u r talking about...I've actually stated in this very thread that Prince at times would utilize some of the ideas that formed during jam sessions with his musicians and hired hands. But as usual u turn your inner troll all the way up to 11 in order to appear like u r putting those crazy, delusional Prince fans in their place....

And on the real, your rep proceeds u, homie....U r a bomb thrower on this site....lol....I'm just going by your history....

[Edited 11/21/15 4:39am]

OldFriends4Sale said:

Aerogram said:

This is the usual reductive revisionism that goes on with some Orgers, along the lines of "the Revolution is the only thing that made Prince great and without them, he wasn't that good."

It's demonstrably bonkers to dismiss the fact he was working like a madman to create those records, not just his, but others who got to shine routinely through his own work, credited to them. Yeah, he did incorporate ideas and hand over whole songs, but this is standard bandleading -- a musician working with you extensively is likely to come up with some great ideas, and Prince incorporated it into his act, but he also gave many of these people acts of their own, albeit with his music and often with him doing everything except singing lead.

So I too celebrate the contributions of so many great musicians over the years but you have to understand Prince associates did get something out of letting him take credit for some songs to maintain his (largerly accurate) one man band reputation. In exchange to got to bask in one of the greatest media events of the last century. Some of them also got to star in a classic rock movie that is so relevant to what we're discussing it's eeric.

Obviously, "Uptown" was a marketing idea. In pop music, it's all about selling yourself, and yeah they had a plan. It may not even be Prince that did not want to give credit, there was a mighty "machine" behind him you think WB wanted their one man band to give credit left and right? I doubt it.

Prince was himself an up and coming artist, and upon hitting the big time with 1999, he conceived of a movie where some of his collaborators got to shine. That's on top of all the music he did for them. So they contributed ideas and sometimes whole songs, and we are all grateful for them, but they did not get a bad deal considering the premum exposure they received.

Actually the image, spotlighting the band and such was from 1978 when they all went into characters of sorts. Before he had an idea of a movie what was happening on stage was a story in itself. Once the Time Vanity 6 Sheila E etc came uptown the story was able to expand. Which is why he built a foundation during the 1980-1988 years that is a legacy.

.
I've said it many times before that Prince was like the sun and the band/proteges etc were like planets/moons reflecting his vision. I remember Bobby Z saying after he first met Prince and they go to know each other, he said this was an artist he could devote his whole career to.
.
With a little tweeking on Prince's part, we could have gotten much more out of those years. Vanity Jimmy Jam Terry Lewis & MOnte would have been in Purple Rain, and the PR tour would have been even so much bigger. As Prince said at the 2008 Coachella festival when on stage with Morris Jerome & Sheila E "this is how the Purple Rain tour was supposed to be"

Thank you for the reminder it doesn't change my views on these matters. It's so easy to forget that everyone was young and hungry and that Prince was only a minor act who himself had to answer to a label who wanted him to match their marketed image.

Pentacle said:

Just listen to his output when Revolution and original NPG-members were around, and compare that with his post '96 output.

That should you tell you a lot.

Yes, it tells me he was on top of his game then and in his prime.

murph said:

funksterr said:

Everytime someone reads something that doesn't jibe with a Prince biography they read, they break out the trolling label.

No u glib troll....I'm labeling u that because I've interviewed many of the people that u r talking about....And let's just say u have no idea what u r talking about...I've actually stated in this very thread that Prince at times would utilize some of the ideas that formed during jam sessions with his musicians and hired hands. But as usual u turn your inner troll all the way up to 11 in order to appear like u r putting those crazy, delusional Prince fans in their place....

And on the real, your rep proceeds u, homie....U r a bomb thrower on this site....lol....I'm just going by your history....

[Edited 11/21/15 4:39am]

Why are you talking like YOU are just sooo important? I did not say ANYTHING even slightly controversial and you start throwing insults around and acting like you are in the MJ BEAT IT video. 'homie'

'I've stated that blah, blah, blah' as though your, apparantley bullshit interviews, are the singular FACTUAL authority. Even the people who were there at the time don't know EVERYTHING about what other people did. Prince himself wrote in the liner notes of Crystal Ball that HE can't remember who did what on some songs. Add to that the bullshit, niceties, and hidden agendas that sometimes comes with how people present an issue publicly in an interview, versus how it really went down behind closed doors and you still haven't said anything at all worth a damn.

I believe Jesse Johnson. I believe Andre Cymone. I believe Morris Day. I believe Denice Matthews. I believe Dez Dickerson. I believe Lisa Coleman. They all credit Prince for what he did and admit that they also did things too. Maybe not as much as Prince, but still things that proved to be significant. And, no I'm not talking 'jam sessions' only, which even that is significant and can result in credit and ownership. I'm talking whole songs that were sometimes appropriated and finished according to Prince's vission, in a good and positive way. It takes nothing from Prince, when fans love on his often overlooked co-writers and collaborators for what they did, too.

People in the industry have gotten far more than they got while contributing far less and sometimes nothing.

Did anybody see where Prince is trademarking the name 'Vanity 6'? I mean, he wanted the band to be called 'Vagina 6', amiright? Do you think it would be appropriate for the originator of the name 'Vanity', Denice Matthews, to get part of that ownership, since it was her idea?