One thing that shouldn't be overlooked when it comes to comparing Prince and Springsteen is that all these years later, Bruce is still playing with the same band. There is a cohesiveness there that, regardless of how good he is, Prince just can't match. How could he? Bruce is playing with people he's known for years. They are like a family. Prince doesn't have that. There is far too much chopping and changing of band members. I wonder how Prince's career would have gone if The Revolution stayed together? Maybe if he was surrounded by people of a similar age, his songs would be a bit more mature, lyrically and musically.

jdcxc said:

KingSausage said:

Given the amount of acclaim Bruce has received throughout his career, your statement was ridiculous. That's why I'm disagreeing with it. Neither Bruce nor Prince could keep up with a truly tight jazz band. Prince needs to keep it simplistic and light. He's not a jazz player.

Tell that to Miles.

Strange though that that Miles/Prince jazz album never happened...

EmmaMcG said:

Disagree strongly with that concept. Every great musician needs change to keep the creative juices flowing. James Brown, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Jimi Hendrix, etc. have all played with a diversity of people who have brought many styles and ideas to the table.

Again, my point is that Springsteen's music is not about pushing new creative MUSICAL directions. He puts lyrics in front of simple traditional sounds.

Pentacle said:

How do you know? Miles recorded and played a lot of Prince material. Only the Vault knows.

jdcxc said:

Those musicians you mentioned surrounded themselves with other musicians of proven quality. Prince doesn't. Some line ups of the NPG were good, unfortunately they came at a time when Prince was doing more hip hop orientated music so the quality of the actual musicianship suffered. Also, none of the guys you mentioned would ever have people like Josh and Hannah hanging around. It would never happen. I'm not saying I think Prince should have kept to just one band since the early 80's (though it certainly wouldn't be a disaster if he did) the point I'm making is that The E Street Band are all great musicians who've known Springsteen for years. They know what's required of themselves and are capable of doing it. Some of Prince's bands only last a year or two before they're replaced. And I think Prince's music has suffered because of that. Especially his live shows which have become far too predictable.

jdcxc said:

Again, my point is that Springsteen's music is not about pushing new creative MUSICAL directions. He puts lyrics in front of simple traditional sounds.

Sure, but it's the end result that counts. You may like it or you may not like it, fine.

I'm not a big Bruce fan, but I can hear he's written some good to great songs this century.
Prince has written Revelation and maybe 5 other reasonably good songs.

Now I know that there are a lot of orgers who like to kid themselves and say that Prince still has it and blablabla, but I always like to quote Darth Vader: "Search your feelings. You know it to be true."

He probably 'has' it once a year. And then elects to keep the result in the vault.

Pentacle said:

jdcxc said:

Again, my point is that Springsteen's music is not about pushing new creative MUSICAL directions. He puts lyrics in front of simple traditional sounds.

Sure, but it's the end result that counts. You may like it or you may not like it, fine.

I'm not a big Bruce fan, but I can hear he's written some good to great songs this century.
Prince has written Revelation and maybe 5 other reasonably good songs.

Now I know that there are a lot of orgers who like to kid themselves and say that Prince still has it and blablabla, but I always like to quote Darth Vader: "Search your feelings. You know it to be true."

He probably 'has' it once a year. And then elects to keep the result in the vault.

Even the Pope is a little less dogmatic than you are.

Search your soul you know it's true.

Aerogram said:

Even the Pope is a little less dogmatic than you are.

Search your soul you know it's true.

I liked my quote better. Let me paraphrase Star Wars this time:

"But I really love Prince's output over the last twenty years."

"Well then you are lost!"

All I'm saying is: don't lower your musical standards,

just because Prince has.

Guys, guys, only a Ritabot deals in absolutes.

KingSausage said:

Guys, guys, only a Ritabot deals in absolutes.

we all want to feel an awakening in Prince's Force.

EmmaMcG said:

Oh pleeze. You're letting your hatred of HitnRun and contemporary music get in the way of rational thought. HipHop Orientated music? Wtf? And I wouldn't call Max Weinberg or Patti Scalia great musicians lol. As a live performer are you really dogging out Prince? Cmon. And as a singer, arranger, guitarist, pianist, bassist, drummer- there is no one in the E Street Band (BS included) who can fuck with Prince.

But we're not talking about Prince as a live performer. The man is a master. This thread started as a discussion about the greater attachment to the lyrics and themes in Bruce's new music vs. Prince's new music as one gets older.

Slamming HITNRUN is unavoidable here because as Prince's latest album and, in my opinion, his most desperate grasp for the pop-culture youth (or what he lamely imagines that to be), it's directly relevant to the discussion.

Let's bring in another artist. Have you heard Bowie's Blackstar? It's amazing. And you read about the influences he brought in on the album and the musicians he worked with, it's clear this is going to be a major statement. And a MATURE major statement. Not garbage about being paid $1 million per show or stupid youth lingo like "going HAM" and "THOT."

Prince's lyrics used to be much more introspective. He used to have a gift when he busted out songs like SOTT, 1999, Anna Stesia, and many others. But these gems are few and far between these days. I'm not a huge fan of Bruce's new music, but it's plain to see how his lyrics, themes, and artistic development might appeal to people more as they get older when compared to someone like Prince who wants to keep pretending he's 23.

KingSausage said:

But we're not talking about Prince as a live performer. The man is a master. This thread started as a discussion about the greater attachment to the lyrics and themes in Bruce's new music vs. Prince's new music as one gets older. Slamming HITNRUN is unavoidable here because as Prince's latest album and, in my opinion, his most desperate grasp for the pop-culture youth (or what he lamely imagines that to be), it's directly relevant to the discussion. Let's bring in another artist. Have you heard Bowie's Blackstar? It's amazing. And you read about the influences he brought in on the album and the musicians he worked with, it's clear this is going to be a major statement. And a MATURE major statement. Not garbage about being paid $1 million per show or stupid youth lingo like "going HAM" and "THOT." Prince's lyrics used to be much more introspective. He used to have a gift when he busted out songs like SOTT, 1999, Anna Stesia, and many others. But these gems are few and far between these days. I'm not a huge fan of Bruce's new music, but it's plain to see how his lyrics, themes, and artistic development might appeal to people more as they get older when compared to someone like Prince who wants to keep pretending he's 23.

I was just about to mention Bowies new video Blackstar --- Prince and Bowie are a more apt comparison imo....they both take big risks

slamming HNR tho is tiresome...its not indicatove of anything other than Prince tinkering around with a young producer --- its just not that serious. Josh is like carmen elektra or an andy allo etc etc etc

ps - blackstar is so freaking amazing. i cant count how many times ive watched that video - its haunting

[Edited 11/29/15 8:58am]

[Edited 11/29/15 8:59am]

KingSausage said:

Again, the beauty of Prince, separate from his obvious musical genius, is his incredible work ethic and musical drive. HitNRun is not my favorite P album, but I know there will be a wealth of new releases, hidden tracks, side experiments and dazzling one-off projects (check out Allo/Prince acoustic LP) in any given year.

Bowie (far superior to BS imo) and Bruce produce music infrequently. Prince has music coming out of every pore. And the previous poster did dog P as a live performer!

jdcxc said:

Bowie (far superior to BS imo) and Bruce produce music infrequently. Prince has music coming out of every pore. And the previous poster did dog P as a live performer!

Yes, but that is called quality control + taking time for promotion.

And is Prince really still the consummate live performer? I fell asleep 10 times

during that Musicology broadcast. And his shows have lost their flow.

One difference between Prince and Springsteen is that Prince's best music (in sales, critical opinion, and influence) is so tied to 80's exuberance, and youth. He was literally "The Kid", and his best music was a soundtrack to a guy in his 20's. At the same point in time, Springsteen was releasing acoustic double albums about economic hardship, and positioning himself as an heir to Dylan, which is to say, wise beyond his years.

.

Fast forward to now, and it makes sense that whatever his faults, Springsteen seems to wear the mantle of age ("maturity") more comfortably than Prince, who seems to want to sound young again, unconvincingly.

.

I'd also say that Prince might be out of role models: it's fine to be young, and answer to James Brown, Sly Stone, George Clinton, and Jimi Hedrix. But those performers didn't age well either. So while Springsteen records Pete Seeger covers, and morphs into a legacy artist like Bob Dylan (always Bob Dylan), Prince seems to be in uncharted waters. Like A Mack.

jdcxc said:

I had written a huge post in response to this that basically said I agreed with some of the points you made but that I felt even though I love Prince and that he is my favorite singer and live performer he would be even better if he surrounded himself with people his own age his records and live shows would improve. It was a really really long post, I went into a LOT of detail but just as I was about to finish my phone crashed and I lost it all. And I'm too pissed off at the moment to type it all out again so I'll say we can agree to disagree and I'll leave it at that. LOL

Peace:-)

Pentacle said:

Calling releasing 5 lukewarm albums (Bowie) over twenty (!!!) years Quality Control, give me a break lol. And regarding promotion (who cares btw), Bowie hasn't toured/performed in years.

EmmaMcG said:

Lol...been there and I get it. But isn't the unpredictable element of Prince what we love most? I've never seen Bruce walk the tightropes Prince has...musically, culturally, artistically.

Mintchip said:

I agree with your musical mentor comment. But look at the names you referenced... Sly, Jimi, Clinton. Not a bad group as a foundation and a lot more musically complex than any of Bruce's heroes. I doubt Bruce could even play a George Clinton song lol.

jdcxc said:

Pentacle said:

Yes, but that is called quality control + taking time for promotion.

And is Prince really still the consummate live performer? I fell asleep 10 times

during that Musicology broadcast. And his shows have lost their flow.

Calling releasing 5 lukewarm albums (Bowie) over twenty (!!!) years Quality Control, give me a break lol. And regarding promotion (who cares btw), Bowie hasn't toured/performed in years.

Apart from the odd song I don't really care about Bowie, but I'd imagine he has spent a lot of years actually living, as opposed to Prince.
Bowie is such an icon, he doesn't really need to do much promotion - except for the videos, on which he clearly spends time and money.

BS goes out and passionately performs his new songs. And of course it's easier to be passionate when you have good songs which good lyrics. It shows you believe in your own 'product'.

jdcxc said:

I doubt Bruce could even play a George Clinton song lol.

May be true, but what matters is: does Prince still come out with good music. I say no, you say yes.

Maybe Prince has walked more artistic and cultural tightropes, even though you should know by now that the whole Uptown-philosophy and pubic-hair-on-show was just calculation, but again: does he still bring it. To paraphrase Jeb Bush: hell no.

jdcxc said:

Yeah, I had mentioned that in the post that vanished... Springsteen has never done or been capable of the kinds of things Prince has done. These days though, it seems Prince isn't capable of that either. Or at least, that's the impression people have. What's frustrating is that Prince, as a singular artist, IS still capable of doing that. Revelation is a revelation. Maybe the current band can't keep up with Prince. Maybe Prince feels at this stage he just couldn't be bothered trying to reinvent the wheel again. He could though. If he really wanted to. I just think he needs a better band with him. Not only to diversify his live shows, but to challenge him more in the studio. Springsteen may not have the best musicians in the world but they do seem to provide better inspiration.

EmmaMcG said:

jdcxc said:

Lol...been there and I get it. But isn't the unpredictable element of Prince what we love most? I've never seen Bruce walk the tightropes Prince has...musically, culturally, artistically.

Yeah, I had mentioned that in the post that vanished... Springsteen has never done or been capable of the kinds of things Prince has done. These days though, it seems Prince isn't capable of that either. Or at least, that's the impression people have. What's frustrating is that Prince, as a singular artist, IS still capable of doing that. Revelation is a revelation. Maybe the current band can't keep up with Prince. Maybe Prince feels at this stage he just couldn't be bothered trying to reinvent the wheel again. He could though. If he really wanted to. I just think he needs a better band with him. Not only to diversify his live shows, but to challenge him more in the studio. Springsteen may not have the best musicians in the world but they do seem to provide better inspiration.

Soooooo who pays all these band members thatt Prince should be working with?

You do realize that this comes with SIGNIFICANT expense, rt?

Prince is independent and runs his business himself.

Look at EVERYTHING through that lens and then see if you can figure out why Prince does what he does the way he does it.

terrig said:

Soooooo who pays all these band members thatt Prince should be working with?

You do realize that this comes with SIGNIFICANT expense, rt?

Prince is independent and runs his business himself.

Look at EVERYTHING through that lens and then see if you can figure out why Prince does what he does the way he does it.

WE pay them when we come to his concerts and buy his records. But he'd rather spend it on hair products and clothes.

Of course when you don't promote your product, wellll, then you can't pay your band members.

Pentacle said:

terrig said:

Soooooo who pays all these band members thatt Prince should be working with?

You do realize that this comes with SIGNIFICANT expense, rt?

Prince is independent and runs his business himself.

Look at EVERYTHING through that lens and then see if you can figure out why Prince does what he does the way he does it.

WE pay them when we come to his concerts and buy his records. But he'd rather spend it on hair products and clothes.

Of course when you don't promote your product, wellll, then you can't pay your band members.

I dont think any of you realize the expense of promotion, much less the expense of a band like the NPG or the Revolution - Prince will never ever have those kinds of budgets again....you cannot compare or creiticize really without paying attention to what great music COSTS.

Alot of artists are repackaging old stuff because its cheaper than making new stuff. Its no great love of their fans, its the easiest cheapest way to make money off existing content.

Sprinsgteen is making HBO specials because its cheaper than mounting a tour.

The business of and the economics of the music industry efefcts everything about what Prince is or isnt doing, or the way he's doing it. The fact that he still exists, in the manner in which he exists IS AMAZING.

If Prince starts recycling box sets of all his catalogue then we should all be truly worried, thats when we'll know he's really DONE. As of rt now, Prince is still finding ways to stay active and out there and trying to find his way and an industry that the bottom fell out of. He's still finding ways to tour and to make new work. So he wrote some music for people under 30 - that doesnt mean he's acting like he's 23 but his collaborators are...so he's working from their point of view. And if you look at the artwork of HNR its flat - its a cartoon, its called Hit N Run....HE GETS IT. lololol

[Edited 11/29/15 10:23am]

[Edited 11/29/15 10:37am]

terrig said:

Pentacle said:

WE pay them when we come to his concerts and buy his records. But he'd rather spend it on hair products and clothes.

Of course when you don't promote your product, wellll, then you can't pay your band members.

I dont think any of you realize the expense of promotion, much less the expense of a band like the NPG or the Revolution - Prince will never ever have those kinds of budgets again....you cannot compare or creiticize really without paying attention to what great music COSTS.

Alot of artists are repackaging old stuff because its cheaper than making new stuff. Its no great love of their fans, its the easiest cheapest way to make money off existing content.

Sprinsgteen is making HBO specials because its cheaper than mounting a tour.

[Edited 11/29/15 10:23am]

Prince has his own studio and plays every instrument, so it shouldn't cost much. If we're talking about inspiration on the other hand...

If yoy all want to travel in limos and drink champagne, and rent entire hotel floors just for yourself and the occasional groupie, then yes, touring costs a lot. Most other bands make a lot off money from touring.

Then again, Prince used to have great support from a record company, which would foot those bills. But then something went wrong...

jdcxc said:

The musical mentors you mentioned are legends. I'd add Marvin and Stevie. But I wouldn't put them above Dylan, Woody Guthrie, and others who Bruce is influenced by. Or vice versa! They're all legends.

jdcxc said:

I disagree strongly with the notion that Bowie has only put out five lukewarm albums since 1995. Outside (1995) is excellent. Earthling (1997) is very strong. Hours (1999) is fairly weak. Heathen (2002) is very good. Reality (2003) is also very good. The Next Day (2013) was amazing.

Plus, if we're gonna talk about people releasing lukewarm albums since 1995, it's a good thing we're on Prince.org because Prince is the KING of post-1995 lukewarm albums. Let's not confuse quantity with quality.

terrig said:

I know only too well the price of these things...
But for someone like Prince, one tour would be enough to cover a lot of it. Besides, I'm sure there are really good musicians out there he could use that wouldn't break the bank. People like Andre Cymone.