databank said:

MoBettaBliss said:

bliss

been here on and off for 13 years

k?

Mostly off obviously

[Edited 9/10/15 16:30pm]

whatever dude... it was a really stupid post

i mean c'mon... you said this

I read those names so often here: Bowie, Dylan, Springsteen, McCartney, The Rolling Stones, Kate Bush and even now Neil Diamond and Pixies...

.

I mean seriously? On a Prince forum?



give yourself an uppercut

databank said:

Just one thing, reading this thread I realize I understand better why there's so much disgust for P's music after 1995 on this forum.

.

I read those names so often here: Bowie, Dylan, Springsteen, McCartney, The Rolling Stones, Kate Bush and even now Neil Diamond and Pixies...

.

I mean seriously? On a Prince forum?Don't get me wrong I'm in love with Kate Bush and I like David Bowie a lot and I even happen to dig Pixies but that's mostly because my pals were so much into it when I was in hi skool and their music is part of my history. But I wouldn't ever go anywhere near a Springsteen, McCartney, Diamond, The Stones or Dylan album. Again don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't think they're talented, it's just folk and rock and blues and therefore not my thang even though I'll dig a rock/folk/blues thing every once in a while.

.

I'm basically into Black music (jazz, funk, hip-hop, you name it), synthpop/post-punk/new wave and electronic music and all its subgenres (from house to trip-hop to ambient to drumnbass and so on), and overall I dig P's post WB music a lot.

.

Before being on the Org I assumed on a Prince forum people would talk James Brown and George Clinton and Cameo and Public Enemy and John Coltrane all day. I assumed they'd be into Björk and Tricky and Felix Da Housecat and Chicks On Speed and that they'd go dancing to house music in clubs on week-ends.

.

I really didn't think I'd hear about Paul McCartney every day But yeah, I think if I was into McCartney or Spingsteen or Dylan etc., yeah, I'd probably hate most of what P has released since 96. makes sense to me.

.

I think Prince's music, past the 80's, is mostly aimed at people who're into Black music, synthpop and electronica. As discussed in a recent thread funk afficionados usually LOVE Newpower Soul while most orgers hate it. On the other hand when I read rave reviews about a lo-fi acoustic blues song like Indifference I'm a bit like WTF? Prince fans bitch on Chocolate Box or Lavaux, but rave about an acoustic lo-fi song?

.

I think at some point Prince achieved his dream of crossing over so much that he attracted a whole crowd of people who actually listen to things that have nothing to do with what he does in substance, and those people made a good half of his hardcore fanbase. The substance of what P does has never changed ever since 1978. Other orgers who are a lot into funk and/or electronica, know that and have acknowledged it.

.

It's a casting error, a bit as if the Stones had made a fanbase out of funkateers when they went through their disco phase with Miss You, and then when they're back to good ol' rock n roll the fans'd complain that the Stones are so not funky anymore. Fuck no they ain't, they never were meant to be funky.

.

For one Lotusflow3r Prince will always release 5 Mplsound, because in subtance what he does is Mplasound, not Lotusflow3r.

.

Why Dylan and Mccartney fans held on to Prince all those years (though in disgust), is what I don't get

Well, I'm a Dylan fan (and a Beatles, though I went more with Lennon and Harrison than McCartney, honestly), and have a lot of folk, country, and rock interests (more, honestly, than more "black" genres, which I largely came to through Prince). But I was a Prince fan first before I really got to know any other artists' work as a whole, and he reamains my favorite artist. But other than him, most of my other favorites (meaning the people that I want to hear everything by) are not working in the same genres.

I don't think I agree that MPLSound is more representative of Prince's essence than Lotusflow3r, though I am confused by people who seem to be around primarily for the "more rock" side. It's never been the dominant mode for Prince. But there's enough of it there to keep them somewhat satisfied.

jdcxc said:

So the folks that don't like Prince's new album don't like it because they're into all this folk and rock music and Prince's new album is too black for them? Well, Prince's new album makes me taste vomit in my throat and I grew up listening to Rick James, Cameo, Zapp, Lakeside, The Barkays, The Dazz Band, Midnight Star, Bobby Nunn, One Way, Brick, Ebonee Webb, Bill Summers and Summers Heat, Fatback, Mass Production, Invisible Man's Band, Michael Henderson, Tom Browne, Change, Dynasty, Shalamar, The Whispers, Teena Marie, and countless others like them. Are those artists black enough for you? --------------------------- Again, a lot of revisionist memories. Some cool artists in that group and a whole lot of misses in their catalogs. Stop reinventing shit just to make the point you don't like HitnRun. Most of those groups started during the same era as Prince and you haven't heard a peep from them in years. Don't get me started on how the Industry treats black "Classic" artists. Keep pushing Prince!

And the fact that we haven't heard a peep out of either them or newer artists similar to them just goes to show how far the R&B world fell off once the 1990s began. The only thing that remained was shit hop and adult contemporary. The only good thing that came out of the 1990s was house music and it all eventually started to sound alike and got old real quick. Once house music fell off, then I got into rock (something I had never been into before because R&B had previously been so good I didn't have time for rock.) But I'm not one to lower my tastes and go slumming just because the rest of the world does. If a genre I like falls off, I go a totally different route altogether. And when rock fell off too, I just said fuck it to all current music and pulled out my old records again.

.

Even after music as whole fell off, Prince was the only one still delivering the jams. But I see he has fallen off too. Oh well, if he doesn't shape up, time to ditch his ass like the rest of them and let him play around in the sandboxes in the playgrounds of the juvenille detention centers as much as he wants to.

.

.

.

[Edited 9/11/15 0:00am]

jdcxc said:

So the folks that don't like Prince's new album don't like it because they're into all this folk and rock music and Prince's new album is too black for them?

I wasn't talking about THE FUCKING NEW ALBUM

MoBettaBliss said:

databank said:

Mostly off obviously

[Edited 9/10/15 16:30pm]

whatever dude... it was a really stupid post

i mean c'mon... you said this

I read those names so often here: Bowie, Dylan, Springsteen, McCartney, The Rolling Stones, Kate Bush and even now Neil Diamond and Pixies...

.

I mean seriously? On a Prince forum?



give yourself an uppercut

I stand by what I said. I wonder how it'd be if on a Rolling Stones board u'd realize everyone is into Cameo and Bootsy Collins, my bet is u'd be surprised.

EddieC said:

databank said:

Just one thing, reading this thread I realize I understand better why there's so much disgust for P's music after 1995 on this forum.

.

I read those names so often here: Bowie, Dylan, Springsteen, McCartney, The Rolling Stones, Kate Bush and even now Neil Diamond and Pixies...

.

I mean seriously? On a Prince forum?Don't get me wrong I'm in love with Kate Bush and I like David Bowie a lot and I even happen to dig Pixies but that's mostly because my pals were so much into it when I was in hi skool and their music is part of my history. But I wouldn't ever go anywhere near a Springsteen, McCartney, Diamond, The Stones or Dylan album. Again don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't think they're talented, it's just folk and rock and blues and therefore not my thang even though I'll dig a rock/folk/blues thing every once in a while.

.

I'm basically into Black music (jazz, funk, hip-hop, you name it), synthpop/post-punk/new wave and electronic music and all its subgenres (from house to trip-hop to ambient to drumnbass and so on), and overall I dig P's post WB music a lot.

.

Before being on the Org I assumed on a Prince forum people would talk James Brown and George Clinton and Cameo and Public Enemy and John Coltrane all day. I assumed they'd be into Björk and Tricky and Felix Da Housecat and Chicks On Speed and that they'd go dancing to house music in clubs on week-ends.

.

I really didn't think I'd hear about Paul McCartney every day But yeah, I think if I was into McCartney or Spingsteen or Dylan etc., yeah, I'd probably hate most of what P has released since 96. makes sense to me.

.

I think Prince's music, past the 80's, is mostly aimed at people who're into Black music, synthpop and electronica. As discussed in a recent thread funk afficionados usually LOVE Newpower Soul while most orgers hate it. On the other hand when I read rave reviews about a lo-fi acoustic blues song like Indifference I'm a bit like WTF? Prince fans bitch on Chocolate Box or Lavaux, but rave about an acoustic lo-fi song?

.

I think at some point Prince achieved his dream of crossing over so much that he attracted a whole crowd of people who actually listen to things that have nothing to do with what he does in substance, and those people made a good half of his hardcore fanbase. The substance of what P does has never changed ever since 1978. Other orgers who are a lot into funk and/or electronica, know that and have acknowledged it.

.

It's a casting error, a bit as if the Stones had made a fanbase out of funkateers when they went through their disco phase with Miss You, and then when they're back to good ol' rock n roll the fans'd complain that the Stones are so not funky anymore. Fuck no they ain't, they never were meant to be funky.

.

For one Lotusflow3r Prince will always release 5 Mplsound, because in subtance what he does is Mplasound, not Lotusflow3r.

.

Why Dylan and Mccartney fans held on to Prince all those years (though in disgust), is what I don't get

Well, I'm a Dylan fan (and a Beatles, though I went more with Lennon and Harrison than McCartney, honestly), and have a lot of folk, country, and rock interests (more, honestly, than more "black" genres, which I largely came to through Prince). But I was a Prince fan first before I really got to know any other artists' work as a whole, and he reamains my favorite artist. But other than him, most of my other favorites (meaning the people that I want to hear everything by) are not working in the same genres.

I don't think I agree that MPLSound is more representative of Prince's essence than Lotusflow3r, though I am confused by people who seem to be around primarily for the "more rock" side. It's never been the dominant mode for Prince. But there's enough of it there to keep them somewhat satisfied.

Honestly from the beginning for each Bambi we got 10 I Wanna Be Your Lover, rock has always been there, from the first album, but it's never been the dominant trend. That's y I feel Mplsound is more representative of what P is about.

I see where u're coming from and I appreciate ur reasonable reply But if u trip more on The Undertaker and Lotusflow3r than on Newpower Soul and Mpslsound it'd kind of illustrate my point I guess

madonna..she just turned 57..last cd "rebel heart" some good tracks on there but i think her days of using electronica seem to have passed..time 4 a new sound or go back to basics

databank said:

MoBettaBliss said:

whatever dude... it was a really stupid post

i mean c'mon... you said this

I read those names so often here: Bowie, Dylan, Springsteen, McCartney, The Rolling Stones, Kate Bush and even now Neil Diamond and Pixies...

.

I mean seriously? On a Prince forum?



give yourself an uppercut

I stand by what I said. I wonder how it'd be if on a Rolling Stones board u'd realize everyone is into Cameo and Bootsy Collins, my bet is u'd be surprised.

but this isn't about the stones... it's about prince... someone with an incredibly diverse body of work

do i need to give examples?

yes a lot of his music is funk/r&b based... a lot isn't

and who cares anyway?... just because someone likes bob dylan (or any of the other people mentioned) doesn't mean they can't be passionate about 'black' music?.... how dumb

i listen to stuff from zeppelin to chopin... my favourite recent album is black messiah

you're putting people in boxes based on your own narrow minded view of music

it's moronic

MoBettaBliss said:

databank said:

I stand by what I said. I wonder how it'd be if on a Rolling Stones board u'd realize everyone is into Cameo and Bootsy Collins, my bet is u'd be surprised.

but this isn't about the stones... it's about prince... someone with an incredibly diverse body of work

do i need to give examples?

yes a lot of his music is funk/r&b based... a lot isn't

and who cares anyway?... just because someone likes bob dylan (or any of the other people mentioned) doesn't mean they can't be passionate about 'black' music?.... how dumb

i listen to stuff from zeppelin to chopin... my favourite recent album is black messiah

you're putting people in boxes based on your own narrow minded view of music

it's moronic

So be it.

McD said:

KingSausage said:

McD said:

TrevorAyer said:

Hate 2 break it to you ... But the one man band concept is all prince marketing Prince always has and always will need collaborators .. He has always taken ideas from his musical friends and often does not credit them The proof is in the quality drop off when he changed collaborators That said dylan writing a tune on acoustic by himself that is complete And perfect as is, shows far more talent than p lifting music from his dad bass grooves from andre key stabs from fink and lyrics from lisa or morris and calling them his own

What are you breaking to me exactly?

All I can see is that Prince needs collaborators? Having them and needing them are two different things. Has anyone (with decent production values) ever come across as needing them less than Prince in rock history? Is there a single anecdote from someone suggesting that he can't really cut it (as a songwriter / producer / guitarist blah blah).

And you're telling me Dylan on accoustic is the one true artist? Yeah, Dylan was never chased for stealing work back in them days. Nor are a few of his contemporaries back then still publicly calling him on it. You've got me there.

McD said:

McD said:

Dylan and Springsteen were never absolute masters of their instruments or the mixing desk, Madonna and Bowie can't even take a piss without a collaborator. . The only comparable names are McCartney (who got old and gradually lost it as everyone does) and Stevie Wonder (presumably the same, but I have never kept up with his career). . But Prince is different. . None of them have the all-round mastery of every instrument and production technique as Prince has. It's just as mind-boggling as his earlier output that all those other talents he has (still intact) can translate into such bland songs. Creatively, the fuse has blown. I genuinely thought that would never happen. But even worse... . There is NOBODY who has ever lost their skills with age who had at least two other whole careers worth of great tracks just sitting there in the can unused, as they fumbled along releasing D- garbage. . That's why Prince's current situation is unique. Not only compared to a few of his contemporaries but in the whole dang history of the arts.

This is one of the smartest things I've ever read here. Excellent post!

warning2all said:

LittlePurpleYoda said:

Paul McCartney - Flaming Pie (1997ish)? Pretty strong work which, like HitnRun, referenced his past, albeit more skillfully, & McCartney has had a number of equally interesting releases since.

[Edited 9/9/15 5:19am]

Excellent pick! This was going to be my response--then I saw you beat me to it! I also thought his "Chaos & Creation in the Backyard" was strong with unusual melodies. Worth a listen. My issue with Prince is releasing disposable junk at 57 when he could be releasing top shelf Vault tracks at 57. He has enough good tracks to release quality albums for the rest of his life, but he foists "Mr.Nelson", "Mr. Goodnight", "Life o the Party", "Like A Mack" at the expense of packaging "All My Dreams", "Wonderful Ass", or "Computer Blue Extended". Boggles the mind.

I would like to see the old recordings make it out, but I also want him to be releasing the newer work. It's like with Dylan--maybe the newer albums aren't always fantastic, and sometimes there'll be strange projects like the Sinatra covers... but he also has the incredible Bootleg Series, and that fills both desires for his fans. I want both from Prince.

KingSausage said:

NorthC said:

KingSausage said: There was no Dylan album with original songs between 1990 and 1997.

Dylan still recorded. I know they weren't original tunes. But they were still recordings, and our discussion has not specified original up to this point.

Besides, Dylan isn't just a songwriter. Just because they weren't originals doesn't negate their value (I've never understood the rather common disdain for the non-writing performer, anyway).

KingSausage said:

alandail said:

You set it up for comparisons to the very small set of things the poster considers better. What about all of the artist who had worse and/or no output. All you are showing is there are very few artists who did something worth comparing Prince to and may not be using the best of his recent output to make that comparison.

As for the new song a week, we'll have to see how that plays out. Stare is a recently new song. The new video is a new song too.

Also, I'm not sure if it was you or others saying things to the effect "prince shouldn't try to do X at age 57". I just hate puting artificial limits like that on people.

[Edited 9/9/15 14:07pm]

I would love to get input and examples of artists with worse output at 57. If I could put this in a big fucking neon sign I would: TELL ME WHAT FUCKING ARTISTS HAD WORSE OUTPUT AT AGE 57 FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST JUST TELL ME IT IS ONLY YOUR OPINION THERE ARE NO RIGHT OR WEONG ANSWERS JUST DEBATE FOR FUCK'S SAKE. [Edited 9/9/15 14:35pm]

Okay, most of them have no output at 57. Prince is a western pop musician, most western pop musicians are long done by 57. The ones we can think of, by the very fact that we can think of them, have probably done pretty decent work, other wise we would have never heard of it. I don't know, look at the charts for 1984--who else released anything this year?

Besides that, what's the big deal? At 56 he released two albums, and you liked at least one of them quite a bit--so he beat Dylan (well, actually, Time Out Of Mind came out when Dylan was 56, so that's the actual competition--how did AOA and Plectrum compare?). Are we gonna do this at 58? Think about the last 5 years, which includes 20Ten, which you like. Compare to the 5 years preceding Time Out of Mind.

The whole topic seems kind of odd. But since I've still only listened to the album three times, and still haven't found anything to feel too strongly about in any direction, I'll just keep watching the debate.

EddieC said:

TrevorAyer said:

McD said:

What are you breaking to me exactly?

All I can see is that Prince needs collaborators? Having them and needing them are two different things. Has anyone (with decent production values) ever come across as needing them less than Prince in rock history? Is there a single anecdote from someone suggesting that he can't really cut it (as a songwriter / producer / guitarist blah blah).

And you're telling me Dylan on accoustic is the one true artist? Yeah, Dylan was never chased for stealing work back in them days. Nor are a few of his contemporaries back then still publicly calling him on it. You've got me there.

P def NEEDS collaborators ... My point was more to those who put prince above all others as tho he did it all on his own .. When the truth is that others have done more on their own far moreso than prince ever has .. When has prince ever had a hit with a song and just a guitar? Never ... When has he toured with just himself and a guitar .. Never .. So my effort is to end the belittlement of others talents when compring to prince ..

Wow...u trying too hard....lol....It's easy to kick an old man when he's well out of his prime, isn't it? U sound just as bad as the Purple Kool Aid drinkers who diss other artists to boost Prince up....

All I know is from 1980 to 1990 Prince could go in the studio by himself and walk out with a "Dirty Mind" or "When Doves Cry" or "Sign O The Times"....And that's not something I'm pulling out of my ass or that I got from a book. This is coming from the actual people that were around him that I've spoken to over the years....Even Wendy & Lisa, who some in the Org like to make it out was responsible for the legend of Prince have gone on record to talk about how much of a one man band marvel Prince was in the studio...The same guy who created "The Beautiful Ones" even perplexing a shocked Dr. Fink on the chord changes and the keyboard structure of the tracks....

I get it...The Org has turned into a miserable place for Prince fans...A bunch of Barts running around making Prince fans feel like they should be ashamed to be Prince fans...on a Prince site...lol

But no need to run off in the land of hyperbole to make it like Prince was some overrated hack that got lucky because he had the right people around him....

Oh yeah...Prince may have never toured on his own (still don't understand the point of that) but he has done enough gigs onstage with just his guitar or piano (the One Nite Alone gigs come to mind) that it obvious he could go that route if he chose to....

Really what it comes down to is Prince, like most great artists had his artistic high peak run....It wasn't about the quality of his music suffereing because W&L or some other band member was no longer in his circle or some silly shit like that....Prince simply blew his wad after recording and dropping a ridiculous ammount of material...Certainly more than his peers in the '80s....That dude burned out....

It happens....

[Edited 9/11/15 19:31pm]

murph said:

TrevorAyer said:

McD said: P def NEEDS collaborators ... My point was more to those who put prince above all others as tho he did it all on his own .. When the truth is that others have done more on their own far moreso than prince ever has .. When has prince ever had a hit with a song and just a guitar? Never ... When has he toured with just himself and a guitar .. Never .. So my effort is to end the belittlement of others talents when compring to prince ..

Wow...u trying too hard....lol....It's easy to kick an old man when he's well out of his prime, isn't it? U sound just as bad as the Purple Kool Aid drinkers who diss other artists to boost Prince up....

All I know is from 1980 to 1990 Prince could go in the studio by himself and walk out with a "Dirty Mind" or "When Doves Cry" or "Sign O The Times"....And that's not something I'm pulling out of my ass or that I got from a book. This is coming from the actual people that were around him that I've spoken to over the years....Even Wendy & Lisa, who some in the Org like to make it out was responsible for the legend of Prince have gone on record to talk about how much of a one man band marvel Prince was in the studio...The same guy who created "The Beautiful Ones" even perplexing a shocked Dr. Fink on the chord changes and the keyboard structure of the tracks....

I get it...The Org has turned into a miserable place for Prince fans...A bunch of Barts running around making Prince fans feel like they should be ashamed to be Prince fans...on a Prince site...lol

But no need to run off in the land of hyperbole to make it like Prince was some overrated hack that got lucky because he had the right people around him....

Oh yeah...Prince may have never toured on his own (still don't understand the point of that) but he has done enough gigs onstage with just his guitar or piano (the One Nite Alone gigs come to mind) that it obvious he could go that route if he chose to....

Really what it comes down to is Prince, like most great artists had his artistic high peak run....It wasn't about the quality of his music suffereing because W&L or some other band member was no longer in his circle or some silly shit like that....Prince simply blew his wad after recording and dropping a ridiculous ammount of material...Certainly more than his peers in the '80s....That dude burned out....

It happens....

[Edited 9/11/15 19:31pm]

Not "burned out", just old. But I agree on everything else you said

Popular culture is (almost by definition) youth culture and old people generally find it hard to stay relevant. Not because they put out lesser quality material (although some definitely do) it's just that they get old and have less to say. And their audience moves on and gets older too (gotta pay those bills). As new generations come up they seek out voices that they can relate to and understand. Not the people their parents listened to (heavens forbid).

In his prime (when he was young) he was of the same generation that was buying his records so he was more in tune with the popular audience. I think one of the guys on P&B said it best when they said that back in the 80s he was setting trends but since the 90s he's been chasing them and relying on the people around him to tell him what's new, cool and exciting to try (as opposed to telling them).

I think that it's great that he keeps trying new things, whether I like them or not. As an artist it's always good to be pushing yourself. He's likely never going to be "relevant" to the culture at large ever again for anyt new stuff that he puts out but he'll always have the respect and admiration of anyone who knows and understands what being an artist/musician is about. He may have the odd "hit" here and there but will likely never be able to replicate his past success. Not because he's gotten any worse as a musician or song writer (probably the opposite is true) but because kids aren't ever gonna wanna listen to what some old dude's got to say.

What Prince's legacy will do (and already does) is inspire new musicians and artists to push themselves and their art to new levels.

He won't be the guy you hear on top 40 radio (or whatever the hell kids listen to these days) but he will be the guy that gets passed on from musician to musician. His records will be handed (or file transferred?) to new listeners from their elder brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts and neighbours. And from those seeds, mighty oaks will grow.

databank said:

EddieC said:

Well, I'm a Dylan fan (and a Beatles, though I went more with Lennon and Harrison than McCartney, honestly), and have a lot of folk, country, and rock interests (more, honestly, than more "black" genres, which I largely came to through Prince). But I was a Prince fan first before I really got to know any other artists' work as a whole, and he reamains my favorite artist. But other than him, most of my other favorites (meaning the people that I want to hear everything by) are not working in the same genres.

I don't think I agree that MPLSound is more representative of Prince's essence than Lotusflow3r, though I am confused by people who seem to be around primarily for the "more rock" side. It's never been the dominant mode for Prince. But there's enough of it there to keep them somewhat satisfied.

Honestly from the beginning for each Bambi we got 10 I Wanna Be Your Lover, rock has always been there, from the first album, but it's never been the dominant trend. That's y I feel Mplsound is more representative of what P is about.

I see where u're coming from and I appreciate ur reasonable reply But if u trip more on The Undertaker and Lotusflow3r than on Newpower Soul and Mpslsound it'd kind of illustrate my point I guess

Well, I actually don't trip more on The Undertaker and Lotusflow3r more than more "black albums" (NPS isn't that great in my opinion, but Mplsound is at least the equal of Lotusflow3r--but I'd choose Bria's over either of them). But my other "discography" artists include Dylan, Cohen, Lennon, Jonathan Richman, Costello, Nick Cave, Cash--yes, I have almost all of the P-Funk related albums, but that's an exception, largely due to Prince. People I have a few albums by, that's a whole lot more varied.

pureTsexy said: