Alan Leeds told Prince to wear jeans and cut out most of the "nonsense" that plagued his work.

After hearing HNR, I want Prince to wear jeans too.

terrig said:

AhPook said:

I really don't think it's a matter of which is better or worse. Those albums are great because they are mature works by mature artists making music for grownups. Masters at the top of their game who've given up trying to top the charts. Madonna and Prince are still trying to reach the teenagers. There's something inauthentic about that. The music may be good (I like HNR), but it just feels off, like an emeritus History professor in yoga pants.

Yes. Its like they are in a race to see who can be the first to actually get a hit with younger people. I can't hate them for trying, even if its clumsy.

I respect the impulse to remain relevant, but maybe there are different levels of relevance. Ironically, Prince already positioned himself as a mature artist twelve years ago (see 2003's mixed bag Live at the Aladdin Las Vegas). He's backslid since.

Genesia said:

databank said:

.

Why Dylan and Mccartney fans held on to Prince all those years (though in disgust), is what I don't get

It's called depth, honey. You should try it, sometime.

You can like whatever kind of music you like, but your own post suggests you don't dig very deeply. "I'm basically into Black music" - really? That's it? Some of us come at this from a different background - I studied music as a kid, playing mostly classical until I was in my teens. In college, I listened to Bach's Art of Fugue if I was having trouble going to sleep. I grew up with parents who listened to classical and folk and standards and musicals - and passed all of that on to me. I was watching Ed Sullivan when The Beatles made their first US appearance in 1964. I listened to Marvin Gaye and Al Green in equal measure with Led Zeppelin and the Moody Blues in the 70s. I found Prince in the early 80s and have everything he's ever released (and a huge amount of stuff that he hasn't).

What ties Prince to Dylan and McCartney and Diamond (and hell - even Gershwin and Porter) is song writing. I realize that's an odd concept in these days of EDM and pop crap, but there it is.

Yeah well I knew I'd get something like that. I predate the EDM and pop crap age myself and you know perfectly that I'm allergic to nearly anything that's been in the Top 2000 for the last 15 years.

(I also suspect that u've never liked me but if so, that's your prerogative). I have more than 4000 albums so you can imagine there's also other stuff that I dig than just Black music and dance music, from Debussy to Steve Reich to Cocteau Twins to Joni Mitchell to Alice Coltrane and so on. Hell, I even have a Beatles and a Springsteen album if u need to know (both being the least representative records of their respective discography as far as I know).

.

The fact that an educated person can enjoy all kind of music if it's good doesn't negate the fact that one has personal esthetic preferences. Don't give me that "I like every genre on a equal measure as long as it's good", it's BS. We can all enjoy certain works from any genre but we also all have our genres preferences in arts whether it's music, painting, movies, literature or dance you name it. People who reply "I listen to everything" when asked what kinda music they listen to are usually people who don't actually listen to anything at all past what they're being fed by the radio. U can say "I listen to a lot of very different things" but in the end there's always a "but I mostly listen to..." coming next.

.

My point still stands: if you mostly fancy folk/rock/blues you may fancy 1999 because even though it's minimalist electrofunk it's exceptionally brilliant (not only per se but in the context of 1982), but you're gonna shit on Mplsound because it's just good (not only per se but in the context of 2009). because u are not specifically into that school of music, u're not gonna see what's interesting in it and u'll be bored. Anyone who's into funk or dance music (which is by the way a craft, there's more to music than songwriting, ask Brian Eno or Pierre Boulez if you won't take my word for it) is very likely to acknowledge than Mplsound is a very decent album, and probably much more than just "decent".

That same person may dig a rock album every once in a while because they have a thing for it or because it's exceptionally brilliant but if you just throw the whole Bob Dylan discography at them and ask them what they think of each and every album, they'll most likely tell you that they like a couple but find most of them pretty uninteresting.

KingSausage said:

NorthC said:

Madonna of course put out Rebel Heart. I'm not a fan so I can't say much about it, but she deserves to be mentioned here. Like Prince she is still trying to have hits. U2 are from the same generation and got a lot of attention/critisism for putting out their album for free last year. It wasn't a very good album anyway. Maybe the Kate Bush way isn't so bad after all. Just go in retirement and only come out when you have something really really good to offer like the live shows she did last year. At least she doesn't waste our time with boring records.

Good call on U2. That last album was very bland. I didn't mind getting it for free.

U2?! For chrissakes! See what I mean?

KingSausage said:

In commenting on HITNRUN, a lot of Orgers are saying things like "it's great that Prince sounds so fresh and is challenging himself when he's 57. What other artist has done that?" Let's compare Prince and HITNRUN to what other major artists were doing at that age, or as close to 57 as possible. Dylan: Time Out of Mind (1997). This album smokes the shit out of HITNRUN. Stones: Bridges to Babylon (1997). Pretty weak. But stronger than HITNRUN, especially the Keith songs. Bowie: Reality (2003). No contest. Reality is a great album. Springsteen: Magic (2007). Again, no contest. Magic has some fantastic songs. Stevie: A Time 2 Love (2005?). I don't think this is a great album, but it's much better than HITNRUN. Any others?

This is a really odd thread.

The thread title suggests you're comparing Prince to all other artists at age 57, but the reality is you only want to compare him to ones you think put out a better album than HitNRun specifically at age 57. I haven't listened to HITNRUN yet because I don't have Tidal yet, but I thought AOA was fantastic. How many of the artists you just listed were releasing their 3rd studio album in 12 months. How many of them were releasing a new song every week as Prince plans? How many of them are even capable of doing all of that at age 57. I also hate it when people say someone else is too old to do something. Nobody tells Steven Speilberg that he should stop trying to make popular movies at age 68, instead they flock to Jurrasic World. Why should anyone tell Prince to stop trying to make popular music because of his age? Instead of complaing, I'm glad Prince is still so prolific. My dad was a huge Elvis fan, he died at age 42. I am also a huge Bee Gees fan, they stopped making music when Maurice Gibb died at age 53 and their rate of releasing new albums diminished prior to that. Prince's biggest rival from the 80s, Michael Jackson, died at age 50.

KingSausage said:

Most of the other music I listen to is stuff like D'Angelo, Van Hunt, Bilal, Kendrick, Public Enemy, Thundercat, etc. In other words, not a bunch of old white guys. The reason why my initial post primarily had old white guys as comparisons was those were the legendary artists who came to mind when I thought about old people (57+) still kicking and making music.

Yeah but u know it's always like that like Genesia and now u, every time u say something like what I said u have people replying "no, but not me, I'm not like that, I listen to a lot of stuff!" That "I have a gay friend" kinda stuff.

OK, Maybe you and Genesia do not fit my description.

Or maybe you do and so what? What's this that today one has to be ashamed of having musical preferences to the point that every time you tell someone something like "OK u're more into hip-hop than into death metal" they feel like they have to quote the 3 metal bands they listen to (as opposed to the 100 hip hop band they listen to) to justify themselves.

As I said above to Genesia u can have esthetic preferences without being totally allergic to everything that don't belong to those preferences. I find it pretty sane to have genre preferences as long as you're not gonna reject everything that belongs to other genres just because u got no clue what it's about.

AhPook said:

terrig said:

Yes. Its like they are in a race to see who can be the first to actually get a hit with younger people. I can't hate them for trying, even if its clumsy.

I respect the impulse to remain relevant, but maybe there are different levels of relevance. Ironically, Prince already positioned himself as a mature artist twelve years ago (see 2003's mixed bag Live at the Aladdin Las Vegas). He's backslid since.

I cant disagree with you. Luckily the popular landscape is so temporary that I just dont think it matters as much anymore whether its 'bad' or not. I also think thats why Prince did this in this manner. It just doesnt matter to a certain audience ....this album is fun radio friendly and dance friendly and tuned to the audience thats not that sophisticated. There are so many good edm/house producers tho....christian Ken & Barbie have to go lololol

alandail said:

databank said:

databank said:

Genesia said:

It's called depth, honey. You should try it, sometime.

You can like whatever kind of music you like, but your own post suggests you don't dig very deeply. "I'm basically into Black music" - really? That's it? Some of us come at this from a different background - I studied music as a kid, playing mostly classical until I was in my teens. In college, I listened to Bach's Art of Fugue if I was having trouble going to sleep. I grew up with parents who listened to classical and folk and standards and musicals - and passed all of that on to me. I was watching Ed Sullivan when The Beatles made their first US appearance in 1964. I listened to Marvin Gaye and Al Green in equal measure with Led Zeppelin and the Moody Blues in the 70s. I found Prince in the early 80s and have everything he's ever released (and a huge amount of stuff that he hasn't).

What ties Prince to Dylan and McCartney and Diamond (and hell - even Gershwin and Porter) is song writing. I realize that's an odd concept in these days of EDM and pop crap, but there it is.

Yeah well I knew I'd get something like that. I predate the EDM and pop crap age myself and you know perfectly that I'm allergic to nearly anything that's been in the Top 2000 for the last 15 years.

(I also suspect that u've never liked me but if so, that's your prerogative). I have more than 4000 albums so you can imagine there's also other stuff that I dig than just Black music and dance music, from Debussy to Steve Reich to Cocteau Twins to Joni Mitchell to Alice Coltrane and so on. Hell, I even have a Beatles and a Springsteen album if u need to know (both being the least representative records of their respective discography as far as I know).

.

The fact that an educated person can enjoy all kind of music if it's good doesn't negate the fact that one has personal esthetic preferences. Don't give me that "I like every genre on a equal measure as long as it's good", it's BS. We can all enjoy certain works from any genre but we also all have our genres preferences in arts whether it's music, painting, movies, literature or dance you name it. People who reply "I listen to everything" when asked what kinda music they listen to are usually people who don't actually listen to anything at all past what they're being fed by the radio. U can say "I listen to a lot of very different things" but in the end there's always a "but I mostly listen to..." coming next.

.

My point still stands: if you mostly fancy folk/rock/blues you may fancy 1999 because even though it's minimalist electrofunk it's exceptionally brilliant (not only per se but in the context of 1982), but you're gonna shit on Mplsound because it's just good (not only per se but in the context of 2009). because u are not specifically into that school of music, u're not gonna see what's interesting in it and u'll be bored. Anyone who's into funk or dance music (which is by the way a craft, there's more to music than songwriting, ask Brian Eno or Pierre Boulez if you won't take my word for it) is very likely to acknowledge than Mplsound is a very decent album, and probably much more than just "decent".

That same person may dig a rock album every once in a while because they have a thing for it or because it's exceptionally brilliant but if you just throw the whole Bob Dylan discography at them and ask them what they think of each and every album, they'll most likely tell you that they like a couple but find most of them pretty uninteresting.

Awesome! There's a new one for that other thread: You disagree with me, therefore you don't like me. I don't know you from Adam. How would I know whether I like you or not? I replied to your words - not to you.

You asked, "Why Dylan and Mccartney fans held on to Prince all those years" and I told you. Because what those three have in common is songwriting. It's you who broadened the discussion to Brian Eno and Pierre Boulez (and started in on personal shit) when you didn't like the perfectly reasonable answer I gave you.

I know there's more to music than songwriting - I'm listening to Debussy's La Mer as I write this. (The Impressionists were about anything but songwriting.) Before that, I was listening to The Cars' first album, which is filled with - wait for it - songs! Y'know what? I like them both equally! Inconceivable, I know. You know what I like better than either of them? Parade. And 1999. And Sign O the Times. And Dirty Mind. Dig if you will - difficult as that may be.

KingSausage said:

And what exactly makes Dylan and McCartney irrelevant to a discussion about Prince anyway? Other than someone's personal disdain for their music? Is Prince also a legendary artist or is he not? Have they not all released albums at age 57 or not? What the fuck.

Since we're talking primarily about 80s artists, John mellencamp (believe it or not) put out a good record at 57: Life, Death, Love, Freedom. Like the others it's mature and deals with themes of age and mortality. T-Bone Burnett produced it.

KingSausage said:

databank said:

U2?! For chrissakes! See what I mean?

What's your point? Do you actually have a point about U2 or are you just expressing the fact that you don't like U2? I've always liked your posts, Databank, and we generally get along. But I just don't understand where you're coming from here. Prince started releasing albums in 1978, and spent several years being talked about in the same breath as artists like Springsteen and U2. Remember how he was pissed they SOTT lost to Joshua Tree at the Grammy's? Please explain how U2 is not a valid point of comparison here.

It was just a superexample. I think 2 pop artists can hardly be more esthetically at odds than Prince and U2.

databank said:

AhPook said:

KingSausage said:

And what exactly makes Dylan and McCartney irrelevant to a discussion about Prince anyway? Other than someone's personal disdain for their music? Is Prince also a legendary artist or is he not? Have they not all released albums at age 57 or not? What the fuck.

Since we're talking primarily about 80s artists, John mellencamp (believe it or not) put out a good record at 57: Life, Death, Love, Freedom. Like the others it's mature and deals with themes of age and mortality. T-Bone Burnett produced it.

Ahhhhh...and there we have it. The Place That Prince Cannot Go. Because that would require self-reflection and honesty and dropping his "time is a trick" mantle. He'd actually have to be *gasp* human.

And so we get HITNRUN instead.

[Edited 9/9/15 10:31am]

Genesia said:

databank said:

Yeah well I knew I'd get something like that. I predate the EDM and pop crap age myself and you know perfectly that I'm allergic to nearly anything that's been in the Top 2000 for the last 15 years.

(I also suspect that u've never liked me but if so, that's your prerogative). I have more than 4000 albums so you can imagine there's also other stuff that I dig than just Black music and dance music, from Debussy to Steve Reich to Cocteau Twins to Joni Mitchell to Alice Coltrane and so on. Hell, I even have a Beatles and a Springsteen album if u need to know (both being the least representative records of their respective discography as far as I know).

.

The fact that an educated person can enjoy all kind of music if it's good doesn't negate the fact that one has personal esthetic preferences. Don't give me that "I like every genre on a equal measure as long as it's good", it's BS. We can all enjoy certain works from any genre but we also all have our genres preferences in arts whether it's music, painting, movies, literature or dance you name it. People who reply "I listen to everything" when asked what kinda music they listen to are usually people who don't actually listen to anything at all past what they're being fed by the radio. U can say "I listen to a lot of very different things" but in the end there's always a "but I mostly listen to..." coming next.

.

My point still stands: if you mostly fancy folk/rock/blues you may fancy 1999 because even though it's minimalist electrofunk it's exceptionally brilliant (not only per se but in the context of 1982), but you're gonna shit on Mplsound because it's just good (not only per se but in the context of 2009). because u are not specifically into that school of music, u're not gonna see what's interesting in it and u'll be bored. Anyone who's into funk or dance music (which is by the way a craft, there's more to music than songwriting, ask Brian Eno or Pierre Boulez if you won't take my word for it) is very likely to acknowledge than Mplsound is a very decent album, and probably much more than just "decent".

That same person may dig a rock album every once in a while because they have a thing for it or because it's exceptionally brilliant but if you just throw the whole Bob Dylan discography at them and ask them what they think of each and every album, they'll most likely tell you that they like a couple but find most of them pretty uninteresting.

Awesome! There's a new one for that other thread: You disagree with me, therefore you don't like me. I don't know you from Adam. How would I know whether I like you or not? I replied to your words - not to you.

My bad. Honestly u probably didn't even realized u were speaking to the same orger each time but in all those years, nearly everytime u answered to anything I posted was to spank me in a very condescendent way, so I assumed u didn't like me. But OK, I was wrong. Sorry for assuming.

You asked, "Why Dylan and Mccartney fans held on to Prince all those years" and I told you. Because what those three have in common is songwriting. It's you who broadened the discussion to Brian Eno and Pierre Boulez (and started in on personal shit) when you didn't like the perfectly reasonable answer I gave you.

You did more than replying my question, you clearly tried to say that my whole post made no sense. I felt it reasonable in that case to try and demonstrate than it did. So sue me.

I know there's more to music than songwriting - I'm listening to Debussy's La Mer as I write this. (The Impressionists were about anything but songwriting.) Before that, I was listening to The Cars' first album, which is filled with - wait for it - songs! Y'know what? I like them both equally! Inconceivable, I know. You know what I like better than either of them? Parade. And 1999. And Sign O the Times. And Dirty Mind. Dig if you will - difficult as that may be.

So you have ZERO preference in musical genres whatsoever, no musical genre or school that u generally appreciate or dislike more than some others? Seriously? And don't give me specific examples like that, this is exacly NOT what I was talking about and I suspect u know it.

KingSausage said:

And what exactly makes Dylan and McCartney irrelevant to a discussion about Prince anyway? Nothing, that was not what I was saying. Other than someone's personal disdain for their music? Is Prince also a legendary artist or is he not? Have they not all released albums at age 57 or not? What the fuck. I was not questioning the legitimacy of your original thread, just going a bit out of topic and making a general constatation on Prince's fandom.

KingSausage said:

databank said:

It was just a superexample. I think 2 pop artists can hardly be more esthetically at odds than Prince and U2.

I agree on how different they are. Prince is my favorite, and I loathe U2. But I can still assess how U2's new albums are generally perceived by the public and critics, even though I'd rather lick my cat's butt than listen to U2.

Yes but as i say above it was never about ur thread in the first place

NorthC said:

Guys, let's not turn this into another again!

Genesia usually brings thoughtful contributions to this forum even if we often disagree. I have no wish to fight with her

databank said:

Genesia said:

Awesome! There's a new one for that other thread: You disagree with me, therefore you don't like me. I don't know you from Adam. How would I know whether I like you or not? I replied to your words - not to you.

My bad. Honestly u probably didn't even realized u were speaking to the same orger each time but in all those years, nearly everytime u answered to anything I posted was to spank me in a very condescendent way, so I assumed u didn't like me. But OK, I was wrong. Sorry for assuming.

You asked, "Why Dylan and Mccartney fans held on to Prince all those years" and I told you. Because what those three have in common is songwriting. It's you who broadened the discussion to Brian Eno and Pierre Boulez (and started in on personal shit) when you didn't like the perfectly reasonable answer I gave you.

You did more than replying my question, you clearly tried to say that my whole post made no sense. I felt it reasonable in that case to try and demonstrate than it did. So sue me.

I know there's more to music than songwriting - I'm listening to Debussy's La Mer as I write this. (The Impressionists were about anything but songwriting.) Before that, I was listening to The Cars' first album, which is filled with - wait for it - songs! Y'know what? I like them both equally! Inconceivable, I know. You know what I like better than either of them? Parade. And 1999. And Sign O the Times. And Dirty Mind. Dig if you will - difficult as that may be.

So you have ZERO preference in musical genres whatsoever, no musical genre or school that u generally appreciate or dislike more than some others? Seriously? And don't give me specific examples like that, this is exacly NOT what I was talking about and I suspect u know it.

Okay, I can't reply to this very well the way you've formatted it, but I did not "clearly try to say" that your post made no sense. You inferred that - just like you inferred that I don't like you.

Of course, I have musical preferences. Everyone does. (I think I made it pretty clear in that post that Prince is one of them.) What I am saying is that there are very few musical categories that I actually favor or dismiss out of hand. I don't like metal or bro country. A lot of rap leaves me cold - but I don't really consider rap to be music and I don't have a frame of reference that makes it relevant to me, so...

My preferences are usually more a matter of mood than genre.

[Edited 9/9/15 10:59am]

Genesia said:

AhPook said:

Since we're talking primarily about 80s artists, John mellencamp (believe it or not) put out a good record at 57: Life, Death, Love, Freedom. Like the others it's mature and deals with themes of age and mortality. T-Bone Burnett produced it.

Ahhhhh...and there we have it. The Place That Prince Cannot Go. Because that would require self-reflection and honesty and dropping his "time is a trick" mantle. He'd actually have to be *gasp* human.

And so we get HITNRUN instead.

[Edited 9/9/15 10:31am]

There's two sides to every Prince story.

Yes, the introspective, self-reflective prince albums died a quiet death with the rainbow children, because most prince fans did not like the record at that time, which I found weird. It was about what he was feeling at that time, and the music was great. Prince probably felt slighted and made a promise to himself never to bare his soul again.

But then again, AOA had 'way back home', and 'time', which do deal with so-called mature themes of age and mortality.

I think we tend to overanalyse. Prince has done this in the 90s too, chased trendy sounds and caused us heartache. That's what he does, I think, without the revolution.

Also, the Prince of the past belonged to all races, all colours, all creeds, all castes. He was a truly universal musical icon. Now all he talks about is black power and repressed anger, which has IMO taken the gloss off his amazing 80s image of being a global pop culture hero.

Funkyalien said:

Genesia said:

Ahhhhh...and there we have it. The Place That Prince Cannot Go. Because that would require self-reflection and honesty and dropping his "time is a trick" mantle. He'd actually have to be *gasp* human.

And so we get HITNRUN instead.

[Edited 9/9/15 10:31am]

There's two sides to every Prince story.

Yes, the introspective, self-reflective prince albums died a quiet death with the rainbow children, because most prince fans did not like the record at that time, which I found weird. It was about what he was feeling at that time, and the music was great. Prince probably felt slighted and made a promise to himself never to bare his soul again.

But then again, AOA had 'way back home', and 'time', which do deal with so-called mature themes of age and mortality.

I think we tend to overanalyse. Prince has done this in the 90s too, chased trendy sounds and caused us heartache. That's what he does, I think, without the revolution.

Also, the Prince of the past belonged to all races, all colours, all creeds, all castes. He was a truly universal musical icon. Now all he talks about is black power and repressed anger, which has IMO taken the gloss off his amazing 80s image of being a global pop culture hero.

And I absolutely love those moments (probably because I relate strongly to them, myself). He also had a line in Lion of Judah that I thought was very poignant (paraphrasing here), "I'm probably past my expiration date, but still I adore you." I didn't care for the song (or Planet Earth, the album) as a whole, but that moment really touched me. He's great when he's willing to go there.

Genesia said:

databank said:

Okay, I can't reply to this very well the way you've formatted it, but I did not "clearly try to say" that your post made no sense. You inferred that - just like you inferred that I don't like you. OK, my bad again then

Of course, I have musical preferences. Everyone does. (I think I made it pretty clear in that post that Prince is one of them.) What I am saying is that there are very few musical categories that I actually favor or dismiss out of hand. I don't like metal or bro country.A lot of rap leaves me cold - [but I don't really consider rap to be music and I don't have a frame of reference that makes it relevant to me , so...
This totally hallucinates me given the obvious extent of your musical knowledge and your reflection regarding music and art in general ]

My preferences are usually more a matter of mood than genre.

OK, fair enough. I think we can agree on a little bit of you and a little bit of me, "2gether in the truth God, me and u"

And i'm glad u don't dislike me, 4 realz!

[Edited 9/9/15 10:59am]

Genesia said:

Funkyalien said:

There's two sides to every Prince story.

Yes, the introspective, self-reflective prince albums died a quiet death with the rainbow children, because most prince fans did not like the record at that time, which I found weird. It was about what he was feeling at that time, and the music was great. Prince probably felt slighted and made a promise to himself never to bare his soul again.

But then again, AOA had 'way back home', and 'time', which do deal with so-called mature themes of age and mortality.

I think we tend to overanalyse. Prince has done this in the 90s too, chased trendy sounds and caused us heartache. That's what he does, I think, without the revolution.

Also, the Prince of the past belonged to all races, all colours, all creeds, all castes. He was a truly universal musical icon. Now all he talks about is black power and repressed anger, which has IMO taken the gloss off his amazing 80s image of being a global pop culture hero.

And I absolutely love those moments (probably because I relate strongly to them, myself). He also had a line in Lion of Judah that I thought was very poignant (paraphrasing here), "I'm probably past my expiration date, but still I adore you." I didn't care for the song (or Planet Earth, the album) as a whole, but that moment really touched me. He's great when he's willing to go there.

Reflection comes to mind, too.

NorthC said:

Guys, let's not turn this into another again!

databank said:

NorthC said: