First of all, Noodled24, you seem to be the type of person who has to always be right, no matter what, and can't let simple points be. So this likely will be my last response.

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I referred to technical recording mistakes. Not creative choices or serendipitous accidents, which Prince then chose to keep.

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What's wrong with Forever In My Life? If it hadn't been revealed that Prince recorded a backing vocal out of sync, who would have known the difference? What's wrong with Ballad of Dorothy Parker? If it hadn't been revealed that song was recorded while the mixing board wasn't at full power, would you have mentioned it?

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There are multiple accounts of Prince engineers working for long periods and having little time off. The engineers would leave the studio, grab a few hours sleep, come back and do it all over again. Your response is that Prince didn't work on "a" song for a long time?

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In recent years, there have been several Prince recordings that have obvious clipping, crackling distortion, etc. That isn't some in-joke... more like incompetence.

So my question is then why do you think "The Breakdown" is incompetance but "Red Corvette" was the hand of god?

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Because entire recordings have crackling, distortion, etc. There was a rehearsal of Bambi, that 3rdEyeGirl shared back when the group was getting going, the recording was distorted to the point of being almost unlistenable.

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The track for The Breakdown is screwed... bass/sound totally distorted to the point of being distracting (several people have talked about this). Time from AOA has a distorted crackling sound that keeps popping up here and there, like on bass and vocals. It's terrible.

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The recent song HardRockLover has crackling distortion popping up in parts too.

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The distortion on Little Red Corvette's background vocal track may be easier to overlook (some people might not notice it). It's more of an isolated mistake that happened.

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there is also no evidence to support your theory these songs were destroyed....

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It's NOT just my theory. Susan Rogers, HM Buff and possibly other former Prince engineers have said the tapes could be lost forever. It's a known fact that tapes deteriorate over time.

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Just to be clear - Prince who basically lives in a recording studio and has recorded well over 5,000 songs... you're not convinced he knows how to load a tape?

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Yeah, you're really just looking for argument and grasping at straws. Let me guess... are you a lawyer?

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So you think Prince can align a tape machine? Do you think he knows how to "bake" old tapes in an oven? Sure, Prince is gonna be in the kitchen at Paisley "baking" irreplaceable tapes himself. Furthermore, would Prince be willing to put forth the time it takes to sort through and transfer tapes?

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And then more again for Crystal Ball two. Because we know he tends to compile albums and listen to them himself before they get released. It seems unlikely he just wrote down the names of songs and said "this will be CB2".

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As mentioned before, obviously some tapes were transferred for the Crystal Ball project, which might have included the songs listed on the proposed CB version II too.

fbueller said:

I referred to technical recording mistakes. Not creative choices or serendipitous accidents, which Prince then chose to keep.

He chose to keep the clipping on "The Breakdown". You don't think he recorded it, put it on youtube, compiled AOA, submitted it to WB who then released it and none of these people said "umm dude...".

It was obviously deliberately left there.

What's wrong with Forever In My Life? If it hadn't been revealed that Prince recorded a backing vocal out of sync, who would have known the difference? What's wrong with Ballad of Dorothy Parker? If it hadn't been revealed that song was recorded while the mixing board wasn't at full power, would you have mentioned it?

Probably not. But the FACT is that it was revealed to be a mistake which Prince then left. Call it serendipity if you like. "The Breakdown" might be a less subtle mistake but it was left in just as deliberately.

There are multiple accounts of Prince engineers working for long periods and having little time off. The engineers would leave the studio, grab a few hours sleep, come back and do it all over again. Your response is that Prince didn't work on "a" song for a long time?

Yes. Long recording sessions are well documented but usually resulted in multiple songs being recorded, rather than "a" song.

In recent years, there have been several Prince recordings that have obvious clipping, crackling distortion, etc. That isn't some in-joke... more like incompetence.

So my question is then why do you think "The Breakdown" is incompetance but "Red Corvette" was the hand of god?

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Because entire recordings have crackling, distortion, etc. There was a rehearsal of Bambi, that 3rdEyeGirl shared back when the group was getting going, the recording was distorted to the point of being almost unlistenable.

No. We are talking about studio tracks. You can't throw out an MP3 of a live rehearsal as an example. 1) it's live, 2) it's a rehearsal, 3) you're overstating the distortion. Especially if it takes software to prove it's not "perfect"

The track for The Breakdown is screwed... bass/sound totally distorted to the point of being distracting (several people have talked about this). Time from AOA has a distorted crackling sound that keeps popping up here and there, like on bass and vocals. It's terrible.

There is ONE noticeable point where IIRC the vocal clips. Only after people began running it through software to analyze the song did people start claiming the track is unlistenable.

The recent song HardRockLover has crackling distortion popping up in parts too.

Go on... Hopefully you're going to tell me this is on a lead vocal because otherwise...

The distortion on Little Red Corvette's background vocal track may be easier to overlook (some people might not notice it). It's more of an isolated mistake that happened.

... this undermines your argument.

there is also no evidence to support your theory these songs were destroyed....

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It's NOT just my theory. Susan Rogers, HM Buff and possibly other former Prince engineers have said the tapes could be lost forever. It's a known fact that tapes deteriorate over time.

"COULD BE" lost forver. But they "could be" fine. In fact the ones stored inside a bank vault likey are fine. Tapes older than Princes have survived.

Just to be clear - Prince who basically lives in a recording studio and has recorded well over 5,000 songs... you're not convinced he knows how to load a tape?

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Yeah, you're really just looking for argument and grasping at straws. Let me guess... are you a lawyer?

I am not. (Way to change the subject though).

So you think Prince can align a tape machine? Do you think he knows how to "bake" old tapes in an oven? Sure, Prince is gonna be in the kitchen at Paisley "baking" irreplaceable tapes himself. Furthermore, would Prince be willing to put forth the time it takes to sort through and transfer tapes?

Which tapes need baked? You're taking something once said about Janet Jacksons tapes and appying it to Prince. Did Janet keep her tapes in a bank vault?

And then more again for Crystal Ball two. Because we know he tends to compile albums and listen to them himself before they get released. It seems unlikely he just wrote down the names of songs and said "this will be CB2".

As mentioned before, obviously some tapes were transferred for the Crystal Ball project, which might have included the songs listed on the proposed CB version II too.

Who transfered the tapes in order to compile Crystal Ball?

Thanks for your response, Noodled24...

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Obviously, Prince has final say on how/what music gets released. That's common sense.

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Your argument that Prince wanted The Breakdown to sound that way is misguided. Maybe the actual recording was screwed and he decided to go with it (doesn't mean it's proper from a technical point of view).

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It's also possible, after years of playing live concerts, Prince has some hearing deficiency. Like the piercing "dog-whistle" keyboard part on Black Sweat should not have been that way (as evidenced by many listeners noting that particular issue). Maybe Prince couldn't hear this and ignored an engineer's wish to reduce effects of the keyboard part in the track.

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I'm not just taking something once said about Janet's tapes and applying it to Prince. (I used that as an example, like, you know, the Control tapes were ONLY 10 years old and the tapes were flaking/falling apart. Prince's tapes are NOW 30+ years old). I guess Prince's former engineers have expressed concern about his archive being at risk for the hell of it, right?

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Prince's "holy tapes" are not immune to the effects of physics and time.

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Which tapes need to be baked? Who knows? Depends on the brand of tape, age, how the tape was cared for over the years, etc. You said Prince might have transferred archive tapes himself. Which is pretty unlikely.

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As to your question: Who transfered the tapes in order to compile Crystal Ball? That would be HM Buff.

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Remind me, what was your point in stating that "Prince recorded multiple songs, rather than 'a' song in a day"? Keeping in mind your comments were in response to me simply stating: that Prince's engineers did an admirable job, considering the long hours and fast-paced working environment.

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[No. We are talking about studio tracks. You can't throw out an MP3 of a live rehearsal as an example. 1) it's live, 2) it's a rehearsal, 3) you're overstating the distortion. Especially if it takes software to prove it's not "perfect"]

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So, according to you, an experienced recording artist and/or engineer shouldn't be able to record live rehearsals properly? Getting signal levels right (i.e. not to the point of distorting) is Basic Recording 101.

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I don't need software to prove anything. I used this thing called, wait for it..... ears.

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[There is ONE noticeable point where IIRC the vocal clips. Only after people began running it through software to analyze the song did people start claiming the track is unlistenable.]

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Again you refer to software analysis...

The song Time has distortion/clipping/crackling noise popping up on Prince's vocal and the bass and it's not just at one point.

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The recent song HardRockLover has crackling distortion popping up in parts too.

[Go on... Hopefully you're going to tell me this is on a lead vocal because otherwise...]

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Actually it's on the guitar part. Did you notice people mentioned this as soon as they heard the song? Check about the 3:24-3:29 mark for an example of what we are talking about. Do you think the bass and drum tracks sound fine as well?

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The distortion on Little Red Corvette's background vocal track may be easier to overlook (some people might not notice it). It's more of an isolated mistake that happened.

[... this undermines your argument.]

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BTW - for some reason, your posts are difficult to quote and reply to.

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Little Red Corvette was more of an isolated recording mistake. As evidenced by the fact that LRC is a recording from 1982, and the Sign of the Times album examples are from 1986/1987.

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there is also no evidence to support your theory these songs were destroyed....

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It's NOT just my theory. Susan Rogers, HM Buff and possibly other former Prince engineers have said the tapes could be lost forever. It's a known fact that tapes deteriorate over time.

["COULD BE" lost forver. But they "could be" fine. In fact the ones stored inside a bank vault likey are fine. Tapes older than Princes have survived.]

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You must be SO fun to spend time or have a conversation with.....

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Just to be clear - Prince who basically lives in a recording studio and has recorded well over 5,000 songs... you're not convinced he knows how to load a tape?

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Yeah, you're really just looking for argument and grasping at straws. Let me guess... are you a lawyer?

[I am not. (Way to change the subject though).]

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You exhibit all the hallmarks of a lawyer. Taking a simple matter and making it complicated. Steadfast refusal to accept logical information from others. Trying to twist the other party's words around.

fbueller said:

Thanks for your response, Noodled24...

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Obviously, Prince has final say on how/what music gets released. That's common sense.

.

Your argument that Prince wanted The Breakdown to sound that way is misguided. Maybe the actual recording was screwed and he decided to go with it (doesn't mean it's proper from a technical point of view).

It's also possible, after years of playing live concerts, Prince has some hearing deficiency. Like the piercing "dog-whistle" keyboard part on Black Sweat should not have been that way (as evidenced by many listeners noting that particular issue). Maybe Prince couldn't hear this and ignored an engineer's wish to reduce effects of the keyboard part in the track.

The clipping it "the breakdown" isn't something you need to listen for. It's there and it's obvious. Even if we assume Prince has a hearing deficiency (which there is no evidence of). There are multiple other people who could have pointed out the clipping. Engineers, bandmembers, Josh, record execs.

If Prince did have something wrong with his hearing then one would expect to hear more of these glaring "mistakes".

I'm not just taking something once said about Janet's tapes and applying it to Prince. (I used that as an example, like, you know, the Control tapes were ONLY 10 years old and the tapes were flaking/falling apart. Prince's tapes are NOW 30+ years old). I guess Prince's former engineers have expressed concern about his archive being at risk for the hell of it, right?

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Prince's "holy tapes" are not immune to the effects of physics and time.

Where were Janets Tapes stored? If they weren't stored in a bank vault then the comparison is null, because the conditions under which things are stored will have an effect on how they stand the test of time.

Prince's tapes are't "holy" but he did have the foresight to have a secure storage facility built into his studio complex.

Which tapes need to be baked? Who knows? Depends on the brand of tape, age, how the tape was cared for over the years, etc. You said Prince might have transferred archive tapes himself. Which is pretty unlikely.

No, no I didn't. You said HM Buff wasn't allowed to transfer the tapes. You then extrapolated that since HM Buff didn't transfer the tapes, nobody would have.

I said just because HM Buff didn't do it, that doesn't mean the task was never completed. Indeed we know at least 30 songs were transfered for the CB album. I don't believe Prince simply picked 30 songs and had those tapes and ONLY those tapes transfered.

As to your question: Who transfered the tapes in order to compile Crystal Ball? That would be HM Buff.

Ok.

Remind me, what was your point in stating that "Prince recorded multiple songs, rather than 'a' song in a day"? Keeping in mind your comments were in response to me simply stating: that Prince's engineers did an admirable job, considering the long hours and fast-paced working environment.

That he works quickly, and that perfection isn't as important as capturing a feel/vibe/certain energy.

[No. We are talking about studio tracks. You can't throw out an MP3 of a live rehearsal as an example. 1) it's live, 2) it's a rehearsal, 3) you're overstating the distortion. Especially if it takes software to prove it's not "perfect"]

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So, according to you, an experienced recording artist and/or engineer shouldn't be able to record live rehearsals properly? Getting signal levels right (i.e. not to the point of distorting) is Basic Recording 101.

"Properly" doesn't exist in music. How do you know he didn't want it to sound exactly the way it sounds? You're assuming he wanted it sound one way but couldn't make that happen so now it sounds like this.

I don't need software to prove anything. I used this thing called, wait for it..... ears.

[There is ONE noticeable point where IIRC the vocal clips. Only after people began running it through software to analyze the song did people start claiming the track is unlistenable.]

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Again you refer to software analysis...

The song Time has distortion/clipping/crackling noise popping up on Prince's vocal and the bass and it's not just at one point.

No it's called software. Go back to The Breakdown thread. The vocal is mentioned people say "whats up with that" - then software analysis is posted THEN people claim the song is unlistenable... because their computer told them so.

It happens at one point where it's actually noticable. The other bits are barely audible.

The recent song HardRockLover has crackling distortion popping up in parts too.

[Go on... Hopefully you're going to tell me this is on a lead vocal because otherwise...]

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Actually it's on the guitar part. Did you notice people mentioned this as soon as they heard the song? Check about the 3:24-3:29 mark for an example of what we are talking about. Do you think the bass and drum tracks sound fine as well?

I think it sounds fine. Unless you're about to tell me that "Purple Rain" is a technically "perfect" recording (which it isn't) it doesn't matter.

["COULD BE" lost forver. But they "could be" fine. In fact the ones stored inside a bank vault likey are fine. Tapes older than Princes have survived.]

You must be SO fun to spend time or have a conversation with.....

You seem to be having fun

You exhibit all the hallmarks of a lawyer. Taking a simple matter and making it complicated. Steadfast refusal to accept logical information from others. Trying to twist the other party's words around.

I haven't twisted anything. I just like SOME form of evidence before you start running round shouting "the tapes are disintegrating WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!"

[Edited 7/27/15 11:52am]

this has turned into a ridiculous thread