Noodled24 said:

Very few people claim to have seen or been in the actual vault.

.

Pictures of it have circulated.

Noodled24 said:

IF he's not "full of it" and actually does average out a song a day, then he's got over 7000 songs just in the past 20 years alone. If only 10% of them are any good... thats still what? 70 (ten track) albums of decent material.

The numbers are in his favour.

.

And yet his output of the past 20 years is mostly forgettable and can't touch his 1980s work. So somehow he's produced a massive amount of music yet fails to release the best of it?

.

And yes, I know we've heard plenty of great 1980s outtakes that didn't get released, but those are on top of an impressive body of work.

Noodled24 said:

Very few people claim to have seen or been in the actual vault. It exists because people have talked about it, however those that have talked about it don't seem to recall it being as big as it would need to be; to hold 20 years of songs, alternate versions, demos, outtakes, rehearsals and live performances.

These days you only need a few square inches to store all of that.

alandail said:

Noodled24 said:

fbueller said:

Prince has stated there is now more than one vault. Someone (can't recall who atm) said that the last time they saw the vault at Paisley it was stuffed with shelves full of tapes and boxes stacked on the floor.

Prince himself said there is more than one vault? When was this?

I don't disagree that it must have been upgraded at some point, But I'm not sure I believe he has multiple vaults. It doesn't make sense.

Prince was asked about the vault, in an interview, and he said there's more than one vault now (implying that he ran out of space). Can't recall atm what interview this was. Might have been the radio interview he did in NYC I think around the time of the Welcome 2 America shows, or another radio interview he did around that time (in 2011?) He did several radio interviews around then.

.

Most of what Prince records today is recorded digitally. Another "vault" could theoretically be on a hard drive underneath his pillow.

alandail said:

Noodled24 said:

Very few people claim to have seen or been in the actual vault. It exists because people have talked about it, however those that have talked about it don't seem to recall it being as big as it would need to be; to hold 20 years of songs, alternate versions, demos, outtakes, rehearsals and live performances.

These days you only need a few square inches to store all of that.

.

But you'd still want to store the original tapes. Because this year's technology might be outdated and perhaps even inaccessible in five or ten years. Go ask movie archivists.

.

Plus: digital is still vulnerable.

BartVanHemelen said:

Noodled24 said:

Very few people claim to have seen or been in the actual vault.

.

Pictures of it have circulated.

I remember seeing a sketchy picture of the vault door. MTV related I think?

BartVanHemelen said:

Noodled24 said:

IF he's not "full of it" and actually does average out a song a day, then he's got over 7000 songs just in the past 20 years alone. If only 10% of them are any good... thats still what? 70 (ten track) albums of decent material.

The numbers are in his favour.

.

And yet his output of the past 20 years is mostly forgettable and can't touch his 1980s work. So somehow he's produced a massive amount of music yet fails to release the best of it?

Well, I won't disagree with that... but there is at least 10% thats genuinely good. Even if you're being cruel, at least 1 song in every 10 from the past 20 years is A-Grade material.

And yes, I know we've heard plenty of great 1980s outtakes that didn't get released, but those are on top of an impressive body of work.

Agreed. Although the Crystal Ball project(s) from the 90s would seem to indicate that he does have some immaculate copies of outtakes - so there is hope.

fbueller said:

Noodled24 said:

Prince himself said there is more than one vault? When was this?

I don't disagree that it must have been upgraded at some point, But I'm not sure I believe he has multiple vaults. It doesn't make sense.

Prince was asked about the vault, in an interview, and he said there's more than one vault now (implying that he ran out of space). Can't recall atm what interview this was. Might have been the radio interview he did in NYC I think around the time of the Welcome 2 America shows, or another radio interview he did around that time (in 2011?) He did several radio interviews around then.

.

Most of what Prince records today is recorded digitally. Another "vault" could theoretically be on a hard drive underneath his pillow.

Ah yes, that rings a bell now you mention it. I think I took that as an off hand comment about how much he records rather than an architectural statement.

I suppose it's quite possible he had a vault or some storage facility added to one of his homes. (Presumably the one he spends most time at).

Hard disks are brilliant but notoriously unreliable. Multiple backups would be required if preservation was the task.

The Crystal Ball collection was compiled around 1997. The tapes of classic outtakes are like 30+ years old now. If Prince hasn't transferred those recordings to digital it could be B-A-D. Jimmy Jam once talked about the tapes for Janet Jackson's Control had started to deteriorate (after like 10 years) and they had to "bake" the tape in an oven, in order to do a digital transfer. Prince's tapes are much older.

[Edited 7/24/15 3:26am]

fbueller said:

The Crystal Ball collection was compiled around 1997. The tapes of classic outtakes are like 30+ years old now. If Prince hasn't transferred those recordings to digital it could be B-A-D. Jimmy Jam once talked about the tapes for Janet Jackson's Control had started to deteriorate (after like 10 years) and they had to "bake" the tape in an oven, in order to do a digital transfer. Prince's tapes are much older.

Thats a fair point. But Crystal Ball was released with great sounding copies of songs. It's interesting that there wasn't a huge amount of material from the 80s. However "Crystal Ball" the song, sounds great. So some of the tapes must have been transfered.

1997 would put HM Buff in the studio with Prince? IIRC. I'm not aware of him ever giving much detail about the process used.

Possibly of more interest was the CB2 album which seemed to indicate more tracks from further back in time. So at some point someone must have done some work to bring things into the digital age.

Noodled24 said:

Thats a fair point. But Crystal Ball was released with great sounding copies of songs.

.

They were close to brickwalled. Far from great.

BartVanHemelen said:

Noodled24 said:

Thats a fair point. But Crystal Ball was released with great sounding copies of songs.

.

They were close to brickwalled. Far from great.

That was more to do with the trend for making CDs louder though?

The songs themselves sound good... as in Prince wasn't ripping songs from circulating boots and selling them. These were from the original source?

My point being, while I'm sure many songs were lost to time. The release of CB does confirm that some tapes did indeed survive.

BartVanHemelen said:

.

They were close to brickwalled. Far from great.

The mastering of Crystal Ball and The Truth is unfortunate. An album like The Truth should have been delicately mastered, with lots of dynamics.

Noodled24 said:

fbueller said:

The Crystal Ball collection was compiled around 1997. The tapes of classic outtakes are like 30+ years old now. If Prince hasn't transferred those recordings to digital it could be B-A-D. Jimmy Jam once talked about the tapes for Janet Jackson's Control had started to deteriorate (after like 10 years) and they had to "bake" the tape in an oven, in order to do a digital transfer. Prince's tapes are much older.

Thats a fair point. But Crystal Ball was released with great sounding copies of songs. It's interesting that there wasn't a huge amount of material from the 80s. However "Crystal Ball" the song, sounds great. So some of the tapes must have been transfered.

1997 would put HM Buff in the studio with Prince? IIRC. I'm not aware of him ever giving much detail about the process used.

Sure, the tapes of songs included on Crystal Ball were transfered. Those source tapes were only 10 years old at that time.

.

Buff has been quoted saying that he tried to get Prince to let him transfer his tape archive to digital. Prince wouldn't let him. Prince apparently was not concerned about the possibility of tape deterioration. At one time, when Buff was there, the basement at Paisley flooded. He said there were some tape boxes that got wet.

fbueller said:

Noodled24 said:

Thats a fair point. But Crystal Ball was released with great sounding copies of songs. It's interesting that there wasn't a huge amount of material from the 80s. However "Crystal Ball" the song, sounds great. So some of the tapes must have been transfered.

1997 would put HM Buff in the studio with Prince? IIRC. I'm not aware of him ever giving much detail about the process used.

Sure, the tapes of songs included on Crystal Ball were transfered. Those source tapes were only 10 years old at that time.

.

Buff has been quoted saying that he tried to get Prince to let him transfer his tape archive to digital. Prince wouldn't let him. Prince apparently was not concerned about the possibility of tape deterioration. At one time, when Buff was there, the basement at Paisley flooded. He said there were some tape boxes that got wet.

The tapes were 10 years old and kept in a bank vault inside PP. I think the stuff that makes it into the actual "vault" is probably preserved as well as it could be. Kept in some kind of controlled environment they aren't simply going to disintegrate. There are much older tapes that are still fine.

CB does seem to indicate some tapes were in great quality. I can't really speak to the flooding, but yeah, if there's a box of tapes laying in a cardboard box on the floor during a flood one would assume they're pretty much fucked... although not necessarily.

There was also the aborted CB2, I guess "Roadhouse Garden" stuff too - Which I think hints that Prince was actually going back to these old tapes.

Noodled24 said:

fbueller said:

Sure, the tapes of songs included on Crystal Ball were transfered. Those source tapes were only 10 years old at that time.

.

Buff has been quoted saying that he tried to get Prince to let him transfer his tape archive to digital. Prince wouldn't let him. Prince apparently was not concerned about the possibility of tape deterioration. At one time, when Buff was there, the basement at Paisley flooded. He said there were some tape boxes that got wet.

The tapes were 10 years old and kept in a bank vault inside PP. I think the stuff that makes it into the actual "vault" is probably preserved as well as it could be. Kept in some kind of controlled environment they aren't simply going to disintegrate. There are much older tapes that are still fine.

CB does seem to indicate some tapes were in great quality. I can't really speak to the flooding, but yeah, if there's a box of tapes laying in a cardboard box on the floor during a flood one would assume they're pretty much fucked... although not necessarily.

There was also the aborted CB2, I guess "Roadhouse Garden" stuff too - Which I think hints that Prince was actually going back to these old tapes.

Even in best scenario storage conditions tapes can deteroriate over time.

.

It is known that Prince has, at least, considered some old outtakes around 2009-2011. That's why we got a new recording of Extralovable and In A Large Room With No Light, for example. But maybe the original recordings aren't in good shape. Why totally re-record Extralovable when the original, basic music track is great? Maybe the tape of Extralovable has glitches and sound dropouts. Why re-record Large Room With No Light (with his band in 2009) if the original '86 recording is perfect?

.

Maybe Prince transfered some additional songs, which he teased hinted at releasing on Crystal Ball II (tracks left off of Crystal Ball I). But former engineer Buff has said Prince wouldn't let him go through and archive his tapes.

.

Considering how Prince doesn't seem to care that much about sound fidelity these days (ex. The Breakdown, clipping and crackling distortion on 3rdEyeGirl Internet-only releases) and repeated examples of his albums being mastered loudly - even if some recordings are able to be preserved, who knows what the resulting presentation might end up like.

my god ..he keeps getting asked about it..he keeps giving different answers...best was arsenio...."u would be different after u heard all that"

love2thenines2003 said:

We're talking....talking but in fact we know nothing about the preservation of old tapes from the vault!

But we do know something. Former Prince engineers from Susan Rogers to HM Buff have said nothing was being done to preserve Prince's tape archives. HM Buff left Paisley in around 2000.

.

We know some songs were transferred for the Crystal Ball collection. By the time Prince appeared to focus more on old outtakes, somewhere around 2009, the tapes would've been 25+ years old by that point.

.

It sucks to think how some of this music could be tarnished forever by various glitches and sound dropping out, due to tape deterioration.

.

And how about all of the concert video/audio tapes? How likely is it that all of that stuff has been transferred? Talk about time consuming.

As long as he has kept the lyrics and can remember how the song went, he can always go back into the studio and record it again. So to him, losing an original recording probably isnt a train smash.

Maybe the reissues are not happening because the original tapes are now unuseable. Just a thought...

Rebeljuice said:

As long as he has kept the lyrics and can remember how the song went, he can always go back into the studio and record it again. So to him, losing an original recording probably isnt a train smash.

Maybe the reissues are not happening because the original tapes are now unuseable. Just a thought...

Technically that's true. He could record new versions of songs. Except the passion and energy would be different on a new take. It's difficult to recreate magic. Exhibit 1: 1999 - The New Master.

fbueller said:

Rebeljuice said:

As long as he has kept the lyrics and can remember how the song went, he can always go back into the studio and record it again. So to him, losing an original recording probably isnt a train smash.

Maybe the reissues are not happening because the original tapes are now unuseable. Just a thought...

Technically that's true. He could record new versions of songs. Except the passion and energy would be different on a new take. It's difficult to recreate magic. Exhibit 1: 1999 - The New Master.

Agreed. But I think that if Prince wanted a 20 year old song from the vault for a new album, he would probably rerecord it anyway even if the master tapes were in pristine condition (he may do it all the time and we are none the wiser). So to him it isnt really that much of a loss to lose the original master to the ravages of time. Of course, to us it is akin to having our balls chopped off and the loss of the original recording is tantamount to treason. But to him, the difinitive and final version of any song is the released version. Any other version is a work in progress until it gets released, if it ever does. No actual need for the really old stuff in the vault as long as he remembers the song.

fbueller said:

Noodled24 said:

The tapes were 10 years old and kept in a bank vault inside PP. I think the stuff that makes it into the actual "vault" is probably preserved as well as it could be. Kept in some kind of controlled environment they aren't simply going to disintegrate. There are much older tapes that are still fine.

CB does seem to indicate some tapes were in great quality. I can't really speak to the flooding, but yeah, if there's a box of tapes laying in a cardboard box on the floor during a flood one would assume they're pretty much fucked... although not necessarily.

There was also the aborted CB2, I guess "Roadhouse Garden" stuff too - Which I think hints that Prince was actually going back to these old tapes.

Even in best scenario storage conditions tapes can deteroriate over time.

Yes, there is probability in that. But the flip side to that is tapes much older and not stored in a bank vault have lasted the test of time. There are tapes left in garages for 30 years that are still recoverable.

In most scenarios when tapes are stored in a controlled environment. They're fine.

It is known that Prince has, at least, considered some old outtakes around 2009-2011. That's why we got a new recording of Extralovable and In A Large Room With No Light, for example. But maybe the original recordings aren't in good shape. Why totally re-record Extralovable when the original, basic music track is great? Maybe the tape of Extralovable has glitches and sound dropouts. Why re-record Large Room With No Light (with his band in 2009) if the original '86 recording is perfect?

There are multiple instances of Prince pulling something from the vault re-recording it and doing whatever with it. That in itself is no reason to assume the tapes are damaged somehow.

In the case of Xtraloveable - that song was mentioned in relation to CB2. Which seems to hint at the tape being fine.

Maybe Prince transfered some additional songs, which he teased hinted at releasing on Crystal Ball II (tracks left off of Crystal Ball I). But former engineer Buff has said Prince wouldn't let him go through and archive his tapes.

Right, but you have to consider Prince's attitude at the time. He was clamping down on bootlegs and plugging the leaks at PP. Because HM Buff "wasn't allowed" to transfer stuff, doesn't mean it wasn't transferred.

It's all speculation but for Prince to go to the trouble of having a bank vault installed... that indicates some desire on his part to preserve. Also the two Crystal Ball projects seem to indicate he has gone back and pulled out songs from the past

Considering how Prince doesn't seem to care that much about sound fidelity these days (ex. The Breakdown, clipping and crackling distortion on 3rdEyeGirl Internet-only releases) and repeated examples of his albums being mastered loudly - even if some recordings are able to be preserved, who knows what the resulting presentation might end up like.

He's never really cared about sound fidelity has he? This is something fans have projected onto him. In the early days fidelity wasn't an issue because people worked with what they had. Later he recorded SOTT in a not-quite-finished studio. Then the loudness war etc.

Prince has never been an audiophile perfectionist. He favours passion or "capuring a moment even if it's flawed".

More like: 1 in 10 songs is okay.

Noodled24 said:

Well, I won't disagree with that... but there is at least 10% thats genuinely good. Even if you're being cruel, at least 1 song in every 10 from the past 20 years is A-Grade material.

But then who did the transfers? Mayte?

And clipping doesn't have anything to do with 'capturing the moment '...

Noodled24 said:

fbueller said:

Right, but you have to consider Prince's attitude at the time. He was clamping down on bootlegs and plugging the leaks at PP. Because HM Buff "wasn't allowed" to transfer stuff, doesn't mean it wasn't transferred.

Prince has never been an audiophile perfectionist. He favours passion or "capuring a moment even if it's flawed".

Pentacle said:

And clipping doesn't have anything to do with 'capturing the moment '...

He could have fixed it fairly easily, but he didn't. This has been a trend throughout his career. Or it was perhaps left in as some kind of in-joke.

[Edited 7/23/15 11:39am]

Noodled24 said:

He could have fixed it fairly easily, but he didn't. This has been a trend throughout his career. Or it was perhaps left in as some kind of in-joke.

Looking back at Prince's past work... out of all the songs/albums he did, only a few recording mistakes come immediately to mind. There's the distorting background vocals on Little Red Corvette and the often mentioned technical "mistake" on Prince's vocal for If I Was Your Girlfriend.

.

The difference back then was Prince had engineers who strived for the best results possible. Considering the working conditions (Prince working at a fast pace, staying up for 24 hours at a time, getting very little time off, etc.) Prince's engineers did an admirable job.

.

In recent years, there have been several Prince recordings that have obvious clipping, crackling distortion, etc. That isn't some in-joke... more like incompetence.

.

[There are multiple instances of Prince pulling something from the vault re-recording it and doing whatever with it. That in itself is no reason to assume the tapes are damaged somehow.

There are tapes left in garages for 30 years that are still recoverable.]

.

Why did Prince re-record Extralovable when he could have simply edited out the lyrics mentioning rape and released the original AS IS? On the new recording, Prince substituted that killer guitar riff with a weaker sounding, cheesy synthesized Rhodes keyboard part instead. Maybe the original tape for Extralovable (from what 1982)? has flaws.

.

Don't you agree there is a distinction between a particular tape that is able to be recovered (i.e. playable and transferred to digital) and a tape that is playable and has flawless sound?

.

[Right, but you have to consider Prince's attitude at the time. He was clamping down on bootlegs and plugging the leaks at PP. Because HM Buff "wasn't allowed" to transfer stuff, doesn't mean it wasn't transferred.

It's all speculation but for Prince to go to the trouble of having a bank vault installed... that indicates some desire on his part to preserve. Also the two Crystal Ball projects seem to indicate he has gone back and pulled out songs from the past]

.

HM Buff was Prince's personal recording engineer for like 5 years. By having only one person who had access, Prince was able to keep better tabs on things. Buff was the only one around in that capacity. (Doubt Prince knows how to set up a tape machine for playback, etc., which has to be done for each individual tape transfer.)

.

Prince obviously had a bank vault built to protect the tapes from fire and theft. As I previously mentioned, obviously Prince selected some songs and transferred those tapes for Crystal Ball.

fbueller said:

Noodled24 said:

He could have fixed it fairly easily, but he didn't. This has been a trend throughout his career. Or it was perhaps left in as some kind of in-joke.

Looking back at Prince's past work... out of all the songs/albums he did, only a few recording mistakes come immediately to mind. There's the distorting background vocals on Little Red Corvette and the often mentioned technical "mistake" on Prince's vocal for If I Was Your Girlfriend.

+ Forever in my life? and Ballad of DP? The ending of "Joy in Rep"... Also the violin player from some documentary who talked about wanting to do another take because she thought she could do it better, but Prince instisting he wanted the "energy" rather than a perfect take.

Then there are multiple accounts of Prince toying with songs and then letting someone else finish them, which is another story I guess.

The difference back then was Prince had engineers who strived for the best results possible. Considering the working conditions (Prince working at a fast pace, staying up for 24 hours at a time, getting very little time off, etc.) Prince's engineers did an admirable job.

I don't think there is a single account of Prince working on "a" song for a long time? He gets the idea down and moves on.

In recent years, there have been several Prince recordings that have obvious clipping, crackling distortion, etc. That isn't some in-joke... more like incompetence.

So my question is then why do you think "The Breakdown" is incompetance but "Red Corvette" was the hand of god?

[There are multiple instances of Prince pulling something from the vault re-recording it and doing whatever with it. That in itself is no reason to assume the tapes are damaged somehow.

There are tapes left in garages for 30 years that are still recoverable.]

.

Why did Prince re-record Extralovable when he could have simply edited out the lyrics mentioning rape and released the original AS IS? On the new recording, Prince substituted that killer guitar riff with a weaker sounding, cheesy synthesized Rhodes keyboard part instead. Maybe the original tape for Extralovable (from what 1982)? has flaws.

Who knows. But the fact he did re-record it is not evidence that the original tape was damaged. Is the "let's go crazy tape" damaged? Hence Prince re-releasing it as a crunchy blues number? I doubt it.

Don't you agree there is a distinction between a particular tape that is able to be recovered (i.e. playable and transferred to digital) and a tape that is playable and has flawless sound?

Yes there is a distinction. But there is also no evidence to support your theory these songs were destroyed.... In the late 90s Prince said he was going to re-record his entire catalog. Does that mean all his master tapes were destroyed? No.

[Right, but you have to consider Prince's attitude at the time. He was clamping down on bootlegs and plugging the leaks at PP. Because HM Buff "wasn't allowed" to transfer stuff, doesn't mean it wasn't transferred.

It's all speculation but for Prince to go to the trouble of having a bank vault installed... that indicates some desire on his part to preserve. Also the two Crystal Ball projects seem to indicate he has gone back and pulled out songs from the past]

.

HM Buff was Prince's personal recording engineer for like 5 years. By having only one person who had access, Prince was able to keep better tabs on things. Buff was the only one around in that capacity. (Doubt Prince knows how to set up a tape machine for playback, etc., which has to be done for each individual tape transfer.)

Just to be clear - Prince who basically lives in a recording studio and has recorded well over 5,000 songs... you're not convinced he knows how to load a tape? The guy who went home one night and came into work the next morning with the song 1999 as good as done?

Prince obviously had a bank vault built to protect the tapes from fire and theft. As I previously mentioned, obviously Prince selected some songs and transferred those tapes for Crystal Ball.

And then more again for Crystal Ball two. Because we know he tends to compile albums and listen to them himself before they get released. It seems unlikely he just wrote down the names of songs and said "this will be CB2".